Did we kill God?

[mkrishna100]

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Swami Dayananda Saraswati uses the word God inside a Murti but Rajiv Malhotra uses the term Deity inside a Murti...Deity is not God as far as I know.

So what the heck is going on?

If you want to understand Hinduism and Advaita better then better to study the talks , works and interviews of Swami Dayananda and he is very clear in his communication . There is a great difference in the way he has expounded the Gita and other Vedantic Texts compared to other previous Advaitic Teachers .As regards Rajiv Malhotra and other Pro Hindu Activists there is lot of mistakes in the way they use the words and they should not be taken as primary source .They have noble intentions but fall short of proper communication especially in these sort of matters Even in Advaita community there is lot of errors in the way the subject is communicated and I have stopped reading their works and stick Primarily to Swami Dayananda and some of his senior Disciples ( they are known as Arsha Vidya Teachers ) .

 

[thebigthinkg]

'mUrti' is not just an idol. mUrta is that which has settled into a form or shape. mUrti means embodiment or manifestation of something.

When scultpors carve or painters paint or we create, idol is created. prAna prathistha is the process by which we make the idol into an embodiment or manifestation or mUrti of a divinity.

Unless an idol or picture has gone through prAna prathisthA it is not an embodiment or manifestation. In all pUjas, we do prAna prathisthA to make that idol or picture into an embodiment or manifestation.

For eg. in Ganapati pUja, we invoke the Ganapati in the Idol. In Sarasvati Puja we invoke the sarasvati in the idol. We make the idols/pictures embodiment or manifestation of the divinity that we invoke.

if we believe 'aham brahma -asmi', that we have the brahman/evolution in us, we are giving that evolutionary power to the idol and
make it an embodiment of a divinity that we are invoking. That's the concept.

The steps of prAna prathisthA are
1. RSayadi nyAsa
2. Kara nyAsa
3. hrdayAdi nyAsa
4. dhyAna mantra
5. prAna prathisthA mantra

What does brahman, the evolution do..? It invokes the originators of Universe, Brahma, Vishnu, Maheswara (which I translate as spacetime, mass, energy). From them it invokes the Rk, Yaju, sAma (which I translate as quantum, classical and biological). This invocation when done by us on the idol, by reciting the mantras is called RSyAdi nyAsa.

Then comes Kara nyAsa. It appears at the outset as certain hand gestures through which energy is given to the idol. But I see it this way.

Brahman, the evolution progresses the biological evolution through evolution of chemical messenger/signaling system that regulates biological functioning. In humans it is through endocrine system. Our hands (notably the digit ratio) represents the influences of pre-natal endocrine. Hence we use the fingers of our hand to symbolically evolve that chemical messenger system in the idol. That is the kara nyAsa.

Then comes hrdyAdi nyAsa. Again it appears as if we are invoking energy in the idol through our heart, brain and other parts of our body. But I see it this way.

There are different organ systems for a living body. They are central and peripheral nervous (siras and shikha), circulatory (hrdaya), integumentary (kavasa), respiration, digestion, excretion (tri-netra) and locomotor (astra). We symbolically invoke these organ systems in the idol to make it a living body. This is the hrdyAdi nyAsa.

Then comes the pancha-prAna dhyAna mantra. Here panch-prAna is visualized as one 'devi' (the property of the idol) present in five different organ systems, with five weapons and three eyes. This pancha-prAna devi is invoked in the idol.

The five organ systems invoked are 1. raktam bodhi sta (awakened in the blood, circulatory) 2. poTa ullas (excretory) 3. sad aruNa (seated in digestive fire) 4. sarah ja (born in the movement, respiratory) 5. adhiruda karabjai (in the brain, nervous system). The three eyes by which she is recognized are sRsti, sthithi and samhAra. This pancha-prAna in us is meditated upon or invoked in the idol as prAna shakti that comes into the idol from us.

Then comes the prAna prathista mantra. This is in the form of 10 sounds followed by words 'Hamsa soham soham Hamsa". Then we invoke the ten indriyas in the idol and say life (jiva) has come into this idol making it a mUrthi, the embodiment. Then we pray to this mUrti and give some offerings to the mUrti.

I see it this way. Following the chemical messenger system, the other organ systems being invoked in the idol, the five core functions are meditated upon and invoked in the idol, we invoke the ten indriyas (as in us) in the idol with ten different sounds. Then we recite aHam sa sa aham; sa aham aHam sa. This invokes the 'self' (aham) in us in the idol.

The aham in us is the Brahman, the evolution. We invoke this Brahman in us, in the idol, which already has all biological functions and the indriyas. This invocation of aham sa sa aham in the idol invokes the brahman, gives it the 'jiva', the life. Thus the idol has become a mUrti, the embodiment of the devata.

****

The process above is not 'creating' Brahman. It is invoking the Brahman in the idol through a set of procedures which make the idol similar to a biological being with brahman in it. One may believe or not believe in the process. The process itself is logical, but is based on one's faith.

-TBT

 

[Vaagmi]

'mUrti' is not just an idol. mUrta is that which has settled into a form or shape. mUrti means embodiment or manifestation of something.

When scultpors carve or painters paint or we create, idol is created. prAna prathistha is the process by which we make the idol into an embodiment or manifestation or mUrti of a divinity.

Unless an idol or picture has gone through prAna prathisthA it is not an embodiment or manifestation. In all pUjas, we do prAna prathisthA to make that idol or picture into an embodiment or manifestation.

For eg. in Ganapati pUja, we invoke the Ganapati in the Idol. In Sarasvati Puja we invoke the sarasvati in the idol. We make the idols/pictures embodiment or manifestation of the divinity that we invoke.

if we believe 'aham brahma -asmi', that we have the brahman/evolution in us, we are giving that evolutionary power to the idol and
make it an embodiment of a divinity that we are invoking. That's the concept.

The steps of prAna prathisthA are
1. RSayadi nyAsa
2. Kara nyAsa
3. hrdayAdi nyAsa
4. dhyAna mantra
5. prAna prathisthA mantra

What does brahman, the evolution do..? It invokes the originators of Universe, Brahma, Vishnu, Maheswara (which I translate as spacetime, mass, energy). From them it invokes the Rk, Yaju, sAma (which I translate as quantum, classical and biological). This invocation when done by us on the idol, by reciting the mantras is called RSyAdi nyAsa.

Then comes Kara nyAsa. It appears at the outset as certain hand gestures through which energy is given to the idol. But I see it this way.

Brahman, the evolution progresses the biological evolution through evolution of chemical messenger/signaling system that regulates biological functioning. In humans it is through endocrine system. Our hands (notably the digit ratio) represents the influences of pre-natal endocrine. Hence we use the fingers of our hand to symbolically evolve that chemical messenger system in the idol. That is the kara nyAsa.

Then comes hrdyAdi nyAsa. Again it appears as if we are invoking energy in the idol through our heart, brain and other parts of our body. But I see it this way.

There are different organ systems for a living body. They are central and peripheral nervous (siras and shikha), circulatory (hrdaya), integumentary (kavasa), respiration, digestion, excretion (tri-netra) and locomotor (astra). We symbolically invoke these organ systems in the idol to make it a living body. This is the hrdyAdi nyAsa.

Then comes the pancha-prAna dhyAna mantra. Here panch-prAna is visualized as one 'devi' (the property of the idol) present in five different organ systems, with five weapons and three eyes. This pancha-prAna devi is invoked in the idol.

The five organ systems invoked are 1. raktam bodhi sta (awakened in the blood, circulatory) 2. poTa ullas (excretory) 3. sad aruNa (seated in digestive fire) 4. sarah ja (born in the movement, respiratory) 5. adhiruda karabjai (in the brain, nervous system). The three eyes by which she is recognized are sRsti, sthithi and samhAra. This pancha-prAna in us is meditated upon or invoked in the idol as prAna shakti that comes into the idol from us.

Then comes the prAna prathista mantra. This is in the form of 10 sounds followed by words 'Hamsa soham soham Hamsa". Then we invoke the ten indriyas in the idol and say life (jiva) has come into this idol making it a mUrthi, the embodiment. Then we pray to this mUrti and give some offerings to the mUrti.

I see it this way. Following the chemical messenger system, the other organ systems being invoked in the idol, the five core functions are meditated upon and invoked in the idol, we invoke the ten indriyas (as in us) in the idol with ten different sounds. Then we recite aHam sa sa aham; sa aham aHam sa. This invokes the 'self' (aham) in us in the idol.

The aham in us is the Brahman, the evolution. We invoke this Brahman in us, in the idol, which already has all biological functions and the indriyas. This invocation of aham sa sa aham in the idol invokes the brahman, gives it the 'jiva', the life. Thus the idol has become a mUrti, the embodiment of the devata.

****

The process above is not 'creating' Brahman. It is invoking the Brahman in the idol through a set of procedures which make the idol similar to a biological being with brahman in it. One may believe or not believe in the process. The process itself is logical, but is based on one's faith.

-TBT

Well said.

 

[prasad1]

If prana Pratista has to be performed by HUMANS, then Humans created Moorti out of an Idol, a carving etc.
If Human created moorti then it is not GOD.

Why is it so difficult to understand that Humans created Moorti, idol, deity etc.
By definition, Brahman is not created by a Human being, even though the concept is of human origin.

The Gulu dolls of Vishnu is no different than Temple idol, except that a Human has chanted some "hocus- Pokus " on it.
If Kids play with Barbie-ken dolls, the adult play with Ram-Sita. In the end, there is no difference except for the imagination.

 

[prasad1]

There is another convoluted explanation given by a skilled Talker.


Sadhguru: Pratishtha means consecration. The most common form of consecration is by using mantras, rituals and other kinds of processes. If you consecrate a form through mantras, it needs constant maintenance. In India, traditionally we have been told not to keep stone idols at home because you will have to maintain them every day with the right kind of pooja and other things. If a deity consecrated through mantras is not kept up on a daily basis, it becomes a withdrawing energy and can cause immense harm to people who live in the vicinity. Unfortunately many temples have become like this because of improper maintenance. People do not know how to keep it alive.

Prana pratishtha is not like that. A form is consecrated through life energies, not with mantras or rituals. Once it is established, it is forever and needs no maintenance. That is the reason why there are no poojas in Dhyanalinga because it doesn’t need anything. Rituals in temples are done not for your sake but to keep the deity alive. Otherwise, it will slowly die. Dhyanalinga doesn’t need that maintenance because it has been consecrated through prana pratishtha. It will always be like that. Even if you take away the stone part of the linga, it will still be like that. If the whole world comes to an end, that form will still remain.You cannot destroy it.

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/sadhguru/mystic/prana-pratishtha

 

[thebigthinkg]

If prana Pratista has to be performed by HUMANS, then Humans created Moorti out of an Idol, a carving etc.
If Human created moorti then it is not GOD.

Why is it so difficult to understand that Humans created Moorti, idol, deity etc.
By definition, Brahman is not created by a Human being, even though the concept is of human origin.

The Gulu dolls of Vishnu is no different than Temple idol, except that a Human has chanted some "hocus- Pokus " on it.
If Kids play with Barbie-ken dolls, the adult play with Ram-Sita. In the end, there is no difference except for the imagination.

In a way all human thoughts, words, beliefs are hocus-pocus. They have little impact in the scale of Universe or earth or even their own regions or at times even their own bodies.

I just tried to explain the 'steps' and 'rationale' of what you termed as 'hocus-pocus'.

Because of my hocus-pocus recitations the idol that I place in puja or temple become an embodiment, for me. Ofcourse the idol is human made. But the prAna sakthi in it which makes it the mUrthi comes from my belief on the hocus-pocus (which is invoking the brahman in me on the idol).

If I go to vAgmi's example, the flag is a simple colored piece of cloth. But when it is hoisted as a flag, it invokes some emotions and faith in people which purely arises from the individual's beliefs and faiths.

It is the same Akbar and Birbal story. Stand in pond all through the night, thinking of how warm it will be with the far away light. The heat comes from the thoughts and not from the far off light.

-TBT

 

[thebigthinkg]

There is another convoluted explanation given by a skilled Talker.


Sadhguru: Pratishtha means consecration. The most common form of consecration is by using mantras, rituals and other kinds of processes. If you consecrate a form through mantras, it needs constant maintenance. In India, traditionally we have been told not to keep stone idols at home because you will have to maintain them every day with the right kind of pooja and other things. If a deity consecrated through mantras is not kept up on a daily basis, it becomes a withdrawing energy and can cause immense harm to people who live in the vicinity. Unfortunately many temples have become like this because of improper maintenance. People do not know how to keep it alive.

Prana pratishtha is not like that. A form is consecrated through life energies, not with mantras or rituals. Once it is established, it is forever and needs no maintenance. That is the reason why there are no poojas in Dhyanalinga because it doesn’t need anything. Rituals in temples are done not for your sake but to keep the deity alive. Otherwise, it will slowly die. Dhyanalinga doesn’t need that maintenance because it has been consecrated through prana pratishtha. It will always be like that. Even if you take away the stone part of the linga, it will still be like that. If the whole world comes to an end, that form will still remain.You cannot destroy it.

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/sadhguru/mystic/prana-pratishtha

Well I explained the prAna prathistha mantras in steps as we perform in every pUja.

It is forever, maintenance free etc are not in the prAna prathista mantras and we can weave our own philosophies around it. I am not a guru or acharya or pandita or not even a swamiji to do so. Just an idol worshipping grhastha.

-TBT

 

[prasad1]

If you want to understand Hinduism and Advaita better then better to study the talks , works and interviews of Swami Dayananda and he is very clear in his communication . There is a great difference in the way he has expounded the Gita and other Vedantic Texts compared to other previous Advaitic Teachers .As regards Rajiv Malhotra and other Pro Hindu Activists there is lot of mistakes in the way they use the words and they should not be taken as primary source .They have noble intentions but fall short of proper communication especially in these sort of matters Even in Advaita community there is lot of errors in the way the subject is communicated and I have stopped reading their works and stick Primarily to Swami Dayananda and some of his senior Disciples ( they are known as Arsha Vidya Teachers ) .

I have relatives who live in Dayananda Ashram, I have attended many camps. I have stayed in their Pennsylvania campus many times. I knew of him personally when he was with Swami Chimamanda. I have attended many of his lectures, and he has visited my house.

I do not need any introduction to him. I believe he is an honorable person.
But he is a person, he lived his life and died after a prolonged suffering.

We attach too much importance to Guruji, God-persons, Popes, preachers, Imams, etc.
None have to have any valid qualifications.


Would you go to a butcher for brain surgery? But happily accept some Mumbo-jumbo from a person in a robe.

Being the Chairperson of the Temple I have personally been involved in the selection of Moorti, getting it made, Arranging for the proper priest to do the Pranapratishta, I know the rituals. But the end of the day it is magic with some angel dust, with loud chanting in Sanskrit (or double Dutch) which majority of people do not understand.

If you believe it then it is, if, on the other hand, you do not have the faith it is all show.
There is no visible change in the Moorthy, there is no force, it does not glow or anything. I was gullible, I am not anymore.

 

[mkrishna100]

I have relatives who live in Dayananda Ashram, I knew of him personally when he was with Swami Chimamanda.
I do not need any introduction to him. I believe he is an honorable person.

We attach too much importance to Guruji, God-persons, Popes, preachers, Imams, etc.
None have to have any valid qualifications.

Would you go to a butcher for brain surgery? But happily accept some Mumbo-jumbo from a person in a robe.

Where did I say just accept something blindly because someone is Monk or Guru .I have said even among many Advaitic Teachers Swami Dayananda stands out for his clarity with which he communicates and gives the vision of the Sastras and also for the various Sanskrit Texts . In fact he came out of Chinmaya Mission because of the difference he had in the way Sastras were explained and communicated and he felt there was lot of errors in the way many popular teachers communicated . Swami Dayananda himself once got disgusted with this whole thing and decided to quit until he came across Swami Parnavananda of Gudivada ( who was earlier with Ramana Maharshi ) and from Swami Pranavananda he got the right vision and clarity . Kindly read his works on Gita and Upanishads and decide for yourself .

 

[prasad1]

Well I explained the prAna prathistha mantras in steps as we perform in every pUja.

It is forever, maintenance free etc are not in the prAna prathista mantras and we can weave our own philosophies around it. I am not a guru or acharya or pandita or not even a swamiji to do so. Just an idol worshipping grhastha.

-TBT

If you believe that it is a snake and avoid it, it is safe. You might miss on getting the wealth on which that so-called snake was sitting, but on the other hand, you try to get the wealth and get bitten by the poisonous snake then the risk was not worth it.
Let us say you are Newzeland, where there are no poisonous snakes, the risk of assuming it to be rope are minimal. Then it would be foolish to miss out the wealth.

If you believe that idol is going to provide you with what you desire, there is nothing wrong as long as you take the risk of being disappointed. More importantly, you may miss out on the true knowledge of Self.

I do not know, nor do I pretend to know God, self, Atma, etc.

 

[prasad1]

Where did I say just accept something blindly because someone is Monk or Guru .I have said even among many Advaitic Teachers Swami Dayananda stands out for his clarity with which he communicates and gives the vision of the Sastras and also for the various Sanskrit Texts . In fact he came out of Chinmaya Mission because of the difference he had in the way Sastras were explained and communicated and he felt there was lot of errors in the way many popular teachers communicated . Swami Dayananda himself once got disgusted with this whole thing and decided to quit until he came across Swami Parnavananda of Gudivada ( who was earlier with Ramana Maharshi ) and from Swami Pranavananda he got the right vision and clarity . Kindly read his works on Gita and Upanishads and decide for yourself .

I have read all the books written by him and his other disciples. Thank you. There was a stage in my life Swami Chimamanda's words meant something, but now they are words only. I see them all in a different light.
When you go to Sankaracharya mutts and see the ritualism being practiced, It is a shock.
They all turn out to the wizard behind the Curtain. (Wizard of OZ), nothing more.

 

[prasad1]

If I go to vAgmi's example, the flag is a simple colored piece of cloth. But when it is hoisted as a flag, it invokes some emotions and faith in people which purely arises from the individual's beliefs and faiths.

That is not the correct simily. We do not pray to the flag and assume the SC will honor it.
But we pray to Idol and expect God to honor it, That is the fallacy.

A stone or anything else is Brahman whether shaped by a human being or found in the river bed. No prana pratishta needed.
By definition everything is Brahman, and everything is in Brahman.

 

[agopal]

Some corrections:

1) Every"thing" that you can conceive of and that you have named is part of Nishkala(without division) /Nirguna(without properties) Brahman.
Corollary: There are "unnamed" and "unfathomed". Not necessarily things as you have conceived.
Since we cannot describe that no words suffice! Hence <blank>

2) Prana Prathista is summoning the Saguna Brahman (Brahman with attributes such as consciousness) that can at least make sense of something called worship and that you are doing it etc..etc.in so and so "part" of so and so part of this time and space etc. etc. closely related to Mula Prakritri. Many of the Prana prathista mantras are offshoots of Shakthi Kuta, Kula Kuta etc. which are groups of sounds like Yam, Vam, Lam, Sham, etc.. I can go as far as saying they could be real Mathematical Group out of Group Theory. Because they are Bija(seed) mantras that generates every "thing" . Interestingly, the Mathematical groups/fields also have a generator element. You could imagine Om to be the root generator sound element that generated all the sounds which are Things.
You could find details in Varivasya Rahasya and various Kundalini yoga books. I'd recommend The Serpent Power by Arthur Avalon as well Besides Sama veda translations "Sama Veda" book by S.V.Ganapathy

3) Para Brahman is beyond 1) and 2). If I say Para Brahman it barely describes it to say the least.

Prana Prathishta is a well intended procedure by early sages to ward away evil( part of (1) ) and bring in the life force (2) into a Jada porul like a stone. Do NOT say it is not needed.

 

[prasad1]

Some corrections:

1) Every"thing" that you can conceive of and that you have named is part of Nishkala(without division) /Nirguna(without properties) Brahman.
Corollary: There are "unnamed" and "unfathomed". Not necessarily things as you have conceived.
Since we cannot describe that no words suffice! Hence <blank>

2) Prana Prathista is summoning the Saguna Brahman (Brahman with attributes such as consciousness) that can at least make sense of something called worship and that you are doing it etc..etc.in so and so "part" of so and so part of this time and space etc. etc. closely related to Mula Prakritri. Many of the Prana prathista mantras are offshoots of Shakthi Kuta, Kula Kuta etc. which are groups of sounds like Yam, Vam, Lam, Sham, etc.. I can go as far as saying they could be real Mathematical Group out of Group Theory. Because they are Bija(seed) mantras that generates every "thing" . Interestingly, the Mathematical groups/fields also have a generator element. You could imagine Om to be the root generator sound element that generated all the sounds which are Things.
You could find details in Varivasya Rahasya and various Kundalini yoga books. I'd recommend The Serpent Power by Arthur Avalon as well Besides Sama veda translations "Sama Veda" book by S.V.Ganapathy

3) Para Brahman is beyond 1) and 2). If I say Para Brahman it barely describes it to say the least.

Prana Prathishta is a well intended procedure by early sages to ward away evil( part of (1) ) and bring in the life force (2) into a Jada porulSir I do not like a stone. Do NOT say it is not needed.

Sir, I do not mean any disrespect to you, but the words of Human do not turn a statue to God.
The words can be bij, can be Veda, can be some sastra, but they are words of Human beings.
A magician does a better trick of converting an empty box to a beautiful girl, I know it is not real, but I am mesmerized. But a Prana Pratishta of stone idol into a God did not impress me.


[video=youtube_share;e1yjTxtq6M8]https://youtu.be/e1yjTxtq6M8[/video]

 

[agopal]

The Mantra words are not to turn the statue into God. But to invoke the Brahman in you so it can see (itself) that "you" or your jivatma is doing puja to Brahman.
In a proper Prana Prathishta, there is mantra to make your self god Aam Hrudaya Namah( Heart), Hreem Sirasae swaha(fore head), Krom shikhaya vasht( Shikha, the back side top of your head where there is something called Bhrahmarandiram or oochi kuzhi in tamil through which acheived Yogins self leave the body) and Continuing on Aam Kavachaya Vasht( shoulders), Hreem Nethra Threya Vowsht( Eyes/Eye brows) Krom asthraya pat( snap fingers in 4 directions) And finally you say the worlds Bhur, Bhuvat, Swarg worlds bind the directions of Brahman so temporarily it can focus on you. The Life force then witnesses your puja to the stone knowing your jivatma is actually praying to a part of Brahman( stone) that you consider temporarily to be Complete Brahman with Lifeforce and that you are doing it sincerely without any impurities of Mind ( pure thoughts), body(clean) and Soul(with Sheer Bhakti). Once the puja is done you do something called Upasthanam to ask the Life force to go back to whatever it was doing and you elevate down to mortality. Yes, the mantras are well-intention-ed and does Help your mind and the Brahman in you to be peaceful. Whether it grants any of your Lowkika( worldly) wishes is "as appropriate" according to your overall Karma. It is the Supreme consciousness(Param Atma or God) to which you are praying to, through your Jiva atma( your consciousness) while realizing that everything emanated from the Paramatma including the stone and your Jivatma. That is the intent.

 

[prasad1]

The Mantra words are not to turn the statue into God. But to invoke the Brahman in you so it can see (itself) that "you" or your jivatma is doing puja to Brahman.
In a proper Prana Prathishta, there is mantra to make your self god Aam Hrudaya Namah( Heart), Hreem Sirasae swaha(fore head), Krom shikhaya vasht( Shikha, the back side top of your head where there is something called Bhrahmarandiram or oochi kuzhi in tamil through which acheived Yogins self leave the body) and Continuing on Aam Kavachaya Vasht( shoulders), Hreem Nethra Threya Vowsht( Eyes/Eye brows) Krom asthraya pat( snap fingers in 4 directions) And finally you say the worlds Bhur, Bhuvat, Swarg worlds bind the directions of Brahman so temporarily it can focus on you. The Life force then witnesses your puja to the stone knowing your jivatma is actually praying to a part of Brahman( stone) that you consider temporarily to be Complete Brahman with Lifeforce and that you are doing it sincerely without any impurities of Mind ( pure thoughts), body(clean) and Soul(with Sheer Bhakti). Once the puja is done you do something called Upasthanam to ask the Life force to go back to whatever it was doing and you elevate down to mortality. Yes, the mantras are well-intention-ed and does Help your mind and the Brahman in you to be peaceful. Whether it grants any of your Lowkika( worldly) wishes is "as appropriate" according to your overall Karma. It is the Supreme consciousness(Param Atma or God) to which you are praying to, through your Jiva atma( your consciousness) while realizing that everything emanated from the Paramatma including the stone and your Jivatma. That is the intent.

Sir,
I have no argument with your belief.

Everything is Brahman and every object is in Brahman. I do not have to create anything, and I CAN not create anything that is not Brahman. So why do I have to do Prana Pratistha? I do not Know?

If you believed the earth is flat and that you can fall off the edge, no one can change your opinion unless you believe in science.
Similarly, if you believe that you have Captured Brahman in stone, wood, or clay, I can not disprove it, but I do not have to believe it either.


Flat Earth societies have long been criticized, due to scientific observations that have disproved and discredited the belief. This includes photographs showing the Earth as a sphere.
Eugenie Scott called the group an example of "extreme Biblical-literalist theology: The earth is flat because the Bible says it is flat, regardless of what science tells us".

 

[renuka]

There is another convoluted explanation given by a skilled Talker.


Sadhguru: Pratishtha means consecration. The most common form of consecration is by using mantras, rituals and other kinds of processes. If you consecrate a form through mantras, it needs constant maintenance. In India, traditionally we have been told not to keep stone idols at home because you will have to maintain them every day with the right kind of pooja and other things. If a deity consecrated through mantras is not kept up on a daily basis, it becomes a withdrawing energy and can cause immense harm to people who live in the vicinity. Unfortunately many temples have become like this because of improper maintenance. People do not know how to keep it alive.

Prana pratishtha is not like that. A form is consecrated through life energies, not with mantras or rituals. Once it is established, it is forever and needs no maintenance. That is the reason why there are no poojas in Dhyanalinga because it doesn’t need anything. Rituals in temples are done not for your sake but to keep the deity alive. Otherwise, it will slowly die. Dhyanalinga doesn’t need that maintenance because it has been consecrated through prana pratishtha. It will always be like that. Even if you take away the stone part of the linga, it will still be like that. If the whole world comes to an end, that form will still remain.You cannot destroy it.

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/sadhguru/mystic/prana-pratishtha

So a temple or idol too can be a source of harm?

I just have a problem here...that is why are humans deciding Gods abode?
By consecreating Him etc.

That is what I am not happy about...shouldnt we give God more respect by not trying to invoke Him into an object?

 

[renuka]

If you want to understand Hinduism and Advaita better then better to study the talks , works and interviews of Swami Dayananda and he is very clear in his communication . There is a great difference in the way he has expounded the Gita and other Vedantic Texts compared to other previous Advaitic Teachers .As regards Rajiv Malhotra and other Pro Hindu Activists there is lot of mistakes in the way they use the words and they should not be taken as primary source .They have noble intentions but fall short of proper communication especially in these sort of matters Even in Advaita community there is lot of errors in the way the subject is communicated and I have stopped reading their works and stick Primarily to Swami Dayananda and some of his senior Disciples ( they are known as Arsha Vidya Teachers ) .

I have read some of his works..
Its a mixture of Advaita and Agama shastras..hardly any Guruji divorces Agama Shastra from their talks.
Dayanand Saraswati stresses importance of rituals too.

I am not anti rituals but its just that I dont want to subscribe to any activity that "creates" a God form.

We say we finally know not and have to become Brahman to know Brahman yet we keep making God.

I dont want Ken or Barbie..I want God.

 

[renuka]

There is another convoluted explanation given by a skilled Talker.


Sadhguru: Pratishtha means consecration. The most common form of consecration is by using mantras, rituals and other kinds of processes. If you consecrate a form through mantras, it needs constant maintenance. In India, traditionally we have been told not to keep stone idols at home because you will have to maintain them every day with the right kind of pooja and other things. If a deity consecrated through mantras is not kept up on a daily basis, it becomes a withdrawing energy and can cause immense harm to people who live in the vicinity. Unfortunately many temples have become like this because of improper maintenance. People do not know how to keep it alive.

Prana pratishtha is not like that. A form is consecrated through life energies, not with mantras or rituals. Once it is established, it is forever and needs no maintenance. That is the reason why there are no poojas in Dhyanalinga because it doesn’t need anything. Rituals in temples are done not for your sake but to keep the deity alive. Otherwise, it will slowly die. Dhyanalinga doesn’t need that maintenance because it has been consecrated through prana pratishtha. It will always be like that. Even if you take away the stone part of the linga, it will still be like that. If the whole world comes to an end, that form will still remain.You cannot destroy it.

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/sadhguru/mystic/prana-pratishtha

So Dhyana Lingam seems to be like Hajjar Aswad of the Ka'bah.
The stone was cracked once but reinforced again becos it seems nothing changes.

The Hajjar Aswad is situated at the side of the Ka'bah and is globular..very much like a Shiva Lingam.

Anyway so a Dhyana Lingam is not a Deity since it doesnt need maintenance nor it dies or has whims and fancies nor keeps women out etc.

So its a symbol not an idol!

Lingam means Leeyate Gamyate..that into which the whole creation merges into.

But again..Sadhgurus definition of Prana Pratishta is different from other Gurus.
Other Gurus use the same term even to create a deity.

So finally everyone gives a different definition.

Isnt there reference text for a a definite terminology?

 

[Raji Ram]

Now that Prasad Sir is 'enlightened', I guess he would have resigned his post in the temple!!

Why visit a temple where there is NO force?

 

[thebigthinkg]

If you believe that it is a snake and avoid it, it is safe. You might miss on getting the wealth on which that so-called snake was sitting, but on the other hand, you try to get the wealth and get bitten by the poisonous snake then the risk was not worth it.
Let us say you are Newzeland, where there are no poisonous snakes, the risk of assuming it to be rope are minimal. Then it would be foolish to miss out the wealth.

If you believe that idol is going to provide you with what you desire, there is nothing wrong as long as you take the risk of being disappointed. More importantly, you may miss out on the true knowledge of Self.

I do not know, nor do I pretend to know God, self, Atma, etc.

Please do read the detailed prAna prathistha mantra, I wrote. There is a logical sequence to it, which is the sequence expressed in almost all scriptures. Invoking the Rsi (Brahma, vishnu maheswara which I translate as spacetime/energy/mass), chanda (Rk, Yaju, sAma which I translate as quantum/classical/biological), the devata, the kara nyAsa (which i translate as establishing the endocrine), the hrdayAdi nyAsa (which I translate as organ sytems of circulatory, nervous, musculo-skeletal, integumentary, etc etc etc), dhyAna mantra (invoking the five critical organs with three functions of creation, stability, annihilation), prAna prathistha mantra (invoking the pancha-prAna devi with ten indriyas as ten sounds and the aham in it).

In the way you believe there is a brahman in all the Universe's particles, the above is a belief of invoking a biological evolution in an idol (which is the prAna prathistha), giving it the brahman (evolution) capability and believing with prAna prathitha, the idol becomes a mUrthi, an embodiment (not idol)

Both belief are hypothesis. A hypothesis remains just a belief, if no work is done to prove/disprove it. A hypothesis becomes knowledge when one attempts to prove or disprove the hypothesis and evolves that hypothesis into a different one based on the search. People who want knowledge have to indulge in this search.

But people can operate in belief domain or knowledge domain.

There is nothing wrong in having a belief, as long as that belief does not blind you. Belief/faith are like 'salt'. Spice the life up with them, but you can't live on Salt alone. You have to use the salt to add taste to your food, so that you eat the food that is healthy to you. I operate some part in belief domain.

Philosophies come out of science due to mis-understanding, non-understanding or over-understanding (finding patterns across domains). All philosophies have some rationale and logic in them. People who indulge in philosophies operate in the knowledge domain (not in the belief domain). As long as one is equipped to question their own rationale/logic/philosophies and evolve out of these philosophies (convert hypothesis to knowledge and evolve that hypothesis into a different one), there is nothing wrong in any philosophy. Those philosophies that stagnate, do not evolve, perish (like any other mundane things of this Universe).

-TBT

 

[mkrishna100]

I have read all the books written by him and his other disciples. Thank you. There was a stage in my life Swami Chimamanda's words meant something, but now they are words only. I see them all in a different light.
When you go to Sankaracharya mutts and see the ritualism being practiced, It is a shock.
They all turn out to the wizard behind the Curtain. (Wizard of OZ), nothing more.

Again you have not read what I have written and jumping into conclusions .I have not talked in favor of Chinmayananda ( in fact I have mentioned why Dayananda left Chinmaya ) and never talked about Shankara Mutt or or its rituals and I do not know why you are bringing them here . Anyway I have nothing more to add in this discussion .

 

[mkrishna100]

I have read some of his works..
Its a mixture of Advaita and Agama shastras..hardly any Guruji divorces Agama Shastra from their talks.
Dayanand Saraswati stresses importance of rituals too.

I am not anti rituals but its just that I dont want to subscribe to any activity that "creates" a God form.

We say we finally know not and have to become Brahman to know Brahman yet we keep making God.

I dont want Ken or Barbie..I want God.

Dayananda is a pure teacher of Advaita and he answers questions related to Agamas etc as all his Ashrams do have a temple and rituals are being done there . His only strict point is taking Vedas as a Pramana for understanding Advaita and he was bold enough in bringing women and non Brahmins into the Ashrams to study Vedanta and also initiated them into sannyasa and many of them are teachers . But the rituals etc in Dayananda Ashrams are just a short part compared to Traditional Mutts and the focus is on studying Sanskrit and Studying the Original Texts properly in Sanskrit without relying on the English versions . This is what stands out him from other Teachers teaching Advaita in English though they have good intentions but lack of proper sanskrit knowledge hampers their lack of clarity in conveying this properly and this was also one of t he reasons why he left Chinmaya and that is why you can see a huge difference between Dayananda's version of Gita and Chinmaya's version of Gita .
Apart from studying Dayananda's works on Advaita I suggest you study Ganapathi Stapathi's works ( refer wikipedia and youtube for the same ) He was the one who made the 133 ft Thiruvalluvar statue ) to understand the significance and science behind Temples . He is a real expert of Vaastu Sastra and not the various others who come on TV talking about Vaastu Sastras . Read the works of Both and form your own opinion .

 

[renuka]

Dayananda is a pure teacher of Advaita and he answers questions related to Agamas etc as all his Ashrams do have a temple and rituals are being done there . His only strict point is taking Vedas as a Pramana for understanding Advaita and he was bold enough in bringing women and non Brahmins into the Ashrams to study Vedanta and also initiated them into sannyasa and many of them are teachers . But the rituals etc in Dayananda Ashrams are just a short part compared to Traditional Mutts and the focus is on studying Sanskrit and Studying the Original Texts properly in Sanskrit without relying on the English versions . This is what stands out him from other Teachers teaching Advaita in English though they have good intentions but lack of proper sanskrit knowledge hampers their lack of clarity in conveying this properly and this was also one of t he reasons why he left Chinmaya and that is why you can see a huge difference between Dayananda's version of Gita and Chinmaya's version of Gita .
Apart from studying Dayananda's works on Advaita I suggest you study Ganapathi Stapathi's works ( refer wikipedia and youtube for the same ) He was the one who made the 133 ft Thiruvalluvar statue ) to understand the significance and science behind Temples . He is a real expert of Vaastu Sastra and not the various others who come on TV talking about Vaastu Sastras . Read the works of Both and form your own opinion .

Will do.

But what about your opinion on this:

[FONT=&quot]Why Does the Qur’an not introduce us to the Physical Attributes of God?[/FONT]

• Because of the limitations of human languages and comprehension explained above, man is not in a position to understand and comprehend the physical attributes of God. It is obvious that the physical personality of God is not something that comes within the scope of our senses. Thus, the only possibility was to introduce the physical personality of God through comparison with or reference to something that the human being was exposed to. The Qur’an has categorically refuted this possibility by stating that nothing that has existence is even remotely similar to the physical attributes of God and therefore, the physical person of God cannot even be explained through analogy or comparison. According to the Qur’an, God is الأحد— Al-Ahad — i.e. absolutely unique, while at another instance (Al-Shooraa 42: 11), it declares:

لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ ۖ
​

There is nothing that resembles Him.
​

• For the development of a sound relationship with his Creator, man does not need to be familiar with His physical characteristics. A sound relationship – one that is based on the correct appreciation of the rights and duties of man with reference to his Creator – can be fully developed even without information of His physical appearance and personality. The important thing that needs to be understood and acknowledged for the purpose of developing a sound relationship with God is a good knowledge of the qualitative attributes of God, rather than His physical attributes. It is for this reason that the Qur’an has concentrated on an attributive introduction of God.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/the-islamic-introduction-to-god/

 

[Vaagmi]

But what about your opinion on this:
Why Does the Qur’an not introduce us to the Physical Attributes of God?

• 1) Because of the limitations of human languages and comprehension explained above, man is not in a position to understand and comprehend the physical attributes of God. It is obvious that the physical personality of God is not something that comes within the scope of our senses. Thus, the only possibility was to introduce the physical personality of God through comparison with or reference to something that the human being was exposed to. The Qur’an has categorically refuted this possibility by stating that nothing that has existence is even remotely similar to the physical attributes of God and therefore, the physical person of God cannot even be explained through analogy or comparison. According to the Qur’an, God is الأحد— Al-Ahad — i.e. absolutely unique, while at another instance (Al-Shooraa 42: 11), it declares:

لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ ۖ​

There is nothing that resembles Him.
​

• 2) For the development of a sound relationship with his Creator, man does not need to be familiar with His physical characteristics. A sound relationship – one that is based on the correct appreciation of the rights and duties of man with reference to his Creator – can be fully developed even without information of His physical appearance and personality. The important thing that needs to be understood and acknowledged for the purpose of developing a sound relationship with God is a good knowledge of the qualitative attributes of God, rather than His physical attributes. It is for this reason that the Qur’an has concentrated on an attributive introduction of God.

Numbers for convenience of reference:

1) Neti, Neti, Neti.......(Not this, not this, no not this)
Yadha vacha nivartante. Aprapya manasaa sahaa. (words of languages returned back helpless after realising their inability to describe him)
purushamevethagm sarvam yadh bhootham yascha bhavyam. uthAmrutatvasyesanaha........ (He is everything here, the past, the present and the future)
I can quote any number of such passages from Vedas. So what you find in other religions is nothing different from what is there in Hinduism or Vedanta. When my ancestors decided to give a form to the God Idea/entity they just did that - gave a form. They did not want to waste their quietening the mind which looked for or rather which struggled for finding a method to objectify that entity so that they can move over to the next stage of dealing with it. You donot and can not deal with something that is nonexistent. And they did the best that they could when they zeroed in on a form. The form has to be something familiar, something close to the mind of the person, and something that can be venerated. So the anthropomorphous form was selected because that is the best that they had. They took care to include an elephant (for its size) a lion (for its power and strength), and a horse (for its beauty) also in the pantheon.
So these forms fulfilled a basic and widespread need to objectify the God entity to deal with it conveniently. None of my ancestors and none of the bhaktas today ever consider the form is the God. The Form just conveniently represents God so that I can move ahead with my life from which there is no escape for me. The form is not the the physical person of God.
The crack-pots who have understood religion the least and who are anxious to organize masses under a rallying point have a need to find holes in other religions.
And I have heard such long lectures about the idol worship from religious fanatics critical of it. They have just not understood the idol worshipping hindu at all.
God is Al-Ahad - not only for Moslems but also for Hindus. So there is nothing unique or new about this statement لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ ۖ. I can give a hundred quotes from Vedas which stress this aspect and it is a scientific fact vedas are much much older in time.

2. It is the natural curiosity which when becomes a tormenting search that it leads the search to the need to objectify the inscrutable entity in a simple representative form. It is like how we use a Lemma in a complicated Mathematical problem. First we handle a certain information in a particular way to solve certain issues and arrive at a conclusion and put it aside as a Lemma. This Lemma later comes when we solve the problem. While solving we do not have to do all those operations again. We just take Lemma and put it in place and move ahead with our problem. For a sound relationship with the creator God I want first to identify and recognize him and then only I can deal with him. Giving a form is this process of Giving an identity and the entire exercise is a Lemma. The Form is a necessity without which it will be the "glorious night" in the darkness of which all cows are black in color. Qualitative aspects of God also need a base. What is that base is the question and when mind struggles to capture that base to deal with its qualitative attributes it comes across an insurmountable barrier of emptiness. Either the mind can give up in desperation or look for alternatives.

This is not something new about Vedas or hindu religion. It has been known and said several times by people in different ways. But Abrahamic religions have been banging it into the ears of faithfuls that this is the weakness of Hinduism. It requires an Einstein or a Stephen Hawking to understand the wisdom of hindus. Very unfortunate indeed.