Can brahmins be wealthy?

[Haridasa Siva]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

I was reading the book 'Sree Gaayathri'. The book starts with the அருள்வாக்கு of Kanchi Kamakoti Jagatguru Sree Sankara Sekarendira Saraswathi Swamigal (Paramaachaaryal) and it, inter alia, quotes the following. I was taken aback with this and wanted to get the views of our members.

"லோக க்ஷேமத்திற்காக மந்திரங்களை அப்யசிக்க வேண்டும் என்பதற்காகவேதான் செலவு பண்ணி உபநயனம் முதலியவைகளைச் செய்து கொள்ளுவது. வேத மந்திரங்களை ரக்ஷிப்பதற்க்காகவே - அதன் மூலம் சகல ஜீவ ஜந்துக்களையும் ரக்ஷிப்பதற்க்காகவே - தேகத்தை வைத்துக்கொள்ள வேண்டும். 'எல்லோரும் சௌகரியமான தொழில் பண்ணுகிறார்களே! பணம் சம்பாதிக்கிறார்களே! ஏன் நாம் செய்யக்கொடாது?' என்று பிராமணன் நினைக்கக் கூடாது. முன்பு இவன் பிராமன தர்மங்களைச் செய்தாலே போதுமென்று ராஜாவும் சமூகமும் இவனுக்கு மானியம், சம்பாவனை செய்து வாழ வசதி தந்தார்கள். இப்போது நிலைமை மாறிவிட்டதால், பணத்துக்கு கொஞ்சம் பிரயத்தனப்பட வேண்டியதுதான். ஆனால் நிரம்பப் பணத்தை சம்பாதிக்க வேண்டுமென்று ஆசைப்படக்கூடாது! இதற்காக அனாசார வழிகளில் பிரவேசிக்கக்கூடாது. பிராமணர்களுக்குத் தரித்திர நிலை வேண்டியதுதான். இன்பங்களைத் தேடாமல் காயக் காயக் கிடந்தால் தான் இவனுக்கு ஞானப் பிரகாசம் உண்டாகும். அதனால் லோகம் வாழும். கண்ட தேசங்களுக்குச் சென்று ஆசார அனுஷ்டானங்களை விட்டுவிட்டு சம்பாதிக்கிற ஐஸ்வர்யம் இவனுக்கு வேண்டாம். அப்படி சம்பாதிக்காவிட்டால் ஒன்றும் முடியாது என்பது இல்லை. லோகத்தில் மந்திர சக்தியைக் காப்பாற்றிக் கொண்டு தன்னுடைய தர்மத்தை அனுஷ்டிப்பது முதல் கடமை. சம்பாதிப்பது secondary (இரண்டாவது) தான்."


Lokah samasthaa sukhino bhavantu.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Brahmins CAN be wealthy but

brahmins are NOT wealthy-

except for a rare few! :nod:

 

[kgopalan]

This world is made up of pancha boothaas; water;fire;air;earth;and sky in a proportion. your body and all other creatures; trees;etc; are made up of each in another proportion of pancha boothaas; While doing so because of the proportion some negativisam is also growing. To reduce this negativisam the creator of this world has formed some departments. In a big manufacturing company for example they are having puechase department; production;production control; inspection; raw material stores; finished product stores; reseach and development; quality control;industrial relation office; administration;and salling,marketing departments must be there. Then only the manufacturing company will run smoothly with enough profit.
The creator of this world is adopting the same way. The creater has subdivided the people as brahmins shathryan and vysyan. All must wear poonal and must do sanhyavandhanam and gayathri japam. In krutha yuga it was there. and in thretha and dwabhara yuga it has diminished and now in kali yuga due to the curse of one rishi, brahmins are not doing gayathri japam.
Brahmins must do daily gayathri japam thrice a day and do aupasanam; deva pooja; must teach vedam to youngsters.must do manthra japam, aqnd yagas. After learning vedas he must go the king and the king will provide him enough agriculture land ,cows; and farmers to look after the lands.
Brahmins will have no worry, no problem, every thing will be settled by the farmers. In turn brahmins musst do japam and paaraayanam for the welfare of his servants,cattle, and to trees and to all other creatures of the world. There will be no time for the department brahmins to earn money. so the king will give him all the protection.

Now in a manufacturing compaqny each deparmrnt will have their department and every thing is going well no problem for the owner.

What will happen if the purchase dept,people says, the marketing dept. people is not doing the purchase dept. work So I will also willnot work here. Can a docter do the work of lawyer or an engineer can do the work of an audutor. You have been appointed by the creator to do Brahmin's work. you are not doing. in the manufacturing unit if you are not doing your work you will be dismissed in a soft way. In the same manner brahmins should not say why only brahmins must do the work given by the creator. By reciting vedas rudram chamakam purushasooktham yagam etc; the negativism formed due to the proportion of the pancha bootha mixture will be lessened and the cyclone, fire, accidents.draught ;extremist; can be lessened only by chanting vedas. to be continued,

 

[sarma-61]

This world is made up of pancha boothaas; water;fire;air;earth;and sky in a proportion. your body and all other creatures; trees;etc; are made up of each in another proportion of pancha boothaas; While doing so because of the proportion some negativisam is also growing. To reduce this negativisam the creator of this world has formed some departments. In a big manufacturing company for example they are having puechase department; production;production control; inspection; raw material stores; finished product stores; reseach and development; quality control;industrial relation office; administration;and salling,marketing departments must be there. Then only the manufacturing company will run smoothly with enough profit.
The creator of this world is adopting the same way. The creater has subdivided the people as brahmins shathryan and vysyan. All must wear poonal and must do sanhyavandhanam and gayathri japam. In krutha yuga it was there. and in thretha and dwabhara yuga it has diminished and now in kali yuga due to the curse of one rishi, brahmins are not doing gayathri japam.
Brahmins must do daily gayathri japam thrice a day and do aupasanam; deva pooja; must teach vedam to youngsters.must do manthra japam, aqnd yagas. After learning vedas he must go the king and the king will provide him enough agriculture land ,cows; and farmers to look after the lands.
Brahmins will have no worry, no problem, every thing will be settled by the farmers. In turn brahmins musst do japam and paaraayanam for the welfare of his servants,cattle, and to trees and to all other creatures of the world. There will be no time for the department brahmins to earn money. so the king will give him all the protection.

Now in a manufacturing compaqny each deparmrnt will have their department and every thing is going well no problem for the owner.

What will happen if the purchase dept,people says, the marketing dept. people is not doing the purchase dept. work So I will also willnot work here. Can a docter do the work of lawyer or an engineer can do the work of an audutor. You have been appointed by the creator to do Brahmin's work. you are not doing. in the manufacturing unit if you are not doing your work you will be dismissed in a soft way. In the same manner brahmins should not say why only brahmins must do the work given by the creator. By reciting vedas rudram chamakam purushasooktham yagam etc; the negativism formed due to the proportion of the pancha bootha mixture will be lessened and the cyclone, fire, accidents.draught ;extremist; can be lessened only by chanting vedas. to be continued,

I remember Cho's drama "muhammad bin tuglak" years ago. In the end tuglak says "as long as our people are like this, no one will find us out!". Same way, so long we have opinions like above brahmins will look strange funny people and disliked by others, or even by our own youngsters.

in purana is a story. visvamitra closed one of his long 'tapas' to find the whole country in utter famine condition-no water, no food, people starving to death. v.mitra was so hungry he found one chandalan eating raw dog flesh and asked him for some. chandala was afraid. vm compelled and so he gave a piece to vm. either this is true fact or utter lie. since all brahmins were doing japam, parayanam and all that in those days, how come there is famine? so, all this talk above is pure humbug to mislead those who don't think intelligently. nothing more. else purana tells pure lie!

like vivekananda said (slightly changed) 'brahmins, arise, awake, rest not until all such humbug beliefs are removed!'

brahmins can be and should be rich like all other citizens hoping today - all should be in lawful earnings.

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sarma.

You said in post no.4:
"since all brahmins were doing japam, parayanam and all that in those days, how come there is famine? so, all this talk above is pure humbug to mislead those who don't think intelligently. nothing more. else purana tells pure lie!"
=====

Do you mean these words of yours as a refutation to KAnchi ParamAchArya's message to us--brahmins, quoted by shrI Haridasa Siva in the OP?

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Sarma61,
Mr.Gopalan has explained in a lucid way how hindu society existed centuries before.I grew up in tamilnadu when late Mr.EVR was indulging in anti-brahmin propaganda.I have witnessed myself how orthodox brahmins
who lead a simple life both in villages and towns were all respected.Do you know only a brahmin cook was employed in EVR's house and one of my Dayadhi relative having a printing press used to approach EVR personally
for getting printing contracts from universities, Government Departments.Everytime my relative visited EVR's residence ,he will insist that my relative should take meals and then leave.Mr.Rajagopalachari and EVR, though having different political views, were close friends.
I have personally met a number of Vedic Scholars in Sankara Mutt.There is one Mutt in my place 'Thiruvanaikoil' They do not exhibit their knowledge openly and Society at large is not getting benefit of their knowledge.
PRAYERS, if done sincerely, results in Good results.
You know in 1940's and 1950's DK followers used to carry on the roads photo of LORD RAMA as depicted in RAMA PATTABHISEKHAM and beat it with Chappals.During that time an aged Brahmin Couple used to hold Lord RAMA's PHOTO and recite BHAJANS and go round the streets.I have seen their photo in newspaper.None obstructed them. NOW, You are seeing a very big movement for construction of 'RAM MANDHIR' in AYODHYA. I think You have read the story of "Ramadoss a BAKHTA of LORD RAMA' of BHADRACHALAM in Andhra pradesh because of whom Lord RAMA appeared before NIZAM of HYDERABAD in the 19th century.

I am afraid, your view is very 'HARSH'.
We should appreciate "knowledge' from all sources.

 

[sarma-61]

namaste shrI Sarma.

You said in post no.4:
"since all brahmins were doing japam, parayanam and all that in those days, how come there is famine? so, all this talk above is pure humbug to mislead those who don't think intelligently. nothing more. else purana tells pure lie!"
=====

Do you mean these words of yours as a refutation to KAnchi ParamAchArya's message to us--brahmins, quoted by shrI Haridasa Siva in the OP?

Shri Saidevo sir,

My words were in connection with Shri Gopalan's post.

But Kanchi paramacharya also wanted money from people may be even tax-evaders and gave lot of weight for them. so, on one side he wanted rich tbs for their money -black or white - and on the other, poor, unintelligent people to blindly follow whatever he said. jayendrar when he was arrested told TV channel (i heard it) that lot of people give money to matam but he cannot find out from where the money came.
But all other swamis, gurus are also like that, made from the same master-mold.

 

[[email protected]]

To All: At EVR house once EVR misplaced the Keys of the Safe(metalchest) and he called the manufacture to get open, a person with highly skilled in opening cheast came and opened it ( he is a true followyer of EVR) saw the Ramamer pattaabishgam,Laksmi,Vinayagha paintings inside and fresh flowers offered, he came out of the EVR house and removed his Black shirt,and black dothi and said the Telugan cheating the Tamizen and makes money dont belivehim. s.r.k.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Sri Sarma61,

like vivekananda said (slightly changed) 'brahmins, arise, awake, rest not until all such humbug beliefs are removed!'

I think you are twisting the quote attributed to V'nanda. He is reported to have said "Arise,awake, stop not till the goal is reached". As for wallowing in superstions, yes he had harsh words. But at no point did he denounce rituals. In fact he called rituals the nursery for religion

You should have known that he has said in his thanksgiving address to the people of Madras upon his return from west that "secular employment is not for brahmins".

Kindly look into the "Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda" published by Sri Ramakrishna Math.

Much of the ills of the present day brahmin society is rooted in preoccupation to accumulate wealth, forsaking our Dharma.

The respect we earn in the society is proportionate to the degree with which observe our Dharma, which was what was Kanchi Acharya's conviction.

With regards,
Swami

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sarma.

What you said in post no.7 about the KAnchi Gurus and the MaThams, IMO, is nothing less mischievous than what the TN politicians have made of them. You make sweeping allegations about the MaTham receiving money from adharmic sources instead of giving any sort of proof about it. Like every other smArtha brahmin, I am an ordinary public devotee of the traditional Shankara MaThams in the country; and I think it is unwise for us brahmins to base our statements in a public forum, on rumours and newspaper reports, while the case is still going on.

The great sage of TamizhnADu who is the icon of every Tamizhian, TiruvaLLuvar says that an aNDhaNan has six vocations in his life: Odhal--chanting Vedas, Odhuvitthal--getting Vedas chanted, vETTal--performing Veda yajnas, vETpitthal--getting Veda yajnas performed, Idhal--charity, and ETRal--acceptance of alms and donations.

Therefore, the Shankara MaThams--or any other Hindu religious institution for that matter--receiving donations for running their activities is well within the dharma. It would be wrong if the money received is appropriated for personal needs or given to vested interests--as the state Governments are doing with the money collected in Hindu temples--which is obviously not the case with the Shankara MaThams.

I remember to have read somewhere in this Forum that members are not supposed to talk ill of the Shankara MaThams, ShankarAchAryas and people like Gandhiji. Will the Moderator or Owner of TBF clarify if shrI Sarma's statements in post no.7 are not against such Forum guidelines?

PS: I have flagged post no.7 for attention of the Admins.

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Sarma61,
Mr.Gopalan has explained in a lucid way how hindu society existed centuries before.I grew up in tamilnadu when late Mr.EVR was indulging in anti-brahmin propaganda.I have witnessed myself how orthodox brahmins
who lead a simple life both in villages and towns were all respected.Do you know only a brahmin cook was employed in EVR's house and one of my Dayadhi relative having a printing press used to approach EVR personally
for getting printing contracts from universities, Government Departments.Everytime my relative visited EVR's residence ,he will insist that my relative should take meals and then leave.Mr.Rajagopalachari and EVR, though having different political views, were close friends.
I have personally met a number of Vedic Scholars in Sankara Mutt.There is one Mutt in my place 'Thiruvanaikoil' They do not exhibit their knowledge openly and Society at large is not getting benefit of their knowledge.
PRAYERS, if done sincerely, results in Good results.
You know in 1940's and 1950's DK followers used to carry on the roads photo of LORD RAMA as depicted in RAMA PATTABHISEKHAM and beat it with Chappals.During that time an aged Brahmin Couple used to hold Lord RAMA's PHOTO and recite BHAJANS and go round the streets.I have seen their photo in newspaper.None obstructed them. NOW, You are seeing a very big movement for construction of 'RAM MANDHIR' in AYODHYA. I think You have read the story of "Ramadoss a BAKHTA of LORD RAMA' of BHADRACHALAM in Andhra pradesh because of whom Lord RAMA appeared before NIZAM of HYDERABAD in the 19th century.

I am afraid, your view is very 'HARSH'.
We should appreciate "knowledge' from all sources.

Shri Krishnamurthy Sir,

I think differently. if my words are harsh i beg your pardon.

Shri Gopalan had written as under:

"...The creator of this world is adopting the same way. The creater has subdivided the people as brahmins shathryan and vysyan. All must wear poonal and must do sanhyavandhanam and gayathri japam. In krutha yuga it was there. and in thretha and dwabhara yuga it has diminished and now in kali yuga due to the curse of one rishi, brahmins are not doing gayathri japam.
Brahmins must do daily gayathri japam thrice a day and do aupasanam; deva pooja; must teach vedam to youngsters.must do manthra japam, aqnd yagas. After learning vedas he must go the king and the king will provide him enough agriculture land ,cows; and farmers to look after the lands.
Brahmins will have no worry, no problem, every thing will be settled by the farmers. In turn brahmins musst do japam and paaraayanam for the welfare of his servants,cattle, and to trees and to all other creatures of the world. There will be no time for the department brahmins to earn money. so the king will give him all the protection."

I find this quite laughable and not knowledge. he was talking of the yugas. when did visvamitra live? anyway gayatri japam could have started only after he found it out. if there was great famine in his time what does it prove? his own japam of gayatri was useless. In ramayana visvamitra is there. so his life time was the tretayugam, is it not? then how Gopalan says people did gayatri japam in krita yugam? rishyasringan lived at the time of dasaratha. there was famine in anga country; why? That is why I was compelled to call Shri Gopalan's post as humbug.

I say we should not spread such wrong ideas to our youngsters. they will not believe but we will lokk like fools for them.

but what proof, reference, evidence we have to say hindu society existed in such-and-such fashion centuries ago? without giving even one item to support this you jump straight to evr and tn- 20th. century!

the brahmins were not rich perhaps but not poor also. because they had rajas and small chieftains who thought they will get "punyam" by giving "danams" of everything possible to 'brahmins'. there you will find all costly danams also. plus most temples used to give free food (annadanam) to brahmins because feeding brahmins was supposed to be highest merit. brahmins (tbs) used to come with whole family to eat in the 'oottupuras' of kerala.

now my views about examples given by you:

1. I have witnessed myself how orthodox brahmins who lead a simple life both in villages and towns were all respected.

the set up and compulsion was like that probably. if you show disrespect to brahmin there will be severe punishment. same exists for mlas/mps/ministers or police today. can we say after hundred years that 'in those days mlas/mps/ministers, police who were mostly corrupt and selfish were all respected'? that is respect out of fear-not true honest respect. and that is why dk was able to turn people against tbs easily. don't you think so?

2. Do you know only a brahmin cook was employed in EVR's house and one of my Dayadhi relative having a printing press used to approach EVR personally Do you know only a brahmin cook was employed in EVR's house and one of my Dayadhi relative having a printing press used to approach EVR personally for getting printing contracts from universities, Government Departments for getting printing contracts from universities, Government Departments.

making a tb cook is not respect but to show to others he has brahmin servant! how do you take it as 'respect', strange! The second one is purely business and why evr should be in the matter of govt. departments? Correctly, the brahmin should not have gone to evr at all-was it for influencing the depts.?

3. Mr.Rajagopalachari and EVR, though having different political views, were close friends.

Rajaji was a top congressman and influential. so why evr should openly make him enemy? it is very clever politics to be friends with top tbs and attack others so the top people do not interfere. and were was feeling of oneness in tb community, then or now? did Rajaji talk against evr's public attacksof tbs?

4. I have personally met a number of Vedic Scholars in Sankara Mutt.There is one Mutt in my place 'Thiruvanaikoil' They do not exhibit their knowledge openly and Society at large is not getting benefit of their knowledge.

veda scholars in mutts are nowadays only good at repeating all they mugged up. they don't / can't analyze like others who write books. and mutts do not - will not - allow independent thinking. it will be something like 'this is the verse and this is the meaning, don't ask any questions, accept and believe this to be the truth.' Such scholarship has no use today, i feel and that is why they don't show it outside; they themselves know their limitations. and what benefit did society get when brahmins had knowledge and highest position? they did not teach even their children or compel them to become veda scholars; why? because, sir, chanting vedas will not bring food for the next meal! one has to work to earn it, if he wants to be sure of meals.

5. PRAYERS, if done sincerely, results in Good results.

nice, clever! there was a ayurvedic doctor. he used to always say his medicines should be taken with full belief. otherwise no results will come. just like that 'prayers, if done sincerely' is the catch here! if good results don't come then no sincerity or defective sincerity. just i think it is easier to be god than a doctor. if patient dies inspite of prayers, it is the patient's bad karma, god is not at fault. but doctor can be prosecuted for negligence, etc. patient survives it is more because god's grace, not patient's good karma, or doctor's skill! how is that god can take no blame for anything?

Another doubt- purana has stories of yagams done to win wars and all that. in such cases what is good result-winning war, killing the enemy or losing war and killing oneself?

6. You know in 1940's and 1950's DK followers used to carry on the roads photo of LORD RAMA as depicted in RAMA PATTABHISEKHAM and beat it with Chappals.During that time an aged Brahmin Couple used to hold Lord RAMA's PHOTO and recite BHAJANS and go round the streets.I have seen their photo in newspaper.None obstructed them.

This doesn't prove anything to me. may be those dk people were after all kind to the old couple and did not attack them. but how are you sure that they were not obstructed? which paper and what was its aim?

7. NOW, You are seeing a very big movement for construction of 'RAM MANDHIR' in AYODHYA. I think You have read the story of "Ramadoss a BAKHTA of LORD RAMA' of BHADRACHALAM in Andhra pradesh because of whom Lord RAMA appeared before NIZAM of HYDERABAD in the 19th century.

ayodhya is very much politics and money will come surely for very gigantic temple even gold-plated. ramadas story i have read. but my opinion is that it is ramadas' story which is making all corrupt people to share a part of their black money with gods in temples. after all Ramadas also misutilised govt's money to build Rama temple, is it not? such stories have made us corrupt to the core, by saying bhakti is good at any cost, even if unlawful.

 

[Nara]

.....The great sage of TamizhnADu who is the icon of every Tamizhian, TiruvaLLuvar says that an aNDhaNan has six vocations in his life: Odhal--chanting Vedas, Odhuvitthal--getting Vedas chanted, vETTal--performing Veda yajnas, vETpitthal--getting Veda yajnas performed, Idhal--charity, and ETRal--acceptance of alms and donations.

Folks, it is sophistry like this that is among the primary reasons for anti-Brahmin feeling among all NBs, particularly educated NBs.

Just a couple weeks ago there was a discussion about Brahmins and Thirukkural in which this particular Kural Saidevo is alluding to was also discussed. Click here for more.

Please note, in this Kural, the term anthanar is not even used. Further, Thiruvalluvar never used the term anthanar when he wanted to talk about Brahmins, although this term, in due course of time, came to be associated with the Brahmins.

In many ways it is this total dissonance between what is theoretically claimed as "real" Brahminhood and what Brahmins generally do in reality, that gives loads and loads of ammunition to DK/DMK. Enough with this obfuscation.

I remember to have read somewhere in this Forum that members are not supposed to talk ill of the Shankara MaThams, ShankarAchAryas and people like Gandhiji. Will the Moderator or Owner of TBF clarify if shrI Sarma's statements in post no.7 are not against such Forum guidelines?

Shri Sharma cited Sankarachariyar's own words, how is that talking ill? If those words are good enough for Sankarachariar himself to say, why the same words when reported by Sharma is talking ill? IMO, the guidelines are intended to prevent gratuitous attacks based on nothing more than opinion. If reasonable and thoughtful discussions are to be promoted, no great person can be put outside the limits of his/her own words for criticism.

Please, don't shut the poor man up, answer his question, which, it seems Saidevo has now done, quite unsatisfactorily, IMO.

Cheers!

 

[sarma-61]

namaste shrI Sarma.

What you said in post no.7 about the KAnchi Gurus and the MaThams, IMO, is nothing less mischievous than what the TN politicians have made of them. You make sweeping allegations about the MaTham receiving money from adharmic sources instead of giving any sort of proof about it. Like every other smArtha brahmin, I am an ordinary public devotee of the traditional Shankara MaThams in the country; and I think it is unwise for us brahmins to base our statements in a public forum, on rumours and newspaper reports, while the case is still going on.

The great sage of TamizhnADu who is the icon of every Tamizhian, TiruvaLLuvar says that an aNDhaNan has six vocations in his life: Odhal--chanting Vedas, Odhuvitthal--getting Vedas chanted, vETTal--performing Veda yajnas, vETpitthal--getting Veda yajnas performed, Idhal--charity, and ETRal--acceptance of alms and donations.

Therefore, the Shankara MaThams--or any other Hindu religious institution for that matter--receiving donations for running their activities is well within the dharma. It would be wrong if the money received is appropriated for personal needs or given to vested interests--as the state Governments are doing with the money collected in Hindu temples--which is obviously not the case with the Shankara MaThams.

I remember to have read somewhere in this Forum that members are not supposed to talk ill of the Shankara MaThams, ShankarAchAryas and people like Gandhiji. Will the Moderator or Owner of TBF clarify if shrI Sarma's statements in post no.7 are not against such Forum guidelines?

PS: I have flagged post no.7 for attention of the Admins.

Shri Saidevo sir,

I am not making "sweeping allegations about the MaTham receiving money from adharmic sources instead of giving any sort of proof about it". I had said as clearly as possible that jayentirar when he was arrested in Sankararaman murder case, he said in pothigai and other channels as i had written. if you want please verify with any tv channel from their archive. i am willing to give affidavit on my honour though i don't respect matts and acharyas.

kanchi acharyas may be regarded as great by many people. but during 70's i have read pamphlet published by somebody from sringeri side saying many bad things about kanchi first acharya. one item very clear in my mind is resolution passed by vidvat sadas of kasi saying there are only four matams by original kalady sankaracharya-sringeri, puri, badri and dwaraka, no matam is there founded by sankara and so kanchi matam is not to be recognised and anyone claiming to be acharya from there should not be given any honour, even that for an ordinary sanyasi.

some of this info can be read in-
Real history of the Kanchi math (Re: Former President Inaugurates...) Celebrations

Dabbler: The extraordinary tale of Kanchi Mutt

kindly get, if possible, the book from varanasi listed in the first url.
Kanchi Kamakoti Math - a Myth - Sri Varanasi Raj Gopal Sarma, Ganga Tunga Prakashan, Varanasi, 1987.

I did not talk ill of sankara matt to begin with. you put a question and i answered that my answer was for gopalan's post. now you write so much about kanchi matt and i have to tell the other side of the story. now let me ask you and forum owner if i may write what is in the web or not?

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Sri Sarma61,

I think you are twisting the quote attributed to V'nanda. He is reported to have said "Arise,awake, stop not till the goal is reached". As for wallowing in superstions, yes he had harsh words. But at no point did he denounce rituals. In fact he called rituals the nursery for religion

You should have known that he has said in his thanksgiving address to the people of Madras upon his return from west that "secular employment is not for brahmins".

Kindly look into the "Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda" published by Sri Ramakrishna Math.

Much of the ills of the present day brahmin society is rooted in preoccupation to accumulate wealth, forsaking our Dharma.

The respect we earn in the society is proportionate to the degree with which observe our Dharma, which was what was Kanchi Acharya's conviction.

With regards,
Swami

Swami Tabra Sir,

I have said in my post itself that i am changing vivekananda's words. pl read again. i do not think there is anything wrong, harmful if brahmins earn money. even if they bend laws ir is ok as long as they are not caught by law. but all this talk about brahmins getting preoccupied with wealth is just for this forum, i honestly feel. neither i nor anyone else is going to miss any chance to earn money. and i know our tbs are as much clever and eager to get reimbursement of fake ta/medical and all sorts of bills. i just want tbs to first be honest in admitting what and how they really are, instead of writing so much goody goody things here and doing something else. it is not only brahmins but every one else who wants to make money to live. i will say all these principled brahmins here first go to whatever forests are still left - husband and wife - and live there as hermits (vanaprastha). will they?

vivekananda has said so many contray things at different times. he was a 'popular' advertiser (brand ambassador, of nowadays) to RKM and tried to enjoy his life. bengalis give lot of respect and blind belief to him without trying to know details. i don't think v was even very well learned in hindu religion since R was a devi (kali) worshipper without any learning in hindu scripture and v also did not seem to have studied in any such vedapatasalas.

it is mainly our high-sounding talk (writings here) and our actions exactly opposite which is ruining our image. i say let us admit we are after money, some of us by hook some others by crook also. perhaps that will be a good confession and a good start for a real happy life. no pretension about brahmins, japam, gayatri, glory of old times and all that. in my life i find our youngsters may be more honest in this way than old people who are afraid to tell truth.

by remaining poor, doing some abracadabra japam or parayanam and all that we cannot fool people like in those days, our respect in society will only come down. kanchi swami might have told in his speech just so poor brahmins will feel more "brahmin" and forget their worry - like the 'soother' to the infant!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Sarma-61,
I have gone through your replies and respect your beliefs.I may not like to get into arguments with you.In INDIA,people do have different opinions about the nature of work one does.A Doctor or Engineer is respected
than a cook or doing other type of Jobs.In the country where I am living at present there are no such inhibitions.Wife may be occupying a higher position but never feels shy to tell about her husband's profession(which in INDIA is considered not 'respectable).There is dignity of labour here.
Same event may bring different reactions to different persons of different background.If a poet observes a tree full of mangoes,he will appreciate nature, a person with leanings of LEFT ideology will say that the master has exploited the labour and will be enjoying the fruits,a house wife will think how nice it will be if she is allowed to pick up some mangoes and prepare 'pickles for the family.Perceptions differ from person to person.
About KANCHI MUTT,I have read an article long time back in ILLUSTRATED WEEKLY OF INDIA written by one MR.R.M.SESHADRI I.C.S how original copper plates exist with the Kanchi Mutt establishing that Kanchi Mutt was the mutt where
Adi Sankara settled after establishing four branch mutts.
EVR was also in CONGRESS PARTY and was not getting the same attention as Mr.RAJAJI at ALLINDIA LEVEL.EGO in him compelled him to start a separate movement.For that matter even Mr.M.K.GANDHI would have continued as a LAWYER for making money but for being thrown out by a white man while travelling in a train in SOuTH AFRICA.EGO in Mr.M.K.GANDHI made him a big leader of INDIA.
You know in Tamilnadu because of EGO problem, MGR started a new political party.
P.S. You have referred by name as'Brahmanyan' in your reply instead of 'Krishnamurthy'

 

[happyhindu]

Copper plates are not difficult to make. Examples are some zamindaris in the colonial times -- who produced copper plate inscriptions to prove something to the british. Some used to get caught because the copper plates used to look very new. Some used to claim that the old copper plates became worn out and so new ones were made to transfer the content from the old ones. In this manner, fake information (esp about geneology) also used to be inserted into the new copper plates. It was common for cheiftains and kings to fake their descent.

One famous set is the vijayanagar people who faked their geneology from Yayati and various other vedic and puranic characters. As regards copper plates of kanchi, perhaps this may help: Copper-plate Inscriptions Belonging ... - Google Books -- kindly note that the ones that refer to the nayaks of madurai. I may be wrong but so far as i know, nayak literature produced by either tanjore or madurai itself do not appear to contain any details of kanchi mutt. Sringeri is mentioned clearly and an ample number of times. Afterall, the real power behind Vijayanagar was the sage Vidyaranya. If a mutt in Kanchi were to be properly mentioned, it should have been in the inscriptions of the Pallavas for whom Kanchi was the capital.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Artha, Kama, Dharma, Moksha

Moksha comes after Artha only. Anyone who has a family has the responsibility of earning to the best of his capabilities to provide the best he can for his family. Being wealthy is not a sin.

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sarma.

01. Although I did not watch the Podhikai TV channel, the statement of ShankarAchArya Jayendra Sarasvati SvAmigaL, was made in connection with his case. My taking exception was to your extending it with the assumption, "...Kanchi paramacharya also wanted money from people may be even tax-evaders and gave lot of weight for them." Since, like some people here, you "don't respect matts and acharyas", I cannot expect anything better from you, so let us agree to disagree here.

02. I believe in the saying that RiShi mUlam and nadI mUlam cannot be questioned and that it extends to the Ashrams of the sages too. As an ordinary public devotee to both the KAnchi and the Shringeri MaThams, I am not worried about their antiquity or the age of Adi Shankara BhagavadpAda. Just as I can worship with bhakti at the PiLLaiyAr temple in our street corner established by a NAicker family very recently, or at the SkandAshramam, Selaiyur established some decades back, or at the classical temples like Tiruchi Rockfort PiLLaiyAr temple, Madurai MinAkShi, Chidambaram NaTarAja and ShriranganAtha PerumaL without worrying about which king established them and which is more ancient, I can be a devotee of both the MaThams, without letting any controversies about them coming in the way of my devotion.

03. The purport of the OP of this thread is to find to what extent we as brahmins can follow the guildines of KAnchi ParamAchArya in these times of the Kali Yuga. You may not care about it, but please note that you cross the limits of propriety when you seek to question the veracity of the guru's guidelines, attribute motives to them, bring in all sorts of extraneous issues and decry anyone who wants to adhere to his traditions as much as possible.

Can't we have a decent and professional discussion here in TBF about the dharma ordained for brahmins without questioning its very roots or attributing motives to people? Why should a pack of people who don't believe or care for sampradAya jump in everytime on anyone making a traditional statement here?

The other day someone lamented that although there are around 15,000 members here, most people do not read or participate in the discussions. At any point of time, the number of members and guests online is in the ratio 1:20 or so, and I suspect most of those guests online are members who choose to lurk. Now I understand their reticence.

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Shri.Sarma-61,
I have gone through your replies and respect your beliefs.I may not like to get into arguments with you.In INDIA,people do have different opinions about the nature of work one does.A Doctor or Engineer is respected
than a cook or doing other type of Jobs.In the country where I am living at present there are no such inhibitions.Wife may be occupying a higher position but never feels shy to tell about her husband's profession(which in INDIA is considered not 'respectable).There is dignity of labour here.
Same event may bring different reactions to different persons of different background.If a poet observes a tree full of mangoes,he will appreciate nature, a person with leanings of LEFT ideology will say that the master has exploited the labour and will be enjoying the fruits,a house wife will think how nice it will be if she is allowed to pick up some mangoes and prepare 'pickles for the family.Perceptions differ from person to person.
About KANCHI MUTT,I have read an article long time back in ILLUSTRATED WEEKLY OF INDIA written by one MR.R.M.SESHADRI I.C.S how original copper plates exist with the Kanchi Mutt establishing that Kanchi Mutt was the mutt where
Adi Sankara settled after establishing four branch mutts.
EVR was also in CONGRESS PARTY and was not getting the same attention as Mr.RAJAJI at ALLINDIA LEVEL.EGO in him compelled him to start a separate movement.For that matter even Mr.M.K.GANDHI would have continued as a LAWYER for making money but for being thrown out by a white man while travelling in a train in SOuTH AFRICA.EGO in Mr.M.K.GANDHI made him a big leader of INDIA.
You know in Tamilnadu because of EGO problem, MGR started a new political party.
P.S. You have referred by name as'Brahmanyan' in your reply instead of 'Krishnamurthy'

Shri Krishnamurthy Sir,

I am really sorry for addressing my post to wrong name. i have corrected it now. will be very careful in future, sir.

Since you say you do not want to "get into arguments" with me, I stop here.

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

This is with reference to Nara's contention in the reference to the thread 'Enge Brahmanana?' (post no.12), that the term andhaNar "has been successfully hijacked to mean Brahmin" and that TiruvaLLuvar never used it in that meaning in his KuRaL.

• The term 'andhaNar' refers to one who does aNavu--approaches, visualizes and sticks to, of the antam--vedAntam, the end of the Vedas. This is the meaning NachchinArkkiniyar gives to the term in his commentary of the 'KaDavuL vAzhtthu' of the sangham literature 'Kalitthogai'. (Ref: 'Tamizhaga andhaNar varalARu' by K.C.Lakshminarayanan).

• There is no doubt that the VaLLuvar uses the term 'andhaNar' to refer to sages who are the embodiment of compassion, but it is also true that by the technique of 'Agupeyar'--metonymy/synecdoche, the term refers to the people of the brAhmaNa varNa, who in those days, lived a life of prayer, compassion and asceticism.

• Just as the term 'brAhmaNar' refers to one who does 'aNavu' of brahmam, and stands for the brahmins, the term 'andhaNar' also stands for them, so there is no hijacking involved in it.

Shri KCL says that in the Sangham Tamizh Literature, the five terms 'andhaNar, brAhmaNar, pArppanar, vediyar and maRaiyavar' were used to refer to the people of the brAhmaNa varna.

 

[happyhindu]

....

02. I believe in the saying that RiShi mUlam and nadI mUlam cannot be questioned and that it extends to the Ashrams of the sages too.

Can't we have a decent and professional discussion here in TBF about the dharma ordained for brahmins without questioning its very roots or attributing motives to people? Why should a pack of people who don't believe or care for sampradAya jump in everytime on anyone making a traditional statement here?

The other day someone lamented that although there are around 15,000 members here, most people do not read or participate in the discussions. At any point of time, the number of members and guests online is in the ratio 1:20 or so, and I suspect most of those guests online are members who choose to lurk. Now I understand their reticence.

Forgive me for this input Shri Saidevo. I request the moderator to delete this post if it is not considered ok.

I only wanted to convey this to you:

As with changing times, and with the spirit of exploration which is especially growing in the younger generations, it looks rather implausible to expect people to accept things without questioning; merely because it was followed by the immediate preceding generations.

There is an inherant problem with all social identities which are based on religion -- each of them comes with a baggage made up of varying levels of myths and obfuscations. And if packaging people into different baggages has anatagonized a larger set of people in some form or the other, is it but natural to open the bag to inspect its contents; to see how, why and where the packaging was originally done. Whether it is fortunate or unfortunate we do not know, but nothing seems to last forever.

Btw, the 'number of members' may not be an indication of the actual numbers; considering the fact that some people generate quite a few handlenames / monickers for themselves. There may be other factors also preventing people from writing, such as not being the writing sort. And considering the number of hits certain topics get, one could also suspect the "lurkers" are Non-Brahmins who come here to read up things.

I mean no offence with this post. If not found ok, i request the moderator to delete this or any other posts of mine.

Regards.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Sow.Happy Hindu,
I agree with your contention that copper plates can be prepared at any time.Once, Some thirty five years ago the present sankaracharya HH Jayendra Saraswathi came to Secunderabad and camped in 'SWARAJYA PRESS"
for a long time.I have escorted my mother to have darsan and also to listen to his lecture as I was residing very near to the Press. I saw a chart indicating the names of all sankaracharyas and the period for which they were in charge of the mutt and the first name was that of Adi Sankara.
I still wonder what could be the purpose and need for establishing such a mutt a few thousand years before and continuing the hiearchy till date ,if really not started by Adi Sankara, as opined by some people.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

The correct order of things is

Dharma, Artha, kaama and Moksha.

All the other three must follow one's specified Dharma.

Artha , Kaaama, and Moksha which are not founded on Dharma are sins.

Even in Tamil it is Aram, Porul, Inbam and Veedu! :angel:

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Moksha HAS to come only at the tail end-

quite inevitably of course!:bolt:

 

[sarma-61]

Dear Sow.Happy Hindu,
I agree with your contention that copper plates can be prepared at any time.Once, Some thirty five years ago the present sankaracharya HH Jayendra Saraswathi came to Secunderabad and camped in 'SWARAJYA PRESS"
for a long time.I have escorted my mother to have darsan and also to listen to his lecture as I was residing very near to the Press. I saw a chart indicating the names of all sankaracharyas and the period for which they were in charge of the mutt and the first name was that of Adi Sankara.
I still wonder what could be the purpose and need for establishing such a mutt a few thousand years before and continuing the hiearchy till date ,if really not started by Adi Sankara, as opined by some people.

Shri Krishnamurthy Sir,

Excuse me for writing this. One person (no more now), father of my friend, was respecting both sringeri and kanchi. he only showed us - his son and me - the booklet against kanchi. I asked him if he believed the book to tell truth, why should not he stop going to kanchi swami when he comes. His reply was he will go spend some time, get teertham + prasadam and whatever blessing is there. but he said it is interesting to know all these dramas of swamis also.

i heard from the same elder some time later, that the kanchi mutt was started so that there will be one swami for tbs because some very influential tbs were not given proper attention by sringeri and then acharya was a very angry type of person and scolded them - i think his name is vidyateertha, but not sure. that is how kanchi mutt got started.

now yet another branch mutt from sringeri is claiming it is very old, some idol from badrinath was kept there when muslims attacked badri asram, etc. it is in sakatapuram. in short span of less than 20 years this asram has amassed wealth. most politicians in delhi are reportedly devotees (read, they have given large donations, why? that is the quwstion!). this time sringeri acharya is mild man. he has himself gone blessed some function in sakatapuram. may be in near future this sakatapuram swami becomes most popular. i know for a fact that the present swami likes to see his own photgraphs very much. there is an asthana photographer with latest digicam and may be even videos are taken about all daily activities of the swami, which has to be shown to him first thing in the next morning. (in the past the asthana photographer used to work all night processing and printing the old type films!)