Culture-some questions

[kr subramanian]

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Dear Friends,
In many books we have studies that culture is transferred from generation to generation and it is in the blood. We are also having a saying that a King`s son (Royal Blood) will have that qualities and he is (only) eligible to rule etc etc. Similarly a brahmin boy learns fast as the blood is of a brahmin etcetc.

Our forefathers (may be more than 10 generations) had the culture and traditions maintained by them. ie. it is in our blood.

British (foreign rulers)had ruled us for two hundred years (say for 2 to 3 generations)

1. Now how it comes that we are entirely forgetting our past and blindley following western culture
2. is our culture so vulnerable that it changes within one or two genrations?
3. Even in animals even after many genrations they have not changed their quality of life? HOw it changes in mankind?

 

[RVR]

India was suppose to be one of the wealthiest countries on earth before British Invasion.

India before British Invasion – Dharampal’s findings « Senthilraja’s blog

http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/

Please go through the above and conclude what damage British invasion has done us.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri.K.R.Subramaniam,

Greetings. 1. When you say we are entirely forgetting our past and blindly follow western culture, I am not able to quite agree with that. As I see it, 'we' is just one person; the past is just 'that person's' past. It is the environment and exposure that makes one's psyche. For example, my son was born and grew up 7 years in India; he was schooled entirely in Australia. His psyche is very different to mine. His perception is very different. His sister is all Australian; her perception is yet more different. Now, about the 'western culture'.....there is no such thing; not for my children anyway. So, my point is, the whole thing depends upon one's perception.

2. It depends upon what you see as 'culture'. The whole thing is like a matrix, keeps changing all the time. Like Sri.Kunjuppu once mentioned, the ones who are flexible adapt to the changes while retaining most of their originality; the ones who are rigid refuse to accept any change, but eventually gets uprooted by the changes.

3.The animals may not need to change. May be they are quite content in the way they live. They have no stress; they hardly grow old, for, before they really become old, they become dinner to their predators...we don't really know about the animals, do we? We have really upset the balance in the animal kingdom, anyway.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

India before British Invasion – Dharampal’s findings « Senthilraja’s blog

DHARAMPAL's India

<edited>

This particular blog is full of opinions and half truths. There were some out and out falsehoods as well. Here is one:

Today’s backward classes or Sudras cultural and economic backwardness is post 1800 due to impact of British economic policies.
​

This is the reason one has to dig up the past and show what the truth really is, otherwise, these unabashed casteists like the author of this blog will rewrite history, and find enough takers to nod their heads vigorously, and applaud enthusiastically, in motivated agreement. There is enough evidence to show that untouchability and horrendous caste-based oppression existed long before Britain was even a nation state.

Having said all this, I can offer some help that is just not some opinionated blog, to anyone wanting to do some chest pounding about India's past glory. Here is an article from The Independent Newspaper of UK that appeared on July 27, just before PM Cameron's visit to India.

Indian summer: the twilight of British influence in India - Asia, World - The Independent

It looks like even 500 years ago, China was beating India in production!!

 

[sangom]

Sri.K.R.Subramaniam,

Greetings. 1. When you say we are entirely forgetting our past and blindly follow western culture, I am not able to quite agree with that. As I see it, 'we' is just one person; the past is just 'that person's' past. It is the environment and exposure that makes one's psyche. For example, my son was born and grew up 7 years in India; he was schooled entirely in Australia. His psyche is very different to mine. His perception is very different. His sister is all Australian; her perception is yet more different. Now, about the 'western culture'.....there is no such thing; not for my children anyway. So, my point is, the whole thing depends upon one's perception.

2. It depends upon what you see as 'culture'. The whole thing is like a matrix, keeps changing all the time. Like Sri.Kunjuppu once mentioned, the ones who are flexible adapt to the changes while retaining most of their originality; the ones who are rigid refuse to accept any change, but eventually gets uprooted by the changes.

3.The animals may not need to change. May be they are quite content in the way they live. They have no stress; they hardly grow old, for, before they really become old, they become dinner to their predators...we don't really know about the animals, do we? We have really upset the balance in the animal kingdom, anyway.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

I feel that this oft-sighted lament about our culture and its perceived loss arises out of a misplaced world view and sheer ignorance about Indian social and religious history. We (here I confine my comments to TBs only) think we had some culture which has remained unchanged for generations and just now in the recent times everything has gone topsy-turvy because western culture has swallowed / is fast swallowing ours!

People who believe so, conveniently forget that they must have surely appeared to their grandparents, separated by 50 or 60 years, in almost the same way. It would have been the same as we go further into the past. It is just a myth that our so-called "culture" has been unaffected till the present.

I would like to mention one or two examples from my personal knowledge here to illustrate this. My wife's grandmother used to be critical about my mother-in-law not wearing மடிசார் புடவை and used to lament that the old ஆசாரானுஷ்டானங்கள் have been lost and every one is becoming fashionable like சினிமாக்காரி. There were certain orthodox old people in my knowledge who were very much critical about the then younger generation removing their குடுமி and felt that we were imitating the வெள்ளைக்காரன்.

As I wrote in another post in this forum we want so many things which are the products of western thinking and culture but lament all the same. If you ask these people what it is that we have lost, they will at best be able to cite examples like not doing sandhyavandanam, not observing some of the religious holy days, not knowing how to wear பஞ்சகச்சம் and மடிசார் புடவை, etc., which are not the central themes of culture, but only some outward symbols.

It has become a common practice to lament like this and try to put the blame on to some one like the British, Mughals, etc. These people should think why it was that we could be conquered by ever so many foreign invaders right from the Kushanas. Was it not due to some inherent weakness in our culture that our country could be invaded so easily and subjugated? If so would such culture be able to sustain itself? Like Darwin's evolution theory, the law of "survival of the fittest" applies to cultures also. Only those cultures will last which continuously adapt, adopt and grow, just like languages. Sanskrit became a moribund language exactly because it became ossified. Part of our heritage (not culture) perished on account of that, IMO.

 

[RVR]

Folks, any Tom, Dick, and Harry can start a blog and write whatever is in his/her mind. All it takes is an internet connection and some free time. Other than the blogs that have earned the reputation for factually accurate presentation, it is best to look at all other blogs with a heavy dose of skepticism.

This particular blog is full of opinions and half truths. There were some out and out falsehoods as well. Here is one:

Today’s backward classes or Sudras cultural and economic backwardness is post 1800 due to impact of British economic policies.
​

This is the reason one has to dig up the past and show what the truth really is, otherwise, these unabashed casteists like the author of this blog will rewrite history, and find enough takers to nod their heads vigorously, and applaud enthusiastically, in motivated agreement. There is enough evidence to show that untouchability and horrendous caste-based oppression existed long before Britain was even a nation state.

Having said all this, I can offer some help that is just not some opinionated blog, to anyone wanting to do some chest pounding about India's past glory. Here is an article from The Independent Newspaper of UK that appeared on July 27, just before PM Cameron's visit to India.

Indian summer: the twilight of British influence in India - Asia, World - The Independent

It looks like even 500 years ago, China was beating India in production!!

Prof Nara,

Dharmapal is an eminent Historian specialized in British period and his work is not just `another blog'

Dharampal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/

He is not a Tom, Dick and Harry and is a follower of Gandhian philosophy.

You may not agree with his research work but I earnestly feel that he deserves better respect

All the best

 

[sravna]

The chasm in the philosophy of ancient India and that of the West is real and undeniable. Whereas the ancient Indians strongly emphasized self control , the west by and large is oriented towards hedonistic philosophy at least the current generations.

I think there is an inherent merit in the philosophy that advocates restraint and in those who follow it and pass on such values. The damage done by unrestrained minds is there for all to see. People are more obsessed with the results unmindful of whether the means is right or not. In such a world morality suffers which is not conducive for the well-being of an individual, nation or even the world.

I do not think we need to be modest about our culture or worse still derisive as the need of the hour is exactly such a prescription.

 

[RVR]

I don't know why some people are not willing accept the talents our ancestors had even 2000 years back

I just want to bring to the attention of our members about the organised irrigation system we had adopted in the Cauvery Delta region way back in the 2nd Century BC.

Great `Karikal Cholan' constructed a dam across river Cauvery known as `Grand Anicut' in the second century BC.

Karikala Chola - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grand Anicut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The dam is still available across river Cauvery near Trichy and has withstood all the floods and other natural calamities for more than two thousand years.

If we look into the whole thing, it is an engineerig/technical marvelous of the world. It involves engineering design, material science and construction technologies. We are seeing present day dams and bridges across rivers cracking after few years of construction but this particular dam seems to have eternal life. These new dams and bridges which are cracking now are basically done with the engineering designs and construction taught to us by the British.

Again water management techniques adopted by our ancestors is something unimaginable. Storing water in a dam during rainy days & avoiding flood/damage in the downstream areas during rainy days and at the same time using the same water for irrigation in the down stream area is a wonderful concept conceived as early as 2200 years back.

Our weavers have made `Dacca Muslin Sarees' which can go through a finger ring without the modern spinning and weaving machines.

Jamdani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These sarees seems to have origin much before 3rd Century BC.

I wonder weather the present day westerners were wearing clothes at that time.

All these technicians (probably considered `Sudras' as per Varnashram Dharma) made us proud of our culture and tradition. Without patronization from other communities, their skill would not have developed to such high level of precision. If they were living in poverty and worked under exploited conditions, they would not have achieved such marvelous heights in their skills.

Who destroyed all these talents. British or Moghuls or somebody else?

All the best

 

[sangom]

The chasm in the philosophy of ancient India and that of the West is real and undeniable. Whereas the ancient Indians strongly emphasized self control , the west by and large is oriented towards hedonistic philosophy at least the current generations.

It looks to me as if you are trying to avoid a straight comparison between the philosophies of the east and the west on a one-to-one basis, and that is why the wiggling out of "at least the current generations". Is it not right that the western "philosophy" itself was not advocating hedonism, but " the highest good for the largest number" was there, perhaps.

I think there is an inherent merit in the philosophy that advocates restraint and in those who follow it and pass on such values. The damage done by unrestrained minds is there for all to see. People are more obsessed with the results unmindful of whether the means is right or not. In such a world morality suffers which is not conducive for the well-being of an individual, nation or even the world.

Concepts like restraint do not seem to be exemplified by our religious lore. Take the example of Krishna and the gopis, Dasaratha and his thousand wives, Parasurama's unrestrained wrath against the Kshatriyas as a whole, Krishna and Arjuna helping Agni in burning down the entire Khandava vana and Krishna & Arjuna seeing to it that not a living thing escapes from it, Hanuman - only a messenger and therefore not allowed by dharma to do what he wants, except obey the orders of Rama - burning down almost all of Lanka, the examples are many. Where was the philosophy of restraint in all these cases?

I do not think we need to be modest about our culture or worse still derisive as the need of the hour is exactly such a prescription.

When someone utters the truth that the emperor is without clothes, the emperor may take it as derision, or, if he is sagacious and restrained, will see the truth of the utterance.

 

[anandb]

Dear Shri Raghy,

I feel that this oft-sighted lament about our culture and its perceived loss arises out of a misplaced world view and sheer ignorance about Indian social and religious history. We (here I confine my comments to TBs only) think we had some culture which has remained unchanged for generations and just now in the recent times everything has gone topsy-turvy because western culture has swallowed / is fast swallowing ours!

People who believe so, conveniently forget that they must have surely appeared to their grandparents, separated by 50 or 60 years, in almost the same way. It would have been the same as we go further into the past. It is just a myth that our so-called "culture" has been unaffected till the present.

I would like to mention one or two examples from my personal knowledge here to illustrate this. My wife's grandmother used to be critical about my mother-in-law not wearing மடிசார் புடவை and used to lament that the old ஆசாரானுஷ்டானங்கள் have been lost and every one is becoming fashionable like சினிமாக்காரி. There were certain orthodox old people in my knowledge who were very much critical about the then younger generation removing their குடுமி and felt that we were imitating the வெள்ளைக்காரன்.

As I wrote in another post in this forum we want so many things which are the products of western thinking and culture but lament all the same. If you ask these people what it is that we have lost, they will at best be able to cite examples like not doing sandhyavandanam, not observing some of the religious holy days, not knowing how to wear பஞ்சகச்சம் and மடிசார் புடவை, etc., which are not the central themes of culture, but only some outward symbols.

It has become a common practice to lament like this and try to put the blame on to some one like the British, Mughals, etc. These people should think why it was that we could be conquered by ever so many foreign invaders right from the Kushanas. Was it not due to some inherent weakness in our culture that our country could be invaded so easily and subjugated? If so would such culture be able to sustain itself? Like Darwin's evolution theory, the law of "survival of the fittest" applies to cultures also. Only those cultures will last which continuously adapt, adopt and grow, just like languages. Sanskrit became a moribund language exactly because it became ossified. Part of our heritage (not culture) perished on account of that, IMO.

Shri. Sangom,

I need to disagree with you on some points. Now what are outward symbols of culture? They are acts, rituals or observances which stem from the culture itself. Our Hindu culture is not just sitting cross legged in meditation and trying to realise the Brahman. It recognizes the fact that people are at different stages of god realization due to purva karma and prescribes different methods for different people. For a lot of people the karmas as prescribed by purva mimamsa have to be performed to discipline the mind before one sets out in the path of Brahman.

Rituals are there in any society. In ours it is more because the emphasis is on god realization at some stage to stop the cycle of birth and deaths. Wearing a panchai or madisar or doing the Sandhya cannot just be dismissed as outward symbols just like wearing a suit and tie to office is part of a Western culture. In fact this is exactly what I think. if someone wears a trouser and comes to chant the Veda, I would say the Western culture has usurped ours.

The other thing I disagree with is that some inherent weakness in our culture made the invaders invade us. From the time mankind came into existence, invasions have happened. A great many civilizations have disappeared into dust if you look at the Sumerians, Egyptians, Roman, Spanish, French, British and possibly the US hegemony in the future. What I will look at is the resilience of the Indians who have still survived the conquests of the Mughals and the Brits.

I think the threat to our culture now is more from within. One can blame Hollywood or McDonalds or Western sitcoms for the erosion of our culture but they are not going to stop doing what they are doing because they exist for profits. The first step is to stop being ashamed of our own culture. I cannot teach my culture to my children if I am ashamed of it. Practices as advocated by present day West is meant to titillate the senses which will be short lived in my opinion. But the problem is if we don't practice our own culture including the outward symbols it will die a sure death soon.

The other thing is we lament Western cultural practices and not the products. So while I would have a LCD TV which is a product of Western thinking and research, I may prefer not to watch a Western or Indian sitcom which corrupts the mind. In the modern day world one cannot shun gadgets and retire as a hermit to the forest though ultimately that should be an aim. To me this is not hypocrisy. I am perfectly comfortable doing Sandhya and watching Angeline Jolie in Salt. The first is for my inner space and the second is for pure entertainment. Of course the idea is as I age to condition the mind in such a way that I don't need the titillating entertainment anymore. What I am totally against is any culture which corrupts the mind doing harm to oneself or others.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

My intention is definitely not to make a comparison between the Western and Eastern philosophies but point out how disowning the core values of our culture and embracing materialism is in fact a regressive step.

Of course we need to adapt ourselves but it is unfortunate when the change that necessitates the adaption is in itself for the worse. Thus my concern here is more fundamental.

The ancient Indians in my opinion had immeasurable foresight in developing the philosophy that they did. This is because the emphasis was on continuous elevation of the mind while taking into account the practical realities.

My point is, if such a system were to be practised universally the world would be a much more harmonious place than it is now.

The least one would expect is a stubborn attack of it in a brahmin forum

 

[anandb]

Having said all this, I can offer some help that is just not some opinionated blog, to anyone wanting to do some chest pounding about India's past glory.

It looks like even 500 years ago, China was beating India in production!!

Shri. Nara,

I don't understand why we should not be chest pounding about India's past glory when it has been acknowledged by experts and Indologists all over the world. I am not going to waste my time giving all those quotes as they are all over the internet. You can also read this book called "A Tribute to Hinduism" quoted extensively by Indologists. No society is without evils. Untouchability and oppression could have existed no doubt but I don't think in horrendous proportions. In fact the present day untouchability and caste evils are probably much more than ancient times. While the Brits gave us a rail network and the English language while the Mughals gave us Dum Biryani and Sufi music, their empires were not exactly examples of benevolence showered upon the Indians. There were definitely areas where ancient Indians excelled in music, poetry, language, literature, arts, sculpture and so on and if I am not proud about this fact and pass this knowledge to my children, I will be doing a great disservice to my Indian ancestry.

On your second quote about China, this is what two prominent Chinese said.

Dr. Lin Yutang (1895-1976, a Chinese scholar and a prolific writer)

-India was China's teacher in religion and imaginative literature and the world's teacher in Trigonometry, Quadratic Equations, Grammer, Phonetics, Arabian Nights, animal fables, chess as well as in philosophy and that she inspired Boccaccio, Goethe, Herder, Schopenhauer, Emerson and probably also old Aesop.

Hu Shih (Former Ambassador of China to USA)

- "India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

My intention is definitely not to make a comparison between the Western and Eastern philosophies but point out how disowning the core values of our culture and embracing materialism is in fact a regressive step.

Of course we need to adapt ourselves but it is unfortunate when the change that necessitates the adaption is in itself for the worse. Thus my concern here is more fundamental.

The ancient Indians in my opinion had immeasurable foresight in developing the philosophy that they did. This is because the emphasis was on continuous elevation of the mind while taking into account the practical realities.

My point is, if such a system were to be practised universally the world would be a much more harmonious place than it is now.

The least one would expect is a stubborn attack of it in a brahmin forum

Despite the philosophy which tried to dvelve into the metaphysical realm, Indian history, both ancient (Mahabharata) and medieval (from Buddha's times), does not give the impression of a harmonious existence of even the different geographical divisions (I don't find a singular word to describe the various transformations it underwent till we come to the "native states" of the British) within Bharata. Only when some particular powerful king (Asoka, Chandragupta II etc.) subjugated different smaller kingdoms, was there a unified kingdom under an 'ekachhatradhipati', and this also broke up in due course of time after the reign of that powerful monarch. Hence I fail to see how the practice of Indian philosophy would be effective in harmoniously blending the world into one.[Incidentally, Chandragupta II (Vikramaditya) is believed to have attacked regions beyond the commonly accepted Bharata boundaries;Parasikas (Persians), then the Hunas and the Kambojas tribes located in the west and east Oxus valleys, and across the Himalaya and the Kinnaras, Kiratas etc. (Hunas destroyed the empire later.) This, besides the Tamil Kings invading Vietnam etc., should be proof against the often heard boast that India had never attacked any foreign country. The fact seems to be that but for these rare occasions, there never was any mighty empire in India capable of invading foreign countries. Thus weakness has now been made into a virtue!]

As you might have observed discussions are not disallowed by the forum.

 

[Nara]

...I don't understand why we should not be chest pounding about India's past glory

Dear Anand, my problem is only with chest pounding based on a white-washed account of the past. When the white-washing is so blatant to the extent of blaming all that ails our society on the British, or the Moguls, or someone else. The problem with this approach is, when it is always somebody else's fault, we can go on without owning up any responsibility and making any amends.

I have no problem with us deriving self-confidence based on a fact based understanding of what all our ancestors achieved in many fields including arts, science, and politics, some of which you have mentioned -- I agree with all of those.

Hope I am clear, Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Your interpretation of harmony is not what I meant. Harmony is realized internally in the mind and externally in the society and Indian philosophy says how both can be achieved. The idea is to identify your talent take up the right vocation and in the process elevate your mind through that fulfilment and climb up the ladder of talent. Every soul has to go through this process. Even if one doesn't believe in souls abnd rebirth this approach still makes perfect practical sense. Dissatisfactions, disillusionments etc. are major causes of today's rampant psychiatric disorders and eventually in societal disorders. These were neatly taken care of by the Indians of the past. Anyway wars are not disallowed as it is in many cases becomes a part of the kshatriya dharma. Not invading other countries should indeed be treated as a virtue as long as they didn't show undue keenness or attempts in expanding their territory.

 

[RVR]

Please go through the following website showing history of England.

</title> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <meta name="verify-v1" content="Y5asdzHqACqtBajEkrV1q5Ye9jZDftJwLl2ac0/5YGg=" /> <title>2000 Years Ago - History of England

It seems only Romans have taught them building roads, sewage, growing variety of crops, law & order etc.

During my college days, one of my Tamil Professor use to tell us that `these fellows were not even wearing dresses when our fellows built dams, temples etc'.

Erstwhile Tanjore district (Present Tanjore, Tiruvarur and Nagappattinum districts) doesn't have even a single hill. `Swami Malai' near Kumbakonam is not a hill temple even though it is called so.

Some of the temples built in the erstwhile Tanjore district are very old and origin could not be traced.

All these temples have used granite which is an everlasting material requiring no maintenance at all. It shows our ancestors talents in material science.

All these granites were excavated from hills. It means we have mastered excavation technologies.

All these granites have been transported to the erstwhile Tanjore district. Even elephants cannot move these stones and it is a great wonder how it was transported.

These granites have been used for building tall temple towers. How it was lifted to such heights. Was there any crane or material handling equipment those days? Definitely not possible. But our people have mastered heavy material handling techniques.

Who did the whole thing? May not be Brahmins, Kshatrias or Vysyas. It must be by the so called `sudras' only. It means the so called `Sudras' must have mastered all the above technologies.

Without the help of the so called `sudras', the Kshatria rulers could not have achieved all the marvelous architectures.

If there was exploitation of the so called `Sudras', they would have lost their creativity and technical skills.

Please think over and visualize what could have happened those days?

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

rvr,

I think many great civilizations have risen and fallen over the course of time. It does not do well to mock at certain folks because they were still living in caves while we were in stone houses or such.

Because they can in turn mock at us for being weak and insecure, for after all, they conquered and ruled over us.

The English, at the height of their glory, while paying lip service to the greatness of Greece & Rome, would have nothing to do with present day Greeks & Italians. Now, they in turn, have had a rather quick fall from an ‘empire where the sun never set’. But should we look down on them?

NO.

If we visit England, we will find the average Englishman, a very pleasant person, with a somewhat apologetic attitude or indifference towards the bygone empire. They are more bothered about current day unemployment, terrorism and illegal mass immigration of non white people.

If we visit Beijing, talking to a few of the common folks as I did, the first caution that they tell me when I admire the huge modern edifice that is Beijing, is that one has to go only a few miles beyond the urban areas and one would find a China atleast 3 centuries behind if not more. This, inspite of manufacturing just about anything in the world, the modern wide roads, huuuge airports and stunning handling of the Olympics (anyone want to talk about the coming Commonwealth games in Delhi and our preparedness?)

Sure there was a glory that was India. But India of who and what? Was it only Harsha Vardhana, Kanishka & Chandragupta II or Ashoka of the north? How come any of the bharat dhal eaters not aware of the cheras, cholas, pandyas, pallavas, chalukyas or even the more recent vijayanagar?

Even a faulty generalization, that tamil Brahmins look to the north, the mythical and mystical north for jingoistic breast beating, appears to me, to have more than traces of truth. Absolute ones at that too!

Recently I was in Agra, and interacted with several muslims. To them the English did not exist. Neither did india before the mughals. While I was impressed by what the mughals left behind, I was perturbed at their vision of history, and ability to wear blinders to the rest of the world beyond islam. To me, a tamil, the caliphate, the Spanish Islamic empire, the Turkish empire, the abbassids are distant happenings, but not to the muslims I met in Agra. They could relate to all of these, but not ashoka or harsha!!

I have come to realize, that every civilization had its ups and downs. What started with 1492 and Columbus, saw the rise of Europe to levels never before achieved. Even if one does not partake of it, one has to admire all the modern instruments, such as the motor car, the i.c. engine, aeroplane, phone, computers, atoms, the scientific method, and endless other stuff – all the product of modern European minds.

Should we feel bad that we did no such thing in the past 500 years?

NO.

history was against us and now it appears that time is on our side. But this is an india, which has never before existed in its current form ever before. We can still screw it up and so let us hold our judgement about our forthcoming greatness. But i think we should not demonize or despise the English or their status 1500 years or so ago. that is more a reflection of our insecurity and weakness. let us not fall into the trap of leaning hard on our long ago greatness, and ignore all the ills of today which are afflicting us to misery and poverty.

Thank you.

 

[kunjuppu]

i wish to make a clarification re the tone of post #17.

i addressed it to rvr, because i did not want it to be turned into an attack of innuendos, and some of my reference in the post addressed rvr's concerns in HIS post.

the tone, might be a little abrupt, but only because it is addressed with general public in mind.

rvr is a dear friend, and my post in no way be construed as anything more than a conversation, as far as rvr is concerned.

when addressing posts with general terms, i get into trouble because the nuances are misunderstood. i lose count the number of times this has happened. hopefully this won't happen here. ofcourse it goes without saying, if anything in post #17 of this thread is hurtful to venkat, he has my open book of apologies - choose the one you wish venkat

 

[nachi naga]

as a salesperson,we shud never dwell on past glory & acheivementswhat you are today counts,and rocks your world.indians today are a dynamic turbo engine charged on ahigh dosage of steroids.better to go on ayurveda is my opinion.cost of prices have spiralled out of control,its crazy.stop importing oil,have the jatkas ready

 

[kr subramanian]

Dear SIR,
What

 

[kr subramanian]

Dear sir,
What is the quality of food given to us Even the cosmetics or any thing for that matter. When ever export is done the food contro parameters are met and when given it to us it is only second grade. But in the case of price we stand first? Why this step motherly attitude towasrds our own people by our own people. It shows the deterioration of culture and trustworthiness. When fearing white people Indians are not considered as worth enough to get good things. Shame on us

 

[RVR]

i wish to make a clarification re the tone of post #17.

i addressed it to rvr, because i did not want it to be turned into an attack of innuendos, and some of my reference in the post addressed rvr's concerns in HIS post.

the tone, might be a little abrupt, but only because it is addressed with general public in mind.

rvr is a dear friend, and my post in no way be construed as anything more than a conversation, as far as rvr is concerned.

when addressing posts with general terms, i get into trouble because the nuances are misunderstood. i lose count the number of times this has happened. hopefully this won't happen here. ofcourse it goes without saying, if anything in post #17 of this thread is hurtful to venkat, he has my open book of apologies - choose the one you wish venkat

Kunjuppu ji,

I always value your views even if you don't agree with me.

You don't have to feel bad anything as you have not offended me.

All the best

 

[sangom]

Please go through the following website showing history of England.

</title> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <meta name="verify-v1" content="Y5asdzHqACqtBajEkrV1q5Ye9jZDftJwLl2ac0/5YGg=" /> <title>2000 Years Ago - History of England

It seems only Romans have taught them building roads, sewage, growing variety of crops, law & order etc.

During my college days, one of my Tamil Professor use to tell us that `these fellows were not even wearing dresses when our fellows built dams, temples etc'.

Erstwhile Tanjore district (Present Tanjore, Tiruvarur and Nagappattinum districts) doesn't have even a single hill. `Swami Malai' near Kumbakonam is not a hill temple even though it is called so.

Some of the temples built in the erstwhile Tanjore district are very old and origin could not be traced.

All these temples have used granite which is an everlasting material requiring no maintenance at all. It shows our ancestors talents in material science.

All these granites were excavated from hills. It means we have mastered excavation technologies.

All these granites have been transported to the erstwhile Tanjore district. Even elephants cannot move these stones and it is a great wonder how it was transported.

These granites have been used for building tall temple towers. How it was lifted to such heights. Was there any crane or material handling equipment those days? Definitely not possible. But our people have mastered heavy material handling techniques.

Who did the whole thing? May not be Brahmins, Kshatrias or Vysyas. It must be by the so called `sudras' only. It means the so called `Sudras' must have mastered all the above technologies.

Without the help of the so called `sudras', the Kshatria rulers could not have achieved all the marvelous architectures.

If there was exploitation of the so called `Sudras', they would have lost their creativity and technical skills.

Please think over and visualize what could have happened those days?

All the best

Dear RVR,

Whether the British wore clothes or not is not relevant here; we are not comparing India & Britain. In that case the pyramids of Egypt have to be considered as well, stupendous constructions compared to even the Brihadeeswara temple, perhaps, the oldest belonging to the 3rd. millennium BC! And if some Egyptian were to say when our pyramids were built, the Indians were roaming naked in the jungles, will that be true or untrue? There seems to be some controversial theory currently, that the pyramids have been built not with granite, but have been cast in place from concrete of some unknown type, the technology was known to the ancient Egyptians!!

When you say that the technology of temple building was known to Sudras, it is just an unverifiable statement. From all available evidence of history, the hard, thankless manual jobs (breaking the rock, pulling them, the mahouts' work, etc., etc.,) were done by sudras, but the sculpting was done by the sthapatis, a special group within "karmAra" (namaH kulAlEbhyaH karmArEbhyaScavO namO namO, in Sree rudram) who were supposed to observe austerities for such temple jobs and were also permitted to wear poonal during that period; but once the idol was consecrated within the sanctum sanctorum, the sthapati was not allowed inside!!

Kolli malai and Karandai hills are there and granite could have been brought if there was a royal decree, from there or even from more far-off places.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Your interpretation of harmony is not what I meant. Harmony is realized internally in the mind and externally in the society and Indian philosophy says how both can be achieved. The idea is to identify your talent take up the right vocation and in the process elevate your mind through that fulfilment and climb up the ladder of talent. Every soul has to go through this process. Even if one doesn't believe in souls abnd rebirth this approach still makes perfect practical sense.

Dear Shri sravna,

You had stated, "My point is, if such a system were to be practised universally the world would be a much more harmonious place than it is now." Now "harmonious" has, as one of the meanings, "existing together in harmony"; other meanings like "musically pleasing", etc., will not fit in here, I feel. "harmony" means, inter alia, concord, agreement of opinions, etc. Hence the straight meaning of your above sentence will be, "...the world will be a place in which there will be more agreement of opinions and more of existing together in that fashion, than it is now." Don't you agree? That is why I answered the way I did.

Now you are saying, "Harmony is realized internally in the mind and externally in the society and Indian philosophy says how both can be achieved." I do not agree with the latter part, but at the moment I reserve my comments. Then you say,"The idea is to identify your talent take up the right vocation and in the process elevate your mind through that fulfilment and climb up the ladder of talent." This means, by identifying one's talent, taking up the right vocation and in the process elevating one's mind through that fulfilment (how? fulfilment of what?) and climbing up the ladder of talent (what is ladder of talent?) etc. Frankly, this beats me!

Now comes the next mysterious statement, "Every soul has to go through this process. Even if one doesn't believe in souls abnd rebirth this approach still makes perfect practical sense." How belief or otherwise in transmigration is related to the previous statement is beyond my ability to grasp.

"Dissatisfactions, disillusionments etc. are major causes of today's rampant psychiatric disorders and eventually in societal disorders. These were neatly taken care of by the Indians of the past."

This is also a disjointed statement IMO. Realization of internal/external harmonies > identifying one's talent and taking up the right vocation > elevating the mind through that (identifying one's talent and taking up the right vocation, I suppose) > climbing up the ladder of talent >every soul undergoes this process (whether one believes in rebirth or not) and this process makes practical sense > dissatisfactions, disillusionments cause of today's rampant psychiatric disorders, eventually leading to societal disorders > these were neatly taken care of by the Indians of the past : that is the point in this jungle of statements I am finding myself now. Do you mean that
dissatisfactions, disillusionments which are the cause of today's rampant psychiatric disorders, eventually leading to societal disorders, were all there in the India of the past also, but they were neatly "taken care of", meaning treated and cured?

Anyway wars are not disallowed as it is in many cases becomes a part of the kshatriya dharma. Not invading other countries should indeed be treated as a virtue as long as they didn't show undue keenness or attempts in expanding their territory.

This is also confusing to me. If kshatriya dharma allowed wars, why should there be any limit on conquering other lands? Secondly, Parasikas (Persians), the Hunas, lands across the Himalayas, all of these were other countries even in Vikramaditya's times, just as neighbouring kingdoms were also viewed as "other countries" (you might have read words like
Chera naadu, Pandya naadu, Chozha naadu). You have really finished your post with a marvellous pronouncement, "as long as they didn't show undue keenness or attempts in expanding their territory." Will you kindly tell where "undue" begins and virtue disappears?

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR,

Whether the British wore clothes or not is not relevant here; we are not comparing India & Britain. In that case the pyramids of Egypt have to be considered as well, stupendous constructions compared to even the Brihadeeswara temple, perhaps, the oldest belonging to the 3rd. millennium BC! And if some Egyptian were to say when our pyramids were built, the Indians were roaming naked in the jungles, will that be true or untrue? There seems to be some controversial theory currently, that the pyramids have been built not with granite, but have been cast in place from concrete of some unknown type, the technology was known to the ancient Egyptians!!

When you say that the technology of temple building was known to Sudras, it is just an unverifiable statement. From all available evidence of history, the hard, thankless manual jobs (breaking the rock, pulling them, the mahouts' work, etc., etc.,) were done by sudras, but the sculpting was done by the sthapatis, a special group within "karmAra" (namaH kulAlEbhyaH karmArEbhyaScavO namO namO, in Sree rudram) who were supposed to observe austerities for such temple jobs and were also permitted to wear poonal during that period; but once the idol was consecrated within the sanctum sanctorum, the sthapati was not allowed inside!!

Kolli malai and Karandai hills are there and granite could have been brought if there was a royal decree, from there or even from more far-off places.

Sthapathi would have designed the temple but the actual construction is done by others only - invariably by the so called `Sudras'. I don't know to which `varna' you will classify the `sthapathi'.

Even today Sthapathis are available but they are not classified as Brahmins. They cannot be classifed as `Kshatrias' or `Vysyas' either. I don't know under which `varna' he could be classifed .

We are rebuilding a village temple and the Sthapathi takes full responsibility for the work but he doesn't move himself a stone even by a single inch. He has a set of skilled people who are well versed in temple construction. Normal `mason' doesn't suit the job of temple construction particularly with respect to `vimana', `Gopuram' etc.

He is guaranteeing the building life of 200 years only. It means, he is compromising the quality of material used unlike our ancestors whose temples are withstanding thousands of years.

About twenty years back a `Gopuram' was constructed at Srirengam Temple.

The Hindu : Cities / Chennai : Plying of vehicles through Srirangam Rajagopuram banned

It only shows that we have lost the skills of our technicians over the years.

I don't want to blame the moghuls since they have no role in this part of the country. More over Moghuls have built Taj Mahal and other monuments which are withstanding for hundreds of years.

But we cannot give a clean chit to the British. They only taught us using Steel, Cement etc in construction. Life of a concrete building is definitely very much less as compared to the technologies used by our ancestors. It has also destroyed the skills of our people which was acquired through generations.

Most of the materials used by our ancestors were environmental friendly as they are all very much natural mateirals. But I very much doubt the modern materials used in the construction of buildings as they have artificial chemicals.

I earnestly feel that our skills in both material and construction technologies have been destroyed during British rule.

All the best