Extinction of Charavakas line...

[C RAVI]

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Dear Sir,

Agreed with everything you wrote but one thing I admire about Charvaka Philosophy is the honesty.

I feel the average human who says he believes in God is actually leading a life along the lines of Charvaka philosophy.. that is everyone craves material and sensual enjoyment but tries to deny it and at the same time needs God to just make himself/herself feel better and holy and also an opportunist to benefit from God in someway or the other.

After all show me a person who prays only for the sake of God??

Everyone has a vested interest in their dealings with God that too in a transaction manner.

So that way I admire Charvaka Philosophy..they have the balls to stand up on their own..lead life using the senses without harming anyone and are not opportunist parasites that try to live off the Mahima of God.

Everyone having vested interest in their dealings with God to achieve what they want for their peaceful and contented life with in the frame work of human living, while living a mundane life is nothing wrong and can not be compared with the craziest desires of the humans to live like animals (to mean living without any norms, discipline etc in a society) without any ethic, morality, shame and sympathy.

If there is no law & order in our society you can find hell lots of humans having balls to do whatever they want..LOL!!! Having balls to do whatever one feels to do, unmindful of morality, ethics, shame, discipline, compassion etc..etc.. can not be considered great and ideal living of humans in this world.

 

[renuka]

Referring to the highlighted part, in your post above -

Do you include Puttaparthi Sathya Sai Baba too in your list of Gurus whom you doubt if they actually know anything at all to start with? Or do you have special consideration for Sathya Sai Baba and have the impression and under delusion that the whole world consider him as true Guru/Godman?


to the rest of your post -

Philosophies that encourages to look into big picture and compose oneself to go through the ocean of Life & Death on an elevated scale are what that human kind needs to evolve for better with ethics, morality and spirituality. Such philosophies gives more importance (as possible) to selflessness while living the mundane life of "I" and "Mine". It teaches not to go astray, crazy, wild and crude in the name of self happiness, ruining one self by such self practices-by inducing others to get into their fold with such ideas and ruin them-by attempting to make their concept universal by hook or crook etc..etc.

Dharma Shastras/vedas does not profess "not to live" a mundane life in the present and dwell in hills and forest in isolation, to attain salvation quickly.

Oops I am very sorry yaar...I was not specific when I wrote that.

When I meant Guru I meant Gurus that do not allow questioning and those who want us to shut up and go along saying Yes Sir Yes Sir Three Bags full.

I dont see any reason why you need to drag in Sathya Sai Baba here when I did not name any guru in specific.

I have noted that this is a past time of some members here who try to answer me by dragging in Sathya Sai Baba here when I never named any Guru in specific to start with..this sort of behavior just shows lack of basis to answer anything....but anyway since you asked I will answer.

You see I wonder if you have read the works of Sathya Sai Baba.. all His works are in and Q and A format and He encourages anyone to questions Him.

In fact He can be very blunt at times by saying things that might make the most orthodox very uneasy.

Even Shiridi Sai Baba was also blunt and direct to the point..no nonsense..no superstition etc.

Nope I am not deluded..I admit my mistakes and do not play moral police and do not suffer from delusion of grandeur or delusion of persecution.

Ok now..back to topic..

You see in this world..everyone is leading a materialistic life..dont give me the cock and bull that each one here in this Forum is leading a life sans material etc..just admit it yaar..each one is out for some gain in life..some want money..some want status..some want a bride badly(LOL)...


I am not saying its wrong to desire something but at least be honest enough to admit that most of us are Charvakians that lean on God when ever we need a favor.

The problem is everyone thinks Charvakians are a wild wild group with some caveman desires without any control.

I wish I could paste here my Sanskrit lesson on Charvaka philosophy here where it explains well that it is an accepted and respected Philosophy and not to be misunderstood as lacking morals and promoting Adharma.
It comes under Nasthika Darshana.

The problem is everyone wants to deny truth and act holy that "No yaar..I am good..I dont believe in leading a wild wild materialistic life like a Charvakian..I believe in God Blah Blah Blah."

But in reality all this so called holy types would have given Sunny Leones website the maximum hits!LOL

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

There are certain activities which the 'world' shuns! Thiruvalluvar says,

'mazhiththalum neettalum vENdA ulagam
pazhiththadhu ozhiththu vidin'.

Meaning: There is no need of a shaven crown or of tangled hair,

if a man abstain from those deeds which the wise have condemned.

So, there IS good and bad deeds in this world.

Dear RR ji,

Charvakian philosophy does not promote immoral behavior and Adharma.

It is just a philosophy that does not believe in the concept of authority of Vedas and just makes us live in the present and does not focus on after life etc.

Charvakian believe that we are born to lead a life and when it ends it ends..in fact it actually encourages us to be hardworking and seek wealth by fair means for our well being.

It is not a fatalistic philosophy.

It is not as if Charvakian philosophy promotes total lack of control, mania and mass orgies.

 

[renuka]

lots of humans having balls

Yup I agree only with this portion of your post.

 

[C RAVI]

But in reality all this so called holy types would have given Sunny Leones website the maximum hits!LOL

For God's sake, try to understand that, a righteous person with sense of shame, ethics, morality, discipline and spirituality giving maximum hits to Sunny Leones website or any other hardcore porn sites, indulging in wildest sexual games with a legitimate partner with mutual consent etc can very well claim himself/herself as good human with Belief in God!!!

As well, a over ambitious and greedy person can also be a very good human with strong belied in God as long as he/she stretches beyond limits to achieve things ONLY in righteous manner. Some of such people are there who would cry to God as well to be successful in such accomplishments, until they get their lessons of life and get into track.

Being incapable to understand the intricacies of human nature and human life and talking/writing some thing blah..blah..blah can help a person ONLY to express themselves for their own satisfaction.

 

[renuka]

For God's sake, try to understand that, a righteous person with sense of shame, ethics, morality, discipline and spirituality giving maximum hits to Sunny Leones website or any other hardcore porn sites, indulging in wildest sexual games with a legitimate partner with mutual consent etc can very well claim himself/herself as good human with Belief in God!!!

.

LOL! Ha Ha Ha..cant stop laughing.

So you see Ravi..all of us humans are seeking fun..so best is to admit that we are fun seekers and leave God out of the equation and not try to justify that one can love hard core porn,whip,handcuffs,blindfold and all and yet be spiritual..that way being Charvakian is better at least he does not practice hypocrisy!LOL LOL LOL

 

[C RAVI]

LOL! Ha Ha Ha..cant stop laughing.

So you see Ravi..all of us humans are seeking fun..so best is to admit that we are fun seekers and leave God out of the equation and not try to justify that one can love hard core porn,whip,handcuffs,blindfold and all and yet be spiritual..that way being Charvakian is better at least he does not practice hypocrisy!LOL LOL LOL

Oh MY God!!!! How can a grown up be so ignorant??!!??

Sexual desires are one among many desires of human living. Anything that legitimately keeps human happy and satisfied does not contradict God's creation and does not make one an Atheist. A male and female Indulging in anything for pleasure without violating the social norms and without over ruling others likes and dislikes (i.e. with mutual consent) are very much normal, just full and non-criticizing. It is once ignorance to call such like minded people as hypocrites because of their belief & liking towards God/Spirituality.

One has to be whole heartedly dedicated to God/Spirituality while in prayers in temple or at home and whole heartedly indulge in other pleasure games to any extent with one's loving spouse, with mutual consent (as how they mutually share). There is no Hypocrisy in that.

What I find hypocrisy is that, some strange and funny people start chanting Mantras (either loudly or within themselves) when they are indulging in physical intimacy with their spouse!! And, they say that, that is because, they are into spiritual mode 24/7 such that they some what are similar to Meera, Avvaiyaar and other male and female Sages, in direct communication with the Spiritual World, carrying purest heart and mind, that is compassionate towards Humanity and carrying Love for the Spouse as well..LOL!!

 

[renuka]

Oh MY God!!!! How can a grown up be so ignorant??!!??

Sexual desires are one among many desires of human living. Anything that legitimately keeps human happy and satisfied does not contradict God's creation and does not make one an Atheist. A male and female Indulging in anything for pleasure without violating the social norms and without over ruling others likes and dislikes (i.e. with mutual consent) are very much normal, just full and non-criticizing. It is once ignorance to call such like minded people as hypocrites because of their belief & liking towards God/Spirituality.

One has to be whole heartedly dedicated to God/Spirituality while in prayers in temple or at home and whole heartedly indulge in other pleasure games to any extent with one's loving spouse, with mutual consent (as how they mutually share). There is no Hypocrisy in that.

What I find hypocrisy is that, some strange and funny people start chanting Mantras (either loudly or within themselves) when they are indulging in physical intimacy with their spouse!! And, they say that, that is because, they are into spiritual mode 24/7 such that they some what are similar to Meera, Avvaiyaar and other male and female Sages, in direct communication with the Spiritual World, carrying purest heart and mind, that is compassionate towards Humanity and carrying Love for the Spouse as well..LOL!!

I dont think sexual desire is needed for life..its not essential service..cos there are many bachelors who are still virgins..so you see humans can survive without sex.

BTW what is so wrong chanting Mantras in one's mind while gunning it??

That show the ability of the human mind to dissociate him or herself from one act and at the same time enjoy another act and gain pleasure from both when both acts are fused...mental and physical.

That requires skill yaar..well let me get simple..why drag in Mantra Tantra etc..

Its like how a person who is in action with his/her spouse but thinking of his/her illicit lover at the same time.

All these requires skill that the virginal mind can never understand!LOL

BTW kindly do not degrade Meera and Avvaiyar..just stick to our normal human level.

 

[sangom]

I am genuinely happy that the subject of "Charvakas" and their philosophy has aroused so much enthusiasm with >30 responses within 18 hours or so. This proves that the aastikas love to hate the charvakas!

Almost all of the Charvakas' texts and other references have been destroyed and so, as Shri Nara stated, we have only to go by the poorvapaksha arguments and some details found in the sarvadarsana samgraha, to understand about the Charvakas or Lokayatikas. The founder of this philosophy was one Brihaspati. What that philosophy claimed is being followed by most peoples of the world, but with a perfunctory acknowledgement of god and other things connected with their theistic religion/s which have come to have a great say in societies.

If one goes to the other end of philosophy or vedanta, one finds more or less the same teachings being proclaimed as steps to attain Moksha or liberation, or heavenly bliss and comforts in life after death. The emphasis of vedanta is also on each one striving after one's own moksha and advices like:

का ते कान्ता कस्ते पुत्रः संसारोऽयमतीव विचित्रः |
कस्य त्वं कः कुत आयातः तत्वं चिन्तय तदिह भ्रातः ||

(kā te kāntā kaste putraḥ saṃsāro:'yamatīva vicitraḥ
kasya tvaṃ kaḥ kuta āyātaḥ tatvaṃ cintaya tadiha bhrātaḥ)

resonate the Charvaaka view point only, in essence, but want the people to strive for a heaven after death by mortgaging the present life to religion and its priesthood, so to say.

Naturally, the Charvaka pov did appeal to many and that was a threat which the vedic religion went about systematically exterminating so that religion as an economic enterprise would not be threatened with extinction.

As one poster said, we have to appreciate the utter honesty of the Charvakas. In the end the Moksha concept of vedanta also tells about the destruction of the "aham", whereas the Charvakas said that there is no "aham" and what you have is just one life, so live it truthfully and enjoy it. Religionists carefully removed the "truthfully" part and have been slandering the Charvakas.

In my view an honest and sincere Charvaka to day will be much more venerable than a religionist who is generally hypocritical and so can't be trusted even by his/her god!!

 

[sarang]

There is no objection (legal, procedural or cultural) to one, with family, friends and willing bhakts, to find a charvaka guru, and convert and follow the essentials of this darshana. If so they wish, they can form a gated community and practice what they preach and respect. A tradition lives only by practice, not just by dissection.

 

[Nara]

There is lot of misconception about Charvakas and one group says that they are just atheistic people who believe in 'Hedonism' and others say they are "purely rational people " . The article posted by me gives a more balanced view of the same with the author concluding with a jovial end hinting that the Charvakas liked to enjoy life and they did not like to deny themselves of the pleasures of life ( which are considered sins by a spiritual minded person ) and they were not shy of accepting the same openly . I have no complaints about what they feel .But since material on Charvaka Philosophy and their way of life is scarce I feel there will always be controversies when Charvakas are discussed .

The emphasis in the quoted text above is mine. I do agree a balanced view and approach is good, it is more tolerant, less judgmental, etc. But, a balanced view can sometimes do grave injustice also. Examples abound, from King Solomon and the riddle of real mother, balanced view between nectar and poison can be poison, balanced view between truth and falsity can be falsity.

Unfortunately, it is this kind of balanced view the quoted article presents because of the last para. I agree with Renuka, the article you posted was good except for the last para which gives credence to the caricatured view of Charvakas promoted by its opponents bent on showing it in the most negative light as possible. Even from the bits and pieces of information that is available about Charvakas from secondary sources it is clear that these caricatures are false.

Also, we can look at the materialists of ancient Greece for a glimpse of what Charvakas would have been like. It was not debauchery they advocated, it is what I would call enlightened hedonism that they wanted. The Epicureans of ancient Greece lived a simple life, they thought true friendship is the source of lasting happiness and self satisfaction. They did not go for excessive indulgences because they recognized that would lead to disproportionately greater levels of unhappiness in the long run compared to the fleeting happiness of the moment. This is what a Charvaka would have been, living life to the fullest extent in a way that would bring lasting happiness.

For those interested, here is an article that gives a truly balanced view of Charvaka free of any caricatures:

https://www.academia.edu/4179676/A_...dian_materialistic_philosophy_of_the_Carvakas

 

[Nara]

Epicurus, the Charvaka of the Greeks, bought a small piece of land and built a modest house called the Garden. He inscribed his living moto on a tablet and put it at the entrance to the Garden. for all comers to see. The inscription says:

“Stranger, here you will do well to tarry; here our highest good is pleasure. The caretaker of that abode, a kindly host, will be ready for you; he will welcome you with bread, and serve you water also in abundance, with these words: ‘Have you not been well entertained? This garden does not whet your appetite; but quenches it."

​

When I showed this to my wife she embroidered it, framed it, and hung it at the entrance of our little abode. I would like to think this is the Charvaka creed, friendship, hospitality, pleasure and happiness ....

another quote from Epicurus:

"Death is nothing to us, when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist."​

 

[tbs]

hi
i learned many western philosophical theories very similar to charvakas....many materialist are very similar to charvakas..

 

[prasad1]

In nature species, philosophies, ideas die their natural death due to natural selection.
If a large number of people believed in an idea it will survive, otherwise it will die.
Polygamy was practiced and accepted in many parts of the world, it is slowly dying.
According to Wiki:

Natural selection is the gradual process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment.

John Maynard Keynes is famous for saying: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” Perhaps he is famous for this saying because obvious common sense is not the normal behaviour of our species. Once bad ideas take root, it takes more than just new facts to displace them. Atul Gawande recently wrote very well in the New Yorker on how many good ideas spread slowly.


A corollary is that many bad ideas die slowly too. In India, we have enough home grown bad ideas like unsociability or not doing any business transactions for a month of shrad to name a few.


Saurabh Chandra is a Bangalore based tech entrepreneur
Homeopathy and Marxism: Why bad ideas don't die - Analysis - DNA

Some bad ideas die but are brought back to life purely to please certain individuals, or a set group.