diluting traditions

[vijisesh]

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Amidst all these discussions about vathiyars not performing their duties to their best of capabilities , will it be meaningful to ponder on one point !

Say tomorrow someone gives up his regular job and become a vathiyar and with sincere practice and dedication performs his duties , will his family be taken care of , i mean will his sons continue their education in the hi-fi schools that they used to go , will they be able to afford luxurious homes , etc etc or should they also follow their father in depending on alms ??????????
Why does a vathiyar become greedy --- i feel to some extent to meet his demands ,rather than anything else !!
Aren't we selfish when we pay a small fee for a homam expecting him to be happy and also we confirm over 100 times , if he is happy with whatever we pay !!
Something basically wrong !! i suppose

 

[kunjuppu]

sometimes, i think, the dilution of one tradition, may give birth to a new one.

videsi hindus, most of us, i think already having thrown out the heavy weight of caste, have been looking around their brethren religion and not only adopting terms which are familiar in the english world, but now appear also hinduising certain western traditions.

i, for one, welcome it. for this particular feature, is a group effort, seldom seen in our own temples, but may be a common sight in hindu churches of nether-lands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/nyregion/28choir.html?ref=asia

thank you.

ps.. i am just waiting for some skeptic to say that this too is a dilution of one of our traditions ie 'bhajan singing corruptimus?'

 

[uksharma3]

i, for one, welcome it. for this particular feature, is a group effort, seldom seen in our own temples, ..

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/nyregion/28choir.html?ref=asia

thank you.

ps.. i am just waiting for some skeptic to say that this too is a dilution of one of our traditions ie 'bhajan singing corruptimus?'

Bhajan singing in temples is not a new thing. In older days it was done specially in temples in south villages.
The present generation of brahmins are educated in english medium and most of the time with 'araikurai thamizhum, amerika kanavum'. If one reads tamil literature written by writers like ki.va.ja and others, they will know that much what they see in foreign countries now was actually 'stolen' from India.
Anyway, at least remnants of hinduism will live on in western countries by adopting hinduism to their customs and traditions.
If one read the famous novel "Roots" one will know how the Africans became Americanized and Christianized. Let that not happen to Indians.

 

[RVR]

Sri Kunjuppu ji

If some people say that it is diluting traditions, it is their perception. Hindu way of life has gone through lot of changes over the period and no body can claim that this is the best. Gayathri mantram is imparted to us during `Brahmobadesam' hiding inside a piece of cloth. It is considered as a highly secret mantra.

According to TB tradition even ladies are not allowed to chant it. However in North India both men and women chant it openly. Infact if you go to Hindu Devotional Sanskrit wesbsites it is available for both listening and download.

There is no hard and fast rule as far as our religious practices are concerned and deviations are accepted.



Ramana Maharishi is an example. He never went through the normal route. He never obtained Sanyasa from any body. He fallowed a path by questioning himself `who am I'.
His mother joined him later in his life at Tiruvannamalai. When his mother died, after performing last rites in his own way, he said there is no `Theetu'. He took food at the so called low caste peoples houses.

Paramacharya use to send his foreign visitors to Ramana Maharishi for clearing their doubts. Probably he would have had limitations in entertaining them due to the compultions of his post `Peedathipathi'. Ramana's path is totally different from the regular path shown by our Madathipathis.

Lot of us are inspired by Ramana's teachings and follow his path which is totally different from traditional paths.

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[KRS]

'Traditions' nowadays are synoymous with following the rites ordered by Purva Mimamsa. If one reads Vivekananda Ji, one can understand how this 'tradition' has been used to manipulate and discriminate, especially in Southern India.

Tradition should be respected whenever it makes sense. In other words, whenever it has stopped being a negative force in the current times. No one today, I hope, would advocate a child betrothal at the age of five! No one today, I hope, would be an advocate for Saathi, even if the wife wants it!

Tradition can not overrule logic and today's culture. If it tries to do so, it is fit for the dustpin of humanity.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
KRS

 

[GopalaswamyShridharan]

Child Marriage,Sati..etc which we as a society have discarded such practices like Mormons who practiced Polygamy,slavery of negroes,Nazi killing of Jews..etc.

Every society evolves by exchange of ideas from various cultures by interaction.

Some brahminical traditions,like getting up early in the morning ie brahma muhurtham.Doing Sandhya Vandanam at least three times a day.Doing murthy puja early in the moring.Offering prasadam to dieties.Earning for the upkeep of the family.Lead by example.Have a kutumbha guru.These are still continued in many tamiizh brahmana households today too.

Thank you!.

gopal.

 

[KRS]

Yes, Sri Gopal Ji. You are correct. All the things you outline below as some TB families/individuals follow are within the right of any TB family/individuals to pursue and observe to enhance their piety and way of life.

These do not affect the lives of anyone else. So these are good traditions to follow and keep.

Regards,
KRS

Child Marriage,Sati..etc which we as a society have discarded such practices like Mormons who practiced Polygamy,slavery of negroes,Nazi killing of Jews..etc.

Every society evolves by exchange of ideas from various cultures by interaction.

Some brahminical traditions,like getting up early in the morning ie brahma muhurtham.Doing Sandhya Vandanam at least three times a day.Doing murthy puja early in the moring.Offering prasadam to dieties.Earning for the upkeep of the family.Lead by example.Have a kutumbha guru.These are still continued in many tamiizh brahmana households today too.

Thank you!.

gopal.

 

[RVR]

Our traditions may be split in to two aspects.

One is Principles, which have to be followed and probably should be strengthened and improved further. There should not be any compromise as far as principles are concerned.

At the same, the practices has to undergo changes on a continuous basis.The same practice which our forefathers were doing may not hold good today. There are so many factors affecting our practices (may be time, place and circumstances) and we have to be highly flexible to adopt to the change of practices.

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[k kuppusamy]

Perhaps it may not be appropriate to call the Dakshinas as alms. Dakshina is a payment for services rendered with the caveat that unlike other payments this is supposed to be given with respect. This would certainly be done if the vadhyar performs his duties sincerely. I know of quite a few vadhyars who command such respect and perhaps as a fall out of that do get enough to maintain a good life style educatring their children to thr capabilities.

 

[uksharma3]

Our traditions may be split in to two aspects.

One is Principles, which have to be followed and probably should be strengthened and improved further. There should not be any compromise as far as principles are concerned.

I agree with your statements about principles and practice. I think one principle is that the brahmins should adhere simplicity in whatever they do. Unfortunately this principle is now getting forgotten. It is sad to see that some brahmins copy others in their dressing, housing etc. The principle of dressing is to protect the body from elements and the house is to dwell. But some brahmins now go for luxurious clothing and build houses with extravagance. There is nothing wrong in a brahmin engaging in whatever lawful profession and earn money. But he/she must live a simple life and the extra money should go to develop spiritual institutions or to marry girls and boys from less fortunate families.

 

[suvarchas]

Our traditions may be split in to two aspects.

One is Principles, which have to be followed and probably should be strengthened and improved further. There should not be any compromise as far as principles are concerned.

At the same, the practices has to undergo changes on a continuous basis.The same practice which our forefathers were doing may not hold good today. There are so many factors affecting our practices (may be time, place and circumstances) and we have to be highly flexible to adopt to the change of practices.

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

While all of us may be clamouring for change in practices to suit our life styles,we also need to bear in mind the dictum and sayings of Mahaperiyava who mentioned as follows in 1932 in his Chennai discourses.

"People who feel that the shastras need to be changed approach me and state that you are like a Rishi who gave the shastras and hence you should alter the same and remove practices which are not relevant to the times.People have been educated in modern way and they extol me as Rishi and so on and imply that they cannot change and therefore I should change.Iam a representative of Shastras to uphold it and I do not have authority to change.If I change something as weeding out,some other Acharya may weed somemore and at the end we may not know which is the crop and which is the weed.What we need to do is to change our life style for shastras and not change shastras for life style.After all the dharma is sanatana which cannot be changed according to one's perceptions"

 

[chims]

Our traditions may be split in to two aspects.

One is Principles, which have to be followed and probably should be strengthened and improved further. There should not be any compromise as far as principles are concerned.

At the same, the practices has to undergo changes on a continuous basis.The same practice which our forefathers were doing may not hold good today. There are so many factors affecting our practices (may be time, place and circumstances) and we have to be highly flexible to adopt to the change of practices.

There are 2 divisions in the practise: 1. As a brahmin giving due importance to the daily routine, early get up! taking bath before starting day's work,doing pooja to the deity, visiting temple and acharyas and upholding the valued entertainment like music dance and other traditional arts

The other practise pertaining to the way general functions are celebrated, 1 based on iyer, iyengar, rao, 2. area tanjore, tirunel veli, kancheepuram, northarct etc.

with this add the new moderations for the place, (usa, german,australia) and convenience to suit the place.

 

[RVR]

While all of us may be clamouring for change in practices to suit our life styles,we also need to bear in mind the dictum and sayings of Mahaperiyava who mentioned as follows in 1932 in his Chennai discourses.

"People who feel that the shastras need to be changed approach me and state that you are like a Rishi who gave the shastras and hence you should alter the same and remove practices which are not relevant to the times.People have been educated in modern way and they extol me as Rishi and so on and imply that they cannot change and therefore I should change.Iam a representative of Shastras to uphold it and I do not have authority to change.If I change something as weeding out,some other Acharya may weed somemore and at the end we may not know which is the crop and which is the weed.What we need to do is to change our life style for shastras and not change shastras for life style.After all the dharma is sanatana which cannot be changed according to one's perceptions"

If we recollect Mahabharatha, Lord Krishna supported Pandavas on a matter of principle to support & uphold Dharma, stood by them throughout the war till the end. Infact practically he conducted the whole war eventhough he didn't touch any weapon.

Same Lord Krishna has to adopt all sorts practices which are not in books to get rid of Bhishma, Drona and Karna. All the three are great warriors and could not be eliminated easily but for the approapriate practices adopted by the Lord Krishna. Even Lord himself has to compromise when it comes to practice.

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[suvarchas]

If we recollect Mahabharatha, Lord Krishna supported Pandavas on a matter of principle to support & uphold Dharma, stood by them throughout the war till the end. Infact practically he conducted the whole war eventhough he didn't touch any weapon.

Same Lord Krishna has to adopt all sorts practices which are not in books to get rid of Bhishma, Drona and Karna. All the three are great warriors and could not be eliminated easily but for the approapriate practices adopted by the Lord Krishna. Even Lord himself has to compromise when it comes to practice.

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

Perfect.But again many Neethi shastras have categorically declared that for serving a greater cause some Dharmas can be compromised with.But when it comes to basic Dharma for individulas the same rule cannot be applied.Mahabharatha yuddha was fought not just for the establishing the rights of Pandavas,but for establishing righteousness.It also involved so many kingdoms and rulers.So the analogy may not be right if an individual's dharma is compromised there would be no end to it.
My intention in quoting Mahaperiyava is that often his name is dropped to deride his successsors,whereas we drop him like hot potato when it does not suit us to follow his dictums.Secondly when we can decide on what we need to follow and to change how come the same liberty is not available to H.H.Jayendra who is also entiltled to decide what can be followed and what cannot be in the present circumstances

 

[RVR]

I don't want to compare Paramacharya with others. I am inspired by Paramacharya and I am unable to explain why I am inspired only by him. I am unable to get the same inspiration from anybody else on this earth living today.

I earnestly attempt to follow Paramacharya's teachings. However if somebody asks me whether you strictly follow all his teachings, I have to say `No'. When I say no, it is an honest answer. It doesn't mean that I am dropping my Guru conveniently.

I have not seen Ramana Maharishi but I am inspired by his teachings. Whenever I am unable to follow Paramacharya's teaching, I atleast try to follow Ramana Maharishi's teachings which I feel much easier.

Saint Thyagayya has composed a song starting with `Endaro Mahanu Bavulu". The country has produced several great people. Let me try to get inspiration from all such great people.

Sridhara Ayyaval of Tiruvisanallur served the food meant for Shrarda to a dalit and deviated from the normal practice. Eventhough I get lot of inspiration from him, I am not following the same practice.



எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[GopalaswamyShridharan]

re

Perfect.But again many Neethi shastras have categorically declared that for serving a greater cause some Dharmas can be compromised with.But when it comes to basic Dharma for individulas the same rule cannot be applied.Mahabharatha yuddha was fought not just for the establishing the rights of Pandavas,but for establishing righteousness.It also involved so many kingdoms and rulers.So the analogy may not be right if an individual's dharma is compromised there would be no end to it.
My intention in quoting Mahaperiyava is that often his name is dropped to deride his successsors,whereas we drop him like hot potato when it does not suit us to follow his dictums.Secondly when we can decide on what we need to follow and to change how come the same liberty is not available to H.H.Jayendra who is also entiltled to decide what can be followed and what cannot be in the present circumstances

Shree Suvarchas,

Thank you at the outset for clearly elucidating,which i was unable to express,so poignantly by you sir.

Guru Jayendrar and Guru Vijayaendrar,are for us modern TB's sir.I am restricting myself to TB's only,even though by authority both of them are in the leagues of gurus of advaithic traditions.Which includes one and all in the global world.

Thank you!.

gopal.

 

[vijisesh]

Dear uksharma ji,

Your following quote reflects idealistic principles but it will be difficult to implement in modern day living !
Simple and Modest way of Living , a doctrine prescribed for Brahmins , if practiced is the first step taken to get out of the materialistic world , by itself .

Now enjoying worldly pleasures , some may come of age and say, when they reach their forties , try and live a simple life !
But in a co-existing brotherhood , their Children will be isolated if they do not speak the same language of their friends .. what I mean is when you have the money and you are in a hi-fi community , you have but no choice but to equip yourselves with all the luxuries and gadgets or else you fear to be treated as a miser (kanjus ) ...that it the sad truth !

of course , your point to contribute portion of the income to charity and spiritual institutions is the best one can d to humanity !

I agree with your statements about principles and practice. I think one principle is that the brahmins should adhere simplicity in whatever they do. Unfortunately this principle is now getting forgotten. It is sad to see that some brahmins copy others in their dressing, housing etc. The principle of dressing is to protect the body from elements and the house is to dwell. But some brahmins now go for luxurious clothing and build houses with extravagance. There is nothing wrong in a brahmin engaging in whatever lawful profession and earn money. But he/she must live a simple life and the extra money should go to develop spiritual institutions or to marry girls and boys from less fortunate families.

 

[KRS]

Dear uksharma3 Ji,

A 'simple' life can be pursued while one is living in a mansion amongst luxuries. A life yearning for money and luxuries can be led by someone while living a seemingly 'simple' life.

If one lives with true detachment, which I define as the foremost 'brahminic' quality, then all the worldly matrial stuff would not influence one.

Regards,
KRS

 

[suvarchas]

I don't want to compare Paramacharya with others. I am inspired by Paramacharya and I am unable to explain why I am inspired only by him. I am unable to get the same inspiration from anybody else on this earth living today.

I earnestly attempt to follow Paramacharya's teachings. However if somebody asks me whether you strictly follow all his teachings, I have to say `No'. When I say no, it is an honest answer. It doesn't mean that I am dropping my Guru conveniently.

I have not seen Ramana Maharishi but I am inspired by his teachings. Whenever I am unable to follow Paramacharya's teaching, I atleast try to follow Ramana Maharishi's teachings which I feel much easier.

Saint Thyagayya has composed a song starting with `Endaro Mahanu Bavulu". The country has produced several great people. Let me try to get inspiration from all such great people.

Sridhara Ayyaval of Tiruvisanallur served the food meant for Shrarda to a dalit and deviated from the normal practice. Eventhough I get lot of inspiration from him, I am not following the same practice.



எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

Dear Sir,
While I appreciate your being an earnest seeker,I would like to correct the impression about Sridhara Ayyaval.While the great Ayyaval was compassionate about the panchama which overruled his adherence to the shastra,he again offered to make amends and offer shraddha with fresh food which was declined by the Brahmins under a wrong impression.Here the point to be noted is Ayyaval never was for scrapping it or amending the rule.Since offering food to a hungry one is a greater dharma he exercised his discretion in using the food prepared for Shraddha,but he did not dtere from offering Shraddha or for doing prayaschitta at which point Ganga emerged out of his well.But again if we have such steadfastedness or devotion of Ayyaval we can exercise such discretion as only in a such a pure selfless heart,the impulse would be driven more out of divine providence and not by sheer brain

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Venkataramani Ji,

In my case it is the quite opposite. Maha Periaval has visted my home when I was very young, probably about ten years old. I remember that event even today and it was not a fortunate occassion. God has ordained that I should see him as a stern person and somehow I became afraid of Him.

I never thought about Him all these years since I settled down in the U.S. some forty years ago. But by some strange coincidence, in the course of defending the Periaval on the net, I rediscovered Maha Pariaval, including the most fortunate meeting of a foreigner who was his desciple. In fact, he is in the process of writing about his experinces with Him, which is fantastic.

And in the mean time, I also came under the grace of the Bhagawan, in a very fantastic and weird circumstance! I also found out that my deceased father considered him as his Guru, which I did not know till recently!

Life is full of surprises and coicidences, when you consider, is neither, but only well designed with full of meaning.

Regards,
KRS

I don't want to compare Paramacharya with others. I am inspired by Paramacharya and I am unable to explain why I am inspired only by him. I am unable to get the same inspiration from anybody else on this earth living today.

I earnestly attempt to follow Paramacharya's teachings. However if somebody asks me whether you strictly follow all his teachings, I have to say `No'. When I say no, it is an honest answer. It doesn't mean that I am dropping my Guru conveniently.

I have not seen Ramana Maharishi but I am inspired by his teachings. Whenever I am unable to follow Paramacharya's teaching, I atleast try to follow Ramana Maharishi's teachings which I feel much easier.

Saint Thyagayya has composed a song starting with `Endaro Mahanu Bavulu". The country has produced several great people. Let me try to get inspiration from all such great people.

Sridhara Ayyaval of Tiruvisanallur served the food meant for Shrarda to a dalit and deviated from the normal practice. Eventhough I get lot of inspiration from him, I am not following the same practice.



எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[RVR]

I rediscovered Maha Pariaval, including the most fortunate meeting of a foreigner who was his desciple. In fact, he is in the process of writing about his experinces with Him, which is fantastic.

Dear Sri KRS ji,

Please inform me when the book is published so that I would like to read the same.

Thanks and regards,

R.Venkataramani

 

[[email protected]]

To All: Hollo: after aweeks time today BSNL BB service started with serious complaineds. To Rv sir Thank you for Quoteing Sridhara Aiyyaval,he very great TB in the 20th century. His songs will teach how to live in this world and GOD realization.Every TB should read his poems and his teachings. s.r.k.

 

[[email protected]]

To Rv sir, At last taking a long route and came back to the origanal place that is Whom I am? what Ramana Maharesi said, Yes silent way and go inside ask this question and you will get the answer. That is THATHVAMASI. Nee athu va nai. What exactly santmant teaches. Just read Ramanars UPADeSA UNTHIYAR ( originaly teached by Lord Shiva) . s.r.k

 

[RVR]

Recently I came across a Brahmin Marriage where boy's father and girl's father are brothers. I am sure it is not acceptable according to our traditions. When same gothram itself is not acceptable, how this can be permitted. How the Vadhyar can perform the function?

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[GopalaswamyShridharan]

re

Recently I came across a Brahmin Marriage where boy's father and girl's father are brothers. I am sure it is not acceptable according to our traditions. When same gothram itself is not acceptable, how this can be permitted. How the Vadhyar can perform the function?

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

ஸ்ரீ ஆர்வீ ,ஒரு தாய் ,ஆனால் இரண்டு தகப்பனார் ,பாதி சகோதரர்கள் ,நன்றி

shri rv,

half brother and half sister is the relationship.Mainly becuse of y-chromosomes and x-chromosomes from different men,but same mother.Thank you!;

gopal.