Brahmin Marriages - Assertiveness/Aggressiveness of Girls - History and introspection

[sankara_sharmah]

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Note: There are many members in this forum who do not like to talk about history and introspection of our community. A few of them may find my post offensive. If you are one of them please avoid this discussion.

We have had a number of discussions about the problems in Brahmin Boys getting married. It is blamed on the assertiveness/aggressiveness of modern girls.

This is not entirely true. Modernity has nothing to do with the present problems except that it has freed our women from the dependence on men.

Tamil Brahmin women have always been smart, assertive and aggressive. At least in the last 150 years. You have to only read some old novels by Vai. Mu. Kothainayaki Ammal and Thi. Janakiraman among others to find out about this. We are all aware of this. We are portrayed like that in Cinema and TV. That is how we are viewed by others. A community of smart, assertive/aggressive women and Cowardly men.

The contributing factor to this is the total lack of assertiveness/aggressiveness bordering on Cowardice on the part of Brahmin Men.

But most of us refuse to accept this.

I admire the Brahmin Women who have carried the burden of the family for generations. They had to carry not only the family but also the burden of an often useless husband.

The Brahmins who were assertive/aggressive moved up the social ladder. The non-Aggressive Brahmins got left behind in the lower middle class.

Sattivakam does not mean loss of Masculinity. Non-Aggression does not mean non-assertiveness/cowardice. Brahmins did do fighting. Dhronacharya was a Brahmin. The legendary Parasurama almost wiped out the Kshitryas. But these are not our Heroes.

I have physically beaten up people in Kerala and Punjab because they thought they could insult a Brahmin and a South Indian without any physical reaction.

General opinion is that Brahmins are Cowards and South Indians are tunda (cold). Means they will not react to insults.

[Contd]

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Continuation from earlier post

In the older women of the earlier generations there was a generally a contempt for the husbands for their lack of assertiveness/aggression and Masculinity.

But they put up with that because they were dependent on the Men totally for their livelihood. They always showed the contempt wherever they could.

The modern Girl has inherited the deep contempt of their mothers for Brahmin Men for their lack of assertion/aggression and Masculinity.

Since now she is now no longer dependent on Men for survival the real feeling carried on by the earlier generation comes through.

Women even today like smart, assertive, masculine men. Men who can afford protection to them.

Our girls get married to non-Brahmins because the non-Brahmin men find them attractive. Not all of them are fair or good looking. Though Brahmins would like to believe that they are after Brahmin girls because of the caste, it is not the main reason. Brahmin girls are liked because they are Smart. Brahmin girls also find the non-Brahmin boys smart, assertive and aggressive.

Most of the Brahmin and non-Brahmin girls do not like Brahmin boys because they are not Smart, assertive/aggressive.. Smart Brahmin Boys have no problem in attracting Brahmin as well as non-Brahmin girls.

The problem with our community is that we generally believe that the only way to Smartness is Academic qualifications. This is totally wrong.

We can as parents undo this. My family was well known in my village because we were assertive/aggressive and not afraid of physical violence.

My children learned Kung Fu and Karate. One of them is a Black Belt in Kung Fu.

Why should Brahmins play only Cricket and Chess? Why not Football and Hockey? Why did Tamil Brahmins frown on the Moustache when even old conservative Brahmins like Lokamanya Bala Gangadhara Tilak had a moustache.

The Brahmins of Tamil Nadu did not react to the arrest of Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal. They were afraid of even holding demonstrations. Compare this with the demonstrations when Premananda was arrested. When any other community has problems with a Movie, they hold demonstrations. Have the Brahmins ever done this? Silent march holding placards highlighting their grievances?

Think about this.

The only way to win back our girls to become Masculine and Assertive/Aggressive. Become Smart. Remember we are the descendants of Parashurama. Brahminism does not mean Cowardice/inaction.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sir,

I am not a Brahmin but I totally disagree with your post.

You make it sound as if all girls are liking caveman sorts!

Girls do not want a man who is aggressive or assertive.

I myself wont tolerate such a male..a man has to be intelligent and brave without being aggressive.

An intelligent man knows how to be brave according to the situation.

A cultured educated person will use his brains to judge a situation and not use his brawn alone.

After all the Kings of yester yugas were brains and brawn both and they used brains more.

Even at war they were using brains more than brawn.

No girl would want a guy who gets angry at the drop of a hat like village party Subramaniapuram types of males.

Sir..BTW most girls do not like mustache also..one of the reasons I married my husband cos he is clean shaven.
My brothers and father also are all clean shaven.

Mustache is not big deal..even Cockroaches have mustaches..so that is no measure for valour in a male.

Sir..these days no man goes for war blowing a conch and making roaring sounds.
If aggressiveness was a criteria for girls to fall in love with man..every girl in India would have crossed over the border to marry Pashtuns!LOL


Girls desire a man with a back bone who can decide what he wants himself without always running to his mum/dad for advise.

Spineless guys are found in every community!LOL

So feel your analysis might not be 100% correct.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Renuka,

You are not a Tamil Brahmin and have not studied the community. I have done for the last 10 years full time. And spent 67 years inside the community.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

You are not a Tamil Brahmin and have not studied the community. I have done for the last 10 years full time. And spent 67 years inside the community.

Dear Sir,

Agreed but I have had TB female friends when I was in India.
None of them thought this way.

Everyone of them just wanted an intelligent, well earning guy who has a back bone.

None of them wanted the winner of the Jalli Kattu contest.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

You have misunderstood the whole post.

I am not asking the Brahmins to become wrestlers.


I am only asking them to be assertive and not be a coward.

You said Backbone. Most of them do not have one. I wonder how many girls would marry a coward.

And then you do not seem to have known or experienced the contempt of the older Brahmin Women for their husbands.

பாம்பின் கால் பாம்பறியும்

 

[suraju06]

Hi folk,

I asked a brahmin girl to contribute to this forum. After studying some of the posts in this forum and the topics discussed she sent me this. Please read this.

I am a brahmin girl. I am 26 years old. I am intelligent, fair and beautiful though I may not be mirror-cracking material. I am tall, healthy and slim. I am a post graduate and am well employed. My annual earnings are in the seven figure range. My parents are healthy and are self dependent both financially and otherwise. I have a younger sister who is also well employed after her graduation. When my parents asked me whether I am ready for a marriage so that they can find a suitable match for me I told them yes. But I retained the final say as to accept or reject a match. My parents agreed to this and started looking for a match for me. I am going to tell you the real life story of my experience in finding a suitable match for me. When I started this exercise I never thought that it would turn out to be so difficult. My requirements or expectations, which were worked out in a meeting of the family council (this council consists of father, mother, myself and sister and my grandma ) were these:

(1)The boy should not be more than 3 years older than me. Can be relaxed by one more year if the other parameters are satisfactory.

(2)He should be atleast a PG. and well employed. His annual income is not a criterion. He may be earning less than me or more than me.

(3)He should be tall like me, healthy and handsome. No handicaps. Should not be suffering from any disease.

(4)His family should be a decent one. Parents should not take offence if enquiries are made about the family. If they give references for validations that would be excellent. The parents should be well educated.

(5)He should not have bad habits. Not even social drinking. Not even just one cigarette a day.

(6)If he has brothers and sisters elder to him they should be already married.

(7)Though we are not sold on astrology, we would look for horoscope matching. If it does not match for us and matches from the boy’s side it is ok with us and we will move forward.

(8)I have no problem living with in laws as I know its value. But being a working women I expect a lot of understanding from their side about my limitations to adjust my time between demanding time-lines in my work life and my household duties at home. I don’t even expect to express this to my inlaws in so many words and that is what I mean by understanding.

Having finalised this list we decided that (1) it would be too much to give this complete list to each boy or his parents when an approach is made. We know the nature of egos and how they play out.(2) We would not mention my earnings in the initial stages. We would just say well employed. So we started receiving proposals and in some cases we made proposals and followed them up relentlessly when recommended by friends, relatives neighbours etc. and started looking at each one with an open mind sincerely with the intention to take it to the final level. But my experience was not a very happy one.

Case 1.

This boy met most of our requirements. He was taller than me, was a PG from one of the premier institutes, was well employed. He looked handsome too. His parents told us the horoscopes matched well. So we did not go to the astrologer. After the preliminaries were over, My parents invited them to our house one day so that we, the boy and girl, can meet. They came and they impressed us as a good family. The boy and I were given an opportunity to speak to each other alone. The boy was frank and told me that he was a social drinker. He said he had excellent control over his drink. He never got drunk. His parents were not aware about his drinking habit. After they left we discussed whether it is okay to take the risk and move ahead. While my parents were particular that the proposal is not okay I was confident that I could manage because I liked the frankness with which he spoke about his habit, knowing fully well that our family will consider it unacceptable. We decided that we should make more enquiries. My parents visited the boy’s house one day. After a cup of coffee and introductions and then the usual concerns etc., the father of the boy went in and called out some name and out came a full grown Alsatian dog . It, rather he, was introduced as a member of the family and he made appropriate noise acknowledging the compliment with a bow wow. My parents decided that moment that this was not for us. They took leave and came home and by that time the private detective who was engaged to inquire about the boy too gave a report that the boy visits bars with his friends/colleagues. The report was not of much use as it did not contain any previously unknown info. My Dad politely informed them that we are not interested in the alliance and wishing the boy a happy marriage soon.And we added one more requirement in our list that there should be no pets at home as we are all allergic to that.

More cases will follow.


I will post more cases when I receive them. Cheers.

 

[renuka]

You have misunderstood the whole post.

I am not asking the Brahmins to become wrestlers.


I am only asking them to be assertive and not be a coward.

You said Backbone. Most of them do not have one. I wonder how many girls would marry a coward.

And then you do not seem to have known or experienced the contempt of the older Brahmin Women for their husbands.

பாம்பின் கால் பாம்பறியும்

Dear Sir,

But Brahmins have been on the top of the Varna system from time immemorial.
Doesn't that take a lot of valor?

 

[mkrishna100]

Brahmin Marriages - Assertiveness/Aggressiveness of Girls - History and introspection

The Aggressiveness and Asertiveness of Today's Brahmin Girla are due to :
1) Most of the Girls are well educated with professional degrees .( i.e Education )
2) Most of them are financially independent and have jobs and salaries equal to that of men .( i.e Employment )
3) They have better understanding of the world and about the various choices due to Technology ( Internet ,TV etc ) and also they are ready to move out from the confines of their homes to other states / countries to pursue their studies or take up jobs .( i.e Exposure )


So once a person is strengthened through Education , Employment and Exposure it is natural that person would be assertive if not aggressive .
Previously this was the sort of monopoly of Brahmin Men but now the gap has narrowed down and Women are also on an equal footing so there is nothing much the Men can claim as superior to the women and have to keep the tails coiled and learn to behave with women on equal terms .

 

[renuka]

And then you do not seem to have known or experienced the contempt of the older Brahmin Women for their husbands.

Dear Sir,

Most Indian older women irrespective of caste do not tolerate their husbands!LOL

 

[suraju06]

Dear Renuka,

Mustache is not big deal..even Cockroaches have mustaches..so that is no measure for valour in a male.

That was a bouncer and you bowled well. I enjoyed the humour in it and the truth there.

Cheers.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Dear Sir,
But Brahmins have been on the top of the Varna system from time immemorial.
Doesn't that take a lot of valor?

The Brahmins claimed to be the highest in the varna syatem. But only in Religious matters. Brahmins did not rule in the caste system. As per all the Smritis or the Hindu law books, the Kshatriyas were the ruling class. No exception. This is where the caste system differed from the class system of rest of the world. The Brahmins were the highest class but not the ruling class. They were as one said "The intellectual Aristocracy." In fact the scriptures specifically prohibited the Brahmins from acquiring wealth. A Brahmin should not store more than three day's requirement in his house. Poverty is the prescribed norm for a Brahmin. The Kings were exhorted to provide shelter and food for the Brahmins.

In all yagnas conducted by the Brahmins the yajamana (master) was always a king from other castes.

In the more than 3000 yeras of Indian history Brahmins have ruled less than 200 years. The Shudras have ruled for a much longer period of time. The Nanda dynasty was a Shudra Kingdom. The Mauryas were also Shudras. The Guptas were Vaisyas. The only Brahmin dynasty was the Kanva dynasty. That is why the Brahmins were allowed to live. If they had sought power they would have been wiped out long back.

Nanda Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chandragupta Maurya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Brahmins were Raja Gurus. More like the Chancellors in the medieval British kingdoms. But they could be changed, killed or banished merely on the whim of a King. Expendable.

 

[sravna]

I think we need to understand certain fine points here. Firstly equating masculinity with aggression is not correct. Aggression may be an important trait in animals but that is not so in humans. So I would say that aggressiveness is more a outward trait and it plays only a secondary role to the more important mental trait of assertiveness. For that you need intelligence. So it is only a matter of adapting one's personality so that it is in tune with the rest of the world.

I think the notion that brahmin men are cowards is a wrong connotation. The fact that brahmins because of their disinclination to force have been portrayed in this light. Physical bravery anyway can achieve little and as I said bravery is more in the mind. Brahmins because of their intelligence indeed possess that self confidence. In my opinion the lack of aggression of the brahmin boys is not the real reason for not finding a brahmin bride. If lack of aggression is indeed seen as a flaw, I think it is the girls who need to change that perception.

 

[Raghy]

Greetings.

I have a huge doubt. Are there any brahmin girls with undergraduate or lower qualifications and /or earning less money ? Our son is not a post graduate. Almost all the girls in the matrimony sites were seeking post graduates only. Really beats me!

I did ask our son to study some post graduate studies. He asked me 'why?'... I didn't know the answer though. He said ' I am not a post graduate. But half the guys working under me are post graduates. I just focus on studying courses specific to my line of work. Post graduate studies may not be beneficial for me. Thanks for your suggestion'.

He did not contact any girl asking for post graduate qualified grooms... He moved away from most of the available girls.

I don't know.. the whole thing seems dubious to me. I did not even have an undergraduate degree until I was 53. Oh well!.......

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Firstly equating masculinity with aggression is not correct.

Dear Sravna,

Aggression can also be a form of cowardice or inferiority complex.

 

[prasad1]

Renukaji is right.

Girls desire a man with a back bone who can decide what he wants himself without always running to his mum/dad for advise.


Spineless guys are found in every community!LOL

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I had mentioned in my earlier post about the Shudras and non-Kshatriyas ruling the country for most of thousands of years of the historical period.

The Brahmins with all their tall talk of Varna system could not prevent this. They do not even seem to have opposed it.

Even in Tamil Badu most of the castes except Brahmins and scheduled casted have ruled part of the state for some time.

The Brahmins who opposed the rulers were banished from the kingdom. That is one of the reasons the Brahmins migrated all the time.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Man particularly the so-called Brahmin (of the South), uses discretion to fight or, to meekly surrender thereby get crowned as HP without soliciting the unstudded crown. There are 3 types of our men. One fights at home (only to lose), the second at office (for mixed results) and the third dumb class will fight in Society meetings (again mixed results). Better than being brave, it will benefit every one to be intelligent, husband or wife.

 

[sarang]

I think 'assertiveness' was and is equally distributed in all communities and genders, brahmins included. Assertiveness is the trait to have a positive frame of mind, having an opinion on important issues and striving hard to hold that while facing events or situations.

I have found that many of my old women relatives were assertive, expressed their views in clear, strong and unambiguous language on minor and major issues - education, marriage alliance, property acquisition, celebration of family functions etc.

My father wanted me to go for IAS/IPS civil service but my mother was keen on engineering. As the choice to select the stream has to be decided at the pre-university level, we all had long discussions; mother's choice was final. Of course there are other issues when she had to give in.

My conclusion is - brahmin women were assertive and were never door mats, as many think.

 

[sangom]

From my limited observation of our tabra community and the marriages taking place during the last ten or so years and the way these marriages progress (or collapse in divorces), I feel the truth of the matter is spread in more than one post in this thread. I will try to list out the salient aspects below :—

• Tabra girls no longer feel that they are gettinf "married into" the groom's household or gotra, etc. On the contrary, and in the facade of gender equality, they think that the boy has to comply with all the requirements of the girl and her elders and live in their house, more like a "Ghar Jamaai" or veeTTu mAppiLLai. This insistence becomes intense if the boy is lower in earnings, position, education or even if his family is lower in financial position to that of the girl's. It is very simple, the earlier notion of "innoru veeTTukku pOkavENTiyavaL" has to be rewritten as "innoru veeTTukku pOkavENTiyavan"!
• Tabra girls generally do not like the very idea of her in-laws coming anywhere near her. This means that she will not like to stay in her husband's family. Even if the newly married couple are to live abroad, the tabra girl just does not want the in-laws to go visit there. That is why the in-laws have now come to be referred to (especially by the girls' side) as "unwanted luggage/baggage" "devils" and "vikram's vEtALams" etc. (The last epithet was used for parents who require financial support from their son.)
• Aggressiveness is not a plus point but unlimited funding of course, is. For example, if the boy is the only child of very rich parents, and costly gifts such as diamond jewellery can be expected on each and every occasion, the dil is perfectly happy to live with such in-laws and the comforts of such a posh house which will be better than those available in a 5-star hotel. (no cooking, washing, etc., all taken care of by cooks, servants, maids, etc.)
• It is not intelligence, presence of mind, etc., which are required in the husband but the ability to get out unscathed from any and every type of difficult situation - traffic offence, shop-lifting, threatening phone calls from ex-boy friends/lovers, and so on.

It therefore looks to me that today's tabra boys should make efforts to cultivate friendships in the political circles, and also try to land a very highly remunerative job. That will increase his chances of finding a suitable life-partner.

Comments and criticisms are welcome.

 

[sarang]

Brahmins were invited by kings to settle down and practice dharma. Villages, lands were donated as brahmdeyam and temples were built. The king employed some on various professions. This is the reason for migration, at least in 99% of the cases.

Anyone who opposes the king will be banished. One known case of banishment of brahmins was done by Rajaraja chola. These brahmins were suspected to have plotted the murder of his elder brother karikalan.

The Brahmins who opposed the rulers were banished from the kingdom. That is one of the reasons the Brahmins migrated all the time.

 

[tks]

Any generalization of human traits about any community is a reflection of a narrow minded perspective in my view.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Brahmins were invited by kings to settle down and practice dharma. Villages, lands were donated as brahmdeyam and temples were built. The king employed some on various professions. This is the reason for migration, at least in 99% of the cases.

Anyone who opposes the king will be banished. One known case of banishment of brahmins was done by Rajaraja chola. These brahmins were suspected to have plotted the murder of his elder brother karikalan.

When the local Brahmins opposed their wishes they invited Brahmins from outside who would comply with their wishes.

This is how the Palakkad Brahmins were supposed to have been invited by the King of Palakkad who wanted to marry a tribal girl. Other stories are all forgotten.

Families of Brahmins also got banished if one person in their family committed Murder. This is the punishment according to Yagnavalkya Smiriti.

 

[prasad1]

Any generalization of human traits about any community is a reflection of a narrow minded perspective in my view.

very good observation.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Any generalization of human traits about any community is a reflection of a narrow minded perspective in my view.

You are right Sri.TKS. This is from the narrow prospective of finding a solution to the problem face by thousands of Tamil Brahmins who are not able to get married. My heart goes out to them.

Brahmins who can not perform obsequies for their parents, who have no one to look after them in their old age, Brahmins who will not have Shraddhams performed for them.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/10950-non-marraige-brahmin-men.html

This is my reaction to this discussion.

This is not about upholding one's own version of Brahminism.