Culture-some questions

[sangom]

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Dear Shri sangom,

It is a real pleasure to read your point-by-point thorough response. We both know we share common view on most issues, but not in total sync on all issues, Astrology being one topic where we have different views. So, while I have the utmost of respect for you, it is not out of any personal loyalty that I say, your contribution to intelligent and forthright debate is unparalleled, and IMO, no one even comes close. I wish I can emulate you at least in keeping my emotions in check, for I know I can never hope to match your erudition.



If I may say so myself, I also purchased a few of these bonds at a time when our assets were quite meager. For better or worse, I feel animated more about India than U.S. So, to shut people like me from commenting on Indian affairs is unfair bordering on mean.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

I don't know whether I deserve all the good words you have about me. But, as you say, each one of us here has his/her own views about each and everything under the sun and we may get convinced by what someone else says about a particular topic or we may not.

I was astounded by the view that the NRIs/POIs have no say in our affairs, including the affairs of the country because, as per Shri Pannvalan, they have severed their umbilical cord with mother India! So, I thought I should bring the benefits for the country due to these severed umbilical cord (SUC !) group.

 

[Nara]

... HELL WITH UR HYPOCRATIC AMERICAN SOCIETY.

INDIANS ARE THE WORST RACISTS. THIS IS 100% TRUE.

No need to shout dear R. Ramanujan, we can hear you just loud and clear in lowercase. I happen to agree Indians are quite racist, mostly because of ignorance. I also agree American society is hypocritical, but I have to add, no more than other societies including our own Indian society. We all have our warts, we need to look for them and try to remove them.

Yes, it is sad Obama had to reaffirm he is a practicing Christian, the unsaid subtext is "I am not Muslim". This is similar to what Advani was put through when he said Jinnah was a secular leader. Political realities often impose litmus tests and the politicians are only too ready to take them for fear of getting attacked if they don't.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Senthil, Greetings!

Alas, your "sorry" is wasted, Shri sangom is not saying what you think he is saying. I am sure he can explain much better than I can, but one thing he is not saying is, there was nothing worthwhile in India before the Britishers came. I feel sorry you read this from his post, and even more sorry if you just made it up.

[.... lot of irrelevant stuff deleted, respect for the ancient Indians is not in question ....]

Well, I am not sure what you want to debate. I for one am quite respectful of the achievements of the ancients, be it Indians or from other parts of the world. I am quite proud of the fact some of our ancient forefathers rejected the superstitious nonsense of poorva mimamsa. I am quite proud of the fact the Lord of universal love, Buddha, was of Indian origin. I am proud of the fact Emperor Ashoka attempted to spread Buddha's message of love all over the world. So, when we criticize the narrow ideology of Brahmninism, please don't assume we are criticizing all our ancient forefathers. Speaking for myself, I am quite proud of my forefathers who rejected Brahminism outright.

Huh? Where did he say that? Here is what he said:

"Do you honestly feel convinced that we in India today can survive in this world without the help of all that we have copied from the West, including the computers at my end and yours? Can we discard all these knowledge which we have mostly copied from the westerners and live only with the help of whatever knowledge was bequeathed to us by Dharma Sastras, Kautilya, Ramana maharshi, Deivatthin Kural, Vivekananda, Bharatiar, Thirukkural, Mahabharata, Charaka and Susruta?"
​

This is not what you say Shri sangom is saying, namely, "if western computers and advancement were NOT there, would we have survived in this world?" Please read Shri sangom's statement carefully and you will see he is not saying what you think he is saying at all.

I am not sure what you are getting at with this. Would you please elaborate?

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Thank you for writing on my behalf; perhaps you have done a more astute presentation than what I could have. My internet connection was down from last evening and was restored only this evening completely. Hence I could not browse.

Shri Senthil seems to feel that I have not recognized that our ancients did not do anything and were very backward. As you have very rightly pointed out, in my reply to Shri Pannvalan (item No.2) I had written as under:

“Our genius in mathematics, astronomy, medicine and surgery” was there but these did not flourish. I have already given my views on why we need to be more concerned about all these geniuses getting extinguished long before the Muslim invations began, and how in a similar time duration or less, the West has achieved marvellous results, despite (or due to?) two intervening World Wars of more than the Kurukshetra war. Pl. see item no.3 below"

Shri Senthilraj has not taken this into account. I will accept your post as my (best possible) reply to Shri Senthilraj.

Shri Senthilraj,

BTW, you have mentioned about wootz ("urukku" mistranslated by foreigners) steel and the use of cannons by the Vijayanagara empire.

The Chinese seem to have been the first to understand the process of removing slag from iron and injecting carbon into it so that a better alloy was obtained. Hence even if Indians had also found it out independently, the credit for first invention might go to the Chinese. Also, there was ample trade between the Malabar coast and the Chinese (looks little circuitous, but might have been for the spices) and how it has contributed to traditional temple design in the Kerala area. It is also now generally accepted that the "Kalarippayattu" was taken to China and got modified into the present martial arts; this shows cultural contacts as well. The main centres of Urukku were in South India.

There is a section of research opinion that the Damascene blade making technology died a natural death when the wootz steel quality deteriorated in its Vanadium content. If this is right, blaming the British will have to be done with a bit of circumspection.

Vijayanagara Empire (VE) used cannons and cannon balls but it had to recruit foreign gunners (people from present day Turkmenistan area were the most sought after, it seems). I therefore feel that even in those days which Shri Senthil Raj refers to, we had to depend on foreign goods, their advanced technology and also their personal skills. At least now we have improved from that stage and our youngsters are picking up the foreign technology and skills!!

I have started reading Dharampal's essays; the Imperial Gazetteer is so voluminous that I doubt whether it will be possible for me to find out therelevant portions.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

I'm posting a piece of a blog posted by one named Mr. Muthuswami for a microscopic view on everybody's part.

TELL A TAMil BRAhmin, "V R A SET OF SELFISH & SELF-CENTRED PEOPLE" HE READILY AGREES WITH d OBSERVATION , WITHOUT ANY FEELING OF GUILT, AS IF HE IS NOT A PART OF THIS ABOMINABLE ATTITUDE! ABJECT CASUALNESS!!
WHEN A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNITY IS UNFAIRLY TREATED AND SEEKS HELP FROM OTHER MEMBERS TO ESPOUSE HIS JUST CAUSE, THEY "LOOK THE OTHER WAY" ENAKKU ITHILE THALAI IDANDAM (I WOULD NOT LIKE TO INVOLVE MYSELF) , HOWEVER, WHEN THESE INDIFFERENT BRAHMINS RECEIVE UNJUSTIFIED ASSAULTS THEMSELVES, SHAMELESSLY EXPECT THE WHOLE WORLD TO SUPPORT THEM! CAN SELFISHNESS BE BETTER DEFINED?

 

[R. Ramanujan]

God belongs to everyone. No one can claim monopoly over God. Kadavul Ellarukum podhu sothu. God is everywhere. If we discriminate against our fellow hindus just coz they are not brahs then they would feel left out and prob convert to get out of this vicious circle of discrimination. Mind it I say.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

The Rig Veda, the oldest veda, explicitly sanctions the custom of sati. The following famous `Sati Hymn' of the Rig Veda was (and still is) recited during the actual immolation of the widow [ Kane 199-200 ]: -Rig Veda X.18.7 : " Let these women, whose husbands are worthy and are living, enter the house with ghee (applied) as corrylium ( to their eyes). Let these wives first step into the pyre, tearless without any affliction and well adorned."

-- [ Rig Veda X.18.7 ] [ Kane 199-200 ]

When Sati practice is banned then why dont we amend this section in Rig Veda?

 

[sangom]

The Rig Veda, the oldest veda, explicitly sanctions the custom of sati. The following famous `Sati Hymn' of the Rig Veda was (and still is) recited during the actual immolation of the widow [ Kane 199-200 ]: -Rig Veda X.18.7 : " Let these women, whose husbands are worthy and are living, enter the house with ghee (applied) as corrylium ( to their eyes). Let these wives first step into the pyre, tearless without any affliction and well adorned."

-- [ Rig Veda X.18.7 ] [ Kane 199-200 ]

When Sati practice is banned then why dont we amend this section in Rig Veda?

Dear Shri Ramanujam,
The rik 10.18.07 has consumed the lives of thousands of widows, young and old. This was the result of one of the demoniacal tricks of the brahmins. The rik as it stands (and stood) in the palm leaf mss in many other parts of the country, including the one on which Sayana wrote his bhashya, as under:

imA nAreeH avidhavAH supatneeH Anjanena sarpishA samviSantu |
anaSravO anameevAH suratnA ArOhantu janayo yonim agrE || X.18.07

Approximate meaning: May all women who have their husbands alive apply ghee to their eyes and return to their houses. Let the wives, without tears, well-adorned, reach the house first.

The custom in the rigvedic times was for all the crowd, including the widow/s and other women, to go up to a point on the way to the place of cremation and from that point, to return home, it seems.

The last word was changed from "agre" (first) to "agne" (in the fire) and re-interpreted to mean that the let the widow/s, dressed up as a "sumangali" with all ornaments, ascend the pyre (agne)! The (mis)interpretation was followed by some areas in the country particularly Bengal and its surrounding areas.

Unlike other parts of the country which had the Mitakshara law for division of HUF property (in which the issueless widow had right only for food and clothes - nothing else), the Daayaabhaaga law followed in Bengal allowed full share
which would have gone to the dead male member, to his issueless widow as well.

Through this demoniacal trick the zamindar families with the collusion of brahmins, were able to eliminate the widows and enjoy the dead man's share also. But since the tricksters had to say that it was a veda-sanctioned requirement, several widows with children also must have been burnt.

We hindus should, therefore, feel thankful to Raja Rammohun Roy.

 

[nachi naga]

sati,became a popular ploy on two accounts.there was no widow re-marriage.who will take care of widows?they were sitting ducks for sexual predator's.when aliens invaded and vanquished bharathians,women were one of the booty.bharathian women preferred to die hara-kiri rather than being used by aliens in whatsoever manner,the winner chose.thankfully raja ram mohan roy,spearheaded a revolution,and wish to thank british christians too,who made sre natives did not do sati vraata after death of their swami.now,in bharath,men are tooling around and women are kicking the backside,a reverse sati of sorts is taking place.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Here is a very interesting personnel example which I encountered. I happened to be in Srirangam. Since I was born in Mumbai, and brought up in Uttarakhand and Delhi I know very little about my Vaishnavism. My amma saw Ahobila Mutt opposite the Vellai gopuram. She told me that our isth dev is sri lakshmi narasimman perumal and We belong to Ahobila mutt tradition so I should make it a point to visit it every evening whenever they do archanai after chanting mantras. I obeyed.

Everyday they used to give some prasadam. On one tamil new year day they gave Rs.10 to everyone who came there that day. I was bit apprehensive on taking the money but they insisted that I should take it. I asked amma as to what should I do with it? She instructed me not to spend it and to buy vaazha payam with it and do archanai to the lord very next day. I obeyed.

But I was very soon singled out since I was only one who came there in jeans and T-shirts without namam.

After a good 4 weeks Once I overheard a conversation between two women who sit on the other side. One women said to other,"Inda paiyan inge dinamum Sapaduku thaane varaan". At this the other women noded her head in affirmative. I felt very devistated and very bad. I was very badly hurt. So I decided never to go there and get insulted by ppl.

My purpose of writing this is to appeal to our fellow brahs that not to insult anyone coz only then u can achieve real unity and loyalty.
nandrigal.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Sure Sir.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.R.Ramanujan,

Greetings. With all the due respects to your personal experiences and personal feelings, I request you not to judge a whole community based on your experiences from few persons. Had you come across very nice few persons from a particular community, would you be praising the whole community? (or would you ignore nice deeds from others and dwell on trivial comments passed by others?). Before you start a debate with me on what I have written, I requst you to think. (I am not very interested in a debate anyway).

Cheers!

 

[R. Ramanujan]

My frnd I have met good brahmins also. And I'm a mature not to judge the whole lot with bitter experiences I've had at the hands of a few. There are bad apples in pack. I just ignore them. Just sharing my personal experiences to show that bad ppl also there in this world. Dont just portray a happygo lucky picture.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

TO ALL TAM BRAH'S,

Go to desikar sannadhi in srirangam temple at 5.30 pm sharp. There a few wealthy brahmins have copyrighted the perumal. They don't allow anybody else to go. When they distribute prasadam they expect us to go(meaning we have made this prasadam we give money then how can you eat) even the priest is corrupted. Pls free the perumal from the clutches of these wealthy third class brah's who do more disservice more than service. IF HINDUISM WAS ALL ABT IDOL WORSHIPPING EVERYBODY WOULD BE HINDU. YOU HAVE TO BE PERFECT IN EVERY SENSE. IF YOU CAN'T TREAT THE PERSON YOU SEE WITH RESPECT THEN HOW CAN YOU EXPECT TO RESPECT THE PERUMAL WHOM YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN?

In ramar sannadhi which is near to the swarga vasal the priest asks chilre venuma. Meaning if i dont have change for dakshina i can get it there. Is it a temple or a bank?

 

[R. Ramanujan]

HAILS TO OUR GREAT SENSIBLE BRAHMINICAL SOCIETY. HINDUISM VAZHGA. अथिथि देवो भवः
BE PROUD TO BE A BRAHMIN.
Bangalore: Temple's history of insensitivity

 

[happyhindu]

HAILS TO OUR GREAT SENSIBLE BRAHMINICAL SOCIETY. HINDUISM VAZHGA. अथिथि देवो भवः
BE PROUD TO BE A BRAHMIN.
Bangalore: Temple's history of insensitivity

It is really shocking and sad to read the link you have given.

So handicapped people are also treated badly by some temples...

Well, wonder what can be done to sensitize people...IMO, sections of the shastras do desensitise people.

One will not come forward to help even one's own kind, because folks tend to blame a troubled man's troubles on his own karma....

Dunno how much more will "karma" get mis-used; and i wonder if karma causes phase transition, or causes two black holes to collide...

Also wonder if humans will talk of karma after they have left earth and settled on moon....perhaps they will not take an iota of self-responsibility for ruining planet earth...

Reg your previous post, someone i know had bad experiences in the Srirangam koil as well..He said that at every point they extracted money for some or the other reason, and by the time he came out of the temple, he hardly had any money left in his wallet..

Regards.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

its not once they have done it they have done it many times. its so disgusting. so insensitive. the boy comes from delhi. avanuku manasu illiya. oru manidana manasu yein pa ipdi kasta paduturanga. teriyamatengardu.

regarding the srirangam kovil expereince u go once at the time at that sannadhi. sure u will also face the same fate. the 4 or 5 wealthly brah women will close the doors and do a private archanai with the god. my AMMA WAS ALSO TOLD TO GO OUT WHEN SHE CAME THERE. SHE IS SO DEVOTED. SHE GOES TO VISHUSAHARSAMANA DISCOURSE. SHE WAS ALSO UPSET. U C SIR THESE THINGS MAKE ONE ASHAMED OF BEING A HINDU. BUT I KNOW HINDUISM IS MUCH MORE THAN THESE **********. I WILL NEVER CONVERT AND I WILL SERVE THE HUMANITY. THESE PPL NAMAKKU KETTA PEYAR SAMBADIKKRANGA. BUT I MUST SAY THAT SRIRANGAM KOVIL IS MUCH MORE DISABLE FRIENDLY. THEY HAVE SPECIAL WHEELCHAIRS. AND PERSONS WHO OPERATE IT.

R. RAMANUJAN BORN A HINDU, LIVE AS A HINDU AND DIE AS A HINDU. MIND IT I SAY.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

What ever i have posted is totally true i don't know if anyone believes me or not but trust me these are personal anubhvangal. Nandri.

 

[sangom]

It is really shocking and sad to read the link you have given.

So handicapped people are also treated badly by some temples...

Well, wonder what can be done to sensitize people...IMO, sections of the shastras do desensitise people.

One will not come forward to help even one's own kind, because folks tend to blame a troubled man's troubles on his own karma....

Dunno how much more will "karma" get mis-used; and i wonder if karma causes phase transition, or causes two black holes to collide...

Also wonder if humans will talk of karma after they have left earth and settled on moon....perhaps they will not take an iota of self-responsibility for ruining planet earth...

Reg your previous post, someone i know had bad experiences in the Srirangam koil as well..He said that at every point they extracted money for some or the other reason, and by the time he came out of the temple, he hardly had any money left in his wallet..

Regards.

IMO, a temple is not only a public place but also a place for worship. The people who come there do come for prayer and worship. Circumambulation forms part of the worship rituals. Many times there will be a large number of people in the temple, more so at the time of the "aarati", "abhishekam", etc. Hence, a sensible idea will be to admit wheel-chair devotees during certain restricted timings. But if our new-found egalitarian attitudes demand that no discrimination of any sort will be tolerated, that will definitely create hardships for the majority of the temple-goers.

Personally, (and I know this comment will generate many criticisms) I would say that people in wheel-chair themselves should realize that since they are incapable of doing pradakshinam, namaskaram, etc., they should not insist on visiting temples where they are not allowed. Everyone in this world cannot achieve everything which the other person has been able to. That is nature. Remember the fable about the crow trying to imitate the peacock?

 

[Raghy]

Shri. Raghy,
On a lighter vein, seeing your comments above, just remembered a part of the song below. If you follow Rajni, you will know which song this is.

வெறும் கம்பங்களி தின்னவனும் மண்ணுக்குள்ளே
அட தங்கபஸ்பம் தின்னவனும் மண்ணுக்குள்ளே

இந்த வாழ்கை வாழத்தான்
நாம் பிறக்கையில் கையில் என்ன கொண்டு வந்தோம் கொண்டு செல்ல

......

தாயை தேர்தெடுக்கும், தந்தையை தேர்தெடுக்கும்
உரிமை உன்னிடத்தில் இல்லை

முகத்தை தேர்தெடுக்கும், நிறத்தை தேர்தெடுக்கும்
உரிமை உன்னிடத்தில் இல்லை

பிறப்பை தேர்தெடுக்கும், இறப்பை தேர்தெடுக்கும்
உரிமை உன்னிடத்தில் இல்லை

எண்ணி பார்க்கும் வேளையில்
உன் வாழ்கை மட்டும்
உந்தன் கையில் உண்டு
அதை வென்றிடு

Sri.Anand Sir,

Greetings. A belated reply....I am providing a link to that song. Bit of visual effects!

YouTube - padayappa kikku song

Cheers!

 

[Sarath]

Thanks praveen for revoking the ban. god bless u. take care.

 

[kunjuppu]

praveen,

i respect your decision, as you have a broader perspective of the forum, and also its owner. however, it may do good, to many here, and also to ramanujan, if you could give some reasons and also the guidelines that you followed, and found ramanujan to be unacceptable.

please let us know. thanks.

 

[kunjuppu]

praveen,

i respect your decision, as you have a broader perspective of the forum, and also its owner. however, it may do good, to many here, and also to ramanujan, if you could give some reasons and also the guidelines that you followed, and found ramanujan to be unacceptable.

please let us know. thanks.

guys this is not sarath. this is ramanujan. praveen has conveniently banned me for raising some valid issues. u c our society conveniently isolates those who speak out against the flaws that the system has. and this is what they do to the ppl like us. ban. issues relating to intolerance, insensitivity. etc. i was hoping to raise some issues relating to prosecution of hindus in pak and bang but u c today eveng i logged on and saw that
vBulletin Message

You have been banned for the following reason:
No reason was specified.
Date the ban will be lifted: Never








this is vazhkai. in a democracy diff of opinion are never encouraged. ban is the only way to shut the mouth anyways take care every1.

 

[Sarath]

Thanks Praveen for Revoking the Ban. Very nyz gesture. god bless u.

 

[kunjuppu]

???

sarath, not sure what is happening. surely praveen's banning is not the cause of it? seek some help through friends or family. God Bless.

sir, im very hurt. all these years i have been humiliated, taunted, and coz of this thing my mood is very off. my amma is preparing for janmashtami and i not feeling like eating anything. this is just another feather to the cap of humiliations that i have faced. i will surely embrace any other religion may be sikhism,or islam or tibetan buddhism but i feel let down by my own ppl. i m very distressed, disappointed, hurt. feeling very lonely and left out. nobody is with me. i have faced a period of depression, lot of times i have contemplated suicide and overcoming it with the grace of lord ranganathar without the help of any allopathec medicines. the god doesnt want me to leave this planet coz he has sent me for some specific purpose. he wants me to complete it.

oh god pls help me. pls show some bliss on me. i want moksha. i know in my earlier life i have hurt some ppl i regret it. but for how long u want me suffer. there must be a deadline. just last weak i had a deadly accident. i overcome it. why do u want me to be alive. i want to come to u but i want u to do it. i don't want to do sucide coz then a lot of avamanam by relatives. pls call me asap. i dont like anyone in this planet.

 

[Sarath]

லைஃப்ல
கொஞ்ச நாள் விளையாட்டு..கொஞ்ச நாள் படிப்பு..கொஞ்ச நாள் ஊர்சுத்தல்...கொஞ்ச நாள் சண்டை..கொஞ்ச நாள் நிம்மதி..கொஞ்ச நாள் வொர்க்..கொஞ்ச நாள் ரெஸ்ட்..கொஞ்ச நாள் ஃப்ரெண்ட்ஸோட..கொஞ்ச நாள் லவ்வரோட..கொஞ்ச நாள் கொண்டாட்டம்..கொஞ்ச நாள் திண்டாட்டம்..கொஞ்ச நாள் டென்ஷன்..கொஞ்ச நாள் உல்லாசம்..கொஞ்ச நாள் ஏமாற்றம்..கொஞ்ச நாள் தடுமாற்றம்..கொஞ்ச நாள் தோல்வி..கொஞ்ச நாள் வெற்றி..

இந்த மாதிரி லைஃப்ல எல்லாமே கொஞ்ச நாள்தான்.
அதனால enjoy every second of your life..