Etymology of "Varna"

[eXe]

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The word Varna is used a lot in Hindu scripture, and most Hindus today understand it to be "occupation" or synonymous with the caste system.

But where does the word really come from?

Turns out, Varna is Persian for Color. Did the invading Iranians (Aryans) simply concoct Hinduism in order to subdue the Dravidans and other native races? So that the fair skinned may be at the top of the social ladder? It makes complete sense when you consider that Hinduism places so much emphasis on future lives, an unprovable concept, but an invaluable tool in keeping a suppressed group from revolting.

 

[renuka]

Invading Aryans are now Iranians?

This is new.

What next ?Were they Shia?

 

[eXe]

Invading Aryans are now Iranians?

This is new.

What next ?Were they Shia?

They couldn't have been because Mr. Mohammed had his cavebound conversation with the angel Gabriel, and consequently invented Islam, only in 610 AD.

If the timeline of ~2400BC for the advent of Vedic civilization is accurate, then the invading Persians would have been part of the Jiroft civilization.

 

[eXe]

Also Islam didn't reach Persia until almost half a century after it's invention... it did only in in ~650 AD, when the marauding milita led by Abu Bakr and Umar (who would later be known as the Shia) waged battle with the Sassanian empire.

 

[vikrama]

Sanskrit and Persian language have some common words. The Persian Zend Avesta is almost similar to Rig Veda. So the historians concluded that a section of the immigrants stayed on their way in Persia and others moved on to Indus Valley.

Coming to varna, it denotes colour in Sanskrit also. It comes from the root 'vr' to cover. That which covers is varna. A colour coating, clothing or any other thing that covers the object is varna.

Varna as a classification of people is not a Rig Vedic concept. Probably it is not found in Zend Avesta also. It belongs to a later day.

Of course there is a lone mention of the four classes of people- Brahmins, Rajanya, Vaisya and Sudra in the tenth Mandala of the Rig Veda. There also the word varna is not used.

The whole of the 10th Mandala is considered as an interpolation of later days. There are many reasons substantiating this view.

The Varna classification should have originated after the Vedic period.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

The word Varna is used a lot in Hindu scripture, and most Hindus today understand it to be "occupation" or synonymous with the caste system.

But where does the word really come from?

Turns out, Varna is Persian for Color. Did the invading Iranians (Aryans) simply concoct Hinduism in order to subdue the Dravidans and other native races? So that the fair skinned may be at the top of the social ladder? It makes complete sense when you consider that Hinduism places so much emphasis on future lives, an unprovable concept, but an invaluable tool in keeping a suppressed group from revolting.

"Turns out, Varna is Persian for Color"? Any evidence for this persian origin? Sounds more like a கிறித்துவ சாமியார் கிளப்பிய புருடா

Even according to Encyclopedia Britannica,varna (Hinduism) -- Encyclopedia Britannica varna, is Sanskrit, any one of the four traditional social classes of India.

Although the literal meaning of the word varna (Sanskrit: “colour”) once invited speculation that class distinctions were originally based on skin pigmentation between an alleged group of lighter-skinned invaders and the darker indigenous people of ancient India, this theory has been discredited since the mid-20th century. The notion of “colour” was most likely a device of classification. Colours were frequently used as classifiers; e.g., the Yajurveda is divided into two groups of texts, White and Black.

 

[eXe]

"Turns out, Varna is Persian for Color"? Any evidence for this persian origin? Sounds more like a கிறித்துவ சாமியார் கிளப்பிய புருடா

Even according to Encyclopedia Britannica,varna (Hinduism) -- Encyclopedia Britannica varna, is Sanskrit, any one of the four traditional social classes of India.

Although the literal meaning of the word varna (Sanskrit: “colour”) once invited speculation that class distinctions were originally based on skin pigmentation between an alleged group of lighter-skinned invaders and the darker indigenous people of ancient India, this theory has been discredited since the mid-20th century. The notion of “colour” was most likely a device of classification. Colours were frequently used as classifiers; e.g., the Yajurveda is divided into two groups of texts, White and Black.

Yes, please read my next post.

Furthermore, do take into account Persia's proximity to Afghanistan and ergo, the Indian subcontinent.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Coming to varna, it denotes colour in Sanskrit also. It comes from the root 'vr' to cover. That which covers is varna. A colour coating, clothing or any other thing that covers the object is varna.

I am not an expert on Sanskrit like Vikrama Sir but I know some people have argued that the root word for varna is 'vri' which carries the meaning of "choice". Hence it can be reasoned the varna classification at the time of its origin is done based on one's own inclination. This lines up with some of our scriptures that talk about guna based varnas.

 

[tks]

Opening post #1 is either out of misinformation or out of intent to do mischief in my view. Regardless it has no merit.

Varna is NOT caste - the later has issues of 'suppressed groups' etc. There are no Varna grouping today.

In the end who cares what the root word is .. it is irrelevant today.

Let us view ourselves as Indians - either living in India as citizens or in other countries with ancestral origin in India as PIO. Let us view ourselves as Indians regardless of our religion or caste .

 

[vikrama]

[QUOTE some people have argued that the root word for varna is 'vri' which carries the meaning of "choice". .[/QUOTE]
Dear Sri Kalabhairavan,
The actual dhatu is वृ which is written as vR in MW dictionary. Some write it as vri.
Yes it has two sets of meanings, cover and choose. Both are given herunder. When we mean colour, we take the first meaning. When we mean choice we take the second.

The four fold classification of people based on occupation can be, as you say, out of their own choice. It is also possible that it referred to the clothes and the people wore different clothing for different occupations.

It is certain that this does not refer to the skin colour. There were not four distinctly different colours of skin in India nor can we find them now.

varNa

m. (or n. g. %{ardharcA7di} , prob. fr. 1. %{vR} ; ifc. f. %{A}) a covering , cloak , mantle L. ; a cover , lid Ya1jn5. iii , 99 ; outward appearance , exterior , form , figure , shape , colour RV. &c. &c. ; colour of the face , (esp.) good colour or complexion , lustre , beauty Mn. MBh. &c. ; colour , tint , dye , pigment (for painting or writing) MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; colour = race , species , kind , sort , character , nature , quality , property (applied to persons and things) RV. &c. &c. ; class of men , tribe , order , caste (prob. from contrast of colour between the dark aboriginal tribes and their fair conquerors ; in RV. esp. applied to the A1ryas and the Da1sas ; but more properly applicable to the four principal classes described in Manu's code , viz. Bra1hmans , Kshatriyas , Vais3yas , and Su1dras ; the more modern word for `" caste "' being ja1ti ; cf. IW. 210 n. 1) ib. ; a letter , sound , vowel , syllable , word Br. Pra1t. &c. ; a musical sound or note (also applied to the voice of animals) MBh. R. Pan5cat. ; the order or arrangement of a song or poem W. ; praise , commendation , renown , glory Mr2icch. Kum. Ra1jat. ; (in alg.) an unknown magnitude or quantity ; (in arithm.) the figure , `" one "' ; (accord. to some) a co-efficient ; a kind of measure L. (cf. %{-tAla}) ; gold L. ; a religious observance L. ; one who wards off , expeller Sa1y. on RV. i , 104 , 2 ; (%{A}) f. Cajanus Indicus L. ; n. saffron L. [Cf. accord. to some , Slav. {vranu8} , `" black "' , `" a crow "' ; Lith. {vA7rnas} , `" a crow. "'] 1VR 1 cl. 5. 9. 1. P. A1. (Dha1tup. xxvii , 8 ; xxxi , 16 , 20 ; xxxiv , 8) %{vRNo4ti} , %{vRNute4} ; %{vRnAti} , %{vriNIte} ; %{va4rati} , %{va4rate} (mostly cl. 5 and with the prep. %{apa} or %{vi} ; of cl. 9. only %{avRNIdhvam} AV. vi , 7 , 3 ; cl. 1. only in RV. [cf. also %{UrNu}] ; pf. %{vavA4ra} , %{vavre4} RV. &c. &c. [2. sg. %{vava4rtha} RV. ; %{vavaritha} , %{vavRma} &c. Gr. ; p. %{vavriva4s} gen. %{vavavru4Sas} RV.] ; aor. %{a4var} or %{A4var} , %{avRta} RV. [1. sg. %{vam} , 2. du. %{vartam} , 3. pl. %{avran} , p. A1. %{vrANa4} q.v. Impv. %{vRdhi} ib.] ; %{avArIt} Br. ; %{avarI8STa} Gr. ; Subj. %{varSathas} RV. ; Pot. %{vriyAt} , %{vUryAt} , %{variSISTa} Gr. ; fut. %{varI8tA} , %{varI8Syati} ib. [1007,2] ; inf. %{vartum} MBh. , %{varitum} Bhat2t2. , %{varItum} Sa1h. ; ind. p. %{vRtvA4} RV. AV. Br. ; %{vRlvI4} RV. ; %{vRtvA4ya} Br. ; %{-vR4tya} AV.) , to cover , screen , veil , conceal , hide , surround , obstruct RV. &c. &c. ; to close (a door) AitBr. ; to ward off , check , keep back , prevent , hinder , restrain RV. AV. Bhat2t2.: Pass. %{vriyate} (aor. %{a4vAri}) , to be covered or surrounded or obstructed or hindered RV. MBh.: Caus. %{vAra4yati} , %{-te} (aor. %{avIvarat} , %{a4vIvarata} AV. ; %{a4vAvarIt} RV. ; Pass. %{vAryate} MBh. &c.) , to cover , conceal , hide , keep back , hold captive RV. &c. &c. ; to stop , check , restrain , suppress , hinder , prevent from (abl. or inf. ; rarely two acc.) MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; to exclude Siddh. ; to prohibit , forbid MBh. ; to withhold R. Katha1s. &c.: Desid. of Caus. %{vivArayiSate} Br.: Desid. %{vivarI8Sati} , %{vuvUrSati} , %{-te} Gr.: Intens. %{vevrIyate} , %{vovUryate} , %{varvarti} ib. [Cf. Goth. {warjan} ; Germ. {wehren} , {Wehr} ; Eng. {weir}.] [TD="align: right"]2

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[/TD]

vR

2 cl. 5. 9. P. A1. (Dha1tup. xxvii , 8 ; xxxi , 16 , 20) %{vRNoti} , %{vRNute} ; %{vRNA4ti} , (mostly) %{vRNIte4} (in RV. also %{va4ras} , %{-rat} , %{-ranta} , but these may be Subj. aor. ; pf. %{vavAra} Bhat2t2. ; %{vavre} RV. [2. sg. %{vavRSe4} , 1. pl. %{vavRma4he}] &c. &c. ; aor. %{avri} , %{avRta} RV. [Pot. %{vurIta} , p. %{urANa4}] &c. &c. ; %{avRSi} , %{-Sata} AV. Br. [2. pl. %{avRDhvam}] Up. ; %{avarI8STa} Gr. ; Prec. %{variSISTa} ib. ; fut. %{varI8tA} ib. ; %{variSyate} Br. ; %{varISyate} Gr. ; inf. %{varItum} Bhat2t2. Ra1jat. ; %{varitum} Gr. ; ind. p. %{varitvA} or %{vRtvA} Gr2S3rS. &c. ; %{varItvA} Gr.) , to choose , select , choose for one's self , choose as (%{-arthe} or acc. of pers.) or for (%{-artham} or dat. , loc. instr. of thing) RV. &c. &c. ; to choose in marriage , woo MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; to ask a person (acc.) for (acc.) or on behalf of (%{kRte}) R. Katha1s. ; to solicit anything (acc.) from (abl. or %{-tas}) , Kav. Pur. ; to ask or request that (Pot. with or without %{iti}) R. MBh. ; to like better than , prefer to (abl. , rarely instr.) RV. AitBr. MBh. R. ; to like , love (as opp. to `" hate "') MBh. v , 4149 ; to choose or pick out a person (for a boon) , grant (a boon) to (acc.) Ra1jat. iii , 421: Caus. (Dha1tup. xxxv , 2) %{varayati} , %{-te} (ep. also %{vArayati} ; Pass. %{varya4te} Br.) ; to choose , choose for one's self , choose as (acc. of pers.) or for (%{-artham} dat. or loc. of thing) , ask or sue for (acc.) or on behalf of (dat. or %{-arthe}) , choose as a wife (acc. with or without %{patnIm} , %{dArAn} , or %{patny-artham}) Br. MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; to like , love well R. [Cf. Lat. {velle} ; Slav. {voliti} ; Got. {wiljian} ; Germ. {wollan} , {wollen} , {Wahl} , {wohl} ; Angl. Sax. {willan} ; Eng. {will}.] [TD="align: right"]

[/TD]

[/TD]

 

[sarang]

Varna classification has or had nothing to do with nationality or domicility. There are brummies,and celts, madrasis, bongs or hundred other groupings one is born in or acquired depending on many factors. In the case of nationality too, it is said that one can never forgo his birth nationality (italy, it is bandied about) even if one takes another nationality; or break with the birth country and don new avatar.

So nationality and varna are not mutually exclusive; one can practice his varna dharma wherever he is, in personal life, adapted to time and place. Our forefathers have done this, so we can, at least those who are so inclined. Where is the conflict?

One must follow what he believes in, has faith in the wisdom of his parents and forefathers, and is respectful of the injunctions. It is the responsibility of the parents to inform and educate their children on the traditions and practices; the next generation has the freedom to do do what it wants. A few do more than their parents, a few veer of in a totally different direction. So what?

Opening post #1 is either out of misinformation or out of intent to do mischief in my view. Regardless it has no merit.

Varna is NOT caste - the later has issues of 'suppressed groups' etc. There are no Varna grouping today.

In the end who cares what the root word is .. it is irrelevant today.

Let us view ourselves as Indians - either living in India as citizens or in other countries with ancestral origin in India as PIO. Let us view ourselves as Indians regardless of our religion or caste .

 

[prasad1]

It is utter nonsense to keep on saying that we must defer to the wisdom of our forefathers. I respect them but they lived in different era, their wisdom was suitable to the time they lived. We live in this era, and we have to acquire wisdom for this era. Our wisdom may be of no use to our children. Let us grow up, and live in the present. The dead corps of our history is ok for recollection, but to carry it everyday is not healthy. Even shiva had to give up the Sati's body to move on. So instead of having a meaningful dialog, just to throw "wisdom of Forefathers" is useless.
Like tksji says:

Let us view ourselves as Indians - either living in India as citizens or in other countries with ancestral origin in India as PIO. Let us view ourselves as Indians regardless of our religion or caste .

 

[eXe]

"Turns out, Varna is Persian for Color"? Any evidence for this persian origin? Sounds more like a கிறித்துவ சாமியார் கிளப்பிய புருடா

Even according to Encyclopedia Britannica,varna (Hinduism) -- Encyclopedia Britannica varna, is Sanskrit, any one of the four traditional social classes of India.

Although the literal meaning of the word varna (Sanskrit: “colour”) once invited speculation that class distinctions were originally based on skin pigmentation between an alleged group of lighter-skinned invaders and the darker indigenous people of ancient India, this theory has been discredited since the mid-20th century. The notion of “colour” was most likely a device of classification. Colours were frequently used as classifiers; e.g., the Yajurveda is divided into two groups of texts, White and Black.

Yes, it has been chronicled by Al Biruni who traveled through India the 11th century, learned Sanskrit and was among the first Indologists.

An excerpt of his work can be read on here.

 

[vignesh2014]

Varna is not skin color, it is by choice O.K., Then how come there are only 4 main races...Asian (Brown In color), Westerners (Red or White), Chinese (Yellow) and Africans (Black)..After the mix up of these races we have got different shades of brown and black in India. Therefore the classification of four varnas when it came after the mix up according to Guna and Karma and slowly degenerated into many castes due to different , different occupations generation after generation new occupations coming up from their ancestors and slowly it became a rigid system. I'm not here to substantiate racial superiorty but gene mix up definitely happened between 4 races and therefore if we have to give a natural way of living to people through their ancestral intelligence, Gene mapping is the way through which natural and native talents can be identified.

 

[thiruchitrambalam]

I remember a incident, while travelling in a mtc bus, a girl boarded the bus and asked for santhaMUNI bus stop, The conductor was amused there is no such stop, And after some to & fro conversation, It turned out that she intended for santhome church, Not to forget kabaliswarar temple was at that particular sport before it was pulled down by christian invasion, And more comical is during tsunami the (velilankanni amman temple) christined as velankanni church was washed off with some thousands of people, the articule did not say anything at all about it, It highlighted that some western missionary put a stick on the sand and told that sea should stop here itself and should not enter, and the paper was published by THE HINDU, Just see how the gullible are being converted,
we indians are pouring petrol on our own heads and ligting it.

This thread is a classic example ,.....

Our ancestors are not ordinary people, they forsaw everything and gave us the most precious of all the world, the vedhas, It is always better to catch their hands and walk in our lifes, and not get lost in these foreign missionaries.