DNA basis and genetic identity of Brahmins and Tamil brahmins

[Chintana]

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Sri Desi,

I missed seeing this one. This comment was entirely improper on your part. Such kind of behavior boils down to disrespecting other posters. I want to believe in the goodness of people. So I believe you will change and not post these kinds of hurtful remarks to anyone in this forum. I hope you will not put me in a position where I have take a firmer action on this.


Best Regards,
Chintana

In cricket the umpire's word is final. Anyone who does not recognize this is not fit to play.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Fehu Ji,

If you have not already 'Quit', 'Quit', I urge you to reconsider. I can not access your private mail (looks like you have not enabled the flag in your profile about receiving private messages), so I am unable to respond to your private mail.

Please readjust the flag so that I can send my response to you. Thanks.

Pranams,
KRS

Sorry
I quit the forum voluntarily not out of disrespect but out of the intolerant attitude and bounded rationality of the forum administrators.Tamil brahmins will continue to suffer under your wrongful conduct of the discussions.People like Ramaa and malgova who are frivolous in the remarks can continue to harm the causes with thoughtless discussions.
The Administrator wants more respect than that he/she deserves by the depth of her postings.

Dr.Johnson's remarks I repeat again" You prove to be a wit among the lords rather than a lord among the wits"
This forum is fit for some mamis and mamas who have no work.They say "Thinnai" arrratai is good. That is why Late Mr.V.R,Nedunzehiyan of the Dravidian parties, time again mocked at the Thanjvur Brahmins "thinnai arratai" in all his meetings. Although I am for the secular cause discussed by MR.Nachi and Mr.KRS,the administrator thinks that she can tread on everybody without understanding the views expressed in the forum.



Fehu

 

[Desi]

Dear Sow.Chintana,

Sorry. I stand corrected.

Regards,
Desi

 

[Chintana]

Thank you.

I hope you continue to have many productive moments with us.

Best,
Chintana

Dear Sow.Chintana,

Sorry. I stand corrected.

Regards,
Desi

 

[vivekanand]

genetic research

Hi

I haver registered recently in tamil brahimin website, there are few thinghs which iam not sure can be gathered at this point of time. The important thinghs there are some many people doing research on genetic migration and are trying to find out where people came from, national geographic is trying to collect data all around the world and solve the myths of where we came from, In fact there is person in madurai who is doing research in this and they need data to validate about family tree and genetic origins. Unless lot of brahmins of varoius sects and gotras give their data we can state categorically how thinghs have happened. In fact i have been doing part time research in this. Anybody willing to coperate and can give data.

Ciao
Vivekanand

Dear Fehu sir,

Sorry for throwing a damper.

These views of those so called researchers reveal that they are a bunch of misinformed leftist intellectuals regurgitating their white men's feed to which they are used to and posing to read tea leaves with their perverted intellects.

I am just calling a spade a spade.

Why is it so important that we have to ditch our own Vedic understanding and go for blatantly stupid and idiotic racial profilers' barf?

Fehu sir, once again I am not finding fault with you.

Regards,

 

[happyhindu]

Vivekanand,

Could you please clarify who is this person from Madurai who is doing something like a family tree at this point of time ? Are you referring to R Pitchappan? Where do you want data to be given? Are you registered with any university or research group? Kindly clarify with details.

 

[happyhindu]

omigod this thread is funny :laugh: so there have been all sorts of crackpots on this website...:lol:

Just in case this is misunderstood:
Was referring only to Fehu's crazy posts. I saw only one being banned. So there was an other one that was banned as well. But after reading thru the thread, now am getting a bit awkward...i better stop spouting anything on these gene thingies lest anyone thinks anything crazy abt me...:hail: :yield:

 

[vivekanand]

Genetic Identity

Happyhindu
Iam not sure who is this haapyhindu person, anyway yes it is Dr Pitchappan, In fact they want to have lot more data to verify about how the caste system orginated and what relations do we have with respect to caste system. In fact the more data they get the more they can verify the difference and similarities among various caste group. And ofcourse everbody in their own caste group should be happy with their lineage, that does mean somebody is superior or inferior. Regarding registration with any university iam not iam just doing to this side research on knowing origins of humans and i had read couple of books, magazines and watched national geography for this programe. The whole point is if people are interested in giving their data points then we can all set up a meeting and give data to Dr Pitchappan, ofcourse we hve to ask lot more details on confidentiallity since it involves genetic data. These thinghs can solve issues about our identity and give us our lineage. Waiting for the reply.
Thanks
vivek

Could you please clarify who is this person from Madurai who is doing something like a family tree at this point of time ? Are you referring to R Pitchappan? Where do you want data to be given? Are you registered with any university or research group? Kindly clarify with details.[/quote]

 

[s007bala]

Genes are physical evidence of human anatomy.But we are spirit souls or jivatmas.The consciousness transfers to a jiva,using man & woman as an instrument.This conscoiusness is brahaman.The original DNA & genetic identity of brahmins as well as for tamil brahmins.

sb

 

[vivekanand]

Genetic identity

Hi Bala

It is absolutely true, but i didn't get few of your points, first of all if you look at advaita philoosphy it talks about consciousness, it does not discuss about genetics, here iam trying to focus on the origins of brahmins which has lot of research since there is less amount of data which has been collected, unless people gather about 10,000 data points based on different groups can conclusions be made whether we are closley related and to whom we are genetically related. Only statistics can reveal more information.

Also regarding brahman which is totally different from brahmin, brahmin is somethingh based on a caste classification wherease brahman which is the ultimate reality is based on conciousness which everbody can attain. In fact lot of yogis attain brahman which has been preserved in advaiatam philosphy.

Ciao
Vivek

 

[s007bala]

Hello Vivek

Jathi Brahmin is only 3000 years old.It started from North West Pakistan as its known.But percolated to Bharatham.The present day Pakistanis are the original caste creators.Now wholesale they changed to Islam,with sunni & shia caste as main with others like wahhabis,ahmedias....etc

sb

 

[vivekanand]

Re : genetic identity

Hi Bala

If you are saying the present day pakistanis are the orginal caste creators which was also part of the indian subcontinent (as per the archaic term), then in some sense do u think we are more genetically related to pakistanis if caste sytsem came from there. And if so the so called aryan concept came from there. could you please clarify on this. I guess sunni and shia are more related to iraqis and not pakistanis if iam right.

Ciao
vivek

 

[s007bala]

re

Hi Bala

If you are saying the present day pakistanis are the orginal caste creators which was also part of the indian subcontinent (as per the archaic term), then in some sense do u think we are more genetically related to pakistanis if caste sytsem came from there. And if so the so called aryan concept came from there. could you please clarify on this. I guess sunni and shia are more related to iraqis and not pakistanis if iam right.

Ciao
vivek

Hello Vivek

The Indian sub-continent was a vast tract of land mass,which extended way beyonf present day egypt,russian territories,chinese territories,far east,norther american and souther american,australia was part of us untill it got sepearted...etc.So in a way,there will be many permutation and combinations of genes owing to various inter-mingling factors.The data is from present living human beings,and collated to understand the affinity.Its a scientific guess based on assumptions and presumptions.Even my explanation is question worthy,as to how i arrive at such statements?

Ultimately,does it help in our present time,to express this way?I dunno.Its my fond hope it will help,to say,present pakistanis are really close to indians.It is but natural.That Pakistanis do not want to have any close affinity with us,is a world reknowned fact and will make every attempt to distort things,so that they are close to arabs and arabic origin!!

sb

 

[happyhindu]

The whole point is if people are interested in giving their data points then we can all set up a meeting and give data to Dr Pitchappan, ofcourse we hve to ask lot more details on confidentiallity since it involves genetic data. These thinghs can solve issues about our identity and give us our lineage.

Vivekanand,

Prof Pitchappan heads the indian Nat Geno. In case people are interested, they can give their sample to Family Tree DNA: http://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx and then pay a wee bit to link to National Genographic (therefore am not sure if you are saying ppl need to give data directly to Prof Pitchappan by coming together first or something (?)).

There are very many projects there: http://www.familytreedna.com/projects.aspx (just see the numbers in brackets). Only indians are not active or the least active; and if am not wrong there is only one project for people of Kerala ancestry - contrast this with the numbers registered for Jewish ancestry (800 ppl since Sep 2000). Btw by many accounts there appears to be no single root for brahmins and quite a few things are region-specific -or atleast for now part of the understanding is like that. Brahmins of a given region, like say tamilnadu, can easily come together to form a project there to understand better abt their origins. Here is one for India (overall) project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx - this one could well bring out possible matches with other indian folk cutting across caste/tribe stuff.

There are many companies you can test with. Oxford Ancestors and Relative Genetics are fairly popular. You can also search for matches from places such as www.mitosearch.org. Another interesting company doing autosomal Dna is dnatribes.com. Just look at the sample sizes of each caste / tribe in brackets here: http://www.dnatribes.com/pops-india.html Then there are companies that will do the ancestry as well as let you know what diseases you are genetically predisposed to like www.decodeme.com

Regards.

 

[s007bala]

H H

Is there anyway one can donate genes as we donate blood thru Red Cross?If yes,how to do it?

sb

 

[happyhindu]

Here is a nice walk thru: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/labs/extraction/

 

[happyhindu]

Genes are physical evidence of human anatomy.But we are spirit souls or jivatmas.The consciousness transfers to a jiva,using man & woman as an instrument.This conscoiusness is brahaman.The original DNA & genetic identity of brahmins as well as for tamil brahmins.

??

Again Bala, its tuf 2 understand what you are saying.

If you are saying things about consciousness as brahman, please keep that seperate.

If you are saying consciousness as brahman is something related to the 'original dna' (what on earth is that) or genetic identity of brahmins / tamil brahmins, then i think you are not making any sense at all. (sorry sir, in terms of an identity, there seems to be no one single source as yet, individuals of the same haplogroups are supposed to have been related in remote times, various ppl of the the brahminical commnities turn up with diff haplogroups, no one knows how our understanding in future may change with advancing techniques).

Then again if you are saying consciousness as brahman gets transferred to "brahmins", what would that make the alwars, sages like agastya, yogis, etc. How about Mahavtar Babaji?

If you are saying the present day pakistanis are the orginal caste creators which was also part of the indian subcontinent (as per the archaic term), then in some sense do u think we are more genetically related to pakistanis if caste sytsem came from there. And if so the so called aryan concept came from there. could you please clarify on this. I guess sunni and shia are more related to iraqis and not pakistanis if iam right.

Abt being related to Pakistanis (not related to creation of caste system): several of our populations are related to Pak-populations. Many indians migrated from the NW into India in very ancient times. Sunni and Shias of India are generally indian (may include pakistan and afghanistan as central asian or ancient india). A very remote match to iraqis / kurds may exist in anyone (they do in hindus as well, such as me, not just given indian muslims).

 

[s007bala]

H H

Pardone me for confusing you.

>>If you are saying consciousness as brahman is something related to the 'original dna' (what on earth is that) or genetic identity of brahmins / tamil brahmins, then i think you are not making any sense at all. (sorry sir, in terms of an identity, there seems to be no one single source as yet, individuals of the same haplogroups are supposed to have been related in remote times, various ppl of the the brahminical commnities turn up with diff haplogroups, no one knows how our understanding in future may change with advancing techniques). <<

The one expands to many.The one is brahman ie in our case saguna brahman.But consciousness has no form.So nirguna brahman.Tamizh is a language used for communication from a particular region in bhu-loka.Just as other languages exist.The point of origination is Tamizh Nadu.

>>Then again if you are saying consciousness as brahman gets transferred to "brahmins", what would that make the alwars, sages like agastya, yogis, etc. How about Mahavtar Babaji?<<

Brahmins are those set of people,who have the ability,to understand brahman,and in some cases,explain brahman to majority of people.Alwars,Agastya,Yogis,Maha Avtar Babaji.....are technically Brahmins,imho.

sb

 

[vivekanand]

Hi bala

In fact i have read about upanisads texts and other texts and i do know about saguna and nirguna brahman. I also read about advaiatam and dvaitam philosphy and where how it origninated. In fact i have read about Ramanamaharishi teaching and ofcourse in their teaching they are talking about consciousness and the meaning of conciousness and how if functions. In fact there are some many yogis and who reached this plane. To my knowledge most of the upanisad was probably written by chatriyas and other people who were in quest of truth about what a human being is. Anyways for your statement
Brahmins are those set of people,who have the ability,to understand brahman,and in some cases,explain brahman to majority of people.Alwars,Agastya,Yogis,Maha Avtar Babaji.....are technically Brahmins,imho
In the current world everbody can become a brahmin, but set aside from in the modern world we have to start looking from genetics term rather than from catse terms, probbaly because thinghs might change after 50 years of how the world is. All iam saying be happy of your lineage and try to know how we came in this world. This would help us minimize our arrogance and ignorance

In fact to tell u some details, i have discussed some of the lead people in this genographic area and they have somethingh else to say about DNA, the way it looks like they have collected lot of samples and they have done lot of ground work by collecting samples from indegneous people and other people to find out how man started to migrate. Ofcourse we have to give due credit to westerners because they have been much adventorous and have proved lot of theories of that lot of mythology has been wrong. The debate here is genetic ancestry

 

[vivekanand]

Re : Happy Hindu Asnwer

Hi Happy Hindu

Thanks for your detailed reply on genetic ancestry, Iam very happy to hear that u got detailed version about genetic ancestry. In fact i did send some email to Dr Pitchappan and i got reply from him promptly, however the problem somebody should be having a proactive spirit to take this activity to get the data points and iam not finding anybody proactive here/there, iam really amazed by americans and europeans that they cooperate to give data points which i do not see here. In fact i did discuss with some of my freinds and soem of them are really interested and there are brahmins gathering here and there and it is just these people from madurai should go to school and college to gather data points and brahmins and other caste functions to gather data points. But nobody is willing to cometogether on these things. Nobody understands that these data points will be useful at some point in life. Now that technology is there at our disposal and there are data points why cannot people take initiative to gather details. In fact the subcontient has lot of data points and stories to tell. In fact i had a discussion with another elder person and he is willing to give but how to gather people and collect data sets and get the trust is the question here.

Ciao
Vivek

 

[s007bala]

re

Shri Vivekanada

I am not sure what to infer from your reply.To me,those people who have the ability to understand brahman concept and explain brahman are brahmins.They could be born in any part of the world and could be any citizenship.This is my opinion.Besides this,this DNA,Blood Group,Genes...etc are only physical dimension of the brahman consciousness.The consciousness can exist without any 'body' as pure consciousness,as supreme truth.This is my self-realisation.I do not expect nor am i expecting people to adhere to this view point nor am i proselytising this view of mine.Hope i am clear and articulate,at least now.If i have confused you as well alongwith shrimathi H H,i truly am sorry,on account of my poor writing ability.But thanks.

sb

 

[happyhindu]

Hi Vivekanand,

You are very right about us Indians being least proactive in these things.

I think the main reason maybe bcoz of prohibitive costs. To do hvr1 alone, a company usually charges a minimum of 90$. The more detailed stuff you want, the more you pay. If you want the most in depth stuff available as of current time, then you very easily pay one company about 1000 US$ for one person alone. And most times, people also want to try out other companies, so it all adds up very fast.

But genetic ancestry apart, it would be great to have the right version of history first. The anthropological basis to the development of religion and various cultures cannot be overlooked. So it wud all end up as a very inter-disciplinary thing.

While the west accepts biblical stories or oral traditions to help shed light on migration patterns, for us indians this may not really work (our imaginations run wild and stories are very over the board, extra-ordinary kind, some portions or stories in the puranas are narrated by pigs or crocodiles -sigh! some are outright ridiculous). But then there are also some parts that might help..like there is a story in the padmapurana about yayati asking yadu to kill his wives devyani and sharmista (as a test) so that he cud marry his lady love; and when yadu refused yayati cursed him that his decendents wud bcome matriarchial...that may explain the migration of some yadus who went down south and followed a matriarchial culture like the bunts and nairs (?).

Then there are many times when history (or data points as you say) do not match genetic migratory patterns. Given the regional ticks in these things, data points for brahmins cud really be interesting. For now, it is thought by some that various tribes probably had their own brahmins who later merged into a class system, so origins may not be the same for all.

 

[vivekanand]

Re : Genetics and migratory paths

Hi happy Hindu

Yes i agree in lot of terms, The west always agrees with bibilcal thinghs even when u read spencer wells book there are few thinghs which he starts off with by saying ADAM of course what we have to know is that his ADAM and Eve is 60000 years old (which is totally wrong as per the bible traidition) and nobody still knows how many people migrated, In fact according to hindu tradition Ramanayana and upanisadhs are the oldest and the concept has been 60000 years old of course if ramayana seems to be true then we have to trace facts say 60000 years ago. There are lot of good thinghs in Hindu religion like sanskrit and upanisads and other deeper insights.

In fact regarding substantial cost i did ask professor the cost posted in national geography is really high, and he did mention that giving data points to him (at least 100 data points) would result in free cost and will result in giving knowledge abouth some question i had posted.

It looks like you have done more field work in this field, seems like you have done amount of genetic research. But one thing which seems to be interesting is whether our history text books are right or not. Who were the actual indus valley people, who were the orginators of the veda like for example i associate myself with sama veda and if you look the caste system had given good and bad thinghs it did isolation which could give us an identity and now if use these caste for finding our genetic traces it could help if we have really followed our pattern as per the norms of the caste system. In fact i always look at what IBm is doing research in and find out what they are comming to. In fact as more schools are opened up amd help on technology front is taken from the west and myhtological tales from the east then we would be able to get a clearer picture, Initiatives like potical corperation, people coorperation and honesty could only help in solving these problems. For example nobody knows who these naga sadhus are and where they came from, if genetic data helps in solving this problem it would be good or probably mystery remains as mystery.

Ciao
Vivek