I am a Vadama Iyer. Everyone in my family speaks Tamil. However, going back several generations, there seems to have been a significant amount of Telugu influence. Is it possible that Vadamas (since they are the "northerners") originated from outside Tamil Nadu? Specifically, many Kannada and Telugu Brahmins migrated to Tamil Nadu after the fall of Vijayanagar. They settled in areas that were then ruled by the Nayaks (such as Thanjavur, where most of my family comes from). Could these brahmins be the ancestors of today's Vadamas?
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Deccani Origin for Vadama Iyers
- Thread starter Gautham Senthilkumar
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murali
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What is the difference between chola desa vadamas and vadadesa vadamas?can anyone give authentic information.
I can't think of any major differences between Choladesa and Vadadesa except for geography. They have very similar customs and they frequently intermarry. For example, my maternal grandfather is Choladesa from Thanjavur and his wife, my maternal grandmother is Vadadesa from Viluppuram. From what I have heard, Vadadesa Vadamas are considered to be superior for some reason. This might be because they were geographically (and also perhaps culturally) closer to the Telugu rulers of Tamil Nadu and might have had greater patronage and support as a result.
Does any one know what is meant by Vadami Muthi vaishnavas? Where do they originate from? Are they iyers or Iyangars. Just curious
Couple of things that might be of interest:
1) According to this paper: http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...i-S/IJHG-07-2-167-07-298-Kanthimathi-S-Tt.pdf , the Iyers and Iyengars of Tamil Nadu were found closest to Veerakodi Vellalars. Found info on veerakudi or karkatha vellalars here: http://dino-latchmi.tripod.com/id12.html Apparently they were a community of fighters..and it does appear that the time of incoming of medieval cholas coincided with the appearance of the vellalars in the tamil country with ppl in bramanical roles, such as safeguarding things thru rituals: http://dino-latchmi.tripod.com/id11.html
Interestingly, the Thevar sample was found closer to the people of UAE and Pakistan (as intermediaries b/w African and Sahul populations). Kallar sample (as usual) is mentioned as the oldest immigrants to the Indian landscape (of the Neolithic times) with the Mediterranean racial element.
2) According to this paper: http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/175.pdf , Iyers and Iyengars (esp Iyers) were found related to Bengali Brahmins, who in turn were found related to the Mahisya and Bagdi groups.
3) According to this paper: http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/171.pdf the Paraiyan, Chakkiliyar and Mutracha were identified as proto-australoid who might have entered Tamil Nadu 15-20K years ago. As usual again, Kallar and Vanniyar were found to display Paleo-Mediterranean and Mediterranean features and it is expected that they entered Tamil Nadu 10K years ago. The Brahmins are suggested to have entered Tamil Nadu 3000 to 5000 years ago. Perhaps it’s the case of same people but different cultures or diff community settings, at different points in time (?).
4) This is a nice recent paper that helps understand the caste-tribe conundrum: http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...a-D-R/IJHG-08-1&2-021-08-323-Silva-D-R-Tt.pdf
Its understood that the current caste system is a fairly ‘recent’ phenomenon, since the ‘aryan’ speakers actually formed the ‘earlier’ caste system which is presently the tribal social and genetic structure. There are several papers, one of them being: http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0002929707623532, that reinforce the point that the distinctive Y-mediated landscape was created not by the recent IE expansions but instead they were dated back, and had happened during the pre-Holocene and Holocene era.
Plus, it is also suggested that the central asian (the one considered as so-called ‘aryan’ in the present time) admixture into existing system at that time was so small, it wud be like mixing a teaspoon of salt into several gallons of water. However, what constitutes ‘central asia’ itself is of much debate, as it seems to have been made up of diff regions at diff points in time.
Everything said and done, all these are matters of subjective or academic interest. Everyone has every right to follow his own way of life.
It may well be possible that not only Iyers, but a good many so-called pucca tamilians, once lived along the gangetic plains or the narmada basin or on the other side of the cauvery. Central india esp is home to very old human dwellings, such as the bhimbetka caves.
1) According to this paper: http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...i-S/IJHG-07-2-167-07-298-Kanthimathi-S-Tt.pdf , the Iyers and Iyengars of Tamil Nadu were found closest to Veerakodi Vellalars. Found info on veerakudi or karkatha vellalars here: http://dino-latchmi.tripod.com/id12.html Apparently they were a community of fighters..and it does appear that the time of incoming of medieval cholas coincided with the appearance of the vellalars in the tamil country with ppl in bramanical roles, such as safeguarding things thru rituals: http://dino-latchmi.tripod.com/id11.html
Interestingly, the Thevar sample was found closer to the people of UAE and Pakistan (as intermediaries b/w African and Sahul populations). Kallar sample (as usual) is mentioned as the oldest immigrants to the Indian landscape (of the Neolithic times) with the Mediterranean racial element.
2) According to this paper: http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/175.pdf , Iyers and Iyengars (esp Iyers) were found related to Bengali Brahmins, who in turn were found related to the Mahisya and Bagdi groups.
3) According to this paper: http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol87No2/171.pdf the Paraiyan, Chakkiliyar and Mutracha were identified as proto-australoid who might have entered Tamil Nadu 15-20K years ago. As usual again, Kallar and Vanniyar were found to display Paleo-Mediterranean and Mediterranean features and it is expected that they entered Tamil Nadu 10K years ago. The Brahmins are suggested to have entered Tamil Nadu 3000 to 5000 years ago. Perhaps it’s the case of same people but different cultures or diff community settings, at different points in time (?).
4) This is a nice recent paper that helps understand the caste-tribe conundrum: http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...a-D-R/IJHG-08-1&2-021-08-323-Silva-D-R-Tt.pdf
Its understood that the current caste system is a fairly ‘recent’ phenomenon, since the ‘aryan’ speakers actually formed the ‘earlier’ caste system which is presently the tribal social and genetic structure. There are several papers, one of them being: http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0002929707623532, that reinforce the point that the distinctive Y-mediated landscape was created not by the recent IE expansions but instead they were dated back, and had happened during the pre-Holocene and Holocene era.
Plus, it is also suggested that the central asian (the one considered as so-called ‘aryan’ in the present time) admixture into existing system at that time was so small, it wud be like mixing a teaspoon of salt into several gallons of water. However, what constitutes ‘central asia’ itself is of much debate, as it seems to have been made up of diff regions at diff points in time.
Everything said and done, all these are matters of subjective or academic interest. Everyone has every right to follow his own way of life.
It may well be possible that not only Iyers, but a good many so-called pucca tamilians, once lived along the gangetic plains or the narmada basin or on the other side of the cauvery. Central india esp is home to very old human dwellings, such as the bhimbetka caves.
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Vadaman Mutthi Vaishanavan..
Till the period of Ramanujar,the caste was distinct to Smartha and Vaishanavam was one of the age practising sects lilke Gaumaram,Ganapathiyam,etc. Ramanujar was a smartha Brahmin, who influenced the formation of Thenkalai sect. Smarthas were Vaishnavites too ( my grandfather was one). The feeling among Vaishnavites was that Smarthas weren't Vaisnavities, hence the message to them was Vadaman's intellectual maturity gave birth to Vaishnava. This also relates to the fact of Ramanuja's philosphy of Visishta Advaitam contrary to Shankara's Advaitam.
This is how I interpreted the story and this after debates with elders of both Vaishanavism and Smartha sects.
Till the period of Ramanujar,the caste was distinct to Smartha and Vaishanavam was one of the age practising sects lilke Gaumaram,Ganapathiyam,etc. Ramanujar was a smartha Brahmin, who influenced the formation of Thenkalai sect. Smarthas were Vaishnavites too ( my grandfather was one). The feeling among Vaishnavites was that Smarthas weren't Vaisnavities, hence the message to them was Vadaman's intellectual maturity gave birth to Vaishnava. This also relates to the fact of Ramanuja's philosphy of Visishta Advaitam contrary to Shankara's Advaitam.
This is how I interpreted the story and this after debates with elders of both Vaishanavism and Smartha sects.
Can anyone please provide more info the Veerakodi vellalar group please. Any historical or inscriptional evidence or traditional folktales, to suggest migration from any place?
Would there be anything to suggest that these people came down the gangetic plains; and as they moved down south, some stayed back in orissa, some stayed back in andhra to become the local population there; some moved into tamilnadu (as vellalars) and still others moved into karnataka (tulu land ?) and further down to kerala?
Searched the web. Found no answers. There is no seperate wiki article for veerakodi vellalars either.
Would there be anything to suggest that these people came down the gangetic plains; and as they moved down south, some stayed back in orissa, some stayed back in andhra to become the local population there; some moved into tamilnadu (as vellalars) and still others moved into karnataka (tulu land ?) and further down to kerala?
Searched the web. Found no answers. There is no seperate wiki article for veerakodi vellalars either.
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Many Vadamas, notably Ramanuja and Vedanta Desikar converted to Vaishnavism. So it is just to indicate the next stage of evolution of Vadamas
Sundararaja
You have quoted so many papers for discussion. The cotents of these papers are not disputed. Mainly 1.The learned in those subject dont consider them having any value.2.The university or any authority that would be simply accept them because they have no time to devote andhave their own jobs.3.Anyone who has perverted interest on that particular subject handle them to their favour.So these can be taken as only as Reading materials only.they cannot be taken as evidence. As per the Hindu scriptures and also Upanishads and Bagavadgitha Chadur Varnam was created simultaneously.So brahmins are not decendents of any other castes.If you are confused please get clarified from veterans .True Brahmin is a DWIJAN.If he has come from Karkatha velalar he becomes a THRIJAN.
You have quoted so many papers for discussion. The cotents of these papers are not disputed. Mainly 1.The learned in those subject dont consider them having any value.2.The university or any authority that would be simply accept them because they have no time to devote andhave their own jobs.3.Anyone who has perverted interest on that particular subject handle them to their favour.So these can be taken as only as Reading materials only.they cannot be taken as evidence. As per the Hindu scriptures and also Upanishads and Bagavadgitha Chadur Varnam was created simultaneously.So brahmins are not decendents of any other castes.If you are confused please get clarified from veterans .True Brahmin is a DWIJAN.If he has come from Karkatha velalar he becomes a THRIJAN.
Sir, what one considers himself (or rather what one group of people consider themselves based on man-created shastras) need not be true...
You may consider yourself in any manner pleasing to you, or basically anything based on shastras..
You can certainly disconnect with everyone else and you can certainly consider yourself as an adobe of brahma and created by brahma himself born out of immaculate conception..
However, what is not nice of you is your characterization of research papers with comical reasons stated by you from 1 to 3.
1. If they are valueless to you, so be it. You need not decide for others.
2. Oh sure
universities and researchers are soooo jobless that they have to accept papers not written like a dispassionate tribal event of a fight b/w 2 tribes;...and instead the poor dearies sitting in universities are forced to accept stories written like the puranic fantastical aayitahil oruvan story glorifying blood-bath and fantasies..3. Alas, anything that goes a wee bit against concocted stories of origin, greatness, purity and "varna-genetics", gets labeleld as 'perverted' instead of a possible fact.
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sangom
0
HH,
Shri Wrongan has clearly established/proclaimed in his post that. "As per the Hindu scriptures and also Upanishads and Bagavadgitha Chadur Varnam was created simultaneously.So brahmins are not decendents of any other castes.If you are confused please get clarified from veterans .True Brahmin is a DWIJAN.If he has come from Karkatha velalar he becomes a THRIJAN." So, there need not be any doubt in your mind that all these papers on genetic studies will not stand the test of expert scrutiny before what our Vedas, Upanishads and Bhagavdgita have already established a very long time ago. The vedic and upanishadic rishis as also Lord krishna were endowed with "jnaana sakti" and they could percieve truths which modern science, including genetics, might never, till the end of the cosmos, be able to comprehend.
Having said that, I have a small doubt; our puranas say that a person is born a SUdra but becomes a brAhmaNa by karma ஜன்மனா ஜாயதெ சூத்ர: கர்மணா ஜாயதெ த்விஜ:| If this be true, even one born with some karkata vellaalar gene will become a brAhmaNa by karma. So, where is the question of "trija"? If "dwija" is a much higher level as compared to "ja" or "Ekaja", will not a "trija" be far superior to a "dwija"? And, last but not the least, where in our scriptures do we find sanction for/reference to "trija"?
I request Shri wrongan to kindly enlighten.
Dear sogom I have used the word"thrijan' to emphasise
that a person cannot be be dwijan(brahmin/three is
inferior to two) if his birth is not to a brahmin.It has
no place in sastras. Your qoute in tamil means a person
is not a brahmin unless he enters brahminical activities
from upanayanam.from that stage only he becomes
dwijan.will you please get clarified from better
educated person.
Sri.Wrongan said (to Sow.HH) -
Chatur varnyam maya srishtyam guna karma vibhakasa......
Based on one's guna and the karma, one would fall in one of the four classifications. But one's Guna keeps changing, so does the karma. It is impossible to group one permenantly in any one of the varnas. I know most people when hungry, sleepy and tired would be as calm as a grizzly bear with a tooth-ache. It is next to impossible for someone to stay Rajas or stay thamo all the time. What would you rationally think about my claim, please? Kindly discuss. Thanks.
Cheers!
Sri.Wrongan Sir, Greetings. I do not know much about Upanishads; I shall leave it to the scholars. I wish to discuss Srimad Baghavat Gita (SBG), please. To start with, for some persons, SBG is an addition added later on; I am not going in to that dispute now. Hypothetically assuming SBG as an authority, I wish to analyse 4:13. All it says is,
Chatur varnyam maya srishtyam guna karma vibhakasa......
Based on one's guna and the karma, one would fall in one of the four classifications. But one's Guna keeps changing, so does the karma. It is impossible to group one permenantly in any one of the varnas. I know most people when hungry, sleepy and tired would be as calm as a grizzly bear with a tooth-ache. It is next to impossible for someone to stay Rajas or stay thamo all the time. What would you rationally think about my claim, please? Kindly discuss. Thanks.
Cheers!
Brahmanyan
Active member
It is my view that "Vadama Tamil Brahmins" are migrants from Telugu Country. Aiyah the honorific added to the names among the Telugu people must have become Aiyars in Tamil. There is also a smartha group called "Vadadesathu Vadama", emphasising their origin from Northern States.
Regards,
Brahmanyan
Regards,
Brahmanyan
R
Ramacchandran
Guest
vikrama
0
Please see pages 49 to 53 of the link
http://www.omsakthionline.com/Downloads/March2009/part-1.pdf
http://www.omsakthionline.com/Downloads/March2009/part-1.pdf
Dear Raghy sir Namaskarams,The origin of Bagavath githa dates back to around 3000Bc. As per our jyothisha sastra KALIYUGAM started exactly at the close of Mahabaratha yudhdha. In the panchangam the varthamana kali sahabdham is 5111. so the date of Bagavath geetha has been established.Secondly as you have rightly said Chathur varnam was created based on their profession right.But people were changing their profession limited to certain hundred years are so ,after that age remained static based on their custom and conveniece.Because the vedhas was to be preserved Brahmins were not changing their
profession.For the same reason they were protected by Kshatriyas and sudra were asked to render help.Thus brahmin started living seperately and there by cultivated habits which suited them to learn and practice life as dictaed by sastras.Since their only profession is to learn and to teach they got the higherposition in the community.In latter days they were able to preserve the tradition.Their custom and way of life was so arranged that they were cosiderd as superior to others.The outfits in all the 4 castes were seperated from their groups (jathiprashtam) and called Panchaman.Now they are downtroden people.At least to some
extent some of them may trace their ancesteral links to brahmins .It is but natural.
Sir,
People have always been moving from northern regions to south. The current dravidian speakers once inhabited afghanisthan and central asia regions..
As regards the vadamas, i think they are closely related to some sections of the bengalis, andhras, oriyas (tribes included, not just castes)..
The mahabharat offers the requisite clues that anga, vanga, pundra, kalinga and suhma came from a common ancestry.
IMO, movement of people from top (north) to down (south) has been greater than movement from southindia into nothindia..
Actually, what we are seeing today is a mixed ancestry for everyone. From the naming patterns of the old folks also, we can elucidate this mixing factor. The Pallavas had names like Narasimha-varman as well as Skanda-varman. In Srilanka, the Kapurala priests consider Skanda as the son-in-law of Vishnu.
To begin with, each tribe must have had their own tutelary diety (kuladaivam who might have been, lets say, like either Skanda or Vishnu)...these old tribes wud have also developed their own totemic identification factors (even external identification marks), and so on.
But when tribes fought and eventually integrated (which was usually after one tribe lost to another), they wud have harmonized slowly and created a shared identity and even produced the requisite folklores to indicate the mergers..to me, some purana stories are actually indicative of these types of ancient mergers...
once the fantasy descriptive factors are removed, we may relate some puranic events to some events that really happened in historical times..
and to this day we can see 2 streams of people even within folks who are purported to come from the same set of merger events..some are strictly saivite, and some are strictly vaishnavite....and both sides hold on to their beleifs strongly....
regards..
Dear Wrongan,
The dharmashastras say that the sons born to a female slave (shudra) from dwija fathers (either brahmin, kshatriya or vaisha) are called Kshattri. These Khsatris are placed in the same category of the Chandala and Ayogava, as outcastes.
But if we were to go back into ancient times, the vedic speakers mated with native women. This was long before the period of the dharmashastras. So why are their sons not called kshatrris. Going by the definition of the dharmashastras, they too should be kshatris right, instead of brahmins (???)
Why did something of the prevedic-period or vedic-period change when it came to the dharmashastra-period? Please think over.
If there a conflict b/w what is known historically, and what is understood from the shastras; how do you think it should be resolved?
Regards.
Brahmanyan
Active member
Dear "Happyhindu",
Namaskaram,
I agree with your views on Brahmin Migration from North to south. Similarly Brahmin migration from South to North has also taken place some time in the past, mostly from "Dravidadesam". These Brahmins are called "Dravida Brahmanas" and the sir name "Dravid" added to their Names. They are spread over upto Maharashtra and Gujarat.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Namaskaram Brahmanyan Sir,
People have been migrating all different directions since a very-very long time indeed....
And for all the distinctiveness in various cultures we come across, people actually tend to be more similar than dis-similar.
Speaking of Trilinga desa of my previous post, that area too was Buddhist / Jain, and innumerable gods of various tribes have 'existed' there from times unknown ...
Even the Gods are more similar than dissimilar.....
sangom
0
Happy,
I thought they also consider Murugan as "marumaan" (sister's son) of Vishnu and not as son-in-law because the parentages of Valli and Deyvaanai are fixed. Is it wrong?
The uniqueness of the Aryan-led Hinduism was its cleverness and readiness to "engulf & devour" as many of the original tribal beliefs/totems/tutelary deities etc. Initially they did so from within the available Rigvedic pantheon - rudra with siva, vishnu as supreme, indra and varuna downgraded, brihaspati/prajapati downgraded and their status given to the brahma, the creator, etc. But when the number of new aspirants to be accommodated in this fashion exceeded the possibilities in the vedas, they invented newer and newer methods and also created the different puranas to justify these new deities! This is, of course, my pov.
Most puranic events are "reflections" of some actual conflict between two or more groups and the victors were, IMO, almost always the vedic people, but just to mollify and absorb the vanquished into their religious fold, the deity/totem of the vanquished was exalted in some puranic incident or another, and the gullible on both the sides - victors & the vanquished - believed it!
I am not too sure whether "kattarpanthi" (ultra conservative) vaishnavism existed in the times of M. Bh or Ramayana; IMO, such a thing starts with Prahlada's story in the Srimad Bhagavata. (Earlier references in taittiriya aranyaka and mahabharata did not project Vishnu as the sole supreme godhead, I think). By the time Abbe Dubois came to India (1770-1848) vaishnavism had established very much which, as we know, happened much earlier in the time of Ramanuja. I think this polarisation has nothing much to do with the puranic type of confrontations.
R
Ramacchandran
Guest
Dear Brahmanyan,
I was told by my father that we were the origin of Poona were Seven families were living near a mountain. These Seven famalies moved from Poona, and slowly spread to North Arcot, Chidambaram, Mayuram, Kumbhakonam and tiruvaroor. These families are identified as Vada desaththu Vadama.
I was told by my father that we were the origin of Poona were Seven families were living near a mountain. These Seven famalies moved from Poona, and slowly spread to North Arcot, Chidambaram, Mayuram, Kumbhakonam and tiruvaroor. These families are identified as Vada desaththu Vadama.
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