Does anyone remember the hindu contributions to mathematics and science ?

[kunjuppu]

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excellent post sapr. congratulations!!

Dear Anand,
I think you havent really understood conversion mechanism and threw away the usual talks of Money/luring/poor dalit etc etc, keep blaming this way, without understanding that mechanism in depth.. This study is the need of the hour.. First of all, one need to acccept the inablity to propagate the faith... or win over the propagation of other faiths in terms of Spirituality & God concept..I have often heard many of us saying, 'we dont convert/propogate our faith'.. Is that a statement of merit or proves the inablity? Hinduism is the oldest, with grandeur philosophies and has lot of goodness in it..Whats wrong in sharing/teaching the 'Hindu Philosophy' to others.. You say, you found goodness/spirituality/comfort in hinduism, but what stops you from sharing the goodness to others ? Arent you being bit selfish here?

If money can buy souls, it would be the most easiest one. And do you think hindu souls are so cheap? or let me put it in another way.. Do you think the hindu faith,spirituality and hindu foundations are so weak, that it could be bought over by money? I read is somewhere, the the Catholic Church in India's real-estate value in terms of Prime location colleges,Churches and hospitals is second largest in India, only next to Indian Defence establishments which runs to few hundrend Bn$. If money can by souls, they could have sold the lands, and purchased hindu souls..

You know well, South Korea commands a richest economy, and similarly, just last 40Yrs, it has become a Christian majority country. It may contradict your point that, only poor and lowercaste getting converted.. Anyways,no religions talk/promise of making someone rich or promote worldly materialistic things. Yes, being in a Christian society (not refering here follower of Christ) it has really helped people to come up in social life, cos, the missionaries took up the job of 'Educating them and there by liberating people (which hindu society miserably failed to do ), and found Hospitals, in line with the 'Good Samaritan' ideology.. And these really helped people become rich, not that reading Bible /going to church helped them to become rich.

Take for eg, Kannyakumari dt.. Its now 47% Christians, 100% literacy, and every village (be it hindu /muslim/Christian ), you will find a Christian institution.. It all happened in last 100 years. Now, if you go to any IIT/Eng College/Medical college/ you find KK dt boys...And they have infested and occupied most of the TN Govt Jobs...Its a known fact.. Guess why...Is it because of Christianity ( or) because of the empowerment they got by Christian educational system..I would choose the later.. Sad to say, there is one old famous college called 'Hindu College", and admission is only open for Vellalar/Pillai hindus..That college which was once famous, has no takers now.Where as, go to any christian institution out there, you will find diversity in caste/religion. As Shri.Nacchinarkinyan once said, St.Joseph's trichy,was once a Brahmin Bastion. If conversion was the (subtle) intention, they would have admitted only dalits not Brahmins.


So in my view, Money or Subtle offerings cannot buy faith.. There is lot more in to it,which neither the Hindutva nor Swamiji's explored it. They never pondered beyond foreign Money/Dalit Caste.

The jist is... Do good to others.. Help them in need.. Liberate them..respect human dignity.. .Uplift them.. Then, they will curiously ponder, what has prompted/inspired that stranger, to do such a self-less service and try to follow that stranger..Once convinced, he too will get stimulated to reciprocate that help to the society in the name of God. And the chain goes on... One may discount it as MLM, but there should be concrete thing to develop such a strong inspiration... Ponder over it.. Today onwards, try doing this good help to the society. Don't limit that service to relieve your accumulated karmic debts (just as a compensation), even if you have no-bad karma, still do good to others...Soon you would find many a people following you, to find the reason for such a good transformation in you..

Will share some thoughts about it, in my forthcoming post.


PS: I fully agree with your quote on meeting between Kanchi Sankaracharaya acharyal and Vatican Cardinal .. Two good cripy points in the minutes of the meeting... Dont do forced conversion and dont kill non-hindus in the name of religion. Yes, a society should not tolerate these 2 things... I can say, its a historical meeting and Im glad that Vatican has engaged this dialogue with the 'right person' in India, ie, Kanchi Acharyal..

 

[anandb]

Not sure how one can equate antibiotics with WMD and food coloring. Sir, if not for antibiotics, most of the world's population wud not have survived stuff like plague that used to visit us just sometime back.

The problem with science is when it finds a cure for something it creates a new problem down the line. A quote from http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/sick/antibiotic_overuse.html# - antibiotic resistance is a widespread problem, and one that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention calls "one of the world's most pressing public health problems." Bacteria that were once highly responsive to antibiotics have become increasingly resistant. Among those that are becoming harder to treat are pneumococcal infections (which cause pneumonia, ear infections, sinus infections, and meningitis), skin infections, and tuberculosis.

It is now an accepted fact even within the scientific community that prescription of antibiotics is the primary cause for destroying the immunity function in human beings making him susceptible to a variety of diseases. My GP who is probably one of the few conscientious doc. around almost does not prescribe AB for common flu and suggest alternative and less aggressive medicines. There is a huge nexus between the drug industry and doctors especially in the USA. Recently there was a news item saying the US pharma industry spends USD 25 billion annually on giving lavish gifts to docs - paid vacations, cash gifts, training costs for career development to do what - to prescribe their antibiotics to patients. Read this piece http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/02/pads-pens-presc.html

I put all these in one category just to show that there is not enough long term research to show the bad side effects. Mankind is finding out now after consuming these for decades. Basically the human population growth is going out of control and to cater to increasing demand everything from manufacture of products to research to back up these products are being fast tracked. Another one I forgot to mention is the burning of fossil fuels to cater to mass market demand for products have polluted the environment and created global warming the impact of which will be felt in future generations.

 

[anandb]

I think you havent really understood conversion mechanism and threw away the usual talks of Money/luring/poor dalit etc etc, keep blaming this way, without understanding that mechanism in depth.. This study is the need of the hour.. First of all, one need to acccept the inablity to propagate the faith... or win over the propagation of other faiths in terms of Spirituality & God concept..I have often heard many of us saying, 'we dont convert/propogate our faith'.. Is that a statement of merit or proves the inablity? Hinduism is the oldest, with grandeur philosophies and has lot of goodness in it..Whats wrong in sharing/teaching the 'Hindu Philosophy' to others.. You say, you found goodness/spirituality/comfort in hinduism, but what stops you from sharing the goodness to others ? Arent you being bit selfish here?

Haha, this is like saying I am not attacking the neighboring country because I am unable to do so and not because I believe it is unjust to do so. I think you have not understood Hinduism fully. Not converting other faiths does not mean we are unable to do so but it basically goes against the Hindu principle of “The Supreme is one but the paths to reach him are many”. So basically Hinduism says you can be born in any religion or faith but practicing it faithfully you can still reach the ultimate. That is why even an atheist has a place in Hinduism. The Paramacharya comments about the atheist in a humorous way. An atheist is always trying to disprove god all the time so god is in his mind all the time and probably more so compared to a believer. And where are all these assumptions about me coming from?


If money can buy souls, it would be the most easiest one. And do you think hindu souls are so cheap? or let me put it in another way.. Do you think the hindu faith,spirituality and hindu foundations are so weak, that it could be bought over by money? I read is somewhere, the the Catholic Church in India's real-estate value in terms of Prime location colleges,Churches and hospitals is second largest in India, only next to Indian Defence establishments which runs to few hundrend Bn$. If money can by souls, they could have sold the lands, and purchased hindu souls..

Well, I am not thinking Hindu souls are cheap but the missionaries aiming at conversion seems to think so. I don’t think the Catholic Church need to sell their lands in India. They will definitely need them once their goal is accomplished. The Vatican is the largest religious institution in the world in terms of assets and you may be aware that they make huge amounts of money in the stock market, commodities market and currency market. The Vatican Bank is a separate institution not answerable to any authority.


You know well, South Korea commands a richest economy, and similarly, just last 40Yrs, it has become a Christian majority country. It may contradict your point that, only poor and lowercaste getting converted.. Anyways,no religions talk/promise of making someone rich or promote worldly materialistic things. Yes, being in a Christian society (not refering here follower of Christ) it has really helped people to come up in social life, cos, the missionaries took up the job of 'Educating them and there by liberating people (which hindu society miserably failed to do ), and found Hospitals, in line with the 'Good Samaritan' ideology.. And these really helped people become rich, not that reading Bible /going to church helped them to become rich.

Applying your ideology, you may say that America became the number one country in the world due to Christianity. Will you also blame Christianity for the downward spiral which is happening there right now? When will we learn to differentiate that economic backwardness or forwardness has nothing to do with religion. If Hinduism has to blamed for the plight of the downtrodden how come even Westerners acknowledge the glorious civilization we were 1000 years back.

Take for eg, Kannyakumari dt.. Its now 47% Christians, 100% literacy, and every village (be it hindu /muslim/Christian ), you will find a Christian institution.. It all happened in last 100 years. Now, if you go to any IIT/Eng College/Medical college/ you find KK dt boys...And they have infested and occupied most of the TN Govt Jobs...Its a known fact.. Guess why...Is it because of Christianity ( or) because of the empowerment they got by Christian educational system..I would choose the later.. Sad to say, there is one old famous college called 'Hindu College", and admission is only open for Vellalar/Pillai hindus..That college which was once famous, has no takers now.Where as, go to any christian institution out there, you will find diversity in caste/religion. As Nacchinarkinyan once said, St.Joseph's trichy,was once a Brahmin Bastion. If conversion was the (subtle) intention, they would have admitted only dalits not Brahmins.

Again my target is only the missionaries and the members of the Catholic Church who are engaged in conversion. I am not talking ill about Christian schools, colleges or hospitals not engaged in conversion activity. But when it comes to intention there is definitely a subtle intention even among these institutions. My wife went to a Christian school where she was not allowed to wear a bindi or Indian clothes. She said that when she said her morning prayers in the pooja room she used to end it by crossing her heart. Luckily her Hindu ethoses were stronger and prevailed. I can even live with subtle intention but these days the missionaries are zealots. You need to go through these links to understand more about their modus operandi. There is something called “Inculturation” which is a tool followed from time immemorial.

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=638

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=634


So in my view, Money or Subtle offerings cannot buy faith.. There is lot more in to it,which neither the Hindutva nor Swamiji's explored it. They never pondered beyond foreign Money/Dalit Caste.

Well, if money can buy votes, if money can bribe politicians, bureaucrats and policemen, it can definitely buy faith as well.


The jist is... Do good to others.. Help them in need.. Liberate them..respect human dignity.. .Uplift them.. Then, they will curiously ponder, what has prompted/inspired that stranger, to do such a self-less service and try to follow that stranger..Once convinced, he too will get stimulated to reciprocate that help to the society in the name of God. And the chain goes on... One may discount it as MLM, but there should be concrete thing to develop such a strong inspiration... Ponder over it.. Today onwards, try doing this good help to the society....Soon you would find many a people following you, to find the reason for such a good transformation in you.. Will share some thoughts about it, in my forthcoming post. [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

I totally agree with you on the above.

PS: I fully agree with your quote on meeting between Kanchi Sankaracharaya acharyal and Vatican Cardinal .. Two good cripy points in the minutes of the meeting... Dont do forced conversion and dont kill non-hindus in the name of religion. Yes, a society should not tolerate these 2 things... I can say, its a historical meeting and Im glad that Vatican has engaged this dialogue with the 'right person' in India, ie, Kanchi Acharyal..[/QUOTE]


Hmmn, if I read the reports of what happened in the press conference later, I am not very encouraged.

 

[sapr333]

Not converting other faiths does not mean we are unable to do so but it basically goes against the Hindu principle of “The Supreme is one but the paths to reach him are many”. So basically Hinduism says you can be born in any religion or faith but practicing it faithfully you can still reach the ultimate. That is why even an atheist has a place in Hinduism.

[/COLOR]

Dear Anand,

I think you have made a suicidal argument here.. If are true to your statement, then you should not be having any problem with conversions!. You can call an Indian-moslem also as a hindu,and be content with that.What more change you want in them to be called as hindu? I would appreciate if you could take some effort to narrate a detailed answer.. Just curious!!

There is another set of arguments goes on with 'way of life'. If your moslem friend, follows pure hindu culture,attire,celebrate diwali,give up non-veg and strikes a deal with you saying, common my friend!, Since you agree that all paths leads to One-God, so,lets both follow the teachings of Koran,while strictly maintaining the pure Indian-Hindu-Culture, will that be acceptable to you? In that context also, you should not be having any problem with conversion, cos majority of the Non-Hindus do follow the Hindu-Culture?

And the terrible blunder here is, accomodating aetheism (Im not mentioning about the peson/ Aetheist citizens, Im stress the point 'ism").. I have seen in many a debates,where people tend to side-line with aetheism/communism just to counter other religions... What a blunder to accept the ideology of aetheism, for a person, who is on the pursuit of God? Logically,how can two contradictory ideologys, be right, bothways? In this context, you should be accomodative with the aetheist acrimonious talks of EVR and Dravida Kazhakams also...Why you are opposing them?

Sticking on to this logical fallacy, has resulted in yet another huge blunder... ie, Fall of the only remaining hindu kingdom Nepal and gone in to the commies.. Did any one raise the voice? Can anyone say anything now, against the commies stretching their hands in to the 'Lord Pashupathinath temple"..

In that context, I will share something what the Catholic church has done in Poland in the 80's. During the period of martial law, the Catholic church was the only force (not even the neighbouring countries) that could voice protest comparatively openly.Church voiced for the rights of the Warsaw steel workers in an un-armed gandhian way. Why they did so? Cos, they are truly opposed to the No-God ideology and supression of human-freedom (not oppososed to the communits as a person/human,but only ideology).. End results, communism collapsed, and people now could go freely worship God.

If time permits wait for the re-telecast of movie 'To Kill A Priest' in PIX channel, which is about this revolution in poland. You will know how a priest, in the name of God,with his speeches and motivation gathered the followers and toppled the communist govt, without taking arms.

Analyse this case, with, what happened in Nepal.. Do you worry about this entry of aetheists or just want to accomodate them? What was the contribution of each one of us ? Where were those parivars/RSS/Sena, who often scream of conversion, when, a whole country was converted in one day at gun point?

Regarding your point on Rich Christian-Poor Hindu-America, I have clearly mentioned my view, which is also the same, in line with your views.. Wonder why you twisted the topic here.. Pls re-read my previous posts carefully, with the right context..

Above all, Im quite surprised by your remarks over Kanchi Acharyal-Cardinal meeting..Im not sure about the authenticity of your link.. I relied on the national public press/media, which was indeed positive.. May be, such dialogues may not be of interest to you.. I think you wanted the Cardinals to dialogue with Sena/Parivars, not with Acharyals.

PS: I have only presented here a complex views and questions.. Frankly I have no answers to my queries.Regarding your view on conversion, in changing times and technology, and peoples quest for knowledge in this era of communications, there is something which every one needs to change themselves and their views.. 'World has become smaller and flat now!!.

 

[sapr333]

Anand>>>Not converting other faiths does not mean we are unable to do so but it basically goes against the Hindu principle of “The Supreme is one but the paths to reach him are many”>>



Dear Anand,
Fine, so do you believe the suicide bombers will be gifted with 72Houries by the same God you and I are trying to reach, by doing good deeds?

In my view, if you have somethig good , or if you have explored the Ultimate Truth about God,please share it to others. Dont hesitate... Or dont be selfish in keeping that secret within you. Let him also enjoy the goodness what you have enjoyed in your religion..Let him enjoy the Yoga and Spirituality..Let him also understand the importance of rituals.. Please go out to share with him.. Tell him according to 'Karma' and explain him that he has to repay for the suicidal killing, or according to God's Justice you have to pay the price, so better follow my way, so that you can lead a peacful tolerance life..Advice him.. He may change and follow you. You can inspire him to follow your way, by your own actions. You may call it as 'Conversion' but I call it as 'conviction'...


>>>Well, if money can buy votes, if money can bribe politicians, bureaucrats and policemen, it can definitely buy faith as well.>>

Well , then,Are you accepting here. that ,the 5000 year old ancient hindu faith is so fragile and vulnerable to money? I dont think so..If so, Moguls/Brit's would have bought the entire 850Mn souls.Bill Gates/Warren Buffet put together could easily buy few hundred thousands of souls, instead of putting their money in AIDS foundations.

If money can buy faith, Im sure in a developing economy like India, money can also buy back the converts...Why is it not happening otherway around? Can NarendraModi buy back atleast some 5 souls of thos who converted out of Hinduism for want of money...I dont think so..There is lot more in to it. Will post it soon..

 

[anandb]

Reply Part 1

Looks like this reply is long so will post in two parts. my comments in blue.

I think you have made a suicidal argument here. If are true to your statement, then you should not be having any problem with conversions. You can call an Indian-moslem also as a hindu,and be content with that. What more change you want in them to be called as hindu? I would appreciate if you could take some effort to narrate a detailed answer.. Just curious!!

As I mentioned before, I do have a problem with conversions and I will tell you why. I think everyone agrees that Hinduism is the oldest religion in this world and the Rig Veda is probably the oldest religious text in the world. In fact the word Hinduism was coined by foreigners to bunch together that group of people in the Indus region who were not following Judaism, Christinaity or Islam, the 3 major religions. Hinduism was preceded by Sanatan Dharma which is actually a way of life. During times of Sanatan Dharma and even just before the pre-Christian era, the entire world was practicing some form of worship essentially pagan in nature and very similar to our pantheon of gods. You go back to the history of early Egypt, Sumerians, Greeks, Romans, Incas, Mayas, Druids or Celts were all nature worshippers in the sense they had gods for sun, wind, rain etc. During those times there were no other religions but rather sects worshipping different gods. When our scriptures say all paths lead to god, it means as per your swabhavyam or family traditions you may worship Shiva or Skanda or Narayana but finally the goal is you reach the Supreme and get liberated from the birth/death cycle. This may happen in one life time or many. This truth has a hidden message to even the various sects within Hinduism. That you need to respect whomsoever worshipping whichever god he has chosen. For this reason, Hinduism was a pacifist religion which did not spread by sword. I don’t see any contradiction in my statement because a contradiction arises only when I as a Hindu goes and convert a Muslim or Christian into a Hindu. But my scriptures also say defend your faith when you see a danger to it. It is like the tamil saying “உன்னை கொல்ல வந்த பசுவையும் கொல்லலாம்”. When I see a danger to my customs, faith, tradition which could be completely erased or taken over by others, I will act. It has the same logic as practicing ahimsa. You practice it as long as the other party also honors it. But if your neighbor is going to start attacking you unreasonably then you are perfectly within your rights to defend yourself which may lead to a breach of the ahimsa doctrine. Again I have no problems with the average Christian and Muslim. Previously in the south all the communities lived quite harmoniously. Hindus visit the Shrine Velankanni Church in hordes and as a small boy I myself have had my head tonsured at the Nagoor Dargah. So I don’t want any of the Indian Christian or Muslim to be called a Hindu. My concern is addressed to the zealots who try to convert.

There is another set of arguments goes on with 'way of life'. If your moslem friend, follows pure hindu culture,attire,celebrate diwali,give up non-veg and strikes a deal with you saying, common my friend!, Since you agree that all paths leads to One-God, so,lets both follow the teachings of Koran,while strictly maintaining the pure Indian-Hindu-Culture, will that be acceptable to you? In that context also, you should not be having any problem with conversion, cos majority of the Non-Hindus do follow the Hindu-Culture?

I have no problem entering a Church or Dargah to pray as long as the question of superiority of gods or religion does not arise. Then going by the same logic of yours then why convert. Suppose I bring my Muslim friend home, show him our poojas, the colorful festivals, take him to a temple and show him the architecture, see that he is quite fascinated and then slowly and subtly tell him, why you don’t become a Hindu to enjoy the beauty of our religion, do you think he will take it. Well, appreciating the finer aspects of a religion does not mean I convert and start following it. Whenever I hear the call for prayer (Azan) in the mosques of Dubai, I am fascinated by the intonation and chanting and it has a meditative effect on me. I am a hardcore fan of ARR and I love his Sufi songs. But all this does not mean I will convert. Similarly, I don’t want any other person from any religion to convert into a Hindu.

And the terrible blunder here is, accomodating aetheism (Im not mentioning about the peson/ Aetheist citizens, Im stress the point 'ism").. I have seen in many a debates,where people tend to side-line with aetheism/communism just to counter other religions... What a blunder to accept the ideology of aetheism, for a person, who is on the pursuit of God? Logically,how can two contradictory ideologys, be right, bothways? In this context, you should be accomodative with the aetheist acrimonious talks of EVR and Dravida Kazhakams also...Why you are opposing them?

Hinduism tolerates atheists who are doing a lot of “Atma-Vicharanai”, not atheism per se. I can’t stand DMK or EVR because they are constantly attacking the believers. I find MK to be a sheep in wolf’s clothing. If these guys had just said “I don’t believe in god” and stopped at that I would have respected them more especially when they themselves cannot prove that there is no god. There was actually a particular incident which taught me a lesson and also the fact that all atheists are not bad. This was the initial time when lot of bad press was happening to Sri Jayendrar during the trying times of his arrest and all. When all the initial reports started coming in, I was totally vexed and confused. Me and my parents were big devotees of Mahaperiaval and I was dejected that these things were happening to the venerated madham. That time I was having a conversation with a supplier to our company, a tamilian non-brahmin guy whom I knew to be an atheist. I was expressing my doubts about periavaa and he was aghast and asked me how on earth I could have doubts. He was sure that they were all false reports and he will come out clean. I asked him how come being an atheist he believes that what was happening is a frame up. His answer astounded me. He said he does not believe in god, has never visited a temple all his life and has not even prayed. He has never visited the Madham or the swamigal. But he has heard and read a lot about Maha Swamigal and he said if at all he would come close to believing in god it would be him, albeit a living one. And he said one more thing which shook me. If you believe in the Maha Swami and call him your guru how on earth could you doubt his selection? This guy really opened my eyes and from that day I started praying for Sri Jayendrar and also getting into heated arguments with people who were accusing him. Finally we know what happened and I thought this atheist guy was better than so called believers than me. I think Hinduism supports people like him who are constantly searching for answers and not hypocrites like EVR or MK who keep hitting the believers below their belt.

 

[anandb]

Continuation of my previous reply.

Sticking on to this logical fallacy, has resulted in yet another huge blunder... ie, Fall of the only remaining hindu kingdom Nepal and gone in to the commies.. Did anyone raise the voice? Can anyone say anything now, against the commies stretching their hands in to the 'Lord Pashupathinath temple"..

I don’t think sticking to any fallacy has resulted in commies taking over Nepal. It is unfortunately the apathy and indifference of Hindus which leads to these kinds of situations. The problem is Hinduism is never an organized religion like Islam or Christianity. Islam is very structured and rigid with fatwas issued if anyone goes against it and while Christians are more open minded and liberal, the Catholic Church is huge with vast amount of resources and enormous clout with governments. Hinduism is a religion more in the spiritual than the material realm but I think in KY, the rules of the game have changed vastly. We probably need a huge Hindu body like the Catholic Church to take care of other things.

In that context, I will share something what the Catholic church has done in Poland in the 80's. During the period of martial law, the Catholic church was the only force (not even the neighbouring countries) that could voice protest comparatively openly. Church voiced for the rights of the Warsaw steel workers in an un-armed gandhian way. Why they did so? Cos, they are truly opposed to the No-God ideology and supression of human-freedom _(not oppososed to the communits as a person/human,but only ideology)_.. End results, communism collapsed, and people now could go freely worship God.

I am really not aware for what happened in Poland and don’t dispute what you say. But I have read a lot about the Catholic Church and I am not exactly in love with them. I don’t want to bog down this mail but if you are interested I can suggest a lot of reading material about the Church.

If time permits wait for the re-telecast of movie 'To Kill A Priest' in PIX channel, which is about this revolution in poland. You will know how a priest, in the name of God,with his speeches and motivation gathered the followers and toppled the communist govt, without taking arms.

Will do this.

Analyse this case, with, what happened in Nepal. Do you worry about this entry of aetheists or just want to accomodate them? What was the contribution of each one of us? Where were those parivars/RSS/Sena, who often scream of conversion, when, a whole country was converted in one day at gun point?

To me the ideology of the Commies and the Catholic Church is the same. The first is a “Godless” ideology and the second is a “Jealous God” ideology to “harvest as many souls as possible in Asia in this millennium” in the words of Pope John Paul II. Well, Hindus definitely need unity to counter whatever threats happen in the form of commies, violent atheism or conversion. Honestly, my contribution so far has just been writing in forums and blogs and making small monetary contributions but I think there will be a day it will be more active participation.


Regarding your point on Rich Christian-Poor Hindu-America, I have clearly mentioned my view, which is also the same, in line with your views.. Wonder why you twisted the topic here.. Pls re-read my previous posts carefully, with the right context..

I thought we were holding opposite view points.

Above all, Im quite surprised by your remarks over Kanchi Acharyal-Cardinal meeting..Im not sure about the authenticity of your link.. I relied on the national public press/media, which was indeed positive.. May be, such dialogues may not be of interest to you.. I think you wanted the Cardinals to dialogue with Sena/Parivars, not with Acharyals.

Well, Sir, don’t go by what the national press/media say. The days of the unbiased press are over. Rather you should visit public debates, forums and blogs where a lot of news and views are exchanged. You get both sides of the coin and you can decide for yourself. Especially, since I have read a lot about the history of the Catholic Church, I don’t trust them. Neither do I trust the Sena/Parivars but I do trust the Acharyals. I feel the Acharyals very well know what the Church is up to. In my opinion, the Acharyals met up only because the Church cannot later accuse that they tried for the peace meeting but the Hindus scuttled it. Laughably, the Catholic Church was accusing the Protestants of converting Hindus. To me whether Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Pentecostal, and Southern Baptist they are all the same. To me the Catholic Church smacks of big time hypocrisy because they burned thousands of people during Inquisition accusing them of performing magic, herbal cures and witchcraft. But when the very same stuff was performed by members of the Church they were termed as “Miracles” and the performers canonized.

PS: I have only presented here a complex views and questions.. Frankly I have no answers to my queries..

 

[kunjuppu]

anand,

i wish to congratulate on your doggedness. please treat this as a compliment.

sir, it is not often, that we have a viewpoint to say something, said it once, and are capable of repeating it, forcefully, yet politely, multiple times, while still holding the audience's attention.

anand, as you probably are aware, i do not agree with your logic. but i do agree, that you are indeed a great asset to this forum.

good stuff!

 

[anandb]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate all the view points of you all and thanks for the understanding that I am not trying to prove my point but rather just putting my point across. I understand the adage "to each his own". It is good to discuss things like this and get various viewpoints which unfortunately I cannot do in the country I live and work.

Thanks again.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Anand,

The problem with science is when it finds a cure for something it creates a new problem down the line. A quote from http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/sick/antibiotic_overuse.html# - antibiotic resistance is a widespread problem, and one that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention calls "one of the world's most pressing public health problems." Bacteria that were once highly responsive to antibiotics have become increasingly resistant. Among those that are becoming harder to treat are pneumococcal infections (which cause pneumonia, ear infections, sinus infections, and meningitis), skin infections, and tuberculosis.

I agree with you on the growing menace of antibiotic resistent infections. There are people who can argue on both sides of super staph and such superbugs.

Lets not blame antibiotics alone. Micro organisms evolve just as all life forms do. All life began from that single cell stage before prokaryotes and eukaryotes diverged some billions of years ago. Everything keeps evolving. Nature is designed to evolve.

Its also all about the darwanian struggle for existence, for every organism, a disease causing germ or otherwise. The more you find ways to wipe them out, the more they will find ways to survive. Its an ongoing war for survival. Much bigger than any war countries wage, since disease kills more than war. Lets say if mycobacterium is evolving, how can we blame man..

Not sure how one can blame the presence of rifampicin resistent mycobacterium on the use of rifampicin alone; or blame multidrug resistent tuberculosis on the modes of treatment (usage of antibiotics) alone. More than atleast half the world is still getting cured from tuberculosis because of classical antibiotics like rifampicin.

Hope you are not gonna blame the origin of sars on antibiotics. If not for antibiotics, wonder how many wud have survived sars. What is a matter of concern, is ofcourse the overuse of antibiotics. Even food, when overeaten, kills.

It is now an accepted fact even within the scientific community that prescription of antibiotics is the primary cause for destroying the immunity function in human beings making him susceptible to a variety of diseases. My GP who is probably one of the few conscientious doc. around almost does not prescribe AB for common flu and suggest alternative and less aggressive medicines. There is a huge nexus between the drug industry and doctors especially in the USA. Recently there was a news item saying the US pharma industry spends USD 25 billion annually on giving lavish gifts to docs - paid vacations, cash gifts, training costs for career development to do what - to prescribe their antibiotics to patients. Read this piece http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/02/pads-pens-presc.html

Sir, your GP and all GPs in the whole world know not to prescribe antibiotics for a simple sniffle and a wheeze. Amritham cannot be treated like water.

Reg doctors being "bought over" to prescribe stuff, its an old tactic. If two pharma companies manufacture the same medicine, ofcourse they will "gift" things to a doc to prescribe their product more.

If you are the person in charge in your company to order a particular variety of ball bearings, and there are 4-5 companies manufacturing exactly the same with no diff in quality, price, anything, then which one wud you prefer more? Obviously the one marketed by a sales agent who gave you a few gifts.

Why only doctors, even ppl can be bought over. There are quite a few companies putting together the typical concoction of 150 mg of propyphenazone, 250 mg of acetaminophen and 50 mg of caffeine into a tablet form, but advertizing ensure that people are bought over. They will go and ask the pharmacist specifically for "Saridon".


I put all these in one category just to show that there is not enough long term research to show the bad side effects. Mankind is finding out now after consuming these for decades. Basically the human population growth is going out of control and to cater to increasing demand everything from manufacture of products to research to back up these products are being fast tracked. Another one I forgot to mention is the burning of fossil fuels to cater to mass market demand for products have polluted the environment and created global warming the impact of which will be felt in future generations.

Lemme put it this way. You have heard of the benefits of neem. Yep its a great antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal, and so on. But if you consume neem everyday on a long term basis (overusage), it makes a man sterile. Are you going to say that neem, like antibiotics, is always bad, under any condition. Is this too not about appropriate usage instead of overusage or indiscriminate usage?

Sir, modern research helps us understand the nature of plants a lot more than you find in traditional books, it goes a few steps ahead , it helps identify which are the chemicals in a plant that cause certain properties and helps us make plant based treatment methods. Its research that has helped identify the spermicidal properties of neem and are making contraceptives out of it.

Agreed we are ruining mother earth with all that digging, drilling, polluting her with plastic, emptying out her womb of fossil fuels, but not sure if you are trying to class everything about research and modern science as only bad.

We cud go on about the examples. A lot about life seems more about moderate usage than the greed of overusage. But then, there will ALWAYS be "good" and "bad" to what man produces, just as it had been in the past, whether it is research or oterhwise, we are designed to innovate, not idle.

Thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sapr,

The jist is... Do good to others.. Help them in need.. Liberate them..respect human dignity.. .Uplift them.. Then, they will curiously ponder, what has prompted/inspired that stranger, to do such a self-less service and try to follow that stranger..Once convinced, he too will get stimulated to reciprocate that help to the society in the name of God. And the chain goes on... One may discount it as MLM, but there should be concrete thing to develop such a strong inspiration... Ponder over it.. Today onwards, try doing this good help to the society. Don't limit that service to relieve your accumulated karmic debts (just as a compensation), even if you have no-bad karma, still do good to others...Soon you would find many a people following you, to find the reason for such a good transformation in you..

Lovely post. Enjoyed it much.

For goodness to flow, why only MLM, anything and everything is fine..

But not sure if you are seeing hindus as selfish bcoz they do not reach out to others as much as say, the christians do. The root causes are funding and mismanagement of resources.

Governments and govt sponsored institutions in other countries receive funds for religious purposes, but in india the government eats up all the funds produced by a temple and will not even help maintain a temple.

When indians are generally poor, ofcourse they will want to make their own life better before reaching out to the other. Not sure they are being selfish by looking out for themselves first.

About church attendence and mlm, yes its true in cases of aggressive evangelism. Its like amway. You have to get a downline to get your income.

This does happen in the northeast. My maid is from the northeast. She told me about how a man gets tempted by money, converts, goes to church and then has to become a church fund raiser himself or he gets no handouts. Her cousin, a former brahmin, became one such church member. He is forever trying to get new people to join his prayer group. These are the places where fraud happens. I do not consider such people true christians.

On the other hand, i have had wonderful experiences of very very friendly people associated with convents, and very many christians.

Anand probably seems to think that all of them are out to convert or have that intension. No they are don't.

I have seen people converting out of freewill. When i was living in a hostel as a teenager, i saw a few people convert. They were not poor.

Over the years some are completely settled in their faith, but there are some who feel there is sooo much more to explore in life, and at some stage they neither identify themselves as a christian or hindu, they either feel both or neither, and drift on to try something else.

So far for me, for some strange reason or the other, i have drifted back to the hindu schools, yet the beleif-o-matic test rates me as a unitarian universalist, neo-pagan, and a mahayana buddhist more than a hindu. But, somewhere inside my head, am considering all of those belif paths as old nameless (hindu) paths....

 

[sapr333]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

. It is good to discuss things like this and get various viewpoints which unfortunately I cannot do in the country I live and work.

Thanks again.

Hmm.. here is my preample to you...

Dear Ananad, Please mark my words... Why you cant express your feelings ?..Why your freedom is curbed? And look back to your own posts.. Havent you expressed similar thoughts, like the rulers of the country you live in, though you are on the lighter side?

Please read my future posts in line with this thought & frame of mind.. Thanks in advance..

PS: Shri.Kunjuppu is really smart.. He knows how to drive us all in to a discussion..I really appreciate him.

 

[sapr333]

>>>>>But not sure if you are seeing hindus as selfish bcoz they do not reach out to others as much as say, the christians do. >>>

Dear HH,

Intentionally, I have shared some positive points about the Catholics (Russia/Poland), just to prove my point, that, how badly the issues of Commie Nepal or EVR/Kazagams were misgmanaged in the land of Hindus, surprisingly, supported by majority hindus,in line with the doctrine of 'accomodating aetheism'..Introspect, why we failed to fight EVR just by sheerly exposing his aetheist views? Why EVR or kazagams couldnt get a single MP seat (even BJP got 1 seat there) in the last 50 years in the christian populated KK Dt or southern parts of TN? Is that all about anti-hindu (or) anti-atheism? ..

There is a logical doctrinal fallacy here,when talking about the Poland/Russian aetheist downfall tutored by Catholic church based upon their strong faith towards concept of God (Anandb may call it jealous God though). Other than that, I have no intention of dragging Christians here..

Regarding your point of me'Calling Hindus as selfish'..I wish to be clear and crispy again.. I dont mix nationalism with religion. I very well distinguish 'ISM's and the followers of 'ISM'se ..And I respect the latter with my love, cos I care for the mankind and value human life and dignity..


>>>Her cousin, a former brahmin, became one such church member. He is forever trying to get new people to join his prayer group. These are the places where fraud happens. I do not consider such people true christians. >>

Please let our forum members know what the fraudulent activity was done by this particular person? If so, why it was not reported to the nearest police station? Dont tell me you expressed your tolerance by abetting a criminal!!
.

s

 

[carvaka]

I agree with Happy Hindu's thoughts...ideas manifest themselves through some individuals...we should remember we don't and never own them...

and above all it does not reflect our intelligence positively...

 

[sapr333]

Dear Anand, thanks for the long wonderful posts in 2 parts and I do appreciate your promptness in responding to posts..

This time, I thought we both should focus on the key issues which we were talking about in your previous post.. Rather, I was talking about..Here is few clips (bits n piece though) from your post which I would love to addresss.

>>> I do have a problem with conversions and I will tell you why..>>>. I don’t see any contradiction in my statement because a contradiction arises only when I as a Hindu goes and convert a Muslim or Christian into a Hindu.>>>>But all this does not mean I will convert. Similarly, I don’t want any other person from any religion to convert into a Hindu.>>>

I have a simple question.. Imagine if Im a Jew.. And myself seriously on my pursuit to explore the Ultimate truth about God, and finally stuck upon the ancient Hindu philosophy,and its Karmic doctrine of true justice,reincarnations etc etc... and I have a developed a deep convictions about Hindu Philosphy and wanna to pursue (convert) HINDUISM.... In this light,who are you to stop me from choosing my faith as Hinduism? Are you the central authority and guardian for Hinduism, who prevents me in being a follower of Hinduism? Who are to stop me from converting to HInduism or for that matter any religion? Who has given you that right (Unless you are a commie/Modi or a shariah)to stop my purusit towards my choice of God? What right you have on me to control my mind and my personal convictions towards my choice of God/Religion, which Im gonna keep it close to my heart?


>>>But my scriptures also say defend your faith when you see a danger to it. . When I see a danger to my customs, faith, tradition which could be completely erased or taken over by others, I will act.>>

But, truly learned persons of vedas dont buy your point..For argument sake, Lets say, Hindu traditions are in danger.. How are you going to counter.. As you cited earlier, 'Its ok to kill a cow, if its going to kill you...You mean, you are going to kill all those who are converting? Do some more acts of Graham Steins, Godra, Kandhamal etc.. How are you going to counter? In my view, it should be countered not by politics/anti-conversion laws/Islamic way of crubing... Rather, you should engage in dialogue/debate and make then understand the greatness of Hinduism. You should convert those who are against you, by your way of living and concept of God.. You should equally counter them by expressing the greatness of your idea of about the 'Ultimate Truth about God', which the whole mankind is still seeking on.. And for sure he would love to listen to you and follow you. Do you have any problem in expediting this?

>>
But all this does not mean I will convert. Similarly, I don’t want any other person from any religion to convert into a Hindu.>>>

Arent you curbing some ones freedom to choose his personal choice of faith? I would put it this way, arent you a big obstacle to the growth of HInduism, by not welcoming the new adherents and aspirants?



>>>
Hinduism tolerates atheists who are doing a lot of “Atma-Vicharanai”, not atheism per se. I can’t stand DMK or EVR because they are constantly attacking the believers. I find MK to be a sheep in wolf’s clothing.If these guys had just said “I don’t believe in god” and stopped at that I would have respected them more especially when they themselves cannot prove that there is no god.
>>>

Once again you have given a condition to the aetheists by citing 'Atma-Vicharani'.. there by you are contradicting your own point of hinduisms accomodative nature.. All these sheep and wolf talk doest matter here.. The question here is, Are you open to accomodate aetheist EVR/MuKA in to Hinduism.. If Charvarka could be accomodated, why not these guys also? Or you hate them because of their 'Reservation policy'.. if so, once again your religious views are made materialistic..Which I dont agree with you,cos, I know the 'Hindu Philosphy is not materialistic"".. so whats your take on this?


>>>In my opinion, the Acharyals met up only because the Church cannot later accuse that they tried for the peace meeting but the Hindus scuttled it.>>

How much it matters if the Indian church with just 2% population makes a statement on Acharyals. Be realistic.. Do you think Acharayals would have budged due to Church/International pressure.. No way!!.. Its a good guesture, and I do appreciate them, though, inspite of my repeated arguments, still you could'nt find a positive note between the historic meeting between the Vatican Cardinal and Acharyal.. And the outcome of the meeting is also impressive to me...

PS: Regarding your dig on Catholic Church, I dont care about it.. I only used few reference of Poland/Russia and communisim, just to to prove my point, out inefficiency to handle EVR/Kazhagams.. We mixed religion and Nationality.. Thats the problem

 

[sapr333]

>>When our scriptures say all paths lead to god, it means as per your swabhavyam or family traditions you may worship Shiva or Skanda or Narayana but finally the goal is you reach the Supreme and get liberated from the birth/death cycle>>>>



Dear Anand, finally you touched the point here...

You find difficult to follow koran inspite of the moslem agreeing to follow hindu culture..The answer to this lies in your own words.Tonsuring head in dhargah/keeping all idols of gods at puja room are just physical/ritualistic accomodation, but not spiritual accomodation. Accomodating moslems/parsis/christians (as a human being) is definitely different from accomodating the doctrines of particular religion. We cannot accomodate Forgiveness of Sins with Karma and reincarnation.. Its impossible logically too.. In that context you have clearly spelt the differnce in the last word ie, birth/dreath cycle/karma/re-incarnation..You cannot accept an inslamic view on this topic.

In that context, your point indirectly conveys, hinduism (Ism) is accomodative 'only' to shiva/skanda/narayana cos their doctrines on 'life after death' remains same. So, in my view, the statement of Hinduism ie Hindu philosophy being accomodative is not an acceptable one.. Yes, Hindus(in general Indians or S.Asians) are very accomodative in nature, thats due to the influene of our 5000 year old great civilization and culture.

Hence, your arguement of stating hindu philosophy as accomodative in nature and there by you oppose conversion is meaningless...And with that illogical statement, you are doing still a greater damage to Hinduism, by not inviting other religious people to explore/experience the great hindu philosophy , and become followers of hinduism (convert to hinduism)..


As I said earlier, you have no right on some one's 'Heart/Feeling/personal relationship with God', and hence you cannot stop back&forth conversions happening in this world.. Still you are free to do so, if you wish to follow the islamic way!! But then the flat-world is not moving that way, in this 21st century...

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sapr,

Dear HH,

Intentionally, I have shared some positive points about the Catholics (Russia/Poland), just to prove my point, that, how badly the issues of Commie Nepal or EVR/Kazagams were misgmanaged in the land of Hindus, surprisingly, supported by majority hindus,in line with the doctrine of 'accomodating aetheism'..Introspect, why we failed to fight EVR just by sheerly exposing his aetheist views? Why EVR or kazagams couldnt get a single MP seat (even BJP got 1 seat there) in the last 50 years in the christian populated KK Dt or southern parts of TN? Is that all about anti-hindu (or) anti-atheism? ..


Reg russia / poland, considering the cultural differences, i think if india were to become a fully communist country, still there wud be a diff b/w indian communism, chinese communism and russian communism. I suppose mismanagement happens, when a system that applies in one country cannot apply to an other country because cultural mores, and everything else, cannot be homogenized.

If there was someone merely talking about atheism all the time and doing nothing to develop a village, or to ensure basic facilities wrt to transport, medical facilities, etc; then ofcourse nobody will not elect a person. I also hear that VHERDS, a society insitututed by Sri Jayendra Swami to uplift poor villages, irrespective of caste, is doing well (swamiji used to interact with dalits himself). Plus i hear that people in the southern most parts of tamilnad are generally smart (more well informed than tamilians in other parts). Dunno how far its all true, but going by the fact that they tend to be more educated or well-informed, and wealthier than tamilians from other parts of tn, they certainly seem to be smart.

These days, i think everyone is well-informed. As people on the street, do we really care for religion, or bother to listen to such humbug rattled by a man wanting to promote himself as a politician on a dias; or do we want to be benefitted from our administrators. People certainly know they can vote out those who do not benefit them.


>>>Her cousin, a former brahmin, became one such church member. He is forever trying to get new people to join his prayer group. These are the places where fraud happens. I do not consider such people true christians. >>

Please let our forum members know what the fraudulent activity was done by this particular person? If so, why it was not reported to the nearest police station? Dont tell me you expressed your tolerance by abetting a criminal!!

Reg this particular person, the boy himself did not involve in fraud. As a school drop-out, he needed a "job". This is the kind of a job he got - bringing in church attendents.

Generally families in those northeast areas put aside money every month and boys like my maid's cousin go and collect money from people. Some people also deposit money straight with the assiatant working for the prayer group.

When people do not pay up for that month, they are made to feel as though they have done some grave spiritual crime, something like a spiritual extortion perhaps (?). Its actually all about getting the institution humming with funds though. The prayer group becomes more of an organized business unit with zero spiritualism and more of a business unit interested in generating profits, in these cases.

When the boy fails to get in more people to join his group, his handouts drop since its a fixed percentage of the monthly collection, and he grumbles on the phone to his sister (my maid) to send him money.

To me it seems tehre is no benefit involved in this for the people. They go to church to sing a few carols, confess, pay and come back. Dunno if they have even read the bible, pray at home or understand Christ at all. But its like a fashion for the younger lot there, to wear crosses but do things like drugs.

 

[arunshanker]

One Brahmin whom I have been studying as a part of my work is
Gopalasamudram Narayana Iyer Ramachandran, or G.N. Ramachandran, (8 October 1922 - 7 April 2001) who is widely acknowledged as one of the most important Indian scientists of the 20th century, best known for his work that led to his creation of the Ramachandran plot for understanding peptide structure. He was the first to propose a triple-helical model for the structure of collagen. He also made other major contributions in biology and physics.
See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopalasamudram_Narayana_Ramachandran
I am biased towards my science and profession
but let me tell you he is one of the BEST

 

[kunjuppu]

yes gnr, i have heard was good enough for a noble.

so is his son, ramesh narayan - professor in harvard. great guy.

 

[happyhindu]

arunshanker,

yes cannot imagine protein studies without ramachandran plot. he was as good as his teacher, cv raman, if not more futuristic than his own guru. solid noble material.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sapr,

Just clarifying a few things

You find difficult to follow koran inspite of the moslem agreeing to follow hindu culture..The answer to this lies in your own words.Tonsuring head in dhargah/keeping all idols of gods at puja room are just physical/ritualistic accomodation, but not spiritual accomodation. Accomodating moslems/parsis/christians (as a human being) is definitely different from accomodating the doctrines of particular religion. We cannot accomodate Forgiveness of Sins with Karma and reincarnation.. Its impossible logically too.. In that context you have clearly spelt the differnce in the last word ie, birth/dreath cycle/karma/re-incarnation..You cannot accept an inslamic view on this topic.

In that context, your point indirectly conveys, hinduism (Ism) is accomodative 'only' to shiva/skanda/narayana cos their doctrines on 'life after death' remains same. So, in my view, the statement of Hinduism ie Hindu philosophy being accomodative is not an acceptable one.. Yes, Hindus(in general Indians or S.Asians) are very accomodative in nature, thats due to the influene of our 5000 year old great civilization and culture.

Hence, your arguement of stating hindu philosophy as accomodative in nature and there by you oppose conversion is meaningless...And with that illogical statement, you are doing still a greater damage to Hinduism, by not inviting other religious people to explore/experience the great hindu philosophy , and become followers of hinduism (convert to hinduism)..

Sapr, i hear there are upanishads that specifically say there is no reincarnation. My guru says so. That there are monastic traditions that do not beleive in reincarnations, avatars, or idol worship (arya samaj is pretty similar). They beleive in a formless nirguna power that they call 'god' just like the islamic view.

At the same time there are beleif schools that partake of both, formless god and god with form. And there are saguna schools that beelive only in god with form, like christians.

Then there are schools that say there is no god like buddists. For example, purva mimansa does not beleive in god per se, it beleives in harnessing 'energy' in particular ways thru rituals to beget certain effects.

The uttara mimansa, on the other hand, believes in becoming one with that energy, thru practices like yoga, their sole aim of birth is attaining brahmaloka or brahman with no re-birth, re-incarnation. They are generally sans rituals except for the inititiation into the sanyashrama and physical death..

All these schools have somewhere mingled and amalgamated into making a hindu ecletic today. Sanatana, just a name for the nameless eternity, has accomodated numerous beleif systems with expanse of space to accomodate more. This the similar to the average chinese who mas mixed up the teachings of confucious, taosim, buddhism, and has become an all in one follower of a mix of those teachings.

It is possible to accomodate forgiveness of sins with karma-reincarnation. It just depends on understanding the concepts of sins, karma and reincarnations as per various schools. Hope you wud physically seek out teachers to learn.



As I said earlier, you have no right on some one's 'Heart/Feeling/personal relationship with God', and hence you cannot stop back&forth conversions happening in this world.. Still you are free to do so, if you wish to follow the islamic way!! But then the flat-world is not moving that way, in this 21st century...

i agree with you. If someone has a personal relationship with god, nobody else has the right to intrefere. If people convert, it must be out of freewill.

i suspect the 21st century will see people moving away from all forms of organized religion, where people go by an ecletic mix of teachings..

Tehre used to be a yuga where ppl died for their religion. Now you can see a muslim converting to be a jain, muslims turning atheists and forming a network of similar minded people; hindus turning into various religions; christians turning into sikhs, hindus and buddhist; sikhs turning muslims, and so on...

 

[anandb]

Dear Sir, please see my view in blue.

I have a simple question.. Imagine if Im a Jew.. And myself seriously on my pursuit to explore the Ultimate truth about God, and finally stuck upon the ancient Hindu philosophy,and its Karmic doctrine of true justice,reincarnations etc etc... and I have a developed a deep convictions about Hindu Philosphy and wanna to pursue (convert) HINDUISM.... In this light,who are you to stop me from choosing my faith as Hinduism? Are you the central authority and guardian for Hinduism, who prevents me in being a follower of Hinduism? Who are to stop me from converting to HInduism or for that matter any religion? Who has given you that right (Unless you are a commie/Modi or a shariah)to stop my purusit towards my choice of God? What right you have on me to control my mind and my personal convictions towards my choice of God/Religion, which Im gonna keep it close to my heart?

My point is there is absolutely no need to convert if one tries to understand that all paths lead to one god. I am not a Guru nor do I have any power to control anyone. But if a Muslim friend of mine tells me he wants to convert into Hinduism, I will definitely ask him to think twice. What is the guarantee that he will find in Hinduism that he perceives to be missing in Islam? Once he converts to a Hindu he could become as disillusioned as he was in Islam. I firmly believe that conversion into another religion has been made to be a joke these days. It is not like going and living in another country or changing jobs. It has immediate implications on the person’s psyche as well as his family. I think people who truly understand spirituality do not convert. I can cite 2 examples, a former judge M.M. Ismail and Dr. Abdul Kalam. Both were stalwarts in Hinduism. Kalam could recite the Vedas that he was actually known as Kalam Iyer by his colleagues. My point here is they appreciated Hinduism but never converted. Again I cite the Maha Swamiji. There was a masjid near the Sri Madam during the times of the Maha Swami. I believe the authorities of both the Madham and the masjid once decided to move the masjid to a further spot as devotees of both were getting inconvenienced. When Mahaswami heard this he prevented it saying that the Azan prayer in the morning was serving as a wakeup call to him as well. If you follow the teachings of a lot of revered gurus, you can see easily that they don’t try and convert anyone to Hinduism. I think this is the inherent strength of Hinduism, quality rather than quantity. Having said that, if someone wants to convert into Hinduism, it is his personal choice. I am nobody to stop it.



>>>But my scriptures also say defend your faith when you see a danger to it. . When I see a danger to my customs, faith, tradition which could be completely erased or taken over by others, I will act.>>

But, truly learned persons of vedas dont buy your point..For argument sake, Lets say, Hindu traditions are in danger.. How are you going to counter.. As you cited earlier, 'Its ok to kill a cow, if its going to kill you...You mean, you are going to kill all those who are converting? Do some more acts of Graham Steins, Godra, Kandhamal etc.. How are you going to counter? In my view, it should be countered not by politics/anti-conversion laws/Islamic way of crubing... Rather, you should engage in dialogue/debate and make then understand the greatness of Hinduism. You should convert those who are against you, by your way of living and concept of God.. You should equally counter them by expressing the greatness of your idea of about the 'Ultimate Truth about God', which the whole mankind is still seeking on.. And for sure he would love to listen to you and follow you. Do you have any problem in expediting this?

I don’t know why you construe my words “I will act” as going out to kill someone. I think I have repeated so many times that I don’t identify with fascist ideologies. All I am saying is if there is a danger, be aware and act accordingly. My first step here is at least be aware. The second step is to act (viz) all that you have mentioned later. But for dialogue to happen the playing field should be level, meaning on one hand you say that you are not converting while actually doing so by publishing an Indian Bible with borrowed concepts from Vedas, adopt all kinds of “inculturation” processes. It is very important to study and know how Christianity and Islam really evolved, developed and spread. To me they perfectly fit the concept of apauresheya (man-made) religions.


>>
But all this does not mean I will convert. Similarly, I don’t want any other person from any religion to convert into a Hindu.>>>

Arent you curbing some ones freedom to choose his personal choice of faith? I would put it this way, arent you a big obstacle to the growth of HInduism, by not welcoming the new adherents and aspirants?

I think I have answered or tried to answer this initially.


>>>
Hinduism tolerates atheists who are doing a lot of “Atma-Vicharanai”, not atheism per se. I can’t stand DMK or EVR because they are constantly attacking the believers. I find MK to be a sheep in wolf’s clothing.If these guys had just said “I don’t believe in god” and stopped at that I would have respected them more especially when they themselves cannot prove that there is no god.
>>>

Once again you have given a condition to the aetheists by citing 'Atma-Vicharani'.. there by you are contradicting your own point of hinduisms accomodative nature.. All these sheep and wolf talk doest matter here.. The question here is, Are you open to accomodate aetheist EVR/MuKA in to Hinduism.. If Charvarka could be accomodated, why not these guys also? Or you hate them because of their 'Reservation policy'.. if so, once again your religious views are made materialistic..Which I dont agree with you,cos, I know the 'Hindu Philosphy is not materialistic"".. so whats your take on this?

I thought I already answered this. They have no right to attack a believer of god just because they hold a position which is against their so called belief especially when they cannot prove that position themselves. When MK said there was no proof that Shri Ram could have been an engineer, well, there was no proof that he was not an engineer as well. I am just attacking their policies and again I don’t care if they are Hindus or non-Hindus or whatever. When EVR made a garland of slippers and put it on the Maha Swami’s picture, did the Maha Swami issue a fatwa and banned him from Hinduism. So who on earth am I to issue conditions and so forth. Please note that I am stating my opinion only and not some guru or a revered authority on Hinduism.


>>>In my opinion, the Acharyals met up only because the Church cannot later accuse that they tried for the peace meeting but the Hindus scuttled it.>>

How much it matters if the Indian church with just 2% population makes a statement on Acharyals. Be realistic.. Do you think Acharayals would have budged due to Church/International pressure.. No way!!.. Its a good guesture, and I do appreciate them, though, inspite of my repeated arguments, still you could'nt find a positive note between the historic meeting between the Vatican Cardinal and Acharyal.. And the outcome of the meeting is also impressive to me...

Haha, what is 2% today could be 20% tomorrow which is what is happening. The Church owns the maximum amount of land after the government and a disproportionate number of Churches are being built vis-à-vis their population. Can mean only one thing. That the harvest of souls is happening in right earnest. I am not saying this. A Christian magazine is saying it. Had forwarded the link before. http://mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=11492

PS: Regarding your dig on Catholic Church, I dont care about it.. I only used few reference of Poland/Russia and communisim, just to to prove my point, out inefficiency to handle EVR/Kazhagams.. We mixed religion and Nationality.. Thats the problem

 

[anandb]

Sorry sir, am not giving up as yet. see my replies in blue.

Dear Anand, finally you touched the point here...

You find difficult to follow koran inspite of the moslem agreeing to follow hindu culture..The answer to this lies in your own words.Tonsuring head in dhargah/keeping all idols of gods at puja room are just physical/ritualistic accomodation, but not spiritual accomodation. Accomodating moslems/parsis/christians (as a human being) is definitely different from accomodating the doctrines of particular religion. We cannot accomodate Forgiveness of Sins with Karma and reincarnation.. Its impossible logically too.. In that context you have clearly spelt the differnce in the last word ie, birth/dreath cycle/karma/re-incarnation..You cannot accept an inslamic view on this topic.

In that context, your point indirectly conveys, hinduism (Ism) is accomodative 'only' to shiva/skanda/narayana cos their doctrines on 'life after death' remains same. So, in my view, the statement of Hinduism ie Hindu philosophy being accomodative is not an acceptable one.. Yes, Hindus(in general Indians or S.Asians) are very accomodative in nature, thats due to the influene of our 5000 year old great civilization and culture.

Hence, your arguement of stating hindu philosophy as accomodative in nature and there by you oppose conversion is meaningless...And with that illogical statement, you are doing still a greater damage to Hinduism, by not inviting other religious people to explore/experience the great hindu philosophy , and become followers of hinduism (convert to hinduism)..


As I said earlier, you have no right on some one's 'Heart/Feeling/personal relationship with God', and hence you cannot stop back&forth conversions happening in this world.. Still you are free to do so, if you wish to follow the islamic way!! But then the flat-world is not moving that way, in this 21st century...


Well, we don’t go to plus two directly. We start from KG and slowly move upwards. As we move upwards, the brain evolves and learns from new experiences. Physical, ritualistic symbols are very important to acquire a spiritual realm. Again to quote the paramacharya, he says the average man follows all the rules of shastra like idol worship, rituals etc to acquire the discipline and move to a higher realm where he will not need the physical things anymore. Even with these physical things it may take many lifetimes to get the spirituality but at least an attempt is being made. If the mind is not disciplined it is not possible to acquire that spirituality. Of course there are exceptions to this where people continue from their previously accumulated merit.

I think Hinduism is a very accommodative religion. Otherwise it would not have survived to this day. Hindus are accommodative because of the doctrines laid down in our religion. Hinduism is a much older religion than Christianity and Islam. Naturally a lot of Hindu shastra and dharma have inspired the ideals of these religions. Will send you a link later on the similarities. I would term Hinduism as the parent and the others as sons. It is based on this very concept that the other religions have thrived in India alongside Hinduism. But then if the sons start usurping the father’s territory, the father has only two options – either keep quiet and concede because he is after all my son or fight back to keep the territory. You are suggesting the former while I am suggesting the latter.

Well, sir, we can wait and see about how these conversions will shape the world in the future. Samuel Huntington in his book Clash of Civilizations clearly predicted that future wars will be fought on ideologies. Just imagine a scenario where a Catholic Church or Islamic Jihad or a violent Hindutva is going to shape conversions. The fine line between what someone calls voluntary and forced conversion will just disappear. I think we are all going to beat each other until death where one person will say it is my right to convert and the other will say it is my right to resist conversion.

I would still thank the wisdom of our ancestors when they said there are many paths to reach god. And I actually find it amusing when such a brilliant and non-violent doctrine is twisted and interpreted by the zealot who says, “Then follow mine”. Logically may be right but then if religion is just logic, then why follow religion, let us just follow logic.

 

[sapr333]

Dear Anand, thanks for the wonderful post..

Carefully thoughtfully written. Give me sometime, will respond in detail..

 

[happyhindu]

Well, sir, we can wait and see about how these conversions will shape the world in the future. Samuel Huntington in his book Clash of Civilizations clearly predicted that future wars will be fought on ideologies. Just imagine a scenario where a Catholic Church or Islamic Jihad or a violent Hindutva is going to shape conversions. The fine line between what someone calls voluntary and forced conversion will just disappear. I think we are all going to beat each other until death where one person will say it is my right to convert and the other will say it is my right to resist conversion.

This is exactly why i think ppl will give up all forms of organized religion in future (if i were to go by beleifnet, the number of people who beleive in a 'higher power', but do not subscribe to any particular religion, seems to be on the rise).

In this world of awareness and communicative freedom, its the freedom of will and choice -- in india it will be the choice between a) hindusim of faith, and b) politically defined or organized hinduism.

I suppose there will be more people singing 'Love is my religion', in faith.