Are vadamas Telugus? What nonsense is this? Vadamas speak Tamil with not even one word of Telugu!In the varNa system all knowledge providers to society are brahmins. Every scientist, researcher, technologist, teacher are all brahmins only.
In the jAti system, those who do veda raksanam are brahmana jAti. The sole aim and purpose of brahmana jAti was veda raksanam. Veda raksanam is reading, reciting all vedic scriptures by memory, transmission to next generation and along with it provide mental work to society for society's progress. It's like they do 90% veda raksanam, but since society takes care of them provide knowledge services to society for 10% of their time.
Even in the pre-sangam era, ancient tamil kings had fascination for vedic culture, its knowledge and customs and hence brought in these brahmins from all over, settling them locally in different regions of the land.
Chozhiyars (brought in by the very ancient cholas as they were the ones in touch with North due to their kingdom proximity) came in probably in the pre-sangam era and interbred with local population and were called the 'anthanars' or 'vediyars'. Their influence spread across all 3 tamil kingdoms of chera, chola, pandiyas.
But with kalabhra's invasion, for several centuries, they lost the support of kings and were marginalized or annihilated. Buddhism and jainism were the favorite dharma for the kings.
With the bhakti movement of Nayanmars, Alwars, vedic culture got back its feet in the south and Sankara took it to North also. Vedic culture started influencing the kings again.
When the cholas came back winning over kalabhras, they brought in the brhatcharanams, the 'large-footed' brahmins from the North and settled in their kingdom, to help them with warfare knowledge of the North, primarily. Warfare knowledge involved weapons, army formations, astronomy, astrology, reading natural signs etc.
Much later on a set of brahmins from the North were settled for music during the Pandya times and they were called vaathimas.
Much later on during the later cholas period (who were essentially the chalukyas as rajendra chola adopted paternal grandson) , telugu brahmins from tungabhadra were settled all over chola empire to guide on agricultural practices. They were the vadamas.
Similarly all Southern kings, be it chalukyas, hoysalas, rashtrakutas, all of them settled brahmins from North in their kingdoms (like the chola, chera, pandyas).
Wherever these southern brahmins went they had some service to society, but their core aim and purpose in life was veda raksanam.
When the Islamic kings came in, the first to reach out to them for patronage were the Southern Brahmins Madhvacharya went to Jalaludin khilji and proclaimed allah and vishnu are same (as in the Madhva vijayam).
Because southern brahmins primary aim and purpose is veda raksanam, they simply allied with whoever was ruling, got their support and propagated vedic scriptures to their descendants.
It was easy to do veda raksanam with big aristocracies than to do with small kings and hence they favored such big aristocracies.
Veda raksanam is a non-productive work for the society and needed society's support. Brahmins used temples for survival. They minimized their living needs by unjaviruthi. Thus they minimized their support for society and provide more energy for veda raksanam, which was a huge task by itself.
But as Indian kingdoms splintered, a lot of southern brahmins moved away from veda raksanam for life sustenance. With big aristocracies, if 20% of brahmins spent on other services to society and 80% were in veda raksanam, this inverted with splintered kingdoms. Now 20% were only in veda raksanam.
When Dutch, Portugese or the British came, the first ones to ally with them were Southern Brahmins. They had no qualms in absorbing or digesting some elements of their beliefs and practices, as long as they were able to dedicate some part of their community energy for veda raksanam. But by this time, the percentage of southern brahmins doing veda raksanam had significantly declined to say 10%.
The primary reason for southern brahmins not to cross the ocean was that they will fail to do veda raksanam in foreign lands, But since foreign forces, thoughts and knowledge took over our society by storm, it's like they crossed the ocean, even while residing in their own land. With industrial, technological revolution and more integration of the world, the percentage of southern brahmins involved in veda raksanam has fallen down to low single digits now.
Ofcourse significant number of southern brahmins are still knowledge providers or follow the varNa. Except very few, all the southern brahmins do not belong the brahmana jAti as we don't do veda raksanam.
Even most vaathiyaars (many of them have not attended full-fledged veda patasalas) today don't do veda raksanam, as their primary aim to survive by their laugiga prayogams. Even there due to paucity of time, vaathiyaars and knowledge, many samskaras have reduced to an abridge version, a namesake formality.
So the brahmin community has been in cross-roads for last few centuries. Will veda raksanam eventually move out from human memory transmission to machine recorders..? Will even the laugiga prayogams come down and down and eventually lose it all completely..?
Southern brahmins (and all brahmins in general) had a flair for knowledge because they were reading, reciting and researching (mental work). This is the genetic, social environmental advantage they passed on. With all communities reading, reciting, researching, this differentiation no longer exists. So there's no long term genetic differentiation as proclaimed.
So what does this southern brahmin jAti has with it, to differentiate itself or stand separately, say in 50 or 100 years from now..?
Nothing.
In fact it's time now that the brahmin jAti expands by bringing in all kinds of people into their fold for veda raksanam, by bringing in people of all castes into veda patasalas at an early age, by devising great financial support for veda raksanam.
Without veda raksanam, there is no brahmin jAti.
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DISINTEGRATION OF IYER COMMUNITY
- Thread starter CHANDRU1849
- Start date
Are vadamas Telugus? What nonsense is this? Vadamas speak Tamil with not even one word of Telugu!
Kalabraas are myth. Other than that your reply is perfect.
Disintegration in Iyer community have begun long long ago and hardly there are few iyers left over to take forward their rites and ceremonies. It's really sad that while other non brahmins are following strictly their customs and practices, it is brahmin community that has deviated from their cultures and traditions. Especially when their daughters marry persons from other caste, community and religion.
A more serious issue is that our boys and girls are now marrying from other communities. This is happening quite rapidly. The children born to such mixed couples cannot perform brahmin rituals. Thus, as one of my cousins commented, "brahmins will become extinct in a few years."
renuka
Well-known member
Isnt becoming extinct the final journey of getting out of the cycle of life and death and attaining moksha?
sravna
Well-known member
There is always some similarity between the most stupid and most intelligent, most material and most spiritual though they are in essence opposite
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Why does it matter if a brahmin boy or girl marries a NB? The question is not whether their children will not be considered as TBs but rather whether these girls and boys or members of their families would be considered as TBs.
Being a brahmin is not solely genes but the guna that dominates you. For the sattvika guna to dominate, one performs various tasks such as waking up early, mantra japam, et cetera. In essence, being a brahmin is primarily the adherence to these customs, which whether we would like to admit it or not has been dismantled (for various reasons).
All of this is to ask whether you believe that majority of brahmins (let go of those that marry outside for this question) act as brahmins? To quote cho ramaswamy, enge brahmanan?
confused16
Member
Very profound statement, mama
confused16
Member
I guess the argument comes down to this
1. In this age when :
1.1 Brahmins and the decsendents of dosciplined brahmins have left their practices
1.2 There are societal forces who let us say, have a distaste for brahmins and their practices, and they would sleep better not see us out in the open observing our anushtaanams and aacharams (there is often the tone/subtext of "are you proclaiming to be better than me by doing all these things dofferently compared to me")
Can we say that -
A. A B who marries a NB is less likely than any other B to continue his practices, due to the possibility of influence from the spouse and in-laws (of course, exceptions do exist, like my own chitthapa who married a NB vedanta and sanskrit researcher/teacher- my cousin did get upanayanam done at the correct age)
I feel at this point, we do not have the liberty of being the perfectionists, to say (even if just for the sake of discussion) "As all brahmins don't qualify to be brahmins, therefore let us let brahmins go out of the fold, even if it means our population percentage decreases".
This is very much possible, this boils down to the beliefs one has. For instance I have seen "full fledged brahmins" not do their son's upanayanam for the current generation of TB (for varying reasons), yet many "half" TB's have not only done their upanayanam but also do their sandhyavandanam and tharpanam for those who qualify. Of course we do have people who do this for show within our community as well.
What good do these so called "brahmins" do for the TB society by being included in the fold? Should we not restrict ourselves to those of us who follow our culture and way of life? What good is the brahmna / brahmnathi title if your behaviour is not in accordance to the culture?
This boils down to what each of us describe brahmins as, and as with most things there may be variations within this.
Furthermore, have we gained anything when we were more in number? The answer is no, and it is in our nature for the most part to behave that way. I do see a more aggressive side within the current generation, however, it may be from a nationalistic pov and not communal. Let's see how we fare on that end.
Some additional comments:
We should not be overly concerned with the disintegration of caste groups. Every cultural community has something unique to contribute, but culture by its nature evolves over time. For instance, temple worship did not exist during the Vedic period.
Our habits and traditions continuously change. Certain practices withstand the test of time only when they align with natural order and universal principles. Those rooted in truth are guided by authentic scriptures such as the Vedas (Sruti, which is eternal, as opposed to Smriti, which can be misinterpreted, distorted, or lose significance over time). Some Puranas also carry profound messages and rituals that align with these core teachings.
Many of today's practices, which are rooted in superstition and unreasonable beliefs, will inevitably fade away. This is simply the natural course of things. Over time, numerous foreign ideas have also been infused into our cultural fabric, often borrowed from Abrahamic faiths. For instance, the Upanishads describe God as Antaryami, the inner controller. In contrast, the idea of God ruling from heaven originates from Abrahamic traditions, where divinity is perceived as an extracosmic entity. This belief naturally necessitates the concept of messengers, such as an avatar, to bridge the gap. These borrowed concepts have since become mainstream.
In the present context, I find little personal meaning in the term "Iyer," aside from representing certain beliefs and cultural practices as passed down by my parents. It raises the question: how can anyone be born with a caste identity? Personally, I am told I am a Vadama, but what does that mean? Perhaps it refers to those who hailed from the north or were Sanskrit scholars. I am aware of four classifications within Tamil Brahmin communities—Vadama, Vatthima, Brahacharnam, and Ashta Sastram. While each of these subsects likely has a glorious origin, their members do not always get along, and they often view Iyangars as entirely separate. Such divisions and misunderstandings lead us further away from truth and, therefore, are destined to fade over time.
The gradual disappearance of the so-called Iyer community is not unusual. Eventually, all caste-based communities may dissolve. The Tamil Brahmin community, like many other Hindu groups, is disintegrating for several key reasons:
1. Superstition dominates as a way of life, coupled with unfounded pride in traditions.
2. There is a reluctance to exercise "Viveka" (discernment) to seek the truth. Such a statement is seen as an alien uttering. Adopting Adi Shankaracharya's phrase, many appear to be "jnana-shatravah" (enemies of real learning). For example, rituals like Gita Homam—where a verse from the Gita is recited and offered in a sacrificial fire—are invented practices without basis in traditional scripture. Even pointing out that such rituals contradict the very essence of the Gita often sparks outrage. This kind of anti-learning is seen in every walk of life including in this forum itself.
3.A low birth rate within the community is insufficient to sustain its population.
4.Younger generations are increasingly disengaged from these traditions, with inter-caste and inter-religious marriages on the rise.
5. Prominent spiritual leaders (Gurus) are often divisive, and Matams (monastic institutions) fail to cooperate with each other.
Rather than worrying about the disintegration of communities, it is far better to focus on learning to live as compassionate human beings. Such an approach offers a profound sense of freedom and purpose.
sravna
Well-known member
wrong thread again. Really sorry!
I agree with your view to a great degree, however I do find a dissonance between us at this point:
Moreover, who would the kshathriya and vaishya communities want to lose the monopoly they exercise?
I believe that caste will morph into something else but I doubt that it can be erased, even if the patriarchy is overturned and a new matriarchy is established there is no reason for people to wantonly shed these identities as we progress. A great example of this would be keerthy suresh (the actor) who got married as per traditional iyengar practices though she is an iyengar from her mother's side and a nair from her father's side- there is an inherent need to identify with what may be viewed as a "higher" caste (though this is based on many inconsistencies). I am not refuting that she felt close to her iyengar roots or that she should not do so, but rather just a statement on caste based identities.
I do not think that there is even a shred of doubt that caste will survive, after all, caste is the classification based on birth which is often mixed with the varnashrama which causes people across the different groups and sub-groups to feel important. For example, there was an instance in Maaharashtra where a couple from OBC or SC wanted to get married but the parents forbid it because one of them belonged to a "higher" caste.
Moreover, who would the kshathriya and vaishya communities want to lose the monopoly they exercise?
I believe that caste will morph into something else but I doubt that it can be erased, even if the patriarchy is overturned and a new matriarchy is established there is no reason for people to wantonly shed these identities as we progress. A great example of this would be keerthy suresh (the actor) who got married as per traditional iyengar practices though she is an iyengar from her mother's side and a nair from her father's side- there is an inherent need to identify with what may be viewed as a "higher" caste (though this is based on many inconsistencies). I am not refuting that she felt close to her iyengar roots or that she should not do so, but rather just a statement on caste based identities.
renuka
Well-known member
The concept of God high up in space/sky/transcedent space isnt borrowed from Abrahamic faiths.
Nasadiya Sukta of The Rigveda mentions about an Overseer in the highest sky/space/transcedent realm.
yó asyā́dhyakṣaḥ paramé vyómant
Translation :-
He who is its overseer in the highest sky/space/ transcedent realm.
Nasadiya Sukta of The Rigveda mentions about an Overseer in the highest sky/space/transcedent realm.
yó asyā́dhyakṣaḥ paramé vyómant
Translation :-
He who is its overseer in the highest sky/space/ transcedent realm.
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