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Define a Brahmin please!!

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Namaskaram!!
I know many posts have been posted on this topic, ranging from marriage issues to traditional practices and social positions. Now many members posted many replies on a certain thread which dealt with inter caste marriages. My question is, is it not equally sinful for a 'practicing' Tamil Brahmin(please help me define one- I think it should definately include one whose theological and philosophical knowledge is profound and one who does not smoke, drink or eat non-vegetarian(mainly because Brahmins are supposed to follow a Satvik diet, this is the most basic pattern I can think of)) to marry one who may be the offspring of an unquestionably pious Brahmin family but may not be 'Brahmin' himself/herself? How can such a marriage be considered Brahmin?

A counter question is, what if a non-Brahmin is as Brahmin in practice as any Tamil Brahmin? Would exogamy be permitted then? Can they serve as priests, if they know all the mantras, their meaning and the Tatvas which, I know is a feature many Brahmin priests lack? The Arya Samaj would call them Brahmins, would we do the same? If, say a woman born to a Brahmin married a man Brahmin by Gunas, is she degrading herself?

I recall reading a lot of posts on genetics and hereditary traits among Brahmins. I recall a cousin of mine marrying a Brahmin 'suitable' who, well, was unorthodox(to put it in an understated way) and was praised by all for choosing to marry a Brahmin. When I pointed out that he was hardly Brahmin, I was told that no one was, really and I was being hypocritical, not to mention orthodox(by my mother, no less, who changed her gotra post marriage). I don't pretend to be a stickler for the rules(well, for the record I don't use the epithet Brahmin at all) but in that case, why all the show? Is that all we are, a mere bunch of middle-class and upper middle-class who wear a Thiruman Srichurnam (Namam is apparently a derogatory term, I was asked by a Swamiji not to use it) when required to?? Many replies seem to point in this direction. Another marriage, this time between a relative and a Syrian Christian only proved that castism is rooted in every Indian community(both sides opposed vehemently, giving the exact same points in opposition to the match and viewing the other with the exact same condescention.

I seriously doubt if my children are going to be Brahmin, or even Tamil for that matter(I think Hindi adn atheism will be keeping them occupied, whether they live in the U.S.A, Delhi or Chennai). But a clear curriculum for young children who are(by birth) or want to be Brahmin is in need. How much Sanskrit does one need? Tamil? Is English enough(I hope so)? Myths and blind faith will not help, so how does one instill the right values(ones that are peculiar to Brahmin families and devout members of other 'castes')?

A middle path- marry someone as 'Brahmin' as yourself. Well ok, so what happens if one wishes to marry a non-Brahmin(by birth) who is as 'Brahmin' as oneself? Or as 'non-Brahmin'(Gunas) as oneself? The only opposition then would some from society but hey, its just hypocrisy right?

Oh! I'm sorry, I did not mean to take a stand. I hope my questions will be answered.
 
Can we also have definition of a modern day Kshatriya,Vaishya and Sudra too.
It will be fair to every Varna.
Like what are duties of a modern day Kshatriya,Vaishya and Sudra and rules and regulations that make one qualify for the 2nd,3rd and 4th Varna.
Why does everyone want to be a Brahmin? What about other caste?
 
Ms.Meghavarshini,

You have reqested to define Brahmin, at least in context of present days, I believe.

Many a times, long ago, I heared brahmin parents/elders yelling at brahmin youngsters calling them "parayan" on account of using abusive languages with a peculiar tone. What I mean to say is, even many years back some brahmins were considered "parayans" for their behavior and habits (as per the definition of "parayans" by themselves).

So, there is nothing surprising now a days when many brahmin guys are into many habits and behavior (off course it's an indvidual choice/due many circumstances/obligations etc and am not into figuring out what is right and wrong) in this era, that we would require to clearly define what is Brahmin/who is Brahmin and than take a life time decision for marriege.

If not mistaken I would like at state that, it is prudential to know our self as what we want in married life and what we want our off springs to know. And live the way we like, without any repentance.

I am telling this because, a dream to change the Indian society altogether towards "No Cast" system would not come true, atleast for another 25 years, IMHO.
 
Hi Megh:

One request, Can you answer to all the questions you asked so that people will know your considered position?

Then, others will pitch in and argue what's their POV on each question!

Just a thought!

Cheers.
 
I think Meghavarshini's point is clear: Brahmin by worth, not by birth!

That said, are only Brahmins supposed to possess Satvik gunas, or those possessing those gunas should automatically be classified as Brahmins?
 
I am going to be an equestrian, learn martial arts, buy some weapons and do Ayudha Pooja without fail for all my weapons.

Preform Yagnas after fighting for womans right to preform Yagnas and also I should increase Rajo Guna in me and will I qualify to be a Kshatriya?Cos it does come with benefits..I can take off anyones head and also get to have Gandharva Marriage without informing anyone and get to gamble and drink also..

hey being Kshatriya is cool yaar..
 
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I think Meghavarshini's point is clear: Brahmin by worth, not by birth!

That said, are only Brahmins supposed to possess Satvik gunas, or those possessing those gunas should automatically be classified as Brahmins?
What about Shudra by worth, not by birth?

All this "who is a Brahmin?" is the height of Brahmnical narcissism. For all intents and purposes, a Brahmin is no more than a Mudaliyar or Chettiyar or Parayan, they all are caste and we get born into one of those castes. Brahmin is absolutely by birth, no more. We have as many compassionate and worthy Brahmins as Parayans. Unless by birth, nobody gets to be a Brahmin, never by worth.

Cheers!
 
I presume madam Megha varshini is a Brahmin by birth.Then I suggest that she may join another forum where only brahmins either by birth or by Guna are admitted as members.This has been discussed threadbare by many members.If she is interested she can send a PM to me indicating her Email ID and I will forward all the discussions for her information.
 
Namaskaram!!
I know many posts have been posted on this topic, ranging from marriage issues to traditional practices and social positions. Now many members posted many replies on a certain thread which dealt with inter caste marriages. My question is, is it not equally sinful for a 'practicing' Tamil Brahmin(please help me define one- I think it should definately include one whose theological and philosophical knowledge is profound and one who does not smoke, drink or eat non-vegetarian(mainly because Brahmins are supposed to follow a Satvik diet, this is the most basic pattern I can think of)) to marry one who may be the offspring of an unquestionably pious Brahmin family but may not be 'Brahmin' himself/herself? How can such a marriage be considered Brahmin?

A counter question is, what if a non-Brahmin is as Brahmin in practice as any Tamil Brahmin? Would exogamy be permitted then? Can they serve as priests, if they know all the mantras, their meaning and the Tatvas which, I know is a feature many Brahmin priests lack? The Arya Samaj would call them Brahmins, would we do the same? If, say a woman born to a Brahmin married a man Brahmin by Gunas, is she degrading herself?

I recall reading a lot of posts on genetics and hereditary traits among Brahmins. I recall a cousin of mine marrying a Brahmin 'suitable' who, well, was unorthodox(to put it in an understated way) and was praised by all for choosing to marry a Brahmin. When I pointed out that he was hardly Brahmin, I was told that no one was, really and I was being hypocritical, not to mention orthodox(by my mother, no less, who changed her gotra post marriage). I don't pretend to be a stickler for the rules(well, for the record I don't use the epithet Brahmin at all) but in that case, why all the show? Is that all we are, a mere bunch of middle-class and upper middle-class who wear a Thiruman Srichurnam (Namam is apparently a derogatory term, I was asked by a Swamiji not to use it) when required to?? Many replies seem to point in this direction. Another marriage, this time between a relative and a Syrian Christian only proved that castism is rooted in every Indian community(both sides opposed vehemently, giving the exact same points in opposition to the match and viewing the other with the exact same condescention.

I seriously doubt if my children are going to be Brahmin, or even Tamil for that matter(I think Hindi adn atheism will be keeping them occupied, whether they live in the U.S.A, Delhi or Chennai). But a clear curriculum for young children who are(by birth) or want to be Brahmin is in need. How much Sanskrit does one need? Tamil? Is English enough(I hope so)? Myths and blind faith will not help, so how does one instill the right values(ones that are peculiar to Brahmin families and devout members of other 'castes')?

A middle path- marry someone as 'Brahmin' as yourself. Well ok, so what happens if one wishes to marry a non-Brahmin(by birth) who is as 'Brahmin' as oneself? Or as 'non-Brahmin'(Gunas) as oneself? The only opposition then would some from society but hey, its just hypocrisy right?

Oh! I'm sorry, I did not mean to take a stand. I hope my questions will be answered.

I could not resist posting in this topic. We have two definitions of brahmins.

The scripture or text book definition which specifies a hundred rules for being a brahmin. There are hardly one or two in this world who might manage to pass this criterion. None in this forum, because if they had been following those rules, they would not have the time to participate in this forum.

The liberal definition of gunas. But frankly if we apply this definition there is no one who can be a brahmin all the time. Further there is no way to pass a judgement on anyone as nobody can read a person's mind and know his truthfulness. In this case also brahmin by guna remains a utopian concept.

Conclusion: Brahmin is one who is never seen or never known(even if seen) just like his divine counterpart brahman.
 
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I am going to be an equestrian, learn martial arts, buy some weapons and do Ayudha Pooja without fail for all my weapons.

Preform Yagnas after fighting for womans right to preform Yagnas and also I should increase Rajo Guna in me and will I qualify to be a Kshatriya?Cos it does come with benefits..I can take off anyones head and also get to have Gandharva Marriage without informing anyone and get to gamble and drink also..

hey being Kshatriya is cool yaar..

Very much enlightning post, dear Renuka,

Can you explain how to be a Shudra? In this present world, I think it's easy to be a Shudra (off course as per the definition of Shudra during olden days).

If all of us could become Shudra, than I guess, this world would be a very peaceful & hardworking single cumminity in Toto.


 
Very much enlightning post, dear Renuka,

Can you explain how to be a Shudra? In this present world, I think it's easy to be a Shudra (off course as per the definition of Shudra during olden days).

If all of us could become Shudra, than I guess, this world would be a very peaceful & hardworking single cumminity in Toto.



Ok to be modern day Shudra..1st we must set our alarm clocks real late and when it rings hit the snooze button and hit it again till we wake up real late(Slothful)

We are supposed to be Ignorant.So no need to think too hard.We can watch same old recycled Masala type movies that require no neuronal activity..even if we take a longer time to piss and miss half the movie we still know the ending of the story.

But wait a minute..we are supposed to be employed and only Vaishyas are self employed.
So if we are employed and wait for wages from employers we are Shudras.
 
How about this:

We all have a bit of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra etc in us. Every "Brahmin" has some "Shudra" in him/her and vice versa. Just a thought...
 
How about this:

We all have a bit of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra etc in us. Every "Brahmin" has some "Shudra" in him/her and vice versa. Just a thought...


Yup you are right!! Hope to see you more here in Forum.
 
How about this:

We all have a bit of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra etc in us. Every "Brahmin" has some "Shudra" in him/her and vice versa. Just a thought...

Sowbagyavathy Amala, Greetings. Long time, no see! Like you to see you more often, please.

Everyone behaves as a Brahmin, Kashtriya and Vaisya at different times in the same day. One behaves as a Sudra too. So, everyone has the traits for all the four varnas. Once I started a thread 'Who is Brahmanan' or something similar to that.... In that thread, I explained my view elobarately. Yes, you are right.

Cheers!
 
How about this:

We all have a bit of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra etc in us. Every "Brahmin" has some "Shudra" in him/her and vice versa. Just a thought...

Dear Amala,

Welcome back.

A very simple and sensible thought indeed...

 
How about this:

We all have a bit of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Shudra etc in us. Every "Brahmin" has some "Shudra" in him/her and vice versa. Just a thought...

dear amala,

what a delightful surprise !!!! welcome back and hope you will make your presence felt here more often. sure missed you.

re 'what defines a brahmin?'

who cares? i dont. being a hindu is good enough. who wants a caste label. mercifully i live in canada, and the children are canadians. so we can afford not to care. :)
 
Megh, Instead of asking who is a brahmin let us ask "Is it possible to be a brahmin these days ?" as defined by the scriptures. That would give some twist to the old question.

Let me give my opinion. Being a brahmin is something innate. Among humans, scriptures accord highest spiritual development to a brahmin. Contrast this with the modern day. One cannot be more materialistic. This is the environment surrounding the present day brahmin. So it is a fight between his innate spiritual quality and the extremely materialistic surroundings. It is my feeling unless the environment changes en masse , even brahmins are bound to be corrupted by it, if not now, in the very near generations.

The problem is, it takes one or two very weak moments to give up your even your cherished principle. The external pressure is so much and so corruptive that it is very difficult to fight isolated battles. The only factor that I can think of, that can save the brahmins and the world is an avatar of Vishnu.
 
Hi Megh:

One request, Can you answer to all the questions you asked so that people will know your considered position?

Then, others will pitch in and argue what's their POV on each question!

Just a thought!

Cheers.

Y,

yes. there are two threads, which have been initiated by meghavarshini.

her participation, however, i find, is not upto the level, to which interest has been created. we would like to hear where she stands on these, as these would help to steer the discussion to her satisfaction.

:)
 
yes. there are two threads, which have been initiated by meghavarshini.

her participation, however, i find, is not upto the level, to which interest has been created. we would like to hear where she stands on these, as these would help to steer the discussion to her satisfaction.
I agree, Megh needs to step up and engage. In my book, the OP has an obligation to fully participate.

Cheers!
 
அந்தணர் என்போர் அறவோர்மற் றெவ்வுயிர்க்கும்
செந்தண்மை பூண்டொழுக லான்.
 
நிலத்தியல்பால் நீர்திரிந் தற்றாகும் மாந்தர்க்கு
இனத்தியல்ப தாகும் அறிவு.

செயற்கரிய செய்வார் பெரியர் சிறியர்
செயற்கரிய செய்கலா தார்.

வையத்துள் வாழ்வாங்கு வாழ்பவன் வான்உநற்யும்
தெய்வத்துள் வைக்கப் படும்.

 
நிலத்தியல்பால் நீர்திரிந் தற்றாகும் மாந்தர்க்கு
இனத்தியல்ப தாகும் அறிவு.

செயற்கரிய செய்வார் பெரியர் சிறியர்
செயற்கரிய செய்கலா தார்.

வையத்துள் வாழ்வாங்கு வாழ்பவன் வான்உநற்யும்
தெய்வத்துள் வைக்கப் படும்.


Hi Harini:

Will you please elaborate your POV here?
 
Is this thread continuation of the thread:What makes one a Tamil Brahmin these days? ?? The looks of it seems so...

Meghavarshini, you have described a brahmin as "(1) one whose theological and philosophical knowledge is profound and (2) one who does not smoke, drink or eat non-vegetarian(mainly because Brahmins are supposed to follow a Satvik diet..". [I have marked 2 points as (1) and (2)].

Meghavarshini surely you are aware that all brahmins (like temple priests) are not required to have theological and / or philosophical knowledge. Temple priests are generally well versed in agamas (non-vedic).

A section of temple-priests are well-versed in portions of brahmanas (vedic texts on performing sacrifices), which ofcourse have nothing to do with philosophies. It is debatable if temple-priests adopted smrithis and if so how and when, from the theological pov.

Also, it is debatable if a grihasutra-following household purohit had anything to do with philosophies like advaitha or with the Upanishads in the pre-smrithi period.

Anyways, surely you must be atleast aware that meat consumption existed in the Vedas and is permitted for brahmins in the Smritis also. So am not sure why you wud define a brahmin in a generalized manner as you have with points 1 and 2.

BTW, am wondering when the claim came into effect that vegetarianism represents ‘brahmin culture’. Ritualistic priests claiming to be brahmins or brahmin-equivalents were meat-eaters even during the colonial period in certain parts of India.

As for the rest of your post, there are too many questions some of which am sorry to say are not clear / coherent [Example - I do not understand wht you mean by hair vibrations, and what exactly are you trying to convey / ask]. It wud be so much better if you cud respond to posts by Shri Nara and others asking for your participation (from my end am asking for clarity in your questions).

Regards.
 
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I recall reading a lot of posts on genetics and hereditary traits among Brahmins.
Unfortunately eugenics is promoted in the guise of genetics, by those who want to portray themselves in a certain manner. I suppose the question such people should be asking themselves is – who is a brahmin by heredity. With some effort such people wud end up discovering that folks of various tribal units performing ritualistic practices got elevated to brahminhood in historical times. Which wud mean that brahmins are no different from others ethnically, genetically.

A classic example is the Veddahs of Srilanka. Every single Veddah man knows to perform devil-dancing and involves in shamanism (they have many rituals to appease spirits of mountains, dead ancestors, some centered around fire or arrows, etc).

When some Veddah groups are settled in villages (which the srilankan government is aiding), they start involving in agriculture and show signs of changing slowly. From what i understand only a few (from such settlements) remain hunter-gatherers and keep up shamanism associated with hunts (i hear those who become farmers tend to be absorbed into the Sinhalese society via Buddhism).

Anyways, what am conveying is the lack of varnas wrt occupational differentiation amongst a single tribe. And also to say that the vedda hunter-shamans are not genetically different from the vedda farmers.

Going back into the past, this is how tribal units organised themselves into occupational sections. One section involves in record-keeping of their (tribal) events, genealogy, rituals to appease spirits, etc and some in time become dedicated just to that. This does not mean that those professing diff occupations are genetically different from others; although each occupation evolves its own rituals or customs.

As for evolving rituals based on occupation, one example is the weaver community. Like sculpturing, weaving was a sacred activity in the past.

A weaver was considered to have special knowledge and powers that enabled him to weave motifs / designs into clothes which cud ward off evil spirits or bring in divine grace. They have quite a few customs or rituals, prayers associated specifically with their craft (esp in north-east india), which ofcourse must have been evolved to appease the unknown. Quite likely those who were weaving threads must have worn a sacred thread themselves.

No wonder Thiruvalluvar was a weaver and was a parpanar (even today the Pallava culture of honoring a man with a ‘divine’ cloth exists...now they drape shawls to honour a man though, but we still offer clothes to Gods, to guests in weddings to honour them, etc.
Talk of development of culture...)

Anyways, what am conveying is the lack of varna wrt to jaati-based (birth-based) occupational organizations in the past, especially wrt eastern and southern india; and the subsequent clamoring for varna positions. Not just ritualistic priests, weavers too (have always) claimed brahmin varna position.

Classic examples are some tantis in bengal, the devangas and padmasalis in karnataka and andhra (some padmasalis are so similar ritually with the nandavarikas in certain parts of andhra, that i suspect some padmasalis upon urbanization / movement to another place / upward social mobility, cud have easily passed themselves off as nandavarikas in very-very recent times).

So… are brahmins different from others?? Lets say, over time, if farmers mate only amongst themselves (and not with tool-makers, weavers), then they may turn up specific alleles common amongst their group, meaning those specific alleles became common amongst them due to in-breeding over a long period of time.

Similarly the priests, the weavers, the tool-makers cud turn up specific alleles common only to their own group. This however does not mean that priests, weaver, tool-makers, farmers, etc descended from separate ancestors or had some sorta unique heredity exclusive only to their own group. It just means they were an in-breeding group.

But every group was at liberty to create their own stories about their own exclusive great supernatural origins
:) (So you have warriors springing up from fire and what not)....And now poor genetics is being applied to justify some such stories (like y-chromosome and gotras, genetics and hereditary traits among Brahmins, etc)...
 
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