Can Tamil Brahmins be bold to disclose their identity in public?

[Nara]

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....Granted, Periyar was an Arch-Enemy of the Upper Caste in India!

Y, EVR was one of the very few true revolutionaries the world has seen. He was an unsurpassed iconoclast. He railed against superstitions -- I like the Tamil word better, மூட நம்பிக்கை -- whatever may be the source. His criticism of Tamil holy cows, like karpu etc., was no less strident and pungent.

The oft repeated charge that EVR didn't dare criticize Islam and Christianity is a canard. He did criticize Islam and Christianity -- I gather he had chapters criticizing Kuran and Bible in his book "Vedangalin Vandavalangal". But, the ranks of these religions were populated predominantly by the already oppressed people whom he wanted to liberate. If these religions afforded some relief from the oppressive Hinduism he wanted them to take advantage of it, or at least use the threat of conversion to extract some concessions from the establishment.

So, it is a lie to charge EVR that he attacked only Hindu gods. Of course he paid special attention to Hinduism as (i) it was the dominant religion, (ii) it was the religion from which he arose, and (iii) at least in theory Islam and Christianity pay lip service to equality, whereas, the pernicious Varna system had a reverential place in Hinduism.

Most of the shrill criticism of EVR comes only from the Brahmins. Even the Dalits, the only ones who may have some legitimate grievances against EVR, have high regard for him but for M. Venkatesan. The criticism from Brahmins is always about the man and not about the ideas he presented. Even those ad hominems are not fully vetted and are almost always vague claims like Snake and Brahmin -- for which there is absolutely no corroborative evidence, or cutting kudimi/poonool which is at best isolated and not advocated by the man.

But, Y, none of this is going to change anybody's mind. Their idea of EVR is set in stone, because EVR was dead against Brahminism, and that is good enough reason for rejecting anything he stood for.

Cheers!

 

[rishikesan]

Dear ms Renuka,
You are absolutely right. I am sure, by & large all Brahmins, do act in the manner done by you irrespective of their age or Sex. That is the speciality of we, Brahmins. We do not hate anyone, when we are outside our home, & in public. Nothing wrong in practicing your own exclusive way of life , which never hinder other:s practices.
In the same vein, I reiterate that if our younger Boys & girls practice the same way of day-to- day life, much of the complications arising out of inter-cast marriage can be avoided, because I firmly believe it is mainly the infatuation go with the youthful age. Such thoughtful actions would avoid bringing pain to the Parents & grand parents.

Rishikesan / A.Srinivasan

 

[suraju06]

Mr. Nara said in #51

The oft repeated charge that EVR didn't dare criticize Islam and Christianity is a canard. He did criticize Islam and Christianity -- I gather he had chapters criticizing Kuran and Bible in his book "Vedangalin Vandavalangal". But, the ranks of these religions were populated predominantly by the already oppressed people whom he wanted to liberate. If these religions afforded some relief from the oppressive Hinduism he wanted them to take advantage of it, or at least use the threat of conversion to extract some concessions from the establishment.

It would be enlightening as to how hard hitting periyar was if a few of those chapters from the "Vedangalin Vandavalangal" is given here. If that is done there would be no need to cover periyar with these (But, the ranks of these religions were populated predominantly by the already oppressed people whom he wanted to liberate. If these religions afforded some relief from the oppressive Hinduism he wanted them to take advantage of it, or at least use the threat of conversion to extract some concessions from the establishment.) equivocating excuse.

So, it is a lie to charge EVR that he attacked only Hindu gods. Of course he paid special attention to Hinduism as (i) it was the dominant religion, (ii) it was the religion from which he arose, and (iii) at least in theory Islam and Christianity pay lip service to equality, whereas, the pernicious Varna system had a reverential place in Hinduism.

Periyar had hatred for one particular community and in his all consuming hatred there was nothing else visible to him. He thought if he attacks the Hindu gods he will be scoring a point or two against the brahmins and that was the sole motivation for his political ideology. His criticism of other religions , if there was any, was only muted.

Most of the shrill criticism of EVR comes only from the Brahmins. Even the Dalits, the only ones who may have some legitimate grievances against EVR, have high regard for him but for M. Venkatesan. The criticism from Brahmins is always about the man and not about the ideas he presented. Even those ad hominems are not fully vetted and are almost always vague claims like Snake and Brahmin -- for which there is absolutely no corroborative evidence, or cutting kudimi/poonool which is at best isolated and not advocated by the man.

Periyar criticised brahmins and brahmins had to criticise periyar. There was not a single dalit in any position in the party of periyar and this was not accidental. Periyars close followers were all from powerful middle caste --name any onelike Madurai Muthu a pillai, Nedunchezhiyan and Mathiyalagan, Anbalagan and Annadurai all Mudaliyars,veeramani a yadhava, etc., Periyar had no place for a dalit in his heart or in his party. They were in the fringes of the society and were expendable.

Snake and brahmin quote is true as I have heard it delivered to a crowd. Kudumi poonool cutting is also true. No amount of white washing or sanitizing will make periyar clean.

But, Y, none of this is going to change anybody's mind. Their idea of EVR is set in stone, because EVR was dead against Brahminism, and that is good enough reason for rejecting anything he stood for.

Please define brahminism first. Then we can discuss it.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

EVR in Kudiarasu:

When I advised the Untouchables to join Islam several of them got angry with me. I did not get angry with them.

I did not ask the Depressed Classes to join Islam to get heaven or mental satisfaction or to reach god, I mainly asked them to join Islam to destroy untouchability. It is just like doing Satyagraha. Even now I profess it.

It is difficult to make laws. Even if it is made it is difficult to be practiced. Because of this, one may get sorrow and defeat. But there is no difficulty for the Depressed Classes to convert to Islam. To follow this, there is no defeat or sorrow. What is the difficulty faced by others?

What is the problem whether one is an atheist or theist? Nobody suffers because of this! Even if he is a true Muslim or a false Muslim nobody is troubled by it! Even one need not have any mental change! A person who wants to wipe off the disgrace and dishonour he suffers; if he converts to Islam at 5 p.m. he can walk in any street freely at 5.30 pm and he is free from the clutches of untouchability. What is wrong in becoming human?

Why should one not convert to Christianity or to Arya Samaj? I do not know what is said about Christianity in the Bible. But in practice they have in India especially, Paraiyar Christian, Nadar Christian etc.! Does the Muslim community have such differences? The Christians should not get angry with me.

Arya Samaj is hypocrisy. Because, in the Vaikom Satyagraha, the Arya Samaj Untouchables and the Pulayan Christians were not allowed to walk on the road near the temples. But the Muslims walked freely. For instance, a Cheruman, an untouchable who converted to Islam walked along the road banned for Untouchables.

A Brahmin and a Nair came to the street and looked at him. A Muslim asked them, “Why do you sons-of-aprostitute-pig look at him?” They bent their heads in shame and this untouchable walked on, smiling in that road.

Published in Kudiarasu, Dated: 2-8-1931.

 

[happyhindu]

EVR in "Hero of Vaikom":

Who are the one crore Christians of our country? Who are the seven crores Muslims of our nation? Due to the atrocities by Brahmins and our religious leaders, they have been forced to take up other religions. They are our brothers. They are not from Jerusalem or Arabia.

How are we, the 24 crores people, respected? Muslims call us ‘kufr’ (kafir). Christians call us ‘ignorant of religion,’ Whites call us ‘coolies,’ Britons call us ‘uncultured’ and Brahmins call us ‘Sudra.’

We do not feel disgraced by such things. In the name of religion, we are denied entry into certain streets even today. In the Vedas there are only four castes, but now there are over 4000 castes, these castes still strive to maintain their identity.

Published in Hero of Vaikom, 1923.

Some more:

People of other religions like Muslims, Christians and Parsis can walk in the streets. A pig, dog, cat, rat can walk in the street; these can be seen while eating or at other times. The Hindu Tamilian who was born and brought up in Tamil Nadu, and who has made Tamil Nadu his own for thousands of years, is told by another: ‘You should not walk in the streets, don’t come in front of me.’ How can a human being digest this?

This is the philosophy of the Vaikom Satyagraha and the Gurukulam struggle. Remember that only based on this philosophy, Mahatma Gandhi carried out a Satyagraha in South Africa, and the Kenyan Boycott of Imperialism Day was celebrated.

Published in Kudiarasu, Dated: 5-7-1925.

 

[happyhindu]

Some more:

Presently, Brahmins in this country, under the garb of patriotism have been preaching through their speeches, writings and through others that I am a sectarian and that I instigate sectarian clashes. You should think a little whether sectarian differences and enmity was created because of me or because of the Brahmins of our country!

If you will please get up and come with me—if we go around this village several boards which say, ‘This is for Brahmins’; ‘This is for Sudras’; ‘Panchamas, Muslims and Christians will not be given food, snacks or water here’; ‘Sudras should not draw water from here’; ‘Sudras should not bathe here’; ‘Sudras will not be admitted into this school’; ‘Sudras should not read these topics’; ‘Only Brahmins can go so far—Sudras should not go beyond this point’; ‘Sudras should not reside in this street’; ‘Panchamas should not walk in this street’ are placed in every coffee shop that the Brahmins own, in every hall, in every tank and temple, rules are created, and people are divided; aversion and dislike are created; disgrace is created: Am I the one doing all this? Or, is it the Brahmins? Observe this.

The Buddhists and Jains eradicated the cruelty of Brahmins and said people are equal; love and brotherhood alone was God. The Brahmins could not accept it so they destroyed all these efforts.

At the time when the Brahmins said that they were upper-caste, those who were powerful refused to accept it and were about to use force, so the Brahmins cunningly said, “You shall be the Kshatriyas and rule, we will be your ministers and give you advice,” and thus they cheated them and brought them within their influence.

When the wealthy and the influential asked, “How can you become a higher caste?” The Brahmins told them, “You shall be the Vaishyas, we also place the sacred thread on you, just like ourselves” and cheated them too. Later, the majority who were farmers and artisans were made to work for the three sections above them, including the Brahmins. When several among them did not accept this, the Brahmins said, “We have kept a section lower to you, you are their masters. You can treat them as you like.” Thus they made the peaceful, guileless, non-aggressive people, to be called the Panchamas and exposed them to the Sudras, and thus cheated them. Finally, a voiceless section is suffering as Untouchables.

Today, you are considering only these people—who did such cruelty—as the head of your religion. If such cruelty has to be removed from us, we must gain dominance in religious and political matters. After gaining power, we must try to attain our self-respect. It is my humble and decisive opinion that whether it is for a society or for a nation, self-respect is more important than Swaraj.

Published in Kudiarasu, Dated: 15-8-1926.

 

[happyhindu]

The eradication of untouchability is our duty. There is no other shameless act than following the superstitions blindly because someone said so, because it is written somewhere instead of researching and coming to a conclusion that as far as intelligence is concerned there is no basis for untouchability. Untouchability is not dependent on intelligence or evidence. But, it is only based on foolishness, arrogance, and cheating.

If one touches shit, it is enough to rinse off. But if they touch a man they need to bathe. Is it in the name of hygiene? Or is it on the basis of arrogance? If they believe the purana that Nandan was made into one of the Nayanmars and Pannan was made into the Tirupaanazhwar, why don’t they let the brothers and grandchildren of Nandan into the temples and let them worship? How disgraceful is it to not let the people of the clan of a man considered as one of the 63 Nayanmars into the temples, and to misuse the names of the Nayanmars and Nandan and Azhwars in order to eat tamarind rice and pongal under the pretext of worshipping 63 stone idols?

Published in Kudiarasu, dated: 17.2.1929 as told on 10.2.1929 in the Removal of Untouchability Conference.

 

[happyhindu]

The main failure of the Round Table Conference, the disparity of people in political reform, the lack of faith between Hindus and Muslims, the differences between the Congress and Muslim league, the Untouchables seeking separate electorates are all due to religion and caste differences.

Kudiarasu was stopped because we wrote about Christianity and the magazine Puratchi was stopped because we wrote about Islam. Because we write about Hindu religion, the daily torture we undergo is innumerable. Officers from Brahmin community in the fields of police, railways, law and establishment trouble and torture us limitlessly.

EVR in Pagutharivu, dated: 9-9-1934 (on why due to his criticism of islam and christianity he had to stop publication of kudiarasu and puratchi).

 

[happyhindu]

Published after Kudiarasu was revived:

In any Congress meeting have they sat and taken food without being differentiated as Brahmins and non-Brahmins? Even in a recent Congress meeting, did they not feed the non-Brahmins by making them sit outside?

In all the meetings, right from the Congress Conference, they have cooked only using Brahmins, have they allowed people of other castes to enter the kitchens?

Take the Self-Respect meetings or its conferences. Nadar, Naidu, Muslim, and those who are called Untouchables, all of them together cooked the meal. All of them together served the food and right from the ‘Saivas’ to all the so-called ‘upper’ castes sat together and eat.

At least from this you must understand the Congress’s conspiracy of untouchability. Even if the self-respecters don’t have faith, they praise some religions because they don’t have untouchability. They support some political
parties because it gives equal rights for the Untouchables. The Self-Respect movement tom-toms that anything that denies human rights must be destroyed because that is human nature.

Published in Kudiarasu, dated: 19-1-1936.

 

[happyhindu]

Criticism of muslims continued after Kudiarasu was revived:

We observed all this and felt that we can use the Congress, but they saw to it that a man with integrity does not come to the Congress. Anybody who is not a slave of the Brahmins does not have a place there. But one question: If they win in the elections, let them say that they will give equal opportunity as per communal representation in all the positions. But what is possible when they threaten that this is betrayal to the nation?

The way you threaten us, go and threaten (Jinnah) Sahib, the Bengal Muslims: they will immediately break your teeth and give it in your hand.

EVR in Kudiarasu, dated: 18.10.1936.

 

[happyhindu]

Will the Brahmins be ready to give up any of the rights enjoyed by them? Likewise, will the Muslims be ready to divide any of the rights enjoyed by them? Will the Brahmins and the ‘high’ caste people agree to wipe off the disgrace and the cruelties suffered by the non-Brahmins and the Depressed Classes?

EVR in Pagutharivu, dated: 19-9-1937.

 

[happyhindu]

In the Dravidian nation, a Muslim can lead a life of his own comforts and not according to the wishes of a mullah. I know the rules followed by 10 Islamic nations, the rules only cater to the majority. It is not like the Hindu religion, where 3 1/8 % of the Brahmins say to the non-Brahmins, who form 93% of the population “to stand at a distance,” “you should not study,” “you are Sudra,” “you are a son of a prostitute,” “you cannot have equality,” “you cannot have a job,” “ you cannot have communal representation.”

Islam preaches brotherhood, peace and kindness among one another. It is a path for unity. This cannot be refuted. I do not support or advocate Islam... I do not have love or affection or faith or any other form of relationship with Islam. But in Hinduism the cruelties of the Brahmins are so atrocious, cruel, and unbearable like the poison of an ugly cobra. Islam is the only medicine to save Hindus from the poison of the cobra.

EVR in Ina Izhivu Ozhiya Islam Nanmarunthu, in 1947.

 

[Nara]

.... Even if the self-respecters don’t have faith, they praise some religions because they don’t have untouchability. They support some political parties because it gives equal rights for the Untouchables. The Self-Respect movement tom-toms that anything that denies human rights must be destroyed because that is human nature..

Here, from the man himself, powerful words seen as hypocrisy by narrow minds.

Thanks a million Happy, wonderful excerpts, great reading. Please keep it up.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Finally the disclaimer:

1) Just because i post this does not mean i am a supporter of EVR.

2) I am free to pick and choose points i like and dislike; and hence agree with some and disagree with some points.

3) I find EVR's portions of speeches and writings contradictory. I understand he played according to the prevailing circumstances, over the passage of time.

4) In none of his works (so far atleast) did i find him instigating violence against brahmins.

5) IMO he advocated conversion to islam not just to curtail untouchability but also to show support for Jinnah. Which he could have avoided.

6) IMO evr underestimated the south-indian. He should not have opposed freedom for India just because he was afraid of the congress brahmin clout. Though his writings portray the optimism of a revolutionary zeal, his fear of the congress brahmin clout (of his time) is unmistakable.

7) I am convinced EVR was actually afraid of an independent india ruled by brahmin congressmen. Fear because despite his movement, not many were willing to become atheists in his time, and not many were willing to agree with his methods of begetting equality / ending superstition. The temple culture and faith in God being deep rooted, EVR found resonance only with a select group of supporters from the 'upper' castes and the bulk of his followers were so-called 'panchamas'.

 

[suraju06]

From post above:

In the Dravidian nation, a Muslim can lead a life of his own comforts and not according to the wishes of a mullah. I know the rules followed by 10 Islamic nations, the rules only cater to the majority. It is not like the Hindu religion, where 3 1/8 % of the Brahmins say to the non-Brahmins, who form 93% of the population “to stand at a distance,” “you should not study,” “you are Sudra,” “you are a son of a prostitute,” “you cannot have equality,” “you cannot have a job,” “ you cannot have communal representation.”

Islam preaches brotherhood, peace and kindness among one another. It is a path for unity. This cannot be refuted. I do not support or advocate Islam... I do not have love or affection or faith or any other form of relationship with Islam. But in Hinduism the cruelties of the Brahmins are so atrocious, cruel, and unbearable like the poison of an ugly cobra. Islam is the only medicine to save Hindus from the poison of the cobra.

EVR in Ina Izhivu Ozhiya Islam Nanmarunthu, in 1947.

If this were true why do we have Shia and Sunni branches in that religion and each one is at war with the other. And why a lebbai muslim will not give his daughter in marriage to a pattani or a rowther muslim in Tamilnadu though they all speak tamil? Does universal brotherhood mean this kind of fratricide/discrimination also?

Conclusion: People are people. They always have reasons to divide themselves into groups and feel superior. This is human nature. At least in Islam there is no competitive victimhood claims from majority of the faith. Brahmins are only the whipping boys who are whipped conveniently to satisfy a felt need for a scape goat for sacrifice in the altar of expediency. Periyar said "But in Hinduism the cruelties of the Brahmins are so atrocious, cruel, and unbearable like the poison of an ugly cobra." He never mentioned the actual fact that it is the dominent middle castes who commit atrocities on dalits. Periyar was a naicker and his loyalty to his caste was total. Please read his opinions on the Kilvenmony riots in which poor dalit agricultural labourers were burnt alive by Naidu landlords. It will be quite revealing.

Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

If this were true why do we have Shia and Sunni branches in that religion and each one is at war with the other. And why a lebbai muslim will not give his daughter in marriage to a pattani or a rowther muslim in Tamilnadu though they all speak tamil? Does universal brotherhood mean this kind of fratricide/discrimination also?

No one cared abt all this at that time -- all people wanted to do was to escape untouchability.

Conclusion: People are people. They always have reasons to divide themselves into groups and feel superior. This is human nature. At least in Islam there is no competitive victimhood claims from majority of the faith. Brahmins are only the whipping boys who are whipped conveniently to satisfy a felt need for a scape goat for sacrifice in the altar of expediency. Periyar said "But in Hinduism the cruelties of the Brahmins are so atrocious, cruel, and unbearable like the poison of an ugly cobra." He never mentioned the actual fact that it is the dominent middle castes who commit atrocities on dalits. Periyar was a naicker and his loyalty to his caste was total. Please read his opinions on the Kilvenmony riots in which poor dalit agricultural labourers were burnt alive by Naidu landlords. It will be quite revealing.

Cheers.

Proof please?

Anyways, this is a lie which you repeat time and again. Unfortunately there are no takers and suckers for it. Not even Krishnammal Jagannathan will beleive you.

 

[suraju06]

No one cared abt all this at that time -- all people wanted to do was to escape untouchability.

(1)Yes thinking individuals wanted to eradicate untouchability. This included MKGandhi and Vaidyanathaiyer of Madurai-to quote just two. While Gandhi's concern for eradicating untouchability is well known, Madurai produced Mr. Kakkan who became a minister in Kamaraj cabinet in Tamilnadu. While an Iyer in Madurai had the time and mind to cultivate, bring up and promote a harijan Kakkan to high position Mr. EVR Naicker , who is called a great revolutionary did not have the good will/concern towards dalits to do that kind of a thing.

(2)Naickers and Naidus as well as all other powerful middle castes practised untouchability in Tamilnadu. The ranting here in the post above gives an impression as if untouchability was practised exclusively by brahmins. If EVR Naicker wanted to eradicate untouchability he should have talked against the majority castes in Hindu society which he did not. He was scared of loosing support.

Proof please?

Please read Viduthalai, the mouth piece of EVR Naicker published on the relevant date of Kilvenmony incidents. You will get the info.

Anyways, this is a lie which you repeat time and again. Unfortunately there are no takers and suckers for it. Not even Krishnammal Jagannathan will beleive you.

I don't care what you call me. I do not want to enter into an argument with you as you are known to derail every civilised discussion and drag to abysmally low levels with your comments using dirty words. Who are you to determine the veracity of my statements here? What is your qualification to do that? I am glad that people who agree with me are not suckers. May be you know only suckers(as they agree with everything you say) and perhaps you enjoy their company. I do not intend to reply any more as you may drag me to the level of a 'kuzhayadi chandai' in which you excell ( I am reminded of your favorite epithet "Echakkalai" which you used against a member in this forum on an earlier occasion. Enough is enough. Pothumda saami. I am sorry I have to write all this. I hope our Moderator takes note of this member's audacity in crossing limits frequently. By the way who is this Krishnammal Jagannaathan? Please enlighten if you can without using dirty words.

Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

Raju,

If you allege, it is your responsibility to produce the relevant speech / writings by EVR on the kizhvenmeni incident. Just by insulting you cannot get away with a lie. Its a surprise you keep touting the kizhvenmeni incident but do not know who is krishnammal jagannathan. That shows how much you know about the kizhvenmeni incident.

 

[C RAVI]

My liking of post #67 is excluding the concluding comments about HH.

 

[Nara]

My liking of post #67 is excluding the concluding comments about HH.

The concluding comments reveal more about the poster than Happy, totally unnecessary for the topic being discussed.

 

[Nara]

... By the way who is this Krishnammal Jagannaathan? Please enlighten if you can without using dirty words.
.

Anyone who does not know who Krishnammal Jagannaathan is has no business commenting on Keelvenmani incident. Google her name and try to find out who this alternative-Nobel prize winner is.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Anyone who does not know who Krishnammal Jagannaathan is has no business commenting on Keelvenmani incident. Google her name and try to find out who this alternative-Nobel prize winner is.

Cheers!

Mr. Nara,

I expected you to jump into the fray as usual. I know where your sympathies lie. But then My asking the question about K.Jagannathan had a purpose. From the original poster's and your reply I got what I wanted-a commitment. I will reply to the points raised here about kilvenmony later. Please wait for that.

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

Mr. Nara,

I expected you to jump into the fray as usual. I know where your sympathies lie. But then My asking the question about K.Jagannathan had a purpose. From the original poster's and your reply I got what I wanted-a commitment. I will reply to the points raised here about kilvenmony later. Please wait for that.

Cheers.

Raju, please don't waste your time on my account. I am not giving any commitment to you. I don't expect any useful exchange with you, so I will not be responding to the post you are promising.

Also note, I jumped in to express my appreciation to Ravi for dissociating himself from your last para of unnecessary vile, and also to pointout that not knowing who JK is shows how ill informed you are on this subject.

peace and out

 

[happyhindu]

This is a nice interview for readers -- "India's Soul" - Krishnammal Jagannathan Awarded Right Livelihood for Realizing "Gandhian Vision of Social Justice and Sustainable Human Development"

Please note who owned the lands. In other words, the farmers were still slaves long after the cholas, pallavas, cheras, pandyas, vijayanagar, nayaks, marathas, british -- in a free democratic india.

 

[Iyer]

i feel when we see the humans in each other and learn to love everyone as your own the feeling of seperate identity will just cease to exists.

the one and only truth. Rightly said. I appreciate renuka. After all who made identities!! The only true identity of ourselves is; we are humans beings first; and human beings last. Rest are illusion.

Iyer