Bhagwadgita

[S Raghavan]

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In chapter 7 Lord Krishna says " Pray and think of me alone. Praying to other demi God's will not give you the expected results. Pray to me and I will give you the benefits". This is wrongly interpreted by Iskon as Lord Krishna asking devotees to pray only to him and not to any other gods. I am somewhat uncomfortable by such interpretations. As Hindus we pray to so many Gods and we consider God as only one whether Vishnu, Ganesha, Shiva, Goddesses etc. I am looking for a clarification on this matter.

 

[subramanian_muthukrishnan]

it is very complicated to understand to me atleast , they say krishna is the biggest god, but also krishna is a avatar of vishnu , but they say there are different types of vishnu's originate from main god krishna , and in this , creation of multi-verse , krishna takes avatars of himself, i don't know if i understand it correctly , or i mis understood some of the points , but i think we should see pratical implications of every religion and sects , and if it serves the society and not harming it any way , so therefore we should accept it whether or not they differ from our concepts and opinions , like for example if there is a atheist scientist , but if he working and researching for covid vaccine for the benefit of whole humanity , then we should appreciate him, regardless of his personal believe in god . this is my opinions , if you have something to say about it , most welcomed.

 

[prasad1]

We are talking about unknowable, and we are just postulating. This is my explanation.

Krishna of Bhagrvat Gita is a metaphor for a realized soul, or Parmatma. This is not the Krishna of Bhagavatam or ISKON.

That Krishna is different from Murlidhar Krishna, Vasudeva Krishna, Gopal Krishna etc.
When Krishna says 'HE' in Gita that is the Brahman of Advaita Philosophy (may also include other schools).
The Human form Krishna is ascribed much contradiction, and many bad motive, personal and social failings.
Brahman can not be ascribed in that way.

It is like a Gold bangle saying that it alone is gold, and a gold ring or a gold chain is not gold.
Gold is the substratum and can assume multiple forms and shapes. Similarly, Brahman is the substratum, and we superimpose any form on it.

In Gita chapter-2 Verse 20 Krishna says:

na jaayate mriyate vaa kadaachinnaayam bhootvaa bhavitaa vaa na bhooyaha |
ajo nityaha shaashvatoyam puraano na hanyate hanyamaane shareere || 20 ||

It (the eternal essence) is neither born nor does it ever die; nor is it that having come into existence, it will again cease to exist. It is birthless, eternal, changeless, and primeval, it is not slain when the body is killed.

This shloka reinforces the attributes of the eternal essence that we have seen so far, that it is eternal and changeless. Any material object, including the human body, goes through six types of modifications: birth, exist, change, grow, decay, and perish. The eternal essence is beyond all these modifications, hence it is changeless.

Two additional qualities of the eternal essence are provided here. The first is that it is birthless. It is logical that it should be birthless, otherwise it could not be eternal and timeless. And since it is birthless, it would have always existed, therefore it is primeval.

So obviously Krishna is not preaching that He is the greatest.

Krishna has used the word “ayam” in this previous shloka referring to self-evident Atma. Atma is self-evident (svatah siddah). How? Whenever I am making the statements as I am tall, I am hungry, I am happy, I have done it and I am receiving it, the phrase “I am” refers to the self evident Atma. Each of the references we make as “tall”, “hungry”, happy”, “have done it”, and “receiving it” denote the layers we have put onto ourselves.

We are that self evident Atma, which is described here as Changeless (Nithyah). Atma not being an object is not subject to any modification and hence is changeless. Atma is all pervading (sarvagatah). Technically if we look at this, we should say, that Atma is location less. All pervading is not the correct representation. Why it is location less, because if it can be located, then it is bound by time and space. As we have seen, that Atma is not bound by time (Kaala Athiitah) and is not bound by space (Desha Athiitah), it is location less and hence it is sarvagatah.


This is my reading of Gita and its essence.

 

[renuka]

In chapter 7 Lord Krishna says " Pray and think of me alone. Praying to other demi God's will not give you the expected results. Pray to me and I will give you the benefits". This is wrongly interpreted by Iskon as Lord Krishna asking devotees to pray only to him and not to any other gods. I am somewhat uncomfortable by such interpretations. As Hindus we pray to so many Gods and we consider God as only one whether Vishnu, Ganesha, Shiva, Goddesses etc. I am looking for a clarification on this matter.

Let me try to give my perspective here.
Though I am not an expert this is how I view this statement.

Honestly Shree Krishna was not talking about His form as Krishna but He was talking about the concept of surrender to the Parabrahman and since He was the Avatar at that era He spoke in 1st person since He is Saguna Brahman Here.

So why does Krishna say to worship the Supreme and not devas(demi gods)?

Mainly because people pray to deities for material gain or release from suffering thinking that Karma can be deleted.

Honestly Karma like energy can NOT be destroyed by just mere prayer..cos we earned that Karma, good or bad it would have it effects on us and we inherit a Karmic QR code which astrology interprets as the effects of planets on us.

We enjoy the fruits of our good Karma and do not intend ever to deprive ourselves from the good but we all want to run from suffering the effects of our past bad karma.

Reason? cos the human mind and body isn't really designed to be constantly in suffering and the reverse is also true..that is we are not designed to be constantly in pleasure too.

So what is the use of all Karma and praying?

Well, the effects of Karma is to ignite in us the thought that "we are in this endless cycle of pain and pleasure and the polar opposites and how do I get out of this cycle"
This is where one takes steps to reform one's mind and body as to attain the state of balance where one can handle polar opposites alike as in the Gita :

sukha-duḥkhe same kṛitvā lābhālābhau jayājayau.

'treating alike happiness and distress, loss and gain, victory and defeat'

Now, what about deity worship?
Well, the deities are demi-god in the sense that they do not have independent autonomy but merely vehicles to transmit some form of Prana to us through prayer.
They function in a limited fashion.
The fructifying material gain by worshipping too is none but our own good karma which had started to fructify with time...some do pariharams for years and then see results..this is just our own past good karma kicking in.


But we are made to believe that worshipping deities give a quick fix and we humans do not go beyond the transactional form of prayer and we never reflect and make reforms and there isnt a scope for attainment of atma jnaana here.

Hence Krishna says:

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Abandon all varieties of Dharma and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.


Ok, what does this mean?
We just surrender and all our sins are erased?

Well, not really!
When we surrender, we have taken the pledge to accept both good and bad as the our Karma and we depend on the God as a mental support(though He is always a witness) to handle both the good and bad alike.

We would still go through all the phases of pain and pleasure but we would be able to sail through both without being dragged down by the bad or without being euphoric of the good...in other words we do not let the scales of our mind to tilt with a Richter 10 when faced with ups and downs in life.

This is when we reach a state of realization that we need to reform and modify ourselves as to not be in this vicious cycle of Karma and make steps to work our way with the spirit of surrender.
Once this is realized all our Karmic seeds have been used up and burnt up and will not record new Karmas of anykind and hence we are delivered from sin as Krishna said
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Summary:

There is no quick fix.
Surrender isnt just calling Narayana and you can do as you please and still claim that God saves you.
Nope!

So does Narayana come when called?
Surely He does!
But what does He tell us?
Well, He hands us standard operating procedures to follow to be able to escape the Karmic cycles....and its all our hard effort to gain atma jnaana, hence:

śhraddhāvān labhate jñānaṁ tat-paraḥ sanyatendriyaḥ
jñānaṁ labdhvā parāṁ śhāntim achireṇādhigachchhati

Those whose faith is deep and who have practiced controlling their mind and senses attain divine knowledge. Through such transcendental knowledge, they quickly attain everlasting supreme peace.



The most important question of all.
So is the Supreme only one form of God?
Nope!
The form does not really count.
Its the thought that counts.
Even if one is praying to a stone or a tree but has the mindset to transform and turn inward for atma jnaana verily that form stone or tree stands for Supreme too.

So can one accept the deity form as Supreme too?
Yes! provided we do not think of gaining material favors and also surrender and transform ourselves.

But if we keep thinking we can gain favors..then we are never out of the cycle of Karma.

So what is the Supreme form?
Krishna alone?
No.
Its our mind that needs to transform holding ANY form as the Supreme as long we surrender..hence Krishna does say :

uddhared ātmanātmānaṁ nātmānam avasādayet
ātmaiva hyātmano bandhur ātmaiva ripur ātmanaḥ

BG 6.5: Elevate yourself through the power of your mind, and not degrade yourself, for the mind can be the friend and also the enemy of the self.


Its a bit of an eye opener that God actually guides us with our own self effort and no favors nor bribing prayers.

Last but not least ...many who feel they worship Supreme forms like Vishnu or Krishna are just deifying Vishnu and Krishna and made them their material desire givers too.

So if ISCKON claims that everyone in ISCKON is in a state of surrender..the answer is no.
They just made Krishna their deity to fulfill their wishes in the same manner another may offer prayers to a demi god.

 

[S Raghavan]

We are talking about unknowable, and we are just postulating. This is my explanation.

Krishna of Bhagrvat Gita is a metaphor for a realized soul, or Parmatma. This is not the Krishna of Bhagavatam or ISKON.

That Krishna is different from Murlidhar Krishna, Vasudeva Krishna, Gopal Krishna etc.
When Krishna says 'HE' in Gita that is the Brahman of Advaita Philosophy (may also include other schools).
The Human form Krishna is ascribed much contradiction, and many bad motive, personal and social failings.
Brahman can not be ascribed in that way.

It is like a Gold bangle saying that it alone is gold, and a gold ring or a gold chain is not gold.
Gold is the substratum and can assume multiple forms and shapes. Similarly, Brahman is the substratum, and we superimpose any form on it.

In Gita chapter-2 Verse 20 Krishna says:

na jaayate mriyate vaa kadaachinnaayam bhootvaa bhavitaa vaa na bhooyaha |
ajo nityaha shaashvatoyam puraano na hanyate hanyamaane shareere || 20 ||

It (the eternal essence) is neither born nor does it ever die; nor is it that having come into existence, it will again cease to exist. It is birthless, eternal, changeless, and primeval, it is not slain when the body is killed.

This shloka reinforces the attributes of the eternal essence that we have seen so far, that it is eternal and changeless. Any material object, including the human body, goes through six types of modifications: birth, exist, change, grow, decay, and perish. The eternal essence is beyond all these modifications, hence it is changeless.

Two additional qualities of the eternal essence are provided here. The first is that it is birthless. It is logical that it should be birthless, otherwise it could not be eternal and timeless. And since it is birthless, it would have always existed, therefore it is primeval.

So obviously Krishna is not preaching that He is the greatest.

Krishna has used the word “ayam” in this previous shloka referring to self-evident Atma. Atma is self-evident (svatah siddah). How? Whenever I am making the statements as I am tall, I am hungry, I am happy, I have done it and I am receiving it, the phrase “I am” refers to the self evident Atma. Each of the references we make as “tall”, “hungry”, happy”, “have done it”, and “receiving it” denote the layers we have put onto ourselves.

We are that self evident Atma, which is described here as Changeless (Nithyah). Atma not being an object is not subject to any modification and hence is changeless. Atma is all pervading (sarvagatah). Technically if we look at this, we should say, that Atma is location less. All pervading is not the correct representation. Why it is location less, because if it can be located, then it is bound by time and space. As we have seen, that Atma is not bound by time (Kaala Athiitah) and is not bound by space (Desha Athiitah), it is location less and hence it is sarvagatah.


This is my reading of Gita and its essence.

Thank you for your interpretation. Certainly Gita is very difficult to understand. Only multiple readings of different authors will help to understand better. Krishna also says in chapter 9 that you may pray to any God of your choice but offer everything to me. It may be just a flower,, leaf, fruit or even plain water with devotion and I will accept. All offerings should be towards me.

 

[S Raghavan]

Let me try to give my perspective here.
Though I am not an expert this is how I view this statement.

Honestly Shree Krishna was not talking about His form as Krishna but He was talking about the concept of surrender to the Parabrahman and since He was the Avatar at that era He spoke in 1st person since He is Saguna Brahman Here.

So why does Krishna say to worship the Supreme and not devas(demi gods)?

Mainly because people pray to deities for material gain or release from suffering thinking that Karma can be deleted.

Honestly Karma like energy can NOT be destroyed by just mere prayer..cos we earned that Karma, good or bad it would have it effects on us and we inherit a Karmic QR code which astrology interprets as the effects of planets on us.

We enjoy the fruits of our good Karma and do not intend ever to deprive ourselves from the good but we all want to run from suffering the effects of our past bad karma.

Reason? cos the human mind and body isn't really designed to be constantly in suffering and the reverse is also true..that is we are not designed to be constantly in pleasure too.

So what is the use of all Karma and praying?

Well, the effects of Karma is to ignite in us the thought that "we are in this endless cycle of pain and pleasure and the polar opposites and how do I get out of this cycle"
This is where one takes steps to reform one's mind and body as to attain the state of balance where one can handle polar opposites alike as in the Gita :

sukha-duḥkhe same kṛitvā lābhālābhau jayājayau.

'treating alike happiness and distress, loss and gain, victory and defeat'

Now, what about deity worship?
Well, the deities are demi-god in the sense that they do not have independent autonomy but merely vehicles to transmit some form of Prana to us through prayer.
They function in a limited fashion.
The fructifying material gain by worshipping too is none but our own good karma which had started to fructify with time...some do pariharams for years and then see results..this is just our own past good karma kicking in.


But we are made to believe that worshipping deities give a quick fix and we humans do not go beyond the transactional form of prayer and we never reflect and make reforms and there isnt a scope for attainment of atma jnaana here.

Hence Krishna says:

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Abandon all varieties of Dharma and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.


Ok, what does this mean?
We just surrender and all our sins are erased?

Well, not really!
When we surrender, we have taken the pledge to accept both good and bad as the our Karma and we depend on the God as a mental support(though He is always a witness) to handle both the good and bad alike.

We would still go through all the phases of pain and pleasure but we would be able to sail through both without being dragged down by the bad or without being euphoric of the good...in other words we do not let the scales of our mind to tilt with a Richter 10 when faced with ups and downs in life.

This is when we reach a state of realization that we need to reform and modify ourselves as to not be in this vicious cycle of Karma and make steps to work our way with the spirit of surrender.
Once this is realized all our Karmic seeds have been used up and burnt up and will not record new Karmas of anykind and hence we are delivered from sin as Krishna said
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Summary:

There is no quick fix.
Surrender isnt just calling Narayana and you can do as you please and still claim that God saves you.
Nope!

So does Narayana come when called?
Surely He does!
But what does He tell us?
Well, He hands us standard operating procedures to follow to be able to escape the Karmic cycles....and its all our hard effort to gain atma jnaana, hence:

śhraddhāvān labhate jñānaṁ tat-paraḥ sanyatendriyaḥ
jñānaṁ labdhvā parāṁ śhāntim achireṇādhigachchhati

Those whose faith is deep and who have practiced controlling their mind and senses attain divine knowledge. Through such transcendental knowledge, they quickly attain everlasting supreme peace.



The most important question of all.
So is the Supreme only one form of God?
Nope!
The form does not really count.
Its the thought that counts.
Even if one is praying to a stone or a tree but has the mindset to transform and turn inward for atma jnaana verily that form stone or tree stands for Supreme too.

So can one accept the deity form as Supreme too?
Yes! provided we do not think of gaining material favors and also surrender and transform ourselves.

But if we keep thinking we can gain favors..then we are never out of the cycle of Karma.

So what is the Supreme form?
Krishna alone?
No.
Its our mind that needs to transform holding ANY form as the Supreme as long we surrender..hence Krishna does say :

uddhared ātmanātmānaṁ nātmānam avasādayet
ātmaiva hyātmano bandhur ātmaiva ripur ātmanaḥ

BG 6.5: Elevate yourself through the power of your mind, and not degrade yourself, for the mind can be the friend and also the enemy of the self.


Its a bit of an eye opener that God actually guides us with our own self effort and no favors nor bribing prayers.

Last but not least ...many who feel they worship Supreme forms like Vishnu or Krishna are just deifying Vishnu and Krishna and made them their material desire givers too.

So if ISCKON claims that everyone in ISCKON is in a state of surrender..the answer is no.
They just made Krishna their deity to fulfill their wishes in the same manner another may offer prayers to a demi god.

Thank you very much sir for you excellent explanation. You reply did clarify my doubt. Gita is certainly very complicated and difficult to understand and requires repeated reading and discussions. Each reading gives more and more information.

 

[renuka]

Thank you very much sir for you excellent explanation. You reply did clarify my doubt. Gita is certainly very complicated and difficult to understand and requires repeated reading and discussions. Each reading gives more and more information.

Dear Sir...I am a female..name is Renuka.

From my personal experience the Gita needs repeated readings and each time the verses might seem different.

I have come to understand that The Gita actually " reads" us...we dont really " read" it.
It unfolds to us what we needs for the moment and the very same verse might unfold differently when we read it after a few years.

So best is we dont rigidly fix our views on any one swamiji's interpretation..read different interpretations too..it gives us a broader perspective ..then with all the effort we put..The Gita itself would start unfolding to us in a very personalized format.

 

[tbs]

it is very complicated to understand to me atleast , they say krishna is the biggest god, but also krishna is a avatar of vishnu , but they say there are different types of vishnu's originate from main god krishna , and in this , creation of multi-verse , krishna takes avatars of himself, i don't know if i understand it correctly , or i mis understood some of the points , but i think we should see pratical implications of every religion and sects , and if it serves the society and not harming it any way , so therefore we should accept it whether or not they differ from our concepts and opinions , like for example if there is a atheist scientist , but if he working and researching for covid vaccine for the benefit of whole humanity , then we should appreciate him, regardless of his personal believe in god . this is my opinions , if you have something to say about it , most welcomed.

hi

i read bhagavad gita translation by sri prabhupada...i have copies too...published by ISCKON... they

other gods are called DEMI GODS....even some of the translations based on vaishnavite/gouda padha

sampradaya....but best selling english translations in the world...

 

[a-TB]

We are talking about unknowable, and we are just postulating. This is my explanation.

Krishna of Bhagrvat Gita is a metaphor for a realized soul, or Parmatma. This is not the Krishna of Bhagavatam or ISKON.

That Krishna is different from Murlidhar Krishna, Vasudeva Krishna, Gopal Krishna etc.
When Krishna says 'HE' in Gita that is the Brahman of Advaita Philosophy (may also include other schools).
The Human form Krishna is ascribed much contradiction, and many bad motive, personal and social failings.
Brahman can not be ascribed in that way.

It is like a Gold bangle saying that it alone is gold, and a gold ring or a gold chain is not gold.
Gold is the substratum and can assume multiple forms and shapes. Similarly, Brahman is the substratum, and we superimpose any form on it.

In Gita chapter-2 Verse 20 Krishna says:

na jaayate mriyate vaa kadaachinnaayam bhootvaa bhavitaa vaa na bhooyaha |
ajo nityaha shaashvatoyam puraano na hanyate hanyamaane shareere || 20 ||

It (the eternal essence) is neither born nor does it ever die; nor is it that having come into existence, it will again cease to exist. It is birthless, eternal, changeless, and primeval, it is not slain when the body is killed.

This shloka reinforces the attributes of the eternal essence that we have seen so far, that it is eternal and changeless. Any material object, including the human body, goes through six types of modifications: birth, exist, change, grow, decay, and perish. The eternal essence is beyond all these modifications, hence it is changeless.

Two additional qualities of the eternal essence are provided here. The first is that it is birthless. It is logical that it should be birthless, otherwise it could not be eternal and timeless. And since it is birthless, it would have always existed, therefore it is primeval.

So obviously Krishna is not preaching that He is the greatest.

Krishna has used the word “ayam” in this previous shloka referring to self-evident Atma. Atma is self-evident (svatah siddah). How? Whenever I am making the statements as I am tall, I am hungry, I am happy, I have done it and I am receiving it, the phrase “I am” refers to the self evident Atma. Each of the references we make as “tall”, “hungry”, happy”, “have done it”, and “receiving it” denote the layers we have put onto ourselves.

We are that self evident Atma, which is described here as Changeless (Nithyah). Atma not being an object is not subject to any modification and hence is changeless. Atma is all pervading (sarvagatah). Technically if we look at this, we should say, that Atma is location less. All pervading is not the correct representation. Why it is location less, because if it can be located, then it is bound by time and space. As we have seen, that Atma is not bound by time (Kaala Athiitah) and is not bound by space (Desha Athiitah), it is location less and hence it is sarvagatah.


This is my reading of Gita and its essence.

Best explanation I have seen in the thread