Dravidian Nationalism and caste reservation

[sdharma]

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Dear Hari Grretings!

I must really thank you and Anand for giving me the opportunity to delve into the recent history of brahmin ascendancy during British colonial Tamilnadu. Neither brahmins nor the upper caste NBs come out smelling good. There is a quite a lot of scholarship available in the literature, but unfortunately, much of it is available only in only in subscription databases accessible only to academics like me. I refer you to particularly incisive analasys Pamela G. Price,

"Ideology and Ethnicity under British Imperial Rule: 'Brahmans', Lawyers and Kin-Caste Rules in Madras Presidency," Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 23, No. 1 (1989), pp. 151-177
​

The similarities you cite between Shiv Sena and DMK is not unique to these parties alone, look at Indira Gandhi's congress. Not only that, even in the veritable city on a hill, the family connection and getting elected to the US congress is very high. I can cite some studies to support his if you want.

Leaving this aside, the non-Tamils have never been made to feel unwelcome in Tamilnadu, you have to give them that.


This may have been true during the hoary days of ram rajya, but Lord Ram did not condone such practices at all in the name of Dharma for he is Dharmo Vighrahavan.

Today, the inter-caste marriages take place between girls and boys of common interests and culture. It is not as though a toilet cleaning dalit is getting married to an Ahmadabad MBA. I don't think Savita had to make a whole lot of adjustment with Bhimrao for their marriage to work.

Here is an example when you make me smile. We are probably splitting hair with this, but what the heck, let us do it, it is fun. You know when a brahmin passes in this sense, he/she is no longer brahmin, the triumph is for humanity because the brahmin orthodoxy will condemn it.

Jamadagnya may be an outlier, I don't doubt that, but I was only talking about the resonance he got here in this forum.

I condemn supremacist feelings wherever they lurk. I know that upper caste Christian converts treat dalit converts badly. I refer you to a somewhat autobiographical novel called karukku by a dalit novelist Bama for a particularly poignant account of this. Same with the Muslim Umma, for all their brotherhood, some are more equal than others. But, all of this do not take away our responsibility.

You have done it again, your razor-sharp analogy and wit makes me smile with agreement. Yes, indeed there is no unitary structure among Hindus. But this is the case with Protestants in general and Muslims as well - no central authority.

Yes, most Brahmins don't think of Manu in their daily lives. it is as relevant to their lives as the fleas on a street dog. But, for a dalit slowly coming out of centuries of illiteracy, becoming cognizant of the oppression their forefathers suffered for countless generations, Manu stands as the symbol of their suffering and Brahmins the defender of that system. It is unfair to ask them to appreciate the finer differences between the urban brahmin who wants to celebrate their brahmin culture without the burden of its ugly aspects and the orthodoxy for whom there is nothing ugly in it.


I gave this only as an example for the fact that caste still rules, even in cities. Further, the fact that they all do it is hardly a reasonable justification for Brahmins to do it as well.


Yes I recognize this. This is why I made this statement with the caveat that it is not a reflection of Mumbai in general.

For what it is worth let me cite a few examples from my personal experience.

In 2005, I attended a major Sri vaishnava function in Bangalore. At that time I was particularly proud of the inclusive philosophy of Sri Vaishnavam. After the function was over and as we were driving back to Chennai, I asked the driver whether he received prasadam. He said, "No sir, they asked all the "shudras" to stand separately, so I came away."

Just a few weeks before this, in Sriperimbuthur, a lady was stopped from joining the congregation to partake in the midday meal. She was accused of not being a brahmin. She pleaded that she was one.

Several years earlier to this, in Sri Rangam, after food when my dad and I were about to wash our hands in a hand-pump water faucet, an orthodox young man admonished us saying, கண்டவன் தொடர பம்பப் போய் நீங்க ஏன் தொடரேள், and offered water from his சொம்பு.

These are my first hand experiences. With little effort I can come up with many more such instances.

So, are my observations outliers? May be, if you look at cosmopolitan cities, but for an average person, it is just par I think.

Caste, discrimination, role of brahmins is not a black and white clear cut issue. My wish is for each brahmin to think about this issue honestly and face up to our responsibility, whatever it may be.

Hari, we can talk more if you have the time and the inclination. I leave it up to you. But I did enjoy your wit and hope to see more of it.

Cheers!

I have just joined, and gone through few posts and I am surprised people like Nara are allowed to play fool in this exclusive tamil brahmin forum. Is this place just a hang out.

I few points for him..

1) Caste is a culture and unique to each. What is your problem.

2) You are making fun about Karma and Caste.. Are you an anti-hindu?

:rockon: :bathbaby: :deadhorse:

 

[RVR]

The title of the article has a comma right after 'brahmans'. The article talks about both TB and NB lawyers, and the relationship between TB lawyers and land owining rich upper caste NB. The article is an academic one without any hidden political agenda.

This is what is called cultural capital. This means even poor brahmins had access to education, had the opportunity to find patronage, can easily find powerful mentors, and succeed.

All of these were simply unavailable to all the caste for whom education and scholarship were denied either directly, as for dalits, or unavailable in a practical sense due to restricted occupations based on caste -- a dhobi is encouraged to be a dhobi, an ambattan encouraged to be an ambhattan. These people were encouraged to pursue their caste profession and discouraged to pursue scholarship.

When a few overcame all these obstacles and achieved scholastic success, they ended up in a system dominated by brahmins, unable to find mentors under whose wings they can thrive and succeed. This is one of the reasons for the formation of Justice Party. None of the founders of this party were OBC goons, but rich and powerful upper-caste NBs. For whatever reason, they managed to outfox the Brahmins by creating a divide that put Brahmins on one side and all the rest of the society on the other -- on their side called NB.

The TBs could have promoted a movement that divided the society between privileged and unprivileged, which would have drawn the dividng line differently, but they lost this battle long before any of us were even born.

Cheers!

No brahmin is getting any scholarship based on his birth even if he is poor. If at all he gets any scholarship, it is purely based on merit only. All the communities have opportunity to pursue education. If some community is not pursuing, it is not the fault of brahmins. Brahmins pursue education because they feel it is the only asset. Traditionally most of the brahmins never had physical wealth. If attempting to acquire education is considered `cultural capital', then there is nothing wrong in it. By acquiring education, brahmins are not depriving any other community. On the other hand, it is the other communities controlled political parties which are depriving brahmins of the attempt for higher education.

Question of mentor ship is just a statement without any valid proof. Personally as a business man, when I go for bank loans, it is the other way round. If the other side is occupied by a brahmin officer, he will put all sorts of questions and make my life miserable. (Brahmin bank officers here please excuse me).

Brahmins of the present generation are forced to look after their own interest rather than look for entire society interest. It is because they are driven to this stage by other communities. Brahmins in Tamilnadu feel suffocated and are leaving the state continuously. Already Brahmin population has come down from 4% to 3% now and it will go down further in the near future.

At the same time, we are definitely trying to help the society. Personally you may think that I am supporting TB community here. Since this forum is meant for TB community, we have to focus on TB community only here. Entire members of TB community who have migrated out of our village met recently and are evolving a mechanism to develop our native village. Against 65 TB houses which existed earlier, there are hardly 5 TB houses at present in our village.It only shows that our community members are concerned about others also.

Definitely we are not going to promote Dhobi or Barber children to pursue their traditional profession in our village.

All the best

 

[anandb]

These are livelihoods of people,nothing demeaning about the job that they do.We encourage 'arasiyal vadi' too to become or make his/her children 'arasiyal vadi' a high paying job!Constantly picking on Tambrahms is like,poking one's eyes and becoming blind.Sitting far far away from the mileu of life here,at best one Nara,can be described as 'arm chair critique' which adds no value addition to existance of us Tambrahms,imho.

nachi naga.

I agree. That was the original idea of the varna system. That each job one does is like a karmanushtanam and takes you to a step further in the spiritual ladder. There are plumbers, electricians and dhobis even in Western societies. The only difference between them and the Indian ones is the Western ones comes in a car to fix things. But then a car is a kind of necessity in the West. So are we back to square one then? The plight of the Western plumber is probably the same as the Indian one. But then Western countries do not have a population of a billion plus and the problems that come with a multi cultural society with a multitude of languages, bureaucracy, corruption and so on.

If I argue by Sri. Nara's logic then I will blame the Brahmins and the caste system for all the ills in India and let the people who govern the country off the hook. Is this what it is coming to? That the plight of the plumber being a plumber is not because of the economic policies of India or its ruling party but because of Manu, the Brahmins or the upper castes and the varna system. My worry is if an academician like Sri. Nara is going to think like this, god save the people sitting on the fringe and waiting to be swayed by political talks.

 

[RVR]

When we talk about barbers, I am reminded of actual happenings in our village.

Very long back (May be 50 years ), barbers from our village migrated to Singapore. They are all doing very well there and I use to meet them during their visit to our village almost 40 years back. They were all very happy and have also obtained citizenship.

Subsequent generation barbers migrated to Chennai & Gulf countries and were again very happy.

Some tailors from our village have migrated to gulf countries.

Both socially and economically all these people were very well off after migration. In fact our community members sold the houses in Agraharam to these people and the local economy also revived.

Like TB community migrating to other countries in search of better opportunities, skilled people from other communities have also migrated and benefited.

I think the famous quote திரை கடல் ஓடியும் திரவியம் தேடு
seems to be the best policy to get out of both economic as well as social problems.

All the best

 

[nachi naga]

re

I agree. That was the original idea of the varna system. That each job one does is like a karmanushtanam and takes you to a step further in the spiritual ladder. There are plumbers, electricians and dhobis even in Western societies. The only difference between them and the Indian ones is the Western ones comes in a car to fix things. But then a car is a kind of necessity in the West. So are we back to square one then? The plight of the Western plumber is probably the same as the Indian one. But then Western countries do not have a population of a billion plus and the problems that come with a multi cultural society with a multitude of languages, bureaucracy, corruption and so on.

Varna system today is called 'proffessionals' with whatever specialisation done.Today we do not segregate unlike in past in society.But conservatives still exist in all religions.Its not fair to compare westerners,as they are light years behind us in complex situations,be it populations,language,religious ethinic diversity,parliamentary representation..etc for all practical puposes,USA ,UK etc are caucasian (white people ) race dominated life.And they want it to be caucasian lead only,nobody can change societties that fast.

If I argue by Sri. Nara's logic then I will blame the Brahmins and the caste system for all the ills in India and let the people who govern the country off the hook. Is this what it is coming to? That the plight of the plumber being a plumber is not because of the economic policies of India or its ruling party but because of Manu, the Brahmins or the upper castes and the varna system. My worry is if an academician like Sri. Nara is going to think like this, god save the people sitting on the fringe and waiting to be swayed by political talks.

Anand,what one is in real life is not an subject of scrutiny nor can it be verified over internet,just because one has written his profession,to gain legitimacy of his/her views.In the forum,all are equal,and we love all of them.Academics have their own theories,and are the most impractical people,imo.All bookish knowledge virtually turns them to be book-worms,imho.

Sheer performance in work,brings in rewards.But deeper analysis has made me understand karma phalam is the lords control,that we can change by hard work,intelligence and dilligence.Fate is changeable by right thinking in action.

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

No brahmin is getting any scholarship based on his birth even if he is poor. If at all he gets any scholarship, it is purely based on merit only.

Definition of scholarship:

• The methods, discipline, and attainments of a scholar or scholars.
• Knowledge resulting from study and research in a particular field. See synonyms at knowledge.
• A grant of financial aid awarded to a student, as for the purpose of attending a college.

I did not use the word as in #3.

Thanks....

 

[Nara]

Dear Anand, greetings!

.... There are plumbers, electricians and dhobis even in Western societies. The only difference between them and the Indian ones is the Western ones comes in a car to fix things.

This is a strawman argument requiring no rebuttal, but since you ask, let me tell you, in the west there is no difference in dignity between blue and white-collar professions. Even a janitor who cleans toilets are greeted with respect and dignity, and in social setting will behave and be treated as equals.

Also, there has never been a requirement that a dhobi's children must also be dhobis only, or a carpenter's son a carpenter only.

If I argue by Sri. Nara's logic then I will blame the Brahmins and the caste system for all the ills in India and let the people who govern the country off the hook.

Anand, this is another strawman, you are caricaturing my position and shooting it down.

If this gives you pleasure go ahead and do it, but it only shows you are left with these kinds of tactics only, not a reasoned argument.

... Is this what it is coming to? That the plight of the plumber being a plumber is not because of the economic policies of India or its ruling party but because of Manu, the Brahmins or the upper castes and the varna system.

Dear Anand, please follow the sequence of exchanges -- RVR sir talked about brahmins in the past always moving into new emerging profession, like legal, medical, civil service. It is in this context that I mentioned the enormous advantages brahmins enjoyed due to the cultural capital that dohbis et al. did not have or were not permitted to have -- and this is a result of the varna system. If you can, argue this point, give me your best shot -- throwing strawman after strawman goes only to show paucity of persuasive arguments.

My worry is if an academician like Sri. Nara is going to think like this, god save the people sitting on the fringe and waiting to be swayed by political talks.

One more strawman... who said plumbers are undergoing any kind of plight? In India today, anyone with a marketable skill like plumbing and electrical work, etc. do quite well, thank you very much.

Anand, you can accuse me of bramin bashing, or say things that imply that my views are a result of getting swayed by politicians in spite of being an academician, you can do that. But it does not provide legitimate answers to any of the points I raise. If it feels good, go ahead and enjoy, I am glad to be of service. But, in the process you are revealing that the emperor has no clothes.

Thank you...

 

[anandb]

Shri. Nara,

Dear Anand, greetings!

This is a strawman argument requiring no rebuttal, but since you ask, let me tell you, in the west there is no difference in dignity between blue and white-collar professions. Even a janitor who cleans toilets are greeted with respect and dignity, and in social setting will behave and be treated as equals.

Also, there has never been a requirement that a dhobi's children must also be dhobis only, or a carpenter's son a carpenter only.

I agree in the West there is no difference in dignity. I further agree that there is a difference in dignity of professions in India. But my whole point is how this can be attributed to castes. May be it is to do with the economic backwardness of these professions. I wholly condemn the attitude of discrimination but I don't think it has to do with the caste of the person. I would say even if a brahmin is working as a plumber he would probably probably be discriminated against irrespective of the fact he is a brahmin. Unfortunately the rich, poor divide is even more deeply ingrained in the Indian mindset than the caste. The other point is if you say the caste system practices discrimination by saying the dhobi's son has to become a dhobi only there is no discrimination because the same caste system says that a brahmin cannot indulge in other occupations as well however lucrative they are financially.

A

nand, this is another strawman, you are caricaturing my position and shooting it down.

If this gives you pleasure go ahead and do it, but it only shows you are left with these kinds of tactics only, not a reasoned argument.

Honestly, I am not indulging in any caricaturing. not my intention. I feel I have explained my position numerous times so these are not just tactics.

Dear Anand, please follow the sequence of exchanges -- RVR sir talked about brahmins in the past always moving into new emerging profession, like legal, medical, civil service. It is in this context that I mentioned the enormous advantages brahmins enjoyed due to the cultural capital that dohbis et al. did not have or were not permitted to have -- and this is a result of the varna system. If you can, argue this point, give me your best shot -- throwing strawman after strawman goes only to show paucity of persuasive arguments.

Let me put it this way. I don't think the brahmins enjoyed any cultural capital. If this is the case every varna had its own set of advantages not just the brahmins. So why target the brahmins alone? If the varna system was alive today in its original form, the brahmins would be the poorest as they were not permitted by the shastras to keep wealth beyond their needs. Of course they did accumulate intellectual capital but so also the other varnas. They were also supposed to know the shastras. Apastamba says "If in doubt about the sastras, ask the women of the household or the Shudra". Those times were different and does not warrant any criticism. If you take the present times, who is preventing the dhobi from changing his profession or move up on the economic ladder. It has everything to do with affordability and not caste. So it becomes the task of the government primarily to provide that. Of course the individuals have to play their part as well. You look at millions of construction workers and maid servants in the Gulf who are not educated. Most of these people's children are receiving at least a basic education in India. The reason is their parents are able to afford sending them to school.

One more strawman... who said plumbers are undergoing any kind of plight? In India today, anyone with a marketable skill like plumbing and electrical work, etc. do quite well, thank you very much.

Anand, you can accuse me of bramin bashing, or say things that imply that my views are a result of getting swayed by politicians in spite of being an academician, you can do that. But it does not provide legitimate answers to any of the points I raise. If it feels good, go ahead and enjoy, I am glad to be of service. But, in the process you are revealing that the emperor has no clothes.

Thank you...

I don't indulge in accusations. I have answered to the best of my ability. It is up to you to see that. And I am requesting you to realise that generally there are a lot of reasons which cause a particular problem in a country like India. So all I am asking is to refrain from having a single point agenda of accusing the brahmins, caste and varna.

Thanks.

 

[pvraman]

DPNJ & Anand Ji,

Can we always compare with other countries esp US, considering the natural resources and population differences. In Indonesia, similar thing is there. A car driver & a office boy can smoke before the Boss. But thats all. They know very clearly their standing and without having to tell, they draw their lines. Our driver once took dinner in a 5 star hotel with his boss, but subsequently during next visits he declined, however we compelled. Definitely the there is no compulsion, a barber's son will become barber or Workmen's son will become workmen. When the salary is low, the majority of their next gen can pursue only similar jobs and life comforts. Thats what happening here. If only the people get similar salary like in US, i hope everybody will command respect in society.

The basic dignity comes after the money and status. There is no parallel in the charge of the US painter/hour and TN Painter per month needless to say the salary difference between the two workman for the same work in US & India.

In Indonesia too, when you make a wrong turn, the police will come and knock the door politely, and will salute and say "Sir, you have made a mistake...". In Chennai for such thing, they will start with a slap.



Cheers

 

[Nara]

Honestly, I am not indulging in any caricaturing. not my intention. I feel I have explained my position numerous times so these are not just tactics.

[....]

... So all I am asking is to refrain from having a single point agenda of accusing the brahmins, caste and varna.

Dear Anand, I have no doubt about your good intentions, otherwise, I would have avoided conversations with you a long time ago. But, when you talk about the person making an argument we get into ad hominem territory. Strawman arguments are logical fallacies, but one could use them in a tactical sense, but ad hominems add no value at all. I believe you when you say that is not your intent, but all the same, I think we can have more interesting conversations if we watch out for and avoid taking the arguments to a personal level.

Just a few observations:

I would say even if a brahmin is working as a plumber he would probably probably be discriminated against irrespective of the fact he is a brahmin.

I disagree with this. He may not get the same respect as a white-collar worker, but he will not face discrimination like the driver I mentioned in an earlier post.

I don't think the brahmins enjoyed any cultural capital. If this is the case every varna had its own set of advantages not just the brahmins.

Anand, when each varna/caste is restricted to a particular occupation they do get an advantages that come with that occupation. A carpenter gets to become very proficient in it and can excel in it. A peasant gets skills that go with peasantry and a toilet cleaner gets the skills needed for toilet cleaning, whatever advantage that can give him. But these are mere trivialities compared to the cultural capital that come with scholarship. The advantages derived from study and the "knowledge" of shashthras included the reigns of establishment power either directly or by proxy.

Dear Anand, the pure idealized varana dharma exists only in some books. Even the brahmincal history, as gleaned from the brahminical guru parampara hagiographies, show many rich brahmins and ones that wielded enormous power.

A system that separates people into groups can never be equal, can never be non-discriminatory. This is where we disagree Anand. I don't doubt for a minute you abhor discrimination. But that is just another form of ad hominem, a circumstantial ad hominem. You are a good person, but that has nothing to do with whether or not varna system is benign or not.

Finally, about single point agenda, (another ad hominem) I have already conceded I may be viewed as a one-trick pony. That is alright, why is it not acceptable for a person to be vocal on just a single issue?

Be that as it may, I think I have contributed in different ways including jothisham in the sense of determining amavasya, rahu kalam etc. These do not get the same attention because they are not controversial. Even in the caste issue, I try not to initiate an argument on it. I almost always respond to assertions. Take a couple of minutes and see the initaters of the threads on the issue of caste, and you will find that I have never initiated one, except perhaps Enge Sri Vaishnavam.

I don't know whether people genuinely don't understand, or just don't care to understand, but I am not bashing brahmins, for that you need to visit sites like Karuthu, TamilnaduTalk.com. Please do take a few minutes and look them over, then you will know what brahmin bashing really looks like.

I am only pleading with people here to take a fresh look at this issue. Why did people like EVR and CNA were able to find such spontaneous support? Even deeply theistic people admired these avid anti-theists. Why? I have read academic papers that suggest things like மானம், தன்மானம், and சுயமரியாதை. What do these words mean? EVR and CNA talked to them about their own innate self-worth independent of caste.

When EVR and CNA said why should you take your அங்க வஸ்த்ரம் and stand with folded hands and call a brahmin சாமி. These made a connection. These people did not buy all the messages of EVR and CNA. EVR did not have any patience for old Tamil glory, he wanted progress from all forms of superstition, including the delusional old Tamil glory. People did not buy that. But they eat it up when he talked about brahmin domination of the cultural, social, and economic space. Why? because it made sense to them, they had personal experiences that validated the thesis EVR and CNA were presenting -- they were not just swayed.

CNA had to water down the harsh rhetoric of EVR for political expediency. This was one of the reasons for their split. This shows that people were not blindly shepherded by the Dravidian politicians. The message of சுயமரியாதை is what made all BC, MBC, and Dalits to respect EVR and CNA. Brahmins push all these aside as just propaganda at their own peril.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Shri. Nara,

Dear Anand, I have no doubt about your good intentions, otherwise, I would have avoided conversations with you a long time ago. But, when you talk about the person making an argument we get into ad hominem territory. Strawman arguments are logical fallacies, but one could use them in a tactical sense, but ad hominems add no value at all. I believe you when you say that is not your intent, but all the same, I think we can have more interesting conversations if we watch out for and avoid taking the arguments to a personal level.

When it comes to an argument, it becomes very difficult to separate the arguments from the person. One argues what one believes in and does so passionately. So a certain amount of judgment becomes inevitable. As long as civility is not breached, I absolutely have no problems if you do make certain observations about me in the course of the arguments. That is inevitable as you would have formed an opinion about me. When you do make your observations about Brahmins or any other caste, isn't that personal in nature? You can say that Brahmin is generic but as one I can feel offended as well. I guess you are a bit sensitive so keep referring to these theories of "strawman" and "ad hominem". I know since I used this term "sensitive" you will again bring up the "ad hominem" theory. But sorry, using the term "sensitive" is not the same as "hating you or insulting you or using indecent language". But if you still feel offended, apologies.

Just a few observations:

I disagree with this. He may not get the same respect as a white-collar worker, but he will not face discrimination like the driver I mentioned in an earlier post.

You might disagree but the ground reality is different in India. In India discrimination on the basis of economic status is more than caste discrimination. An example would be a rich person irrespective of caste status is more likely to be let off for crimes than a poor person.

Anand, when each varna/caste is restricted to a particular occupation they do get an advantages that come with that occupation. A carpenter gets to become very proficient in it and can excel in it. A peasant gets skills that go with peasantry and a toilet cleaner gets the skills needed for toilet cleaning, whatever advantage that can give him. But these are mere trivialities compared to the cultural capital that come with scholarship. The advantages derived from study and the "knowledge" of shashthras included the reigns of establishment power either directly or by proxy.

Dear Anand, the pure idealized varana dharma exists only in some books. Even the brahmincal history, as gleaned from the brahminical guru parampara hagiographies, show many rich brahmins and ones that wielded enormous power.

You need to go deeper into the concept of varna system. To put it very simply, the whole idea of the ancients was god realization even through the occupation ones does. So when a shudra is born as such the job he does is not demeaning because when did with shraddha that is enough to take him a step closer to god. What you say about intellectual capital is probably true for this era because it is inherently built into the system that knowledge and education gives a minimum guarantee on someone's economic status. Meaning someone with a basic education will be economically better off than say a plumber with no education. My whole point which I keep stressing is the older varna system did not discriminate because knowledge through scriptures, valour, trade and public services were given equal importance because each was a tool for god-realization. You can call it "discriminative" if say the "brahmin" was allowed to do other's occupation while others were not allowed to do the brahmin's but that was not the case. There is also enough testimony by way of Western Indologists who acknowledge the superiority of Indian thought before it was overrun by the Mughal and Brit goons. If we go by your logic, a society riddled with the discriminative burden of caste ism could never have produced stalwarts in almost every field in a continuous manner. To clearly understand how these things functioned, you need to split history into pre-Mughal and post-Brit times and look at it. These days Knowledge is considered as power, yes (in fact this very thought is discriminatory) but in those hallowed times, knowledge was one more tool for god realization.

A system that separates people into groups can never be equal, can never be non-discriminatory. This is where we disagree Anand. I don't doubt for a minute you abhor discrimination. But that is just another form of ad hominem, a circumstantial ad hominem. You are a good person, but that has nothing to do with whether or not varna system is benign or not.

Depends wholly on the ultimate purpose of grouping. Today the purpose is materialism, success, achievement, being number One and so on. But that was not the purpose of the varna. Mr. Nara, just look at the continuation of philosophical thought in Indian History. I don't think any other civilization has produced such a continuous stream of philosophical thought and still existing in spite of two savagely alien civilizations ruling over us for 1000 years.

Finally, about single point agenda, (another ad hominem) I have already conceded I may be viewed as a one-trick pony. That is alright, why is it not acceptable for a person to be vocal on just a single issue?

Be that as it may, I think I have contributed in different ways including jothisham in the sense of determining amavasya, rahu kalam etc. These do not get the same attention because they are not controversial. Even in the caste issue, I try not to initiate an argument on it. I almost always respond to assertions. Take a couple of minutes and see the initaters of the threads on the issue of caste, and you will find that I have never initiated one, except perhaps Enge Sri Vaishnavam.

I think you need to take this in your stride and not become too sensitive about it. BTW, religion, god and caste are always sensitive subjects so it is natural they attract lot of traffic.

I don't know whether people genuinely don't understand, or just don't care to understand, but I am not bashing brahmins, for that you need to visit sites like Karuthu, TamilnaduTalk.com. Please do take a few minutes and look them over, then you will know what brahmin bashing really looks like.

Let me put it this way. I don't need to visit these sites and I really don't care. I cannot stand hate language. I say what I say because I think you have also not looked at both the sides objectively.

I am only pleading with people here to take a fresh look at this issue. Why did people like EVR and CNA were able to find such spontaneous support? Even deeply theistic people admired these avid anti-theists. Why? I have read academic papers that suggest things like மானம், தன்மானம், and சுயமரியாதை. What do these words mean? EVR and CNA talked to them about their own innate self-worth independent of caste.

When EVR and CNA said why should you take your அங்க வஸ்த்ரம் and stand with folded hands and call a brahmin சாமி. These made a connection. These people did not buy all the messages of EVR and CNA. EVR did not have any patience for old Tamil glory, he wanted progress from all forms of superstition, including the delusional old Tamil glory. People did not buy that. But they eat it up when he talked about brahmin domination of the cultural, social, and economic space. Why? because it made sense to them, they had personal experiences that validated the thesis EVR and CNA were presenting -- they were not just swayed.

CNA had to water down the harsh rhetoric of EVR for political expediency. This was one of the reasons for their split. This shows that people were not blindly shepherded by the Dravidian politicians. The message of சுயமரியாதை is what made all BC, MBC, and Dalits to respect EVR and CNA. Brahmins push all these aside as just propaganda at their own peril.

I don't know much about CNA so I am not qualified to comment. As for EVR, anyone who uses hate language, insults people and their intelligence is not a human being to me.

 

[Nara]

Dear brother Anand, Greetings!

..... But if you still feel offended, apologies.

I appreciate your readiness to apologize, but that was not at all necessary because I am not at all offended, but more importantly, you did not write anything that anyone can find offensive, not at all.

I think most serious arguments, unlike the ones that pass for debate in 24 hours cable news channels, require us to avoid logical fallacies, as much as possible. I don't mean to imply you resort to these tactics often, if you did, it would still not bother me -- in this respect I am a veritable எருமை மாடு as I mentioned earlier -- I would have been like a buffalo in rain.

But I like talking with you. That is why I made the request to avoid logical fallacies, they do not add value to the discussion.


Let me just make a couple of observations:

You think in the hoary days varna system served a good purpose, like burning karma and getting closer to god. That is what karma yoga of Srmat BG is. Karma yoga is not taking up an office job and doing with equanimity. Sri Krishna says it is better to do your own swadharma even badly, than to do anya dharma well. So, I do understand, only too well, that varnashrama dharma in theory is supposed to be for god realization.

But all this has only been theory, never practiced. Even during Sri Krishna's time this was not done -- there are examples of people taking up anya dharma when found convenient and beneficial.

Labeling criticism of brahmins as just hate speech and closing our ears is not a wise thing to do. Brahmin intelligentsia must look at the facts, the reasons why in spite of so many castes and differences, the so called "brahmin bashing" resonates with almost all NBs. They must guide the so called community, aka caste, out of their collective ostrich-type behavior. But there is nobody out there doing it.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

The psychology of brahmin bashing reaps rewards,plain and simple.Works like a charm.No brahmin needs to give up his traditional values,in fact this tself should act as an unifying factor for us.By nature,we brahmins are proudy peacocks,and we effuse a sense of know it all kind of attitude.We also possess ceratin professional arrogance and that comes with the territory especially being Tamizh.Majority of us are humble,respectful,graceful with manners.I dont know how we are fairer than most dravidians,but then our gothrams forfathers are the cause of the gene,imho.

Caste is an identity for us.Its dumb to discard it nor wil we discard it.Unless untill application forms in India just mention nationality and state of origin.Caste is alive and kicking.Brahmins no reservation,we will survive,by god we will survive.

nachi naga.

 

[kunjuppu]

...........I dont know how we are fairer than most dravidians,but then our gothrams forfathers are the cause of the gene,imho....

.

enna nachi,

colour of skin ?

i have relatives whose colours range from black as charcoal to fair as kashmiri. once they open their mouths, they all sound the same, with the talalayam patois that is the trademark of us from palghat and beyond west.

re humbleness, i should disagree with you, only on the point of colour. those with 'fair' skin have a chip on their shoulders that they are somehow 'superior' to those of a darker hue. to the outside world we are all darkies. but within us TB, the concept of 'brahmana kaLai' is a strong myth that many of my relatives, and i presume, those fair skinned ones adhere to.

judging from the photos of the swayamvarams, and hearing through the private messages, about the economic status of those attendees, not many of them, in my view, are blessed with the so called brahmana kaLai. unfortunately, i think, it is these, who are the strongest adherents of the worst aspects of castes.

somehow, i think, economic status and colour of skin, appears to play a part in people's perception of themselves and castes.

i have found gounders,mudaliars, even the scavengers who used to clean the bucket toilet at my grandparents in the 1950s, fairer than the women in my household. so i tend to disagree, that fairer skin is a gift of the gothrams. more likely, is that some of our ancestor women were raped by the persian or central asian muslim invaders or were exchanged for favours from the portuguese. that would explain the fact for the select few of our community being fair skinned.

thank you.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sir

more likely, is that some of our ancestor women were raped by the persian or central asian muslim invaders or were exchanged for favours from the portuguese. that would explain the fact for the select few of our community being fair skinned.

.

The European travelers observations is that at that time of arrival there were different skins in India. So it reduces the exchange. As for as the Rape by muslims & percians are concerned, most of the things occured in North, to avoid that many were converted and like rajputs died. They were strong above Narmada River.

A black in cold countries without exposure to sun, within few centuries will turn Maaniram. A white under sun will get tanned and eventually will be black in few gens.

Is it not one of the reasons that the fair skin and dark skin is due to the prolonged exposure to sun and it is not the so called Arya Dravida stories?. While the workers in the field are invariably black because of the sun, our ancient professions does not require the same. So, we are various colours so does in other community too.

Regards

 

[nachi naga]

re

enna nachi,

colour of skin ?

i have relatives whose colours range from black as charcoal to fair as kashmiri. once they open their mouths, they all sound the same, with the talalayam patois that is the trademark of us from palghat and beyond west.

kunjuppu,palakkad girls are beauties with fair skins,at least in my associations with them,the grub makes me drool even now.

re humbleness, i should disagree with you, only on the point of colour. those with 'fair' skin have a chip on their shoulders that they are somehow 'superior' to those of a darker hue. to the outside world we are all darkies. but within us TB, the concept of 'brahmana kaLai' is a strong myth that many of my relatives, and i presume, those fair skinned ones adhere to.

generally we brahmins have good self esteem.that is why dravidians ridicule us and our ways and mock us.its not worked,we are diplomatic to the core.skin color does give one a sense of superiority,i agree.brahmanai kalai is intellect more than looks,i think.

judging from the photos of the swayamvarams, and hearing through the private messages, about the economic status of those attendees, not many of them, in my view, are blessed with the so called brahmana kaLai. unfortunately, i think, it is these, who are the strongest adherents of the worst aspects of castes.

kunjuppu,dunno abt it,as i am not involved so intimately.your word is good enough.caste is something,thats ingrained kunjuppu.our scriptures have explained the correct context,but various interpreters have screwed it big time.caste will not go away from our community,is my reading.

somehow, i think, economic status and colour of skin, appears to play a part in people's perception of themselves and castes.

i have found gounders,mudaliars, even the scavengers who used to clean the bucket toilet at my grandparents in the 1950s, fairer than the women in my household. so i tend to disagree, that fairer skin is a gift of the gothrams. more likely, is that some of our ancestor women were raped by the persian or central asian muslim invaders or were exchanged for favours from the portuguese. that would explain the fact for the select few of our community being fair skinned.

thank you.

agreed spot on.not sure about raping and all,but north indians suffered a lot compared to us southerners.south,iyengar folks are definitely more stately,fair,good looking folks compared to iyer men and women.dravidians have a penchant for iyengar women though,dunno the exact reason,maybe becoz they are more spirited than iyer women.caste is a identifying factor,and i have come to accept it,even though i personally view scriptural injunctions,differently.

nachi naga.

 

[nachi naga]

re

Dear Sir

.

The European travelers observations is that at that time of arrival there were different skins in India. So it reduces the exchange. As for as the Rape by muslims & percians are concerned, most of the things occured in North, to avoid that many were converted and like rajputs died. They were strong above Narmada River.

A black in cold countries without exposure to sun, within few centuries will turn Maaniram. A white under sun will get tanned and eventually will be black in few gens.

Is it not one of the reasons that the fair skin and dark skin is due to the prolonged exposure to sun and it is not the so called Arya Dravida stories?. While the workers in the field are invariably black because of the sun, our ancient professions does not require the same. So, we are various colours so does in other community too.

Regards

pvr,

scientifically you write.have to agree with you regarding color of the skin.imo,all of us are from africa and got migrated to entire world.most dravidians do look from people of african origin,and look so beautiful.karuppa irundalum lakshnamaga irukka,is my appreciation of dravidians.

govt of india has actively encouraged caste reservation policies,its better to accept it and move on to be successful materially and spiritually.tamizh nadu has slipped in making progress in industrial development,information technology,bio-medical sciences.in fact AP is leading in all fields from south,followed by karnataka,kerala and tn.

nachi naga.