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dravidian movement for dummies

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kunjuppu

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for-dummiesl

this is in today's athisha's post, a blogger whom i follow.

the book reviewed 'dravidian movement ..' is for dummies per athisha. in a Q&A format, not only does it review the past history, but points out all the warts and mistakes.

that the author and reviewer want the movement to succeed, and not happy with its current status, is apparent. but not often we get a dispassionate view of the movement, as most books are fanatically for the movement and cannot fault it.

and here is a youtube interview with the author.

[video=youtube;usKcyQm58mo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usKcyQm58mo[/video]
 
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Dear Kunjuppu,

You did the right thing by just giving the video clip. If you had given the excerpts from the book itself I am sure you would have committed the mistake of bringing in the unmentionable name here and I would have reported to Praveen. The author of the book as well as the interviewer claims that the வெண்ணை, விளக்கெண்ணை, மொண்ணை language has been avoided in the book. That shows people are maturing. The author says he is the first graduate in his family and he owes it to the Iyakkam. I too am the first graduate in my family. But I did not have any such Iyakkam to look up to. If I owe it to anyone it is just my parents and my determination. Perhaps this is what people call supremacist and laugh at here. Perhaps there is indeed some difference between people because their genes after all!!. Some genes have an Iyakkam and some genes have determination.Thanks.
 
And many of the dk dravidian camp are ashamed of their parents and ancestors. If one blames one's community, it is because he feels the community has not done enough for him and has been let down. But the dk always blames brahmins.
 
....the book reviewed 'dravidian movement ..' is for dummies per athisha. in a Q&A format, not only does it review the past history, but points out all the warts and mistakes.
Dear K, I appreciate you posting this link here. Even if there are knee-jerk criticisms from some who have obviously not read the book, there may be enough people who may want to first read it and then pass a judgement on the book itself. I for one will do that.

From general observation though, one can see that the iyakkam has degenerated into two major factions lead by corrupt super-egos and an array of caste-based regressive parties. Looking at the landscape of party leaders I am not optimistic that the movement can be rejuvenated to serve as a progressive vanguard as it once was under the revolutionary leadership C.N. Annathurai and his great mentor. There may still be a slimmer of hope if the grip of MK's family is loosened from party leadership and people like the young author featured in this video are allowed into leadership positions. It is a long shot.

Thanks ....
 
Dear K, I appreciate you posting this link here. Even if there are knee-jerk criticisms from some who have obviously not read the book, there may be enough people who may want to first read it and then pass a judgement on the book itself. I for one will do that.

From general observation though, one can see that the iyakkam has degenerated into two major factions lead by corrupt super-egos and an array of caste-based regressive parties. Looking at the landscape of party leaders I am not optimistic that the movement can be rejuvenated to serve as a progressive vanguard as it once was under the revolutionary leadership C.N. Annathurai and his great mentor. There may still be a slimmer of hope if the grip of MK's family is loosened from party leadership and people like the young author featured in this video are allowed into leadership positions. It is a long shot.

Thanks ....

Dear Shri Nara,

I am not an expert in the Dravidian movement matters. But if and when the iyakkam people are able to identify a common enemy, they will, once again close their petty quarrels, form a united monolith and dislodge that common enemy. The iyakkam undergoing some changes, splitting vertically into two and retaining power between them for nearly 50 years has brought it down. If it continues in power it will further deteriorate and will be a miniature India as far as political developments are concerned, I feel.

Though tabras are a minuscule percentage to play any significant role in electoral democracy, this is the right time for tabra organizations to mend fences with other non-iyakkam parties and groups who are not anti-brahmin in outlook. Mayawati acted as a catalyst in bringing the dalits and UP brahmins together. Wii a similar grouping (of tabras and the dalits of TN) at the political level be possible? What is your view?
 
the iyakkam spans tamils telugus malayalis and kannadigas originated folks of tamil nadu. i see two big threats to this iyakkam now.

the first is tamil nationalism - which has place only for the tamils - tamil nadu for tamils. ie vellalars, dalits, nadars, vanniars mudaliars pillais etc. NOT nairs naickers naidus reddiars and such. tamil nationalism also calls for a independent tamil nadu with a loose confederation to eelam. these are now at the fore front of koodankulam agitation.

the infighting between the dravidians and the tamil nationalists, has turned vicious, albeit confined only to war of words. no holds are barred on both sides, and it may be only a matter of time before it spills to the streets. all depends on the results of koodankulam. i think.

tamil nationalism, has a tolerance of brahmins, though barely. i am now wondering about this, in light of a rabid anti brahmin article by suba udayakumar in keetru. பார்ப்பனத்துவமும், அணுத்துவமும். havent seen this type of rabid anti brahmin originating with such a vehemance recently.

andhanars are mentioned in the sangam age. though i dont know if those andhanars and tambrams of today are the same, but we can ask for the benefit of the doubt. but definitely in historical sense, naickers naidus reddiars et all, are vandheRis, breathing tamil soil only for the past few centuries. that, for a culture, which measures itself in milleniums, says a lot.

the other threat to the iyakkam, is the looming agitiations for trifurcation of tamil nadu - pandya kongu and northern. which will take the momentum out of a focussed anti brahminism, as the new states will be more involved in their own developed through the enfranchised majority communities, each now with a power structure and challenges. the ones impacted here might be the dalits, for whom, there is no love lost by the ruling castes of tamil nadu today.

kovi lenin, the author of the book, has apparently given as much coverage of the warts as athisha says, for those critical of the iyakkam. so i think it will be good exercise for those who do not identify with the iyakkam its goals its dreams or even why it started in the first place.

as i was growing up, i used to listen to the speeches of the various iyakkam luminaries and notice the light in the eyes of the cheri folks and hopes for the next generation. i think for all communities to get a piece of india's activities, no matter the size of the pie, is important. i was welcomed, and no difference was made, that i came from the maadi veedu, and sat among those from kudisai veedus :)

on my father's side, i too the first graduate, and the second generation to come out of the poverty trap. but i have seen the poverty and hopelessness of the cheris and our indigence was no where near some of what i have seen. that these too have a right for a share of india, and i only have to thank nehru, and ambedkar, for enabling a social revolution, without shedding a drop of blood. otherwise, if russia france or china were set as examples, as members of the so called elite class, the blood that would have been shed, would have been our community's. something, history has time and again taught us.

the observation is correct. the other castes would join together in a jiffy, if they ever suspected a upper handed under hand dealing by the brahmins to regain any priviliges, in the name 'merit' or such. 97% of tamil nadu is for reservations, and while it has largely served the purpose of the first and second generations, i think, the concept is at cross roads - creamy layers and poor forward castes, i think, should given state help, rather than a million BC OBC or Dalit. thoughtful tamilians of all castes, are thinking about this, which itself is a good sign, though it may be years before we see any action.

the jews are among the most ardent students of nazism only because they were the most impacted. why it happened and such, have been analyzed in detail by the jews. there is an intellectual curiosity. while i do not equate tambrams to jewish experience, in the light of many such comparisons here an elsewhere, apart from sheer hatred to the point of not even permitting certain name to be mentioned here, no one has even made one step in analyzing the rationale behind the iyakkam.

personally, i do not see the iyakkam as an aberration, but more in terms of 'cause and effect', and failure of our erstwhile ancestors, to see reality fairness and look into the future - that an independent india has more aspirants who have to be fulfilled, and given the small pie, have to be shared. ambedkar got it right. rajaji did not. i think so.

that it happened, and tamil nadu is seen by and large, all over india, as the forefront of social upliftment, why is it that we do not atleast give it a scholarly view and dispassionately view the causes. after all , this is history, and it happened since 100 years, and for 40+ years we have all lived and prospered within a dravidian ruled tamil nadu.
 
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Dear Kunjuppu,

Your post #6.

I think our pro-brahminist friends probably feel that by 'wishing away' what they dislike, they will have a more pleasant time here chit-chatting. It is like the Malayalam saying "கண் அடச்சு இருட்டாக்குக (kaṇ aṭaccu iruṭṭākkuka)" meaning, you close your eyes and then get convinced that there is darkness in the whole world!;).

I do not think the Tamil iyakkam will succeed to any significant extent because I genuinely feel that the Koodankulam agitation is an artificially trumped up one and it will die an abrupt death sooner or later. The leadership projected from that agitation will have to find out another group and another cause, to flourish beyond.

The trifurcation demand may fructify in another 10 or 15 years but, unlike the case of telengana, a case of developmental neglect will possibly be difficult to show except by northern TN, is it not?
 
....Though tabras are a minuscule percentage to play any significant role in electoral democracy, this is the right time for tabra organizations to mend fences with other non-iyakkam parties and groups who are not anti-brahmin in outlook. Mayawati acted as a catalyst in bringing the dalits and UP brahmins together. Wii a similar grouping (of tabras and the dalits of TN) at the political level be possible? What is your view?
Dear Sangom, to forge an alliance on caste lines would be a crass regressive move in the slim hope of recapturing some scraps of political power. With less than 3% of the population, that too concentrated in just major metropolitan cities, what would the Brahmins bring to the table? My wish, equally or more implausible wish, is for all in Tamil Nadu, Brahmin or not, to jettison their caste identity and join progressive forces and work for the betterment of common people.
 
Post #4 by Mr. Nara:

Even if there are knee-jerk criticisms from some who have obviously not read the book, there may be enough people who may want to first read it and then pass a judgement on the book itself. I for one will do that.


I will wait for that.

I am not optimistic that the movement can be rejuvenated to serve as a progressive vanguard as it once was under the revolutionary leadership C.N. Annathurai and his great mentor.


Just a doubt: needs an answer. What was so revolutionary about the leadership of CNA? We call a Lenin, a Mao an Ambedkar and a MK Gandhi and a Fidel Castro as a revolutionary and in the same breath do we call CNA also a revolutionary? About the "great" mentor the less said the better it will be.

......and people like the young author featured in
this video are allowed into leadership positions......


On the basis of a book written which is just a collation of events if one is judged to have exhibited leadership qualities,
<edit. please do not unneccesarily provoke or pull another member into an argument. If meant in the right way, kindly phrase your sentences properly so that it does not look like a bait. continous provocation and baiting can lead your account to be suspended. Just a quick note. - praveen > would say Agnihotram Ramanuja Thathachari is fit to become the PM of India or even President of USA. Please ask him.(I read the relevant part of the archives just a few minutes back).
 
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Post #4 by Mr. Nara:

<snipped >

On the basis of a book written which is just a collation of events if one is judged to have exhibited leadership qualities, Mr.Sangom would say Agnihotram Ramanuja Thathachari is fit to become the PM of India or even President of USA. Please ask him.(I read the relevant part of the archives just a few minutes back).

Agnihotram Ramanuja Thathachariar (ART) was a great vedic scholar who was recognised as such and also as a close friend by the elder Kanchi Acharya. I have great respect for ART but did I say anywhere that he is fit for PM's post? Vicious minds can never get out of their own self-created stinking gutter and roam about near the gutter itself.
 
Dear Sangom, to forge an alliance on caste lines would be a crass regressive move in the slim hope of recapturing some scraps of political power. With less than 3% of the population, that too concentrated in just major metropolitan cities, what would the Brahmins bring to the table? My wish, equally or more implausible wish, is for all in Tamil Nadu, Brahmin or not, to jettison their caste identity and join progressive forces and work for the betterment of common people.

Dear Shri Nara,

I did not mean 'forging alliances on caste lines'. What I meant was that our brahmin associations need to change their outlook and mend fences with other possible political entities in TN who have no anti-brahmin agenda. At present our associations function more like exclusive clubs to promote religion - by way of poojas, community feasts, pravachanams, brahmin matrimonial services, etc., only.
 
Kunjuppu in post#6:

Dear Kunjuppu,

Most of what you have written is a general appreciation of the Iyakkam and its leaders and there is nothing new from you on that . Your position on this matter is well known. So I have commented selectively from your write up which is a rather lengthy one.

the first is tamil nationalism - which has place only for the tamils - tamil nadu for tamils. ie vellalars, dalits, nadars, vanniars mudaliars pillais etc. NOT nairs naickers naidus reddiars and such. tamil nationalism also calls for a independent tamil nadu with a loose confederation to eelam. these are now at the fore front of koodankulam agitation.


Who is a real Tamil is a difficult to answer question. You have excluded Naidus, Naickers, reddies and nairs because they speak a different language. These are fourth or fifth generation people living in TN and have forgotten their original mother tongue. Many of these people do not speak their original mother tongue even at home. So they are as much tamils as others living in TN. Koodankulam and Eelam support are entirely different from the issue at hand. K0odankulam agitation did not get widespread support because it was not on the same level as Medha Phatkar's Narmada Andolan. Udayakumar was suspect right from the beginning. He used religion covertly and iyakkam(a faction of it) overtly thinking that he can extract something. But he lost miserably and now he is trying to become "controversial" to continue to be in the limelight.


the infighting between the dravidians and the tamil nationalists, has turned vicious, albeit confined only to war of words. no holds are barred on both sides, and it may be only a matter of time before it spills to the streets. all depends on the results of koodankulam. i think.

Koodankulam is a settled issue. Just before and during the Parliament election campaign some noises will be heard. After that even that will die down. Iyakkam will not fight Tamil nationalism because the latter can always be used effectively to gather a few votes and more importantly to embarrass the north based parties.

tamil nationalism, has a tolerance of brahmins, though barely. i am now wondering about this, in light of a rabid anti brahmin article by suba udayakumar in keetru. பார்ப்பனத்துவமும், அணுத்துவமும். havent seen this type of rabid anti brahmin originating with such a vehemance recently.

Tamil nationalism will not have any soft corner for brahmins because tamil brahmins will never have any such soft corner for a fissiparous nationalism based on language and region.

andhanars are mentioned in the sangam age. though i dont know if those andhanars and tambrams of today are the same, but we can ask for the benefit of the doubt. but definitely in historical sense, naickers naidus reddiars et all, are vandheRis, breathing tamil soil only for the past few centuries. that, for a culture, which measures itself in milleniums, says a lot.

Except dalits no one really belongs to TN. All others are vandheris only over centuries. The fact that brahmins have fully identified themselves with TN (they have contributed more to Tamil than any other single community or even all the other communities put together), that they do not have any other language as their mother tongue etc may not add to any thing in real terms.

as i was growing up, i used to listen to the speeches of the various iyakkam luminaries and notice the light in the eyes of the cheri folks and hopes for the next generation. i think for all communities to get a piece of india's activities, no matter the size of the pie, is important. i was welcomed, and no difference was made, that i came from the maadi veedu, and sat among those from kudisai veedus

Kunjuppu the light you saw was the light of hero worship for MGR. You perhaps missed the sound part of it. If you had gone to a theatre to see MGR movie your ear drums would have been subjected to a high decibel treatment with the whistling indulged in by the "rasikarkal" of MGR. It was always lights and sound show on the audience side. The poor had dreams and MGR livd those dreams for them.

on my father's side, i too the first graduate, and the second generation to come out of the poverty trap. but i have seen the poverty and hopelessness of the cheris and our indigence was no where near some of what i have seen. that these too have a right for a share of india, and i only have to thank nehru, and ambedkar, for enabling a social revolution, without shedding a drop of blood. otherwise, if russia france or china were set as examples, as members of the so called elite class, the blood that would have been shed, would have been our community's. something, history has time and again taught us.

You have contradicted yourselves. The first line speaks about a boy who was the first graduate who escaped from the poverty trap. The last line speaks about an elite class and the guillotines which would have played a role but for Nehru, Ambedkar etc., Which one is you?

apart from sheer hatred to the point of not even permitting certain name to be mentioned here,

Again you are courting controversy. The hatred is not on the part of brahmins. It is just a reaction to the dripping hatred which was there on the part of the "certain name".

personally, i do not see the iyakkam as an aberration, but more in terms of 'cause and effect', and failure of our erstwhile ancestors, to see reality fairness and look into the future - that an independent india has more aspirants who have to be fulfilled, and given the small pie, have to be shared. ambedkar got it right. rajaji did not. i think so.

It was not an aberration. It was politics.The cause was not what you think. It was the middle caste lumpen's desire to excercise power exclusively. Ambedkar got it right. All the TB members in the constitution assembly got it right. But unfortunately Mandal and VP singh did not get it right. the unmentionable name did not get it right. The iyakkam did not get it right (Look at Dharmapuri).

Thank you.
 
Sangom in #10:

Agnihotram Ramanuja Thathachariar (ART) was a great vedic scholar who was recognised as such and also as a close friend by the elder Kanchi Acharya. I have great respect for ART but did I say anywhere that he is fit for PM's post? Vicious minds can never get out of their own self-created stinking gutter and roam about near the gutter itself.

Dear Sangom,

You are turning livid with anger. Please cool down. We are not sworn enemies. I said I read what you had earlier written about ART from the archives. I found that you had quoted extensively in your posts there from the book இந்து மதம் எங்கே போகிறது? by ART. and You have said I "roam about near the gutter itself". Do you see the joke. You are telling that what you wrote there is all gutter and I am roaming there.

Now I give the context in which I brought you and ART into the picture. Here someone is telling that the man who wrote the book under review is having great leadership capabilities to become a ruler even without reading the book. Whereas you had read ART's book fully and you have great regard for ART. So logically ART has a better claim to become PM or President than this gentleman.This is what I said.
 
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Dear Shri Nara,

I did not mean 'forging alliances on caste lines'. What I meant was that our brahmin associations need to change their outlook and mend fences with other possible political entities in TN who have no anti-brahmin agenda. At present our associations function more like exclusive clubs to promote religion - by way of poojas, community feasts, pravachanams, brahmin matrimonial services, etc., only.
I don't know of any unified Brahmin association that can be considered to represent Brahmin interests in general -- I don't think ******* offers anything politically concrete for the Brahmins to get behind it.

Also, I don't think there is any political party with an active anti-Brahmin agenda. Those days are gone, Brahmins are no longer a political threat. In any case, I think at the present time Brahmins may feel welcome as Brahmins in BJP and ADMK. I think this is where you will find politically minded Brahmins. If there are Brahmins in parties like DMK or CPM they are very likely to be a Brahmin like me, an ex-Brahmin.

regards ...
 
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Sangom in #10:



Dear Sangom,

You are blind with anger. Please cool down. We are not sworn enemies. I said I read what you had earlier written about ART from the archives. I found that you had quoted extensively in your posts there from the book இந்து மதம் எங்கே போகிறது? by ART. and You have said I "roam about near the gutter itself". Do you see the joke. You are telling that what you wrote there is all gutter and I am roaming there.

Now I give the context in which I brought you and ART into the picture. Here someone is telling that the man who wrote the book under review is having great leadership capabilities to become a ruler even without reading the book. Whereas you had read ART's book fully and you have great regard for ART. So logically ART has a better claim to become PM or President than this gentleman.This is what I said.

Shri Vaagmi,

Yes, I am angry. I do not expect the low standard and mentality from a Professor and am only sympathising for the (ill-)fate of the students who are being taught by a person of your nature. And, to think that you represent "brahmin values", is really saddening.

I have no enmity towards you. But the way you are going about here - like a person licensed to write even very base language -and to claim that you are doing it in support of preserving brahmin values, seems repugnant to me. Despite your justification for bringing ART's name and myself, I object to your drawing imaginary conclusions and writing whatever comes to your mind. Why are you bent upon bad-tempered writing and "hitting" people and thereby incurring the ill-will? After all you have many more years to go and ill-will can affect persons in unimagined ways at unexpected times and then "அம்மா அழுதாலும் தொழுதாலும் வினையாகினாய்" will be applicable.
 
Mr. Sangom,

Yes, I am angry. I do not expect the low standard and mentality from a Professor and am only sympathising for the (ill-)fate of the students who are being taught by a person of your nature. And, to think that you represent "brahmin values", is really saddening.
I have no enmity towards you. But the way you are going about here - like a person licensed to write even very base language -and to claim that you are doing it in support of preserving brahmin values, seems repugnant to me. Despite your justification for bringing ART's name and myself, I object to your drawing imaginary conclusions and writing whatever comes to your mind. Why are you bent upon bad-tempered writing and "hitting" people and thereby incurring the ill-will? After all you have many more years to go and ill-will can affect persons in unimagined ways at unexpected times and then "அம்மா அழுதாலும் தொழுதாலும் வினையாகினாய்" will be applicable.

As usual the gutter is overflowing. If I curse you, you won't be able to bear it. As long as a member-this includes you- comes here and posts I have a right to present my views on that. I retain that right and assure you that I will be using that right. The rest of what you have written above I am not responding because it is just gutter.Thanks.
 
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Mr. Sangom,



As usual the gutter is overflowing. If I curse you, you won't be able to bear it. As long as a member-this includes you- comes here and posts I have a right to present my views on that. I retain that right and assure you that I will be using that right. The rest of what you have written above I am not responding because it is just gutter.Thanks.

Shri Vaagmi sir,

By now I have fully realized that 'cursing' (and not Physics or music or any other subject) is your forte and I humbly acknowledge it. Hence, if you decide to make a go at cursing with full vigour, even the nation's army may be demolished in a trice!;) But the right to posters in this forum so far did not include exhibition of such pyrotechnic brilliance!;) and used to be promptly erased out of record (read, "edited out"). I don't know whether Shri Praveen has since changed the forum rules,as a special case, in order to accommodate you as a member. Anyway, I am not even a learner in such techniques and would like to continue as I have been.

May be due to the culture-altered genetics thru millennia of lineage theory (Robert Boyd), you seem to take an obsessive delight in wading in gutter, besides sinking deep into its depths, called "archives". My best wishes to you for a permanent life in "gutter"!
 
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Mr. Sangom,

By now I have fully realized that 'cursing' (and not Physics or music or any other subject) is your forte and I humbly acknowledge it.

Why do you twist facts? Please read just your previous post. You cursed me and even quoted a tamil verse for the power of your curse. I have not cursed you so far. So again you are proving the same fact-that when you get angry you lose control and go into a spin. Please cool down and get back some of the lost control. That will do a lot of good to you.

Hence, if you decide to make a go at cursing with full vigour, even the nation's army may be demolished in a trice!;)

Meaningless blah blah. Do not deserve a reply.

But the right to posters in this forum so far did not include exhibition of such pyrotechnic brilliance!;) and used to be promptly erased out of record (read, "edited out"). I don't know whether Shri Praveen has since changed the forum rules,as a special case, in order to accommodate you as a member.

I do understand your condition. Your repeated pleas to someone to come to your help. If only you had the power you would have perhaps opened your third eye and converted me into just ashes. Obviously Praveen has a mind of his own. LOL.

May be due to the culture-altered genetics thru millennia of lineage theory (Robert Boyd), you seem to take an obsessive delight in wading in gutter, besides sinking deep into its depths, called "archives". My best wishes to you for a permanent life in "gutter"!

When did you understand the theory of Boyd. I thought you are still reading it. Last time when you talked about it you were asking some one to explain what it is all about. And this new theory of yours is quite funny - that every thing in the archives here is gutter. You may be certain about whatever you have written so far. Others may take objection if you condemn their contribution. Thanks. I do not intend to reply to you any more.
 
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Tigers do not fight in mud holes, but pigs do.
To see two stalwarts go at each other is shameful.
Please the mud is splashing all over the beautiful rug of TAMILBRAHMINS.
TRUCE TRUCE TRUCE
 
Tigers do not fight in mud holes, but pigs do.
To see two stalwarts go at each other is shameful.
Please the mud is splashing all over the beautiful rug of TAMILBRAHMINS.
TRUCE TRUCE TRUCE

Sri Prasad,

Although your intention is noble the similie used leaves me gasping.
 
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