Dummies guide about tamil Brahmins

[sarang]

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Aim of this topic is to look at tambrams in a way consistent with today’s conditions and practices.

An apt analogy for discussion is citizenship of a country, say USA. Anyone born in US automatically becomes a citizen of that country. A child born in a Brahmin family is a Brahmin.

Citizenship cannot be taken away by the authority (government), except in rare cases when the citizen acts against the interests of the country (becomes a spy for the enemy country and escapes). A brahmin’s varna cannot be stripped by the authority (state). Rajaraja chola, soon after becoming the king, confiscated the property of ravidasan (a brahmin) and his associates and drove them with all their families and relatives out of his kingdom, for their crime of killing karikalan, the crown prince.

Of course the citizen has the option to renounce citizenship voluntarily for his own reasons – disagreement with the establishment, loss of faith in the policy and philosophy of the state or even dislike for its leader. A Brahmin too can renounce his varna and embrace some other belief attracted by its philosophy, or girl or boy; or disgusted with the practices and traditions followed by his family or co Brahmins.

[to be continued]

 

[prasad1]

Who are you calling "Dummy"?
Good post, but keep in mind that we are practicing "brahminism" to different degree, and have our own definition of brahminism. There are people like Sage Viswamitra and others have attained higher knowledge even though they are not born brahmin.

 

[kunjuppu]

sarang,

i am reading ponniyin selvan, and yet to come to the regicide of adithya karikalan.

i looked up elsewhere about adithya karikalan, and the general impression, i got, was that his murder was unresolved. can you please cite your reference as to where it is stated, that ravidasan and his pandyan ஆபத்துதவிஸ் were judged as murderers, and if so, would they not have lost their lives in return.

sorry for the digression of the post, but this perked up my curiosity, as you can imagine. i am in part 3, of PS, and going at a leisurely enjoyable pace...

 

[sarang]

It is a highly discussed topic. There are epigraphical references, and the novel 'udayar' by balakumaran covers this in detail. Uttama cholan rules for about 10 years after sundara chola; after arulmozhi collects enough evidence, waits for sembian madevi to leave this world and then punishes the guilty ravidasan gang.

Who directly killed karikalan is a mystery, but the whole gang is punished; surprisingly, nobody is executed, but only desabrashtam.

sarang,

i am reading ponniyin selvan, and yet to come to the regicide of adithya karikalan.

i looked up elsewhere about adithya karikalan, and the general impression, i got, was that his murder was unresolved. can you please cite your reference as to where it is stated, that ravidasan and his pandyan ஆபத்துதவிஸ் were judged as murderers, and if so, would they not have lost their lives in return.

sorry for the digression of the post, but this perked up my curiosity, as you can imagine. i am in part 3, of PS, and going at a leisurely enjoyable pace...

 

[kunjuppu]

It is a highly discussed topic. There are epigraphical references, and the novel 'udayar' by balakumaran covers this in detail. Uttama cholan rules for about 10 years after sundara chola; after arulmozhi collects enough evidence, waits for sembian madevi to leave this world and then punishes the guilty ravidasan gang.

Who directly killed karikalan is a mystery, but the whole gang is punished; surprisingly, nobody is executed, but only desabrashtam.

thanks sarang. i am waiting to go further into the novel for all this...

 

[sarang]

I have grown up in the era of 'dummies guide' or the later 'idiots guide' self learning books. Though the early releases were on computer software and IT, they soon seamlessly spread to other general subjects. I did not dissect the titles. These books served as a quick introduction and helped in faster grasp of the fundamentals.

Thanks for pointing out 'practicing brahminism'; let us see how the topic develops. I will put (not pit) forward my views in a different way.

Who are you calling "Dummy"?
Good post, but keep in mind that we are practicing "brahminism" to different degree, and have our own definition of brahminism. There are people like Sage Viswamitra and others have attained higher knowledge even though they are not born brahmin.

 

[BostonSankara]

Namaste Sri Sarang,

Your question seems odd. In one case a citizen cannot be stripped of his citizenship and in the other a Brahmin is simply subject to his possessions being taken. At what point did Brahminism become a possession? In your question the Brahmin loses nothing but material things whereas your counterpoint is a fundamental aspect aka an identity and not a possession being denied. For God's own sake I ask why people have begun thinking of Brahminism as their own property?!?!

 

[BostonSankara]

... edited after reflection....

"have our own definition of brahminism"

So honor it and realize the question was regarding literature and not your pride.....

Winks to you!

Thanks,
Roman aka BostonShankar

 

[Brahmanyan]

I shall confine to myself in this topic. I am "Brahmin-Smartha", by birth. I do not know or
practice any thing as per the Varnasrama prescribed for a Brahmin. I have no indepth knowlege about my religion or practices and I still wander around to get answers for my spiritual queries. But, I enjoy all the celebratoins that happen around me in the name of religion, whether I have faith in it or not. I enjoy visiting Temples as well as other religious places.

My life in the Society is molded by the compulsions of the surrounding social customs and the law of the land in which I live.

All my life I strive my best to be a good human being. I honestly repent for any harm caused by me or because of me to others.

Well, If I am branded as dumb, I would be happy to be one.

Regards
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sarang]

2. An outsider, a citizen of another country can become a naturalised citizen (say of USA). The host country may extend invitation to some select individuals and families because of their special qualifications, contributions to the economy/ culture of the host, wealth generation and to fill gaps (skills, manpower, labour etc.) Some people on their own initiative get into the country for education or jobs and over a period are accepted as citizens. The inhabitants of the host country (USA) initially do not welcome the newbies because of differences in looks, attitudes, culture and language, but accept or tolerate them over a period.

There are instances of south Indian kings inviting Brahmins from other regions, giving them land, occupation and grants for settling down in their territory. At least some members of this group must have been well versed in vedas and sastras, but as a group, they brought with them language and culture valued by the king and used by his administration.

Is there a possibility of some becoming naturalised brahmins? Must have happened because whenever this discussion starts, many people quote instances from puranas and other sources. It is said that ramanujacharya converted many bhagavatas to Brahmin varna. Of course, venerated acharyas and gurus can influence their sishyas and make them accept such conversion and influx. If even a few acharyas start initiation into brahmin varna and lay down rules and conditions for this, those who have faith and want to join will benefit. There will be opposition from a section of entrenched brahmins, but this is to be expected. Immigration is opposed by a section of citizens (including naturalised ones), but this discord will eventually die down.

[to be continued]

 

[sarang]

I think you are referring to ravidasan episode. It brings out two interesting points. Brahmins, during chola days, were involved in activities other than the traditional six assigned duties. They were given lesser punishment, because, perhaps, they were not the prime culprits and some were serving as ministers to the king.

This property business is confusing - if I have inherited and earned assets, what is wrong in claiming that as my property?

Namaste Sri Sarang,

Your question seems odd. In one case a citizen cannot be stripped of his citizenship and in the other a Brahmin is simply subject to his possessions being taken. At what point did Brahminism become a possession? In your question the Brahmin loses nothing but material things whereas your counterpoint is a fundamental aspect aka an identity and not a possession being denied. For God's own sake I ask why people have begun thinking of Brahminism as their own property?!?!

 

[kunjuppu]

I think you are referring to ravidasan episode. It brings out two interesting points. Brahmins, during chola days, were involved in activities other than the traditional six assigned duties. They were given lesser punishment, because, perhaps, they were not the prime culprits and some were serving as ministers to the king.

This property business is confusing - if I have inherited and earned assets, what is wrong in claiming that as my property?

maybe, it is because, in kingdoms of absolute rule, the kings owned everything.

which is why, the victor usually confiscated the properties of the defeated, and distributed to his own folks.

which may give credence to many a claim, from our own pallars and chakliyans castes, that in the days of the tamil kingdoms, these people were the backbone of chola or pandyan armies, and on suffering defeats, went on a downhill re status and jobs..and which eventually stuck for the next millenium, to their abject state till recently.

just wondering out loud that is all..have been reading a lot of tamil blogs, and i cannot help, the uniform theme, of ancient glories, gone wrong. there must be some basis, as not all of it can be fiction or made up. i think so.

 

[Raghy]

sarang,

i am reading ponniyin selvan, and yet to come to the regicide of adithya karikalan.

i looked up elsewhere about adithya karikalan, and the general impression, i got, was that his murder was unresolved. can you please cite your reference as to where it is stated, that ravidasan and his pandyan ஆபத்துதவிஸ் were judged as murderers, and if so, would they not have lost their lives in return.

sorry for the digression of the post, but this perked up my curiosity, as you can imagine. i am in part 3, of PS, and going at a leisurely enjoyable pace...

Sri.Kunjuppu, Gretings.

I don't want to ruin your PS reading. Sri.Sarang is right. There is evidence for that. I am not posting the link now. It would ruin your reading.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

3. The first attack on a Brahmin is – you have relinquished your traditional profession and work as a doctor, engineer, x,y,z and so you are a hypocrite and not a Brahmin. A Brahmin is expected to do only these – learn and teach Vedas; perform yagna for self and others; receive and offer gifts.

Most of us can go back by 3 or 4 generations to find out what our ancestors did. Most of them were working as a teacher, temple priest, vaidya, civil servant, accountant, lawyer and were involved in almost all the professions that were available then. And the kings had Brahmins in their payroll as ministers, astrologers, advisers, accountants, and even as strategists. Chanakya was not running a gurukulam or teaching Vedas in gupta times. Anbil aniruddha brahmarayr was the minister for sundara chola and his son, for rajaraja chola. The kings, chera, chola and pandya, gave grants for all communities (not to Brahmins alone) for doing specific jobs. So it is a myth and fallacy to say that Brahmins lived only on charity or were engaged in only the six professions.

As a grahasta, a Brahmin has to support his family (wife and children), and support others who cannot support themselves (brahmacharis, sanyasis, and immediate society members). All this is possible only if some Brahmins had a vocation and earned. He has to perform samskaras which needed income; has to get his son or daughter married (who got dowrie – boy or girl is immaterial).

So, don’t fall for the argument that you cease to be a Brahmin because you work.

 

[prasad1]

My question is that my parents migrated out of Tamil Nadu many years ago. I do not know how much Brahman I am? What I know about our tradition is through them and other family members. So the traditions I know is dated compared to what is prevalent in TN. We also incorporated some north Indian traditions. My mother was very progressive, she used to attend the Arya samaj Havans. Which was viewed by other orthodox TB as a little too progressive. So I have some modified culture. Then i came to England, so again my culture was modified. I took some easy way out and stopped doing daily "kriyas".
We are still Vegetarian and visit Temple etc, but can not read Tamil, So I feel I am less than 100% TB (what ever that means).

 

[BostonSankara]

Prasad, you seem highly intelligent and I imagine you would have little to no problem at all learning the alphabet.

Welcome To Tamil Virtual University - Learn Tamil by prof. T.B. Siddalingaiah

These are great videos for that purpose if you ever choose to learn.

 

[prasad1]

The other side:
We have a very "orthodox" brahmin, with sanga chakra branded in his arm, and big Namam on his forehead. He drinks alcohol and in parties seen him eat meat dishes.
When I bring up his habits, he claims that he has done some yagnam and it gives him right to his life style but also allows him to be Brahmin. This was news to me and to the majority in the community.

 

[sarang]

May be a punk vaishnavite. If possible ask him, what is that 'some yagnam' and the pramanam (rule, proof). If he belongs to a combinatory kalamuga- vaishnava sect or something like that who have laid down their own conditions, he may so claim; otherwise he is a 'pashandi', deluding himself and others.

The other side:
We have a very "orthodox" brahmin, with sanga chakra branded in his arm, and big Namam on his forehead. He drinks alcohol and in parties seen him eat meat dishes.
When I bring up his habits, he claims that he has done some yagnam and it gives him right to his life style but also allows him to be Brahmin. This was news to me and to the majority in the community.

 

[sarang]

There are some core values (traditions) and many peripheral values. The latter are to a great extent dependent on your current guru, place you live, people around you and local customs. For example, there are many differences between iyengars - vadakalai, thenkalai, mandyam, hebbar and the list goes on. Even with my parents, there were differences on many occasions as father's side and mother's side followed different practices. "engathu vazhakkam' was a very common phrase.

Regarding language, many kannada and andhra vaishnavites read tamil works published in kannada or telugu script. My daughter, who had her early education in UK cannot read tamil script, though she is quiet fluent in talking. When she has to interview in tamil, she writes her questions in english alphabet. Her new year resolution every year is to learn tamil script; but like most new year resolutions, they are transferred to next year.

Giving a percentage is better left to the individuals; many ratios can be thought of; mine to ideal1, mine to ideal2 or mine to my maximum.

As long as the desire/ wish is not like what is below?

Q: How is your company's performance?
A: Worse then last year, but better than next year.

My question is that my parents migrated out of Tamil Nadu many years ago. I do not know how much Brahman I am? What I know about our tradition is through them and other family members. So the traditions I know is dated compared to what is prevalent in TN. We also incorporated some north Indian traditions. My mother was very progressive, she used to attend the Arya samaj Havans. Which was viewed by other orthodox TB as a little too progressive. So I have some modified culture. Then i came to England, so again my culture was modified. I took some easy way out and stopped doing daily "kriyas".
We are still Vegetarian and visit Temple etc, but can not read Tamil, So I feel I am less than 100% TB (what ever that means).

 

[sarang]

Thanks. This link will help many.

Prasad, you seem highly intelligent and I imagine you would have little to no problem at all learning the alphabet.

Welcome To Tamil Virtual University - Learn Tamil by prof. T.B. Siddalingaiah

These are great videos for that purpose if you ever choose to learn.

 

[sarang]

So the pallar/ chakkiliyar caste has entered the discussion.

Tamil literature talks of only 'pulaiyar', and "keezhore'. These are general terms and do not refer to any particular caste, I believe. The british have a lot to answer for designating and degrading some castes.

Only maravars took part in battles and majority of the population like farmers, traders, brahmins, skilled professionals, (that means kulas, communities) did not directly participate.

The theory that pallars and chakkilyars are abjectly poor today, because cholas and other tamil kings lost is very interesting. Implies that brahmins are not responsible for this. Was there any brahmin tamil king?

maybe, it is because, in kingdoms of absolute rule, the kings owned everything.

which is why, the victor usually confiscated the properties of the defeated, and distributed to his own folks.

which may give credence to many a claim, from our own pallars and chakliyans castes, that in the days of the tamil kingdoms, these people were the backbone of chola or pandyan armies, and on suffering defeats, went on a downhill re status and jobs..and which eventually stuck for the next millenium, to their abject state till recently.

just wondering out loud that is all..have been reading a lot of tamil blogs, and i cannot help, the uniform theme, of ancient glories, gone wrong. there must be some basis, as not all of it can be fiction or made up. i think so.