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Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medicine

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prasad1

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A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.


Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.


Prosecutors said Tuesday that a decision on charges will be made after they get the results of an autopsy.


Catherine Schaible's attorney, Mythri Jayaraman, cautioned against a rush to judgment, and said the couple are good parents deeply distraught over the loss of another child.


"There are way more questions than answers at this point. We haven't seen the autopsy report. We don't know the cause of death of this child," Jayaraman told The Associated Press. "What we do know is Mr. and Mrs. Schaible are distraught, they are grieving, they are tremendously sad about the loss of their most recent baby."


A man who answered the phone at a listing for Herbert Schaible declined to comment and hung up.


A jury convicted the Schaibles of involuntary manslaughter in the January 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent. The boy's symptoms had included coughing, congestion, crankiness and a loss of appetite. His parents said he was eating and drinking until the last day, and they had thought he was getting better.


The Schaibles were sentenced to 10 years' probation.


At a hearing Monday, a judge told the couple they had violated the terms of their probation, noting the Schaibles had told investigators that they prayed to God to make Brandon well instead of seeking medical attention.


"You did that once, and the consequences were tragic," Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said, according to the Philadelphia Daily News.


Prosecutors on Monday sought to have the couple jailed, but Lerner permitted them to remain free because their seven other children had been placed in foster care.


"He feels they are a danger to their children – not to the community, but to their own children," Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore, who prosecuted the couple in 2010, said Tuesday.


Herbert Schaible, 44, and his 43-year-old wife grew up in the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia and have served as teachers there. The church's website has a sermon titled "Healing – From God or Medicine?" that quotes Bible verses purportedly forbidding Christians from visiting doctors or taking medicine.


"It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills; and it is real faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing," says the message, from last May.


A phone message left with the church on Tuesday was not immediately returned.


The church's pastor said in 2010 that the couple had never received medical care themselves beyond the help of a lay midwife who attends home births.


The Schaibles did take their children for medical checkups as required by their probation, according to Jayaraman, the defense attorney. Jayaraman said that Brandon was checked by a doctor when he was 10 days old, but she did not know whether the child had seen a doctor since.


"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."


I am pretty sure this happens in India. Is it murder?
 
Spiritual healing is definitely possible. I can say that from my first hand experience. It has been many many years since I took medicine. I cure all the health problems like headache, cough , fever myself though I haven't really tried on major diseases. Even very recently I started developing fever, headache, cough which I cured without a single tablet.

I think the mind potentially has got that power and it works for those who have spiritual inclinations.
 
Spiritual healing is definitely possible. I can say that from my first hand experience. It has been many many years since I took medicine. I cure all the health problems like headache, cough , fever myself though I haven't really tried on major diseases. Even very recently I started developing fever, headache, cough which I cured without a single tablet.

I think the mind potentially has got that power and it works for those who have spiritual inclinations.

Dear Sravna,

Simple stuff like cough,cold, headache etc..even I do not take medication and it goes off on its own but I would NOT recommend anyone depending 100% on spiritual healing without consulting a doctor.

I have enough nut case parents who did not allow even their children to be vaccinated cos they felt that that goes against the will of God and child ended up getting a severe bout of measles with complications...but the father of the child when he developed an Erectile Dysfunction came running to the clinic and asked for medication..so I told him to take it as a will of God!

I cant imagine he denies his child vaccination but expects me to prescribe Viagra!LOL

So you see its better for a so called spiritual inclined person to view even medical treatment as a way to cure themselves when they are ill.

The problem with some so called religious people is they compartmentalize God and view science as anti God.

They are no different from dumb scientists who say there is no God and only science rules!

Scientists are willing to accept that dinosaurs were plain brown or beige in color when for all we know dinosaurs could have been Polka Dot!LOL


images


One can also try spiritual healing at the same time or as a last resort.

When I read cases where people leave everything to God and do not use their brains(that is totally inaction.. Tamas!) I am reminded of the wisdom of a tribal girl who had visited the rural clinic I used to work in before in 1998.

The nurses were poking fun at her cos she had no official religion.

They asked her if you are sick who will you pray too?

She was only some aged 17 or 18..and she replied "When I am sick..God tells me to go to the doctor"
 
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Dear Renuka,

I am not suggesting that one should not go to the doctor when one gets ill. That would be risky. But when it works, spiritual healing is very powerful and can cure the health problems more permanently and without the side effects of the medicines. Spiritual healing addresses the causes better than the modern medicines do and so in cases where it works it is a better choice.

But again I strongly caution any one resorting to spiritual healing alone in place of the medicines because there are very few authentic persons that can make spiritual healing work.
 
But again I strongly caution any one resorting to spiritual healing alone in place of the medicines because there are very few authentic persons that can make spiritual healing work.

Dear Sravna,

Once I saw a spiritual healer for some problem where no doctor could find the cause.

When the spiritual healer found out that I am a doctor he told me "Doc I must come and see you one of these days..cos my diabetes is not well controlled"

So you see..even a spiritual healer knows there are somethings only a doctor can help and obviously as a doctor I know there are some things only a God can cure.
 
Dear Sravna,

Truly spiritual people view everything as from God/Higher Force.

I had once a Tibetian Buddhist monk as a patient.

He was a friend of my father's friend and he was not feeling well and came to my clinic.

Firstly the monk was so so respectful that I felt shy to receive all the respect and praises for medical profession he was giving me.


He was saying that Buddha shows the path to everything and to respect a doctor and was bowing several times in front of me

I felt I really did not deserve all that cos I am just a normal human and he was a monk..so I touched his feet to reciprocate the respect he was giving me.

So you see..I am not trying to say doctors are great and know everything(some are idiots..me included) but the truly spiritual don't try to shy away from medical treatment.
 
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Dear Renuka,

The difference is at what level you are treating the patient. In modern medicine you treat based on the physical symptoms which you consider as having physical origins. But physical being the surface of what is spiritual, you can directly treat at the spiritual level in a spiritual healing. So the underlying problems get addressed better and since you are treating at a more fundamental level, the unwanted side effects are not there.

If you ask whether major problems can be addressed by spiritual healing, I think in theory it should be possible and depends on the spiritual power of the person. This is because God as a spiritual healer can solve any problem.
 
Dear Renuka,

The difference is at what level you are treating the patient. In modern medicine you treat based on the physical symptoms which you consider as having physical origins. But physical being the surface of what is spiritual, you can directly treat at the spiritual level in a spiritual healing. So the underlying problems get addressed better and since you are treating at a more fundamental level, the unwanted side effects are not there.

Dear Sravna,

You see the Physical Body is meant to function at the Physical Level and its ailments are meant to be treated at the Physical Level too.

Ok lets get a simple>

Ok we all know that the Atma is ever pure and can not be tainted..so in that case does that mean we do not need to bathe??

Cos one can argue that even with a dirty physical body the atma is ever pure.

So you see...the point I am getting at?

Physical Body is meant for us to use it right to realize the Atma within eventually and it is our duty to maintain it well and tend to it when we are sick.

After all even Ayurveda treats the Physical Body ailments too.

Ayurveda isn't Spiritual healing alone.

Logically in this world everything is done at a physical level even for a spiritual outcome.

Take a Homa for example..the Homa is done to reach the Devas via Agni to heaven.

The Homa fire is physical..the grains/ghee/items put into the fire is physical and the smoke you see is also physical.
The mantras recited too are physical(thru vibration of vocal cords).

So Srvana...to reach even a spiritual level(if it exists) one needs to go thru the Physical path first.
 
Dear Renuka,

My point is that you can have a direct access to the spiritual. Even if the homa and the mantras recited are done in a physical way, these can have access to what is beneath the physical unlike in the case of medicines which have access only to the physical parts.

That is the point I was trying to make.
 
This will not happen in India.

I have not heard of any Hindu who does not go to a Doctor because he believes that Mantras or Prayers will cure his children.

Hindus do not have the kind of faith exhibited by the Evangelical Christians. May be in some remote villages. But very rare. Even if one does it, it would be as an individual and not as a part of an organized group like the Christians. The Americans are far more religious than the Indians.
 
Dear Renuka,

My point is that you can have a direct access to the spiritual. Even if the homa and the mantras recited are done in a physical way, these can have access to what is beneath the physical unlike in the case of medicines which have access only to the physical parts.

That is the point I was trying to make.

Dear Sravna,

Ok lets play spiritual doctor.

How do you treat a case of Type I Diabetes( where the cells of the pancreas are unable to produce Insulin)

Physical doctor will recommend Insulin Therapy.

Now what will Spiritual Doctor recommend??
 
This will not happen in India.

I have not heard of any Hindu who does not go to a Doctor because he believes that Mantras or Prayers will cure his children.

Hindus do not have the kind of faith exhibited by the Evangelical Christians. May be in some remote villages. But very rare. Even if one does it, it would be as an individual and not as a part of an organized group like the Christians. The Americans are far more religious than the Indians.

Dear Sir,

I agree with you.

Most Hindus use logic cos we do have the concept to treat animate and inanimate objects as members of God's kingdom.

So the Hindu does not look at medical science as anti- God.

Where else some members of other religions confine God only to heaven with a strict dualistic view.
 
Dear Renuka,

I have my own theory for spiritual cure. The basics I follow are:

In my view there is a hierarchy of spiritual forces operating at the following levels:

(1) Maya
(2) Karma
(3) Planetary influences

Maya operates at the highest level and the planetary influences at the lowest level. Planets directly affect all the aspects of human beings starting from his general well being in the current birth upto contributing to his progress towards moksha. However planetary influences are driven by higher forces such as Karma and above it maya.

Now let us consider what the planets affect. Represented by the 12 houses the horoscope exerts influence on all aspects of one's life. Different planets at different times and to different extent are responsible for these influences.

When we consider of something as a problem, say a health problem, it is mainly because the spiritual aspect which represents connectedness is reduced and the physical aspect which represents disconnectedness is increased in what is affected. To set right the problem we need to increase the connectedness of what is affected. This can be done by the spiritual energy of the mind . Just as physical energy disintegrates something, spiritual energy has the capacity to integrate.

So when the mind focuses on the affected part and thinks that it regains the necessary interconnections to function properly, it works. This method I believe can be put to use to any aspect of one's life represented by the 12 houses in a horoscope. The effectiveness of the method depends on how spiritual the mind is and so what level of spiritual force it can access.

The above is the basics I use to solve a problem. I have not seriously sought to solve problems but have most used it for health problems with great success.
 
Dear Sravna,

As far as I know sufferings in this world is supposed to be of 3 types:

1)Adhyatmika...sufferings due to one's own mind and body

2)Adi-Bhautika....sufferings due to other living beings.

3)Adi Daivika.....sufferings due to natural circumstances and disasters.


1st type >>>Adyatmika..see a doctor

2nd type.>>>>> Adi Bhautika..try to remove the causative factor

3rd type>>>> Adi Daivika...can't do much in the real sense of it.


I fail to see how Maya influences planets and spiritual cure.
 
Dear Sravna,

As far as I know sufferings in this world is supposed to be of 3 types:

1)Adhyatmika...sufferings due to one's own mind and body

2)Adi-Bhautika....sufferings due to other living beings.

3)Adi Daivika.....sufferings due to natural circumstances and disasters.


1st type >>>Adyatmika..see a doctor

2nd type.>>>>> Adi Bhautika..try to remove the causative factor

3rd type>>>> Adi Daivika...can't do much in the real sense of it.


I fail to see how Maya influences planets and spiritual cure.


Whatever happens in this physical world is due to maya ultimately . If you can remove the influence of maya on something, you can get rid of the physical effects. But of course, brahman alone can influence maya. I mentioned it only to put things in perspective.
 
Whatever happens in this physical world is due to maya ultimately . If you can remove the influence of maya on something, you can get rid of the physical effects. But of course, brahman alone can influence maya. I mentioned it only to put things in perspective.

Dear Sravna,

None of us can even know the origin of Maya..so how can we remove the influence of Maya on anything?
 
Dr. Renuka, I am Rishikesan to this Forum. I read whatever is written by you in this forum, especially of to-day about cure spiritually, instead of Medicines. Your views are identical to mine.Since you are a Doctor, presumably for Diabetic, can I have the privilege of having your expertise for my wife , who is a Diabetic. I do not know how to talk to you , because it cannot be discussed here. I live in Chennai/ Kodambakkam. Please advise.
Sincerely,
A.Srinivasan & Mrs Janaki
 
Dr. Renuka, I am Rishikesan to this Forum. I read whatever is written by you in this forum, especially of to-day about cure spiritually, instead of Medicines. Your views are identical to mine.Since you are a Doctor, presumably for Diabetic, can I have the privilege of having your expertise for my wife , who is a Diabetic. I do not know how to talk to you , because it cannot be discussed here. I live in Chennai/ Kodambakkam. Please advise.
Sincerely,
A.Srinivasan & Mrs Janaki

Dear Sir,

I am General Practitioner (GP) that is considered a Jack of All Trades and Master of None in the medical world!LOL

Ok what I mean is I am a Primary Care Physician where I see General cases like common ailments,diabetes, hypertension,follow up pregnancies,ultrasound, general health screening,simple surgical procedures etc.

Any cases beyond my scope of knowledge is referred to a specialist.

Severe uncontrolled Diabetes is usually followed up by a Endrocrinologist and a GP just monitors the progress and changes the dose of medication if needed.

You can PM me...but I am not a specialist.
 
This will not happen in India.

I have not heard of any Hindu who does not go to a Doctor because he believes that Mantras or Prayers will cure his children.

Hindus do not have the kind of faith exhibited by the Evangelical Christians. May be in some remote villages. But very rare. Even if one does it, it would be as an individual and not as a part of an organized group like the Christians. The Americans are far more religious than the Indians.

I would not term term idiocy as religious. There are extremist in all religion. In western countries (USA Norway etc) one would be prosecuted, In India it may go unreported.

Faith healers and temple doctors are by far the most socially acceptable way to try to cure mental illness in India. There are hardly any psychiatrists — and a mere 37 mental institutions to serve the country's whole population of 1.2 billion.
But even if there were more professionals, it might not matter. Psychiatrists compete not with each other but with healers and gurus.

In India death (read Murder) of a child due to parental neglect, or abuse is routine and is not considered a crime. What you say may be true of average educated urban population.

There are two post dealing with snake bite and epilepsy in this site where learned members of this site argued against treatment instead they wanted prayers and some magic.
 
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In 1970 I was working for an organization which had branches in Kerala. Most of the employees were Christians because our top people were Christians and preferred to choose them.

Now during seminars the executives from Kerala used to tell us some interesting incidents about the staff.

One of the Kerala Christians refused to take his daughter to the doctor when she fell ill because it went against his belief. He was one of those Christians who talked to GOD every day. This was noticed by his neighbours and friends. It was reported to his boss. His Boss and friends took the daughter to the doctor overriding his objection.

This is India. There was a thread about Narayana Murthy talking about the Indian's disregard for privacy. Here in India we do not have the state to care for us. But neighbours and friend take care of people. The neighbours and friends step in when there is a danger to the child.

This used to happen in U.S and U.K also when people stayed in villages and towns. You can read about it in Miss. Marple mysteries. Urbanization put an end to that.
 
This will not happen in India.

I have not heard of any Hindu who does not go to a Doctor because he believes that Mantras or Prayers will cure his children.

Hindus do not have the kind of faith exhibited by the Evangelical Christians. May be in some remote villages. But very rare. Even if one does it, it would be as an individual and not as a part of an organized group like the Christians. The Americans are far more religious than the Indians.

Some of my friends who are evangelical christians visit doctors when sick or ill. They do not agree that one must get cured only by faith. Neither do they agree that one must not visit a doc when sick. During the times of Jesus, medical science had not developed in Israel and hence people had to resort to faith healing perhaps. However since medical science had advanced there is no harm in consulting a doc. After all is it not God who is omniscient, who is the source of all knowledge, who gave man the knowledge of medicines to diagnore and cure diseases? Even the ancient Israelites used balms (parimala thailam) for healing. It is God who is the ultimate healer but through the medicines.

My evangelical christian friends pointed to an episode in Bible, when a blind man approached Jesus for restoration of sight, Jesus took a pinch of sand, spat on it, made a paste of it and applied it on his eyes and the blind man's sight was restored.

The account in John 9 : "As [Jesus] went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?'
‘Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus, ‘but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no man can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.' Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. ‘Go,' he told him, ‘wash in the pool of Siloam' (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing."
(John 9:1-7)
 
Hi,

I like all true Docs. For any emergency they are our gods. Having said that,

i wonder, what we were doing before the English medicine stepped in. I avoid English Medicine. During my recent episode of nasal congestion and cough i was forced to consult an ENT by my wife, who gave medicine for 3+3 days. It worsened and invited for another round. Finally i went to Kshayam and podi from an iyarkkai Doc who is a PhD in his field. I was slowly but surely cured in 15 days. Feel more better.

Since I am not religious enough, I had to go to the Doc.

I am impressed by this
http://anatomictherapy.org/tamilbookdownload.html.


Regards
 
To me spiritual energy seems to be a reality. It is necessary that we have an open mind and adopt systematic approaches to enquire into that possibility. At present we are aware only with the concept of force that is associated with energy. If spiritual energy is a reality we will have a revolutionary understanding of energy and a we will know a totally new facet to it.

After all real scientific progress is made by identifying and enquiring into what seems unlikely but in reality hides profound truths beneath what seems to be the prima facie truth. I think spiritual energy is a major discovery in the waiting and can fundamentally change the course of mankind for the better. It has all round implications especially the vindication of what our scriptures have been all along saying about the existence of an ultimate reality.

I think a number of contradictions that beset modern science and modern knowledge in general will be satisfactorily addressed if we take into consideration the existence of spiritual energy.
 
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