Caraka Shapath..

[Suresh ente sure]

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Nothing is foolish.
We have to understand that not all males have self control and not all women speak the truth.
So its for the best interest of male practiotioners and for the best interest of the female patient to have a chaperone.

The Caraka Shapath surely intended to protect a female patient from a unscrupulous male practiotioner and also to protect a virtous male practiotioner from an unscrupulous female patient.

A doctor has to even ask consent to examine a patient before we touch a patient.
A patient can at any time refuse or even accuse a doctor of forcing them to be examined or even take treatment.

Thats why we have AOR forms( at your own risk forms) ready for the patient to sign if they refuse treatment.

Let me give another example.
Once when I was working in a government hospital, my co-doc,a male doctor had to do an ultrasound for a pregnant female patient who had come alone.

But so happen that day the nurses at the hospital were very busy attending bus accident cases.
So the male doc could not get a nurse to stand by the female patient,..he then asked me to stand by the patient till he was done doing the ultrasound.

So I played the role of a chaperone for him.

Thats the rules for a male doc.

It called blatant sexism. I agree certain male doc conduct is questionable . To tell male doctor admiring while pregnant women is labouring nothing more sexism.

 

[renuka]

It called blatant sexism. I agree certain male doc conduct is questionable . To tell male doctor admiring while pregnant women is labouring nothing more sexism.

Its not sexism.
Its also to protect the male doctor from false claims by the patients.
Some women claim all sorts of things that never happened.

If a male patient needs any examination that requires him to undress, majority of female docs( me included) examine the patient only with a nurse.
Reason is at times some males misbehave and also some males falsely accuse a female doc too.

So its not sexism.
Its having a nurse as a witness for safety of both doc and patients.

 

[thebigthinkg]

There is no waste of time.
The law is the law.

For eg in self defense one can fight off and even kill someone who is trying to kill us and it wont fall under murder.
It only applies in cases of self defense.
Would we want to say its a waste of time that we are allowed to kill someone under self defense but not allowed to kill someone otherwise?

Just say in case of statutory rape.
A girl's birthday is August 5th and she would turn 16 yrs of age.
Just say on August 4th she consents to sex with an adult..it is still considered rape.
But if she consented sex on August 5th, then its consensual sex.

Would you say its a waste of time?

The rules in a Democratic country will be different under Emergency Ordinance( parliament dissolved), would you say its a waste of time?


Anyway, I have already explained all ethics in my posts.

May be you should try to paste the Charak Shapath original text in Sanskrit and then all can try to understand what do the words really say.

Btw Charaka Shapath is Hindu culture.
It keeps with the idea that Hindu culture in the past had the following people to accompany her

1) if unmarried, her parents
2) if married, her husband
3) if widowed, her son/ daughter in law
4) if widowed and no kids, a relative.

Not sure which 'law' you are referring to. If you can refer to the Indian medical 'laws' or 'ethics' you are talking about, it would be great self-education. AFAIK, there is no such prohibition based on gender in any Indian medical practices till now.

This is the caraka samhita Roga-bhIsag-jItIya sthana

Rogabhishagjitiya Vimana

Vimana Sthana Chapter 8. Methods of conquering debate and disease

www.carakasamhitaonline.com

Even in Caraka samhita, it's not an oath. It states students agree to guru's words and if they don't follow, Guru removes them. An oath means a medical professional is bound by that and such an oath makes sense is the point. It seems to be a stupid copy from the past without knowing the difference.

Talking about cultures, while I agree some people may want to live with thoughts and values that existed at different points of time in the past, sanatana dharmic culture is about having diversity of thoughts, discussing, debating, evolving new knowledge, tools, living ways, newer traditions/practices etc. In general, it's not about hanging onto a past, as it does not have one specific past.

 

[renuka]

Not sure which 'law' you are referring to. If you can refer to the Indian medical 'laws' or 'ethics' you are talking about, it would be great self-education. AFAIK, there is no such prohibition based on gender in any Indian medical practices till now.

This is the caraka samhita Roga-bhIsag-jItIya sthana

Rogabhishagjitiya Vimana

Vimana Sthana Chapter 8. Methods of conquering debate and disease

www.carakasamhitaonline.com

Even in Caraka samhita, it's not an oath. It states students agree to guru's words and if they don't follow, Guru removes them. An oath means a medical professional is bound by that and such an oath makes sense is the point. It seems to be a stupid copy from the past without knowing the difference.

Talking about cultures, while I agree some people may want to live with thoughts and values that existed at different points of time in the past, sanatana dharmic culture is about having diversity of thoughts, discussing, debating, evolving new knowledge, tools, living ways, newer traditions/practices etc. In general, it's not about hanging onto a past, as it does not have one specific past.

I could only quote the ethics in my country.
Though I am registered with the Indian Medical Council since my degree is from India but I didnt practice in India, so no idea if India follows the same ethics as my country.

But nurse chaperone is also practiced in other countries like Singapore and UK.

Not sure of USA.

Some part of culture is still a mode of safety.
Majority of women feel safer when husband or brother or father accompany us.

For eg I dont drive long distance unaccompanied by a male member of the family because in case of any emergency on the highway at least I wont be stranded alone.

Keeping up with times is fine as long personal safety is taken care off.
In some places where I stay women have a special parking bay if they are alone.
The parking lots are situated near the entrance and has security so that women driving to malls alone dont face risks of lonely far car parking bay.

The country I stay in maintains a good blend of modern and cultural practices.
India too has good cultural values for safety of women.
Personal safety is of utmost importance.

 

[renuka]

I asked a doc friend of mine in India.
He said medical ethics states that male medical doctors and male dentists should have a female nurse when examining a female patient but in India most doctors do not routinely follow this as its not enforced unlike other countries.

Anyway..this makes a good read.

Chaperones and plastic surgery practice in India​

Harinatha Sreekar, Shashank Lamba, and Ashish K. Gupta

Additional article information

​

Sir,
In this era of legal and ethical tangles involved in medical practice, documentation as has often been highlited is paramount. The presence of chaperones during intimate physical examination (especially if the patient is of opposite sex) is routinely followed in most centres. The chaperoning policy is influenced by a few medico-legal cases, where doctors, nurses or occasionally patients have behaved inappropriately and such instances are only highlighted by our gossip happy media. The US and British medical associations have the policy of offering chaperones to the patient before examination.[1–3] General guidelines are as follows.

• Female doctors should offer a chaperone to all. In most of the cases, the patient will indicate this is not necessary.
• Male doctors should offer a chaperone to all men. Again, in most of the cases, the patient will indicate this is not necessary.
• Male doctors should have a chaperone when they examine female patients. If a patient objects, they should ascertain the reasons why and consider whether a female colleague should perform the examination.[4]

Such guidelines though effective still have glaring lacunae. Such guidelines are lacking in Indian medico-legal documents.[5] The mere presence of a chaperone is insufficient unless his/her name is documented in the chart. A simple method of doing it is by having a seal which has the Chaperone's signature indicating his/her presence during the examination. Such documentation adds substance in cases of misbehaviour. This is a simple method to prevent false accusations by patients. Such simple methods should be inculcated into teaching medical students during their clinical training and should become a routine practice.

Chaperones and plastic surgery practice in India - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[thebigthinkg]

I asked a doc friend of mine in India.
He said medical ethics states that male medical doctors and male dentists should have a female nurse when examining a female patient but in India most doctors do not routinely follow this as its not enforced unlike other countries.

Anyway..this makes a good read.

Chaperones and plastic surgery practice in India​

Harinatha Sreekar, Shashank Lamba, and Ashish K. Gupta

Additional article information

​

Sir,
In this era of legal and ethical tangles involved in medical practice, documentation as has often been highlited is paramount. The presence of chaperones during intimate physical examination (especially if the patient is of opposite sex) is routinely followed in most centres. The chaperoning policy is influenced by a few medico-legal cases, where doctors, nurses or occasionally patients have behaved inappropriately and such instances are only highlighted by our gossip happy media. The US and British medical associations have the policy of offering chaperones to the patient before examination.[1–3] General guidelines are as follows.

• Female doctors should offer a chaperone to all. In most of the cases, the patient will indicate this is not necessary.
• Male doctors should offer a chaperone to all men. Again, in most of the cases, the patient will indicate this is not necessary.
• Male doctors should have a chaperone when they examine female patients. If a patient objects, they should ascertain the reasons why and consider whether a female colleague should perform the examination.[4]

Such guidelines though effective still have glaring lacunae. Such guidelines are lacking in Indian medico-legal documents.[5] The mere presence of a chaperone is insufficient unless his/her name is documented in the chart. A simple method of doing it is by having a seal which has the Chaperone's signature indicating his/her presence during the examination. Such documentation adds substance in cases of misbehaviour. This is a simple method to prevent false accusations by patients. Such simple methods should be inculcated into teaching medical students during their clinical training and should become a routine practice.

Chaperones and plastic surgery practice in India - PMC

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I could only quote the ethics in my country.
Though I am registered with the Indian Medical Council since my degree is from India but I didnt practice in India, so no idea if India follows the same ethics as my country.

But nurse chaperone is also practiced in other countries like Singapore and UK.

Not sure of USA.

Some part of culture is still a mode of safety.
Majority of women feel safer when husband or brother or father accompany us.

For eg I dont drive long distance unaccompanied by a male member of the family because in case of any emergency on the highway at least I wont be stranded alone.

Keeping up with times is fine as long personal safety is taken care off.
In some places where I stay women have a special parking bay if they are alone.
The parking lots are situated near the entrance and has security so that women driving to malls alone dont face risks of lonely far car parking bay.

The country I stay in maintains a good blend of modern and cultural practices.
India too has good cultural values for safety of women.
Personal safety is of utmost importance.

1. The objection was to 'oath' as it is not possible to maintain in emergency situations.
2. There is no legal or MCI/NMC recommendation afaik on this.

The rest is all individual opinions, is what I can see.

 

[renuka]

1. The objection was to 'oath' as it is not possible to maintain in emergency situations.
2. There is no legal or MCI/NMC recommendation afaik on this.

The rest is all individual opinions, is what I can see.

When the traffic light is red, the law says we have to stop.

If no policeman is at the scene, one may escape and not be summoned for crossing a red traffic light.

If one hits into another person or vehicle while crossing the red traffic light then one lands into trouble.

Likewise legal implications only arise when there is a complaint.

But anyway, I feel you have your mind made up that there is no legal issues..sometimes its blissful not to know.

 

[prasad1]

When the traffic light is red, the law says we have to stop.

If no policeman is at the scene, one may escape and not be summoned for crossing a red traffic light.

If one hits into another person or vehicle while crossing the red traffic light then one lands into trouble.

Likewise legal implications only arise when there is a complaint.

I agree.

But anyway, I feel you have your mind made up that there is no legal issues..sometimes its blissful not to know.

There is no legal issue in the majority of the countries in the free world.
In Muslim countries, they have these archaic laws, that limit what a woman can do.
They have made social norms into laws.
Chaperoning is not a bad practice for the safety of patients and doctors. Just as carrying an umbrella in London is a good practice but it is not mandated.

Washing your hand is a good practice but not mandated or taken a Sapath (Oath on).

 

[renuka]

I agree.


There is no legal issue in the majority of the countries in the free world.
In Muslim countries, they have these archaic laws, that limit what a woman can do.
They have made social norms into laws.
Chaperoning is not a bad practice for the safety of patients and doctors. Just as carrying an umbrella in London is a good practice but it is not mandated.

Washing your hand is a good practice but not mandated or taken a Sapath (Oath on).

Its not about a Muslim country.
Singapore too has the same practice.

A Non Muslim country like UK even records the name of the chaperone.( read the post I posted above).

Malaysia gives full freedom to women, we are not restricted in anything.

In fact USA has different pay/salary for men and women.
Out here for each job the pay is fixed and no gender bias.

I am a bit surprised you are mentioning Muslim country for the 2nd time when the topic is about Caraka Shapath.

Why bring in religion?
Try going to Singapore.
Its a Non Muslim country with laws more rigid than Malaysia.

I usually dont like to say harsh things about other countries.
But when I used to be in India, I noted that law and enforcement is less.


Law enforcement differs from country to country...so its not about being a Muslim or Non Muslim country.

But during the Covid 19 pandemic Malaysians were well adjusted and didnt protest with guns like some other countries.

So its not about religion.
Sometimes too much freedom = lack of discipline( well known in the USA)

 

[Suresh ente sure]

Its not sexism.
Its also to protect the male doctor from false claims by the patients.
Some women claim all sorts of things that never happened.

If a male patient needs any examination that requires him to undress, majority of female docs( me included) examine the patient only with a nurse.
Reason is at times some males misbehave and also some males falsely accuse a female doc too.

So its not sexism.
Its having a nurse as a witness for safety of both doc and patients.

Most south asian country is taboo about gender issue. In modern and regulated sex harassment law have low incidents.i have gone to private and public clinics .the female doctor dont have issue treating male patient without any around. . I see them as doctors and they see as patients.

 

[sravna]

It is not about clinging to the past. If what was said in the past is timeless then why not?

 

[renuka]

Most south asian country is taboo about gender issue. In modern and regulated sex harassment law have low incidents.i have gone to private and public clinics .the female doctor dont have issue treating male patient without any around. . I see them as doctors and they see as patients.

Yes, all see each other well till something goes wrong.
To be on the safer side, its always better for the doctor to keep in mind that a patient is a potential law suit.

 

[prasad1]

Yes, all see each other well till something goes wrong.
To be on the safer side, its always better for the doctor to keep in mind that a patient is a potential law suit.

I fully agree with it. At this time it is sadly true.

But to mandate, it is adding to the cost of medical practice.