Bhakti as a concept in Hinduism is foreign influence.

[renuka]

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today bhakthi means (there are exceptions i am sure)

---- there is a god out there listening to all the pleas and act on it. So i want this, i want that - so i do this puja, i do this offering from my loots and god give me what i want

-----or oh god i am worried, listen to my plight and do something .. I get emotional and say i surrender.. Then i get up and insult people on my way out

---- or god is a concept in my mind i discovered one day while i was a communist. I have since then fallen in love with this idol. I love him and he takes care of me. While saying this i have the most prejudicial view of others feeling superior about my own birth/genes


-----or do all kinds of superstitious things in the name of god due to fear, give money and share money earned in a corrupt manner at a temple. It is all about transactions with god

i think shankaracharya would not subscribe to this as bhakthi.

lol!

 

[KRN]

I hope the pictures of pages your posted are not the citations. I was hoping for actual commentary in Sanskrit, your translation and your interpretations. If that is not coming it is a let down I am afraid

Do you know what a citation is?

A citation is a reference to a published or unpublished source. More precisely, a citation is an abbreviated alphanumeric expression embedded in the body of an intellectual work that denotes an entry in the bibliographic references section of the work for the purpose of acknowledging the relevance of the works of others to the topic of discussion at the spot where the citation appears. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A person interested in finding out the truth of the matter, can make a note of the slokas given in the pictures I posted, which should suffice for reference. Then they can peruse any available copy of the Gita bhashyam, in original or translation, and satisfy themselves. If they know Sanskrit or Hindi, all the required details are there in the pictures.

You may ask your expert friends to translate and interpret the slokas for you. And don't forget to return to this forum and state your conclusions. And you or your friends need to come here and state whether you have any references from the Bhashyam for refuting my statements. If you are not going to do that, it is a let down I am afraid.

 

[KRN]

A Request For All.

The topic of this thread is "Bhakti as a concept in Hinduism is foreign influence" and the thread opener quoted from
http://www.advaita-vision.org/bhakti-in-advaita/

There was a preposterous claim "Historically speaking, Bhakti as a cult took root in India after the Muslim invasions".

This claim, from a website ostensibly supporting Advaita Vedanta, is fallacious due to many reasons, a few of which I had mentioned in my initial response. All historical evidence point to Bhakti dating long back in antiquity, perhaps as old as the Upanishads.

The spiritual leader of Advaita, Shankaracharya himself was a bhakta, and it is obvious that he lived several centuries before the Muslim invasions. For a detailed discussion on the date of Sankara, considering various theories and historical aspects, the book "Life And Thought Of Sankaracharya" by GC Pande may be referred.

When I took up this fact in discussion, that Sankara himself was a bhakta, I noticed that it is not readily accepted here.

That was why I issued a rhetorical challenge to discuss certain statements related to this matter. My aim thereby was to show, using the example of Sankaracharya, that the topic of this thread (Bhakti as a concept in Hinduism is foreign influence) is baseless. I hope that my messages helped at least a few readers gain more awareness on Sankaracharya.

I am part of a non-profit organisation that has been collecting, verifying and translating the works authored or attributed to Sankaracharya and getting them published together. The Vani Vilas Press from Srirangam had done a similar job in the past. But many manuscripts of works attributed to Sankaracharya were unearthed afterwards, and their verification and translation to English is still in progress.

So the work is still going on. At present, we are a little short of funds. Anyone from the readers interested in supporting this nonprofit venture, may PM me for the details.

 

[KRN]

Sex of one man with many women is beautiful? Rasalila is about one Krishna and many Gopis? Not seeing this as anything degrading. I would love to be like Sri Krishna too

From where did you get the idea that rasalila is 'sex' of Krishna with Gopis? Is it written anywhere in the Bhagavatham or other Puranas? Pls give citations.

 

[Vaagmi]

What do you really mean by "Bhakthi of Sankaracharya"?.......
Do you know what a citation is?........
Where did you see Bhakti practised in this way............
From where did you get the idea that rasalila is 'sex' of Krishna with Gopis?.........

Dear Sri KRN,

I appreciate your patience with even "enfants terribles".
These kids are on an altogether different plane. Pulling legs is the only game they indulge in. They make no effort to think or search and find any thing. I am sure you will reach exasperation soon. I have given up long back.

 

[KRN]

Dear Sri KRN,

I appreciate your patience with even "enfants terribles".
These kids are on an altogether different plane. Pulling legs is the only game they indulge in. They make no effort to think or search and find any thing. I am sure you will reach exasperation soon. I have given up long back.

You are right But it's all part of the game I suppose

https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=36012

 

[prasad1]

I already explained , worth repeating.

If you put forth a point then you must provide references and citations in a clearly understandable way. Then make your case. If you say there is a white elephant in another planet and humans with tails fly there, you cannot say -"OK, I have stated my views, anyone wanting to refute must provide proof. I am ready to debate " That will be absurd.

If you dont want to cite, explain and make your case, that is fine. Throwing some photos of pages and that too in Hindi is not useful for me or for many people.

I have not read your previous posts because you became active very recently. I have no opinion about you other than what I read here. I only see in this thread a lot of buzz words, internal inconsistencies in claims and refusal to present a cogent case for your thesis.

If you want to debate you should present your case as if anyone expert or otherwise can comment. I was only telling you that your time spent in making your case will not go waste because I can get independent validation of your claims. You dont have to accept this challenge

It is only words. How is that different from the words of Bible or Koran? That too is words.

Words can be written in the name of any person or inanimate objects.
I do not have any reverence for words.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sri KRN,

I appreciate your patience with even "enfants terribles".
These kids are on an altogether different plane. Pulling legs is the only game they indulge in. They make no effort to think or search and find any thing. I am sure you will reach exasperation soon. I have given up long back.

As usual a childish comment of a fully grown physical person, alas the mind did not keep pace with the physical growth. There is no need for your insults.

 

[prasad1]

You are right But it's all part of the game I suppose

https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=36012

I suppose Praveenji's post applies to all.

 

[Vaagmi]

As usual a childish comment of a fully grown physical person, alas the mind did not keep pace with the physical growth. There is no need for your insults.

"Childish comment" is perhaps a tribute you pay to people here. You have a tendency to sit in judgement of all here. That is why I always tells myself "here comes our Vadivelu. Let us see what he is up to" whenever I see a post from you.
Friend. Cool down. I did not say anything about you and yet you come here with this "childish....". What is wrong with you. You owe an explanation to me, to other decent members here and to the admin. Let us see what you have to say. Come on.

 

[zebra16]

Apropos to nothing, I would like to add my tit-bits to the interested readers, not referring to any particular post. The only purpose of my little posts is to relieve the readers the trouble of going in search of source materials.

Bhakti as practiced by most Hindus is to submit to the will of the Almighty either by supplication/submission or surrender. The foremost attitude of one submitting to another is that of bowing one's head in reverence. Then elongated form of bowing one's head is namaskAram and SAstAnga namaskAram and the words most commonly used word while performing the deed is to utter namaH.

To say that Bhakti is an import after Islam is about not knowing what our vedAs say.

Ready reference : Sri Rudram, which is contained in both yajurvedAs (Sukla and krSna) starts with salutation or head bowing.
Taittiriya samhita 4.9 invoking Rudra starts with "Om namO Bhagavate RudrAyA, namaH te astu Rudra manya va utO ta iSave namaH.

Even taking the latest very conservative estimates, the taittiriya samhitA was composed around 1500 BC which should place it two millenia before birth of islam.

 

[KRN]

Ready reference : Sri Rudram...

Yes, I am corrected Sir. Bhakti is indeed as old as the Vedas...

 

[zebra16]

There is also some discussion about what Sankara meant by Bhakti and whether we are practicing superstition in the name of Bhakti and how far have we moved from Adi Sankara's notions of Bhakti.

Soundarya Lahari attributed to Adi Sankara by tradition (some dispute SL to be the work of Adi Sankara) but all Sankara MaThas are unanimous in their opinion that SL is the work of Adi Sankara.

Sloka 27 of SL reads:

Japo jalpah shilpam sakalam api mudra-virachana
Gatih pradakshinya-kramanam ashanadya-ahuti-vidhih |
Pranamah samveshah sukham akhilam atmarpana-drisha
Saparya-paryayastava bhavatu yan me vilasitam ||

Summarized it means that: Let any prattle by me be construed as your stuti; let any manual work being done by me be construed as "mudra", let my to and fro movements be construed as doing circumambulation or pradakshiNam, let my act of eating food to satisfy my hunger be construed as offering holy oblations in the ritual homam/havan fire; my lying down (for rest/sleep) be construed as performing namaskAram and attending to my body comforts be construed as my worship to you.

Going by this slOka, Adi Sankara was not too hard on Bhaktas doing Bhakti in any form they felt like.

No discussion on Bhakti in Hinduism will be complete without one going through Narada Bhakti Sutras and per those SutrAs just about anything goes under Bhakti so long as one is convinced in his mind that he is doing a particular thing or deed as an offering to his chosen Almighty.

 

[a-TB]

From where did you get the idea that rasalila is 'sex' of Krishna with Gopis? Is it written anywhere in the Bhagavatham or other Puranas? Pls give citations.

The topic of sex was not introduced in this thread by me but by you know who,
I only stated a popular view and have no supporting details for that view. I do not think sex to be a crime or unusual human act provided no one is hurt. It is no different than satisfying other human needs be it physical or emotional. The key is not to cause hurt. Do you have any references why sex is excluded in rasalila?

 

[a-TB]

It is only words. How is that different from the words of Bible or Koran? That too is words.

Words can be written in the name of any person or inanimate objects.
I do not have any reverence for words.

Dear Mr Prasad:

Yes, it is all play of words. I think the word Bhakthi is understood differently by many. So far nothing profound has been said by anyone here in this thread (except some statement that can make one think here and there) . It is fine actually - there is fun discussing about provided we do not have people like Mr Munz starting an attack with immature statements

 

[a-TB]

"Childish comment" is perhaps a tribute you pay to people here. You have a tendency to sit in judgement of all here. That is why I always tells myself "here comes our Vadivelu. Let us see what he is up to" whenever I see a post from you.
Friend. Cool down. I did not say anything about you and yet you come here with this "childish....". What is wrong with you. You owe an explanation to me, to other decent members here and to the admin. Let us see what you have to say. Come on.

Dear Mr M. Vaagmi:

Where do you get this urge to attack others, and degenerate all good discussions? It is fine if you believe you have satvic brahmin genes but your comments do not show that you have inherited those. Please get back to the topic. Yes we are prepared to hear your story about how you become a Bhaktha again instead of your comments here

 

[a-TB]

Yes, I am corrected Sir. Bhakti is indeed as old as the Vedas...

But the meaning, beliefs and practices around the word Bhakthi has evolved

 

[a-TB]

A Request For All.

The topic of this thread is "Bhakti as a concept in Hinduism is foreign influence" and the thread opener quoted from
http://www.advaita-vision.org/bhakti-in-advaita/

There was a preposterous claim "Historically speaking, Bhakti as a cult took root in India after the Muslim invasions".

This claim, from a website ostensibly supporting Advaita Vedanta, is fallacious due to many reasons, a few of which I had mentioned in my initial response. All historical evidence point to Bhakti dating long back in antiquity, perhaps as old as the Upanishads.

The spiritual leader of Advaita, Shankaracharya himself was a bhakta, and it is obvious that he lived several centuries before the Muslim invasions. For a detailed discussion on the date of Sankara, considering various theories and historical aspects, the book "Life And Thought Of Sankaracharya" by GC Pande may be referred.

When I took up this fact in discussion, that Sankara himself was a bhakta, I noticed that it is not readily accepted here.

That was why I issued a rhetorical challenge to discuss certain statements related to this matter. My aim thereby was to show, using the example of Sankaracharya, that the topic of this thread (Bhakti as a concept in Hinduism is foreign influence) is baseless. I hope that my messages helped at least a few readers gain more awareness on Sankaracharya.

I am part of a non-profit organisation that has been collecting, verifying and translating the works authored or attributed to Sankaracharya and getting them published together. The Vani Vilas Press from Srirangam had done a similar job in the past. But many manuscripts of works attributed to Sankaracharya were unearthed afterwards, and their verification and translation to English is still in progress.

So the work is still going on. At present, we are a little short of funds. Anyone from the readers interested in supporting this nonprofit venture, may PM me for the details.

Dear Mr KRN:

I applaud you for your efforts. Is there anyway you can share the details of the organization here (provided it is not against the forum rules). This way any of us interested in supporting the organization can be aware and decide to support the cause anonymously

 

[a-TB]

As usual a childish comment of a fully grown physical person, alas the mind did not keep pace with the physical growth. There is no need for your insults.

Normally attacking a post is not the same as attacking a person. A few characters never learn this always calling names, watching for other people's ego, commenting on them and derailing threads. The best way to deal with a repeat offender is to call out his post like you have done.

My questions and challenges were to Mr KRN who has been responding and I respect him for that .

What is more immature and infantile than having multiple avatars here, do pretentious things and claim to have special Satvic genes. He has been called out more than once for his multiple avatars.

Then he comments here about others. May Lord Narayana give him peace of mind,

Let us move back to the topic of the thread

 

[a-TB]

Do you know what a citation is?

A citation is a reference to a published or unpublished source. More precisely, a citation is an abbreviated alphanumeric expression embedded in the body of an intellectual work that denotes an entry in the bibliographic references section of the work for the purpose of acknowledging the relevance of the works of others to the topic of discussion at the spot where the citation appears. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A person interested in finding out the truth of the matter, can make a note of the slokas given in the pictures I posted, which should suffice for reference. Then they can peruse any available copy of the Gita bhashyam, in original or translation, and satisfy themselves. If they know Sanskrit or Hindi, all the required details are there in the pictures.

You may ask your expert friends to translate and interpret the slokas for you. And don't forget to return to this forum and state your conclusions. And you or your friends need to come here and state whether you have any references from the Bhashyam for refuting my statements. If you are not going to do that, it is a let down I am afraid.

There is no need to send photocopies of pages of a book that I understand you are in possession.

A citation could be simply say. Gita chapter 11, verse 35 .

i Had supported your conclusion that Bhakthi is not an import from Islam/christianity but Mr Prasad's comment was about how it is practiced today. Today's Bhakthi practice has western influence (just an opinion).

Then you talked about going beyond nature's limitation of body and mind. I pointed out that body and mind is nature. I asked for what you meant with actual example. Waiting for that

You talked about Krishna's Vishwaroopam is thought as a real happening in the battlefield and that Shankaracharya accepted that as a real event. I asked you citation for that. Please provide actual comments of Shankaracharya, not some pages photocopied. Please provide your explanation as to why you came to you conclusions. Or at least provide the exact Sanskrit lines, You can mark up copy of a book page and attach a picture. That should take no time, The previous pictures you attached are hardly legible


If and when you provide actual lines Sankaracharya and how you reached your conclusions, I will try to have a rebuttal ready for you. If you see past postings of Mr Sangom or even Mr tks - they provided actual slokas in Sanskrit, translations and commments & conclusions to make their point. Is that too much to ask of someone who seem to have some expertise? I may or may not succeed in getting a rebuttal but I will try with sincerity

If you dont want to take up the challenge it is fine. You have been kind engaging with me though my knowledge on these is limited. But I need to see something that is without internal inconsistencies in your claims. Your claims about Sankaracharya's understanding has nothing to do with whatever was said in post 1. We are now talking only about your claims

 

[a-TB]

Sir, I have not put forth any 'point' or 'case' or 'thesis' of my own. I made a few statements to counter some lies and misconceptions floating around, about Sankaracharya. As I explained earlier, I have not said anything original, and you may refer the Gita Bhashyam.

It is not my fault that Adi Sankaracharya wrote his works in Sanskrit, nor is it my fault that you seem to be ignorant of Sanskrit or Hindi. So if you want a reference, you will have to put up with that language. By the way, the text in the photos are in Sanskrit, on the left side. I thought I mentioned that earlier.

Per your own admission, this topic to you is akin to a paper from Einstein. Then perhaps you should not even be trying to debate with me on this topic!

So far there is no debate. I am only trying to pin you down with some concrete statements you made in the progress of this thread. I am trying to get consistency and how you reached your conclusions. I have not gotten an scholarly response yet other than telling me I am unqualified to debate. I am unqualified to read and understand Sanskrit and the topic area is something I have begun to read only in the last few years. But mastery is being able to provide explanations to someone who is not an expert, be ready to provide detailed references with explanatory notes about you reached your conclusions. I am told even great scholars need notes written by others (called Tika?) in order to decipher what Sankaracharya taught. So your claim that you got all this by translations does not make sense to me.

But I do appreciate engaging with me - you have not so far provided anything scholarly yet. If you do I will engage with you (by getting rebuttals ready).

In any case it was a pleasure to engage. Please do not join Mr Vaagmi or support him with his condescending comments about others who challenge or ask for details.

 

[Vaagmi]

I prefer to ignore "enfants terribles" of the forum. They will not get any replies from me. A reply will give them respect and so no replies. It would be good for them and the forum if they do not indulge in further leg pulling and mud slinging here.

Just a gentle reminder to these two enfants:

For all your ganging up, abuses and mud slinging on me you have not got a single affirmative post from the vast readership here. That speaks volume about your "sitting in judgment". It would do a lot of good to you to ignore me. There is a ignore button here. Use it. Dont become a hypertensive -- it is bad for health too. LOL. Thanks. Bye.

 

[renuka]

I prefer to ignore "enfants terribles" of the forum. They will not get any replies from me. A reply will give them respect and so no replies. It would be good for them and the forum if they do not indulge in further leg pulling and mud slinging here.

Just a gentle reminder to these two enfants:

For all your ganging up, abuses and mud slinging on me you have not got a single affirmative post from the vast readership here. That speaks volume about your "sitting in judgment". It would do a lot of good to you to ignore me. There is a ignore button here. Use it. Dont become a hypertensive -- it is bad for health too. LOL. Thanks. Bye.

Lol...there was no affirmative post cos the rest of us are beyond Bhakti and Vibhakti! Lol

Its nice to see men mud wrestle!..so i am silent cos i want to see more! ha ha ha.

 

[KRN]

So far there is no debate. I am only trying to pin you down with some concrete statements you made in the progress of this thread. I am trying to get consistency and how you reached your conclusions. I have not gotten an scholarly response yet other than telling me I am unqualified to debate. I am unqualified to read and understand Sanskrit and the topic area is something I have begun to read only in the last few years.

Sir,
Sorry to state that you have been mixing up things. You have voluntarily disqualified yourself from the debate, the day you stated that you will start reading the Gita bhashyam after retirement. Just to remind you - the debate has a pre-requisite, which is that the person should produce original references from this text, which will refute my statements. As yet, you have not taken a single step in this regard.

But mastery is being able to provide explanations to someone who is not an expert, be ready to provide detailed references with explanatory notes about you reached your conclusions. I am told even great scholars need notes written by others (called Tika?) in order to decipher what Sankaracharya taught.

Sir, I have not assumed mastery, instead I claimed myself a learner only! But for the past one week it was you repeatedly claiming that you will bring some 'masters' or 'experts' to this debate! Where are they? My guess is that they have given up on you, having noticed that what I stated is the bare truth!

So your claim that you got all this by translations does not make sense to me.

Sir,
That's a false statement. I clearly stated that I learnt Sankaracharya's works in Sanskrit, sitting at the feet of a teacher of Sanskrit. Kindly show me where I claimed that I " got all this by translations".

Sir, by all means refer Anandagiri's tika also, confirming my statements

Sir,
What you state, is required if I were putting forward a new interpretation, a radical perspective on Acharya's work. But that is not the case here. I have done that elsewhere - In fact a book translated by me is presently in publication stage - by the Ramakrishna Mutt and independently by our own publishers. In this book I have translated and interpreted a work attributed to Acharya (but no-one knows for sure about the authorship) and in which I have presented a perspective on Parivrajyam and nishkama karma that is different from what is seen in some other works.

But that kind of scholarship is not required in the present instance. When some people are complaining of darkness unaware of the blazing midday Sun, simply because they have chosen to remain within closed doors and walls, all you need to do is to ask them to come out and see the Sun for themselves. There is no need to go into a description of the Sun's spectrum, infrared, ultraviolet, x rays etc and their composition details and so on so forth. So that's all I needed to do here.

There are some Gita slokas in which I have a interpretation different from other commentators. So if I am in the mood I might try posting slokas from the Gita, with my translation, interpretation, with references etc...but that also depends on how a discussion progresses, the kind of response that comes in. The way you responded gave me an impression that you were not serious, just trying to waste my time. So those things will have to wait.

 

[KRN]

Dear Mr KRN:

I applaud you for your efforts.

Thank you Sir, for your role in keeping this thread at the forefront, thereby garnering some attention to me and to my request on behalf of my organization