<B>Hinduism is on the Decline!!! (Pls vote this Poll)

[RVR]

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Ms Happy Hindu,

There is a difference between other forward communities and brahmins in Tamilnadu.

Other forward communities are not criticised by calling their caste names.

Other forward communities manage to get back ward caste certificate since there is a backward section in each community. For example, Chettiar, Mudiliar, Pillai etc have both forward and backward sub classifications whereas there is only forward classification among brahmins.

In the present Union Government and State Government, TB community has no representation in the ministries. We have no problem. We are not at all after power. But why brahmin bashing is still not stopped?

Targeting the brahmin community in Tamilnadu for the past few decades has marginalised the community. Still the brahmin community in Tamilnadu is not united and is not helping their own brothers & sisters belonging to poorer sections within the community.

Now there is a feeling among the community that we should help each other but still it is not translated into action.

I earnestly feel that such a feeling among the community members to help each other has to develop further and ultimately action has to take place.

It is not directed against any other community also. It is just a constructive thinking to improve the community as a whole.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

RVR ji,

Ms Happy Hindu,

There is a difference between other forward communities and brahmins in Tamilnadu.

Other forward communities are not criticised by calling their caste names.

Brahmins indulged in derogatory name calling in the past based on caste. They also produced scriptural injunctions like pouring lead into a shudra's ears if he happened to hear the vedas (this is irrespective of whether or not it was physically carried out). No point overlooking all those worse case things and only blaming the current scenario.

Other forward communities manage to get back ward caste certificate since there is a backward section in each community. For example, Chettiar, Mudiliar, Pillai etc have both forward and backward sub classifications whereas there is only forward classification among brahmins.

That does not mean that all of them manage to get a backward caste certificate. For that matter, brahmins in karnataka also manage to get backward caste certificates with a bit of cheating (and i have seen one case like that myself). A malayalee friend told me recently that kerala people manage to get fake caste certificates (including SC certificates) in Karnataka by bribing (and those obtaining such certificates includes brahmins from kerala as well).

In the present Union Government and State Government, TB community has no representation in the ministries. We have no problem. We are not at all after power. But why brahmin bashing is still not stopped?

Because some brahmins have not stopped segregating. They do not like to admit non-brahmins to vedic schools and want to re-establish the jaati-dharma...please note that i did not say all brahmins are like that.

And also because other castes claim that they were not responsible in any way for creating scriptures promoting segregation and discrimination...

Targeting the brahmin community in Tamilnadu for the past few decades has marginalised the community. Still the brahmin community in Tamilnadu is not united and is not helping their own brothers & sisters belonging to poorer sections within the community.

Now there is a feeling among the community that we should help each other but still it is not translated into action.

I earnestly feel that such a feeling among the community members to help each other has to develop further and ultimately action has to take place.

It is not directed against any other community also. It is just a constructive thinking to improve the community as a whole.

Everybody is ofcourse entitled to help themselves and their own. Reaching out to the poorer sections is always very welcome.

The only thing is that brahmins do not have any right to prevent dalits from being admitted to vedapatshalas. And that in no way means that brahmins need to stop their own self-development.

All the best

The more we converse on this, the more we will go around in circles.

It wud be like me and Saptha doing the circus rounds; with Saptha representing the POVs of Shankara mutts and me representing the POVs of non-shankara matts.

There is no end to it.

But from the social POV, sir, the masses have already rejected the jaati-dharma, modernization cannot be over-turned, and methinks brahmin-bashing will continue as long as segregation by mutts continues. It will stop as modernization increases over time...

The only thing certain from now on (as it has always been) is just one thing -- change. And its obvious that the strength of the masses is growing each day...its about satyameva jayate (let truth triumph).

Best regards and bye.

 

[RVR]

Sometimes i cant help wonder where all this arguments about caste is leading to ?
Why cant we Hindus just concentrate on the inner meanings of Sanathana Dharma?
If we still want to maintain our unique diversity so be it.
Each caste or division has their role to play but at least let us foster Unity in Diversity.

Unity in diversity is the need of the hour.

Let each caste follow their core principles.

Let no caste boss over other castes.

Somehow an image has been created that Brahmins are the sole protectors of Hindu religion but I earnestly feel it is not true.

Let each caste raise its level of intellectual thinking so that over a period of time, no caste will be treated as superior to the other.

Let us all work toward that goal

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Unity in diversity is the need of the hour.

Let each caste follow their core principles.

Let no caste boss over other castes.

Somehow an image has been created that Brahmins are the sole protectors of Hindu religion but I earnestly feel it is not true.

Let each caste raise its level of intellectual thinking so that over a period of time, no caste will be treated as superior to the other.

Let us all work toward that goal

All the best

imho,

all this caste talk is just hubris

there is nothing called "core principles' of any caste..

the word 'caste' has no place in this modern world.

with time, it will be gone (whether we like it or not)..

the masses have already rejected it, as is evident from the adoption of democracy and secularism..

 

[renuka]

Core Principles are present in each human being and also at various levels in society.
The Core Principle of one individual may differ from another even if both are siblings.
Core Principles may differ from religion to religion.
The Core Principle of Sanathana Dharma is Ahimsa but not all religions believe in Ahimsa.
Core Principles also differ in various economical groups.

Democracy and Secularism does not eradicate Caste.
Best example is India itself.
Isn't India the worlds biggest Democratic and Secular Nation ?

Only Equal Vision cultivated through Education spiced with Human Values can eradicate the divisions and unequality in any society.

 

[happyhindu]

The Core Principle of Sanathana Dharma is Ahimsa but not all religions believe in Ahimsa.

Ahimsa does not mean only physical non-violence. It also means do not violate a person mentally and psychologically (by demeaning him for his birth).

I do not know if sanatana dharma is non-violent. Even in the vedic period, there was this battle of 10 kings. The stories of wars in the hinduism supposedly represent clash of cultures and values: IndiaStar: Ancient India in a New Light

So there has always been history of bloodshed.

Democracy and Secularism does not eradicate Caste.
Best example is India itself.
Isn't India the worlds biggest Democratic and Secular Nation ?

Yes you are right. Atleast it means nobody is following the jaati-by-birth system of the dharmashastras.

Only Equal Vision cultivated through Education spiced with Human Values can eradicate the divisions and unequality in any society.

As long as certain ppl in the older and younger generations exist (irrespective of caste), dunno if the idea of equal vision can be expected...

Methinks, they will be have no choice but to accept changes in the society over time..

Best wishes.

 

[anandb]

Dear Renukaji

Core Principles are present in each human being and also at various levels in society.
The Core Principle of one individual may differ from another even if both are siblings.
Core Principles may differ from religion to religion.
The Core Principle of Sanathana Dharma is Ahimsa but not all religions believe in Ahimsa.
Core Principles also differ in various economical groups.

Democracy and Secularism does not eradicate Caste.
Best example is India itself.
Isn't India the worlds biggest Democratic and Secular Nation ?

Only Equal Vision cultivated through Education spiced with Human Values can eradicate the divisions and unequality in any society.

You have put it exactly as I wanted to say it. The problem is with the human mind which has the potential to rise above all these outward symbols of division. In other words, we can shed all these symbols but still carry the divisions in our mind. How do we go about correcting these divisions in our minds? Therein lies the answer.

You hit the nail on its head when you say Education spiced with Human Values. The problem lies with our education system now. There is education no doubt but where is the human values? It shows in the light of increasing white collar crime. The system is producing a whole bunch of highly educated people with modern outlook and scientific temper but with rotten human values. A glaring example is the joke which has become the Copenhagen Climate summit (now called the anti-climate summit). A summit supposed to be reducing the carbon footprint in the world has gone on record to create the highest carbon footprint for any summit. We think that when a bunch of educated world leaders converge on a hugely important issue like climate change there will be a result. How wrong? This is what George Monbiot, a top thinker on climate change said on November 30th, a full one week before the summit. He predicted the summit to fail and one of the reasons in his words are:-

"Until there is comprehensive campaign finance reform in the United States, almost any progressive measure remains out of reach. The US Senate is one of the most corrupt institutions of any democratic nation: most of the incumbents owe their seats to massive corporate funding; in return they must deliver the political goods to their sponsors. These are hopeless conditions in which to broker an agreement which has to defeat vested interests".

So what has education achieved here? Most of the U.S. politicians have studied in reputed institutions and so are their Indian counterparts. Apparently lack of human values in education is the answer for these problems.

People who argue that we have to keep up with changing mores forget the ten Yamas and the ten Niyamas from the Vedas. The education system just touches on these but they never form the core principles of the whole system. Moreover it is the outward symbols of education, wealth, prosperity, competition, status which are emphasized upon from a young age. Intellect is ruling over intuition while in the bygone ages both were in perfect balance. What about the answering of our inner calls? All these things like democracy, secularism and abolishing castes has no meaning if the inner demons are not abolished and for that imparting core human values as advocated in our scriptures from a young age is absolutely necessary.

Apologies for going off on a tangent from the title of this thread.

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,
Agreed that Ahimsa is non violence in thought,word and deed but ahimsa does not mean we cannot protect ourselves when provoked.
Battles in the past at times were needed to uphold Dharma.

You know I feel everyone is to be blamed in this caste game and not the Brahmins alone.
Dont get me wrong I am not supporting any particular caste in this. Its just my honest opinion.
In Malaysia where i stay i have known so many Non Brahmins talk so badly and treat the so called lower caste very badly especially if the so called lower caste individual is from a lesser socioeconomic background.
I have even heard friends converse with each other that" what to do if our children marry a Dalit?"
These people who spoke this were proffesionals(Non Brahmin).

I just told them i would be glad if my son actually marries a girl in the future and not a guy.
But its this same group of people who will welcome a non indian/non hindu as their daughter or son inlaw.
That time all the caste goes out of the door.

I have witnessed non Tamilians looking down upon Tamilians also in Malaysia.
Northern Indians looking down on South Indians and the list can go on.
A Northern Indian will just call any inhabitant from the South "Madrasi".
He would not bother who is Brahmin or Non Brahmin.
A Westerner would call any South Asian coloured. He would not care if the person is a northern indian or south indian ,brahmin or non brahmin.

So everyone is to blame in this game.
Pride and Prejudice is present in almost all of us in some minor form or the other.
That is why i had stressed on equal vision cultivated through education spiced with human values.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,
Agreed that Ahimsa is non violence in thought,word and deed but ahimsa does not mean we cannot protect ourselves when provoked.
Battles in the past at times were needed to uphold Dharma.

You know I feel everyone is to be blamed in this caste game and not the Brahmins alone.
Dont get me wrong I am not supporting anyone caste in this. its just my honest opinion.
In Malaysia where i stay i have known so many Non Brahmin caste talk so badly and treat the so called lower caste very badly especially if the lower caste individual is from a lesser socioeconomic background.
I have even heard friends converse with each other that" what to do if our children marry a Dalit?"
These people who spoke this were proffesionals(Non Brahmin).
I just told them i would be glad if my son actually marries a girl in the future and not a guy.
But its this same group of people who will welcome a non indian/non hindu as their daughter or son inlaw.
That time all the caste goes out of the door.

I have witness non Tamilians looking down upon Tamilians also in Malaysia.
Northern Indians looking down on South Indians and the list can go on.
A northern Indian will just call any inhabitant from the South "Madrasi".
he would not bother who is Brahmin or Non Brahmin.
A Westerner would call any South Asian coloured. He would not care if the person is a northern indian or south indian ,brahmin or non brahmin.

So everyone is too balme in theis game.
Pride and Prejudice is present in almost all of us in some minor form or the other.
that is why i had stressed on equal vision cultivated through education spiced with human values.

Dear Renuka,

Yes you are absolutely right.

Its the game of pride and prejudice lurking somewhere in the mind...

Am much aware of all that you have written..and about how at each stage of the caste hierarchy this prejudice mindset is present...

No matter if a dalit converts to any religion, i am of opinion that unless his religion of origin (hinduism) treats him well, he will continue to be treated shabbily, no matter where he goes...

And unless there is addressal for all the negativities propagated by the scriptures, sections of societies will continue to remain divided -- its impossible to speak of unity in diversity in such a case..

While many ancient socieites were divided based on occupations, only hinduism has the dubious distinction of creating and enforcing segregation based on "spiritual" grounds.

While such "spiritual" grounds were supposedly produced by the brahmins, every community went about it, to achieve it at every level...

Brahmins supposedly gave kshatriya status to those who pleased them (the biggest joke was abt brahmins trying to convert british to kshatriyas in the colonial period).

Some perpetuate violence to this day in the old mold of keeping dharmashastra based segregations alive, as though that will admit them to the kshatriya rank in this day and age..its a shame really...and i do not know how some people can justify the jaati dharma (nope i don't call it varna dharma)...

Am not interested in piling my hindu beliefs on the younger lot...All i have told my kid is all religions have good things to offer, just follow your heart and pray as you wish; and if you think there is God, seek that out...

i cannot be bothered abt who the younger lot marries as long as that person is healthy, has good character, and makes a decent living....

I just read the post by Anand on human values. I really don't know what to say. Well its kaliyuga and we are supposed to expect false miracles, false godmen, false beliefs...

As devotees we hold much to the heart and hope that the ones we look upon as gurus and gods are guiding us on the right path...what happens when truth fails..

For the likes of those who make so many varna claims, am really taken aback...some even claim that smarthas as brahmins are an ancient community and so on...

i cannot think of going into their origin details in terms of mutt-affiliation, but these are open links on the web, that many might have already read by now: Controversies in History: Myths of Kanchi kamakoti Peetam , Real history of the Kanchi math (Re: Former President Inaugurates...) Celebrations , Kanchi mutt and Dabbler: The extraordinary tale of Kanchi Mutt

What does one do, in an age of social strife, discordant beliefs, false claims, political problems, economic competition, and so on...

i dunno if this was really told by Krishna, but i'd like to follow it "sarvana dharman parityajya....mokshaisyami ma suchah".

Sarvam Krishnarpanam...

Best regards and best wishes.

If you wish, we can communitcate over email. I will not be logging onto the forum from tomorrow.

All the best.

 

[anandb]

Dear HH

If you wish, we can communitcate over email. I will not be logging onto the forum from tomorrow.

All the best.

What??? Are you saying you are quitting the forum? Hope everything is all right? May be I have misunderstood your words. Most of the times we have been on opposite ends of the spectrum but your inputs are quite valuable.

 

[happyhindu]

What??? Are you saying you are quitting the forum? Hope everything is all right? May be I have misunderstood your words. Most of the times we have been on opposite ends of the spectrum but your inputs are quite valuable.

no anand am only taking a break.

all this caste rubbish has really created unrest in me.

need time off to shake it off...wish to go back to the meditation practice and to being my old self..

will be back when am ok.

best regards and god bless.

 

[anandb]

I can relate to that, HH. All the best and hope to see you soon.

Regards