Gotra in case of a Foreign-Brahmin marriage :s ?

[rakeshinnovation]

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regarding the first human

its like the question the egg or hen became to existence first..

I would say the hen which was produced not out of a egg.

for logical questions there are logical answers but for illogical questions there are no logical answers
another question by common people
did day or night appear first
i would say a night which was never followed or happend after a day they might ask how is that possible a night which was not followed by a day
i would say for ur illogical question that is the best illogical answer.
this was answer of the same question asked by great alexander to a great sage
you are asking a question of how this universe got created
dear let me tell u the answer of that can be obtained only by realising the universe itslef the absolute brahman and how can i answer that in words the one which is even above the mind, intellect and senses..
isn't ur question itself illogical? as logic can be reach where the mind and intellect reaches something beyond that where can my logic reach??

 

[s007bala]

Rakesh,what you have written is too good.

>>If there is an argument between smriti and sruthi all the rishis have said that sruthi should be upheld.<<

Now Sruthi,as per our tradition,the Rishis saw the sound waves apart from hearing it.What we hear we say hearsay.But i do not know any english word for drasthas,as how the Vedas were delievered to Rishis.Interesting isn't it!Now that is why Chandas were done to remember,i think.

sb

 

[s007bala]

>>did day or night appear first<<

As per Rig Vedam,there is no sun rise nor sunset.Astronomically this is accurate.As,Surya Bhagavan,is ever luminous,its only bhu-loka,which is orbiting on its axis and going around the Surya Bhagavan.But yet our Panchangam,our Jyotisham,take the apparent view,to construct bhugola shastram.Thats Maya.Sarvam Brahman Mayam!

So,for marriage,imho,one man,one woman and plenty of heartfelt blessings.Is all required with grace of bhagavan.

sb

 

[rakeshinnovation]

Rishis and Mantras

All mantras are within urself,
as per mantra sastra
there are there stages of mantra,

pasyanthi the final stage u can hear the mantra within so that wat rishis also did everything is there in your soul, you also if doing proper sadhana can see the mantra within and can hear the mantra coming out of ur kundalini and getting out thats the final stage of any japa sadhana
vedas are there inurself but only purticular people were able to realise them, they were called rishis and thats why more than the people who realised the thing

the thing they realised became important.

even that why krishna is given authority by vedas but krishna he himself cannot give any authority to vedas.

 

[s007bala]

Lord Krishna

>>even that why krishna is given authority by vedas but krishna he himself cannot give any authority to vedas.<<

Rakesh,Lord Krishna is the eigth avataram of Lord Vishnu.But in the Gita,Bhagavan tells Arjuna,this message of gitaupanishadam was already conveyed to Surya Bhagavan,who in turn explained it to Manu and who in turn explained Ikshvaku

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam
vivasvan manave praha manur iksvakave 'bravit

Lord Vishnu forms part of the trinity ie Lord Shiva,Lord Brahmaa.For a long time,i used to visualise the trinity,as seperate individuals and then as lord dattatreyar,untill i came to realise advaitham.Now anandam parama sukhadam kevalam gnyana moorthim.....

sb
[/FONT]

 

[rakeshinnovation]

geetha and vedas

hi Bala I donot why u getting Geetha into the picture I was just using a general statement to upheld the authority of vedas. Vedas are not what Geetha has mentioned here regarding the knowledge its knolwedge of attainging brahman.
but the practical wisdom is revealed to you by the vedas, vedas also has many application knowledges regarding daily life, like the vedaangas like dhanur veda, etc
vedas are not created they are even existing when the full universe is in the form or pralya or complete destruction

 

[s007bala]

re

hi Bala I donot why u getting Geetha into the picture I was just using a general statement to upheld the authority of vedas. Vedas are not what Geetha has mentioned here regarding the knowledge its knolwedge of attainging brahman.
but the practical wisdom is revealed to you by the vedas, vedas also has many application knowledges regarding daily life, like the vedaangas like dhanur veda, etc
vedas are not created they are even existing when the full universe is in the form or pralya or complete destruction

Ya,Rakesh.V E D A S anagrams D E V A S script become Deva Nagari...and so on...but marriage is by grace of gods,elders,friends and of course propr understanding between bride & groom!Gothras help in identification.I think Seshu has given the table chart.Hope it helps people.

sb:eyebrows:

 

[s007bala]

re

S S

>>With these type of classification, one could imagine the extent of division that the society must have had then... and the consusions thereof!!!<<

Even today in the USA,the marriage between a Cauc-asian & african american or anyother inter-racial marriage is uncommon.I am sure in UAE also between Islamic and Hindu is never gonna happen.Despite the fact,its only a man & woman,of the human species.So,different nomenclature is being used for Jathi.That is all.Lord is correct as usual.Hare Krishna Rama!

sb

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

its like the question the egg or hen became to existence first..

I would say the hen which was produced not out of a egg.

for logical questions there are logical answers but for illogical questions there are no logical answers
another question by common people
did day or night appear first
i would say a night which was never followed or happend after a day they might ask how is that possible a night which was not followed by a day
i would say for ur illogical question that is the best illogical answer.
this was answer of the same question asked by great alexander to a great sage
you are asking a question of how this universe got created
dear let me tell u the answer of that can be obtained only by realising the universe itslef the absolute brahman and how can i answer that in words the one which is even above the mind, intellect and senses..
isn't ur question itself illogical? as logic can be reach where the mind and intellect reaches something beyond that where can my logic reach??

That is why I said that it is what we choose... logic is how we perceive things... the human mind tries to see logic in everything...

My question is not one to be literaly answered... rather to be reflected upon...

As regards the hen or the egg, there are several possibilities, but in all that one forgets the cock...!!!

The inability to understand a particular context or happenning cannot be termed illogical... these are all presumptions that we conveniently adopt to avoid a direct answer as we ourselves do not know that... this is the simple reality.

There are different ways of looking at it; just because it does not fit one's view does deem a statement illogical...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

even that why krishna is given authority by vedas but krishna he himself cannot give any authority to vedas.

Everything is subordinate to the supreme... probably the intent of this is to impress upon us, the paramount importance and sanctity of the vedas...

Or rather its implied meaning would be that without the help of the vedas, we cannot realize brahman... Krishna himself has said about the different paths to attain him... these are just for people with a different bent....

 

[s007bala]

s s

>>As regards the hen or the egg, there are several possibilities, but in all that one forgets the cock...!!!<<

When one expanded to many,the creator made a hen and cock,just as man & woman.....now how did one expand to many?Aha!!

sb

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

s s

>>As regards the hen or the egg, there are several possibilities, but in all that one forgets the cock...!!!<<

When one expanded to many,the creator made a hen and cock,just as man & woman.....now how did one expand to many?Aha!!

sb

The original hen and cock are in hiranyagarbha state; what we see now is but their dream... of many...:yo:

 

[s007bala]

s s

>>The original hen and cock are in hiranyagarbha state; what we see now is but their dream... of many...:yo:<<

Maya or illusion of transformations.Gosh we are now into it..hope we communicate in our astral minds too damara dakara dum

sb

 

[rakkucamy]

I see that Rakesh and bala have been fencing from roof to roof and have strayed from what i believe to be the topic Quite like some of our shastras have been misinterpreted to absurdity. I remember an article written by Cho, a few years back, where he explained the fluidity in caste in ancient india. It was the austerity and the dedication towards academic and spiritual pursuits that seem to have determined the Brahamana varna. Over a period of time many groups have been brahminised. Even a brief overview of Indian history would tell us, how many ethnically distinct groups have been brahminised and un brahminised. The the rigidity of the caste system seems to be more of a recent phenomenon and there was quite a bit of caste mobility in ancient times. The Sakaldwipi brahmanas of the north, THe Nagar Brahmanas of Gujarat are among many kulas of brahmanas that vehemently believe in their foreign origin. Sengupta et al and many others have shown the existence of all sorts of dravidian and indo-european Y-chromosome haplotypes indicating possible adoption, conversion. Ramanujacharya and Shankara seem to also have been responsible for some of the tree-climbing in the caste structure of India. Was that kind of conversion as per shastras? Nope! but they became mainstream brahmins as many others. The Nanda dynasty, The Maurya, The Pallavas, The Guptas are all of dubious origin, even Shudra origin. They were however Kshatriyised, once in power. The Rajputs are clearly not of Vedic descent, they are shakas. Caste has also been greatly under the influence of power politics among Kings, between kings and certain brahmanas. POssibilities of certain foreign priestly counter-parts to have been brahminised in the exchange of knowledge, or Baluchi hordes to be kshatriyised (Vivekananda's essays) has also been noted. The whole idea about keeping rituals community-specific is for preserving the culture. I feel necessary adjustments can be and should be made for the willing. This half-german boy would be given the right, and hopefully he should be given the right to undergo upanayanam, if he wishes to. He is a real inspiration to many other iyers who are proud to slough off their beautiful culture in the face of western culture. Like Chanakya said "They who possess the strength of changing traditions, are automatically given way by the older traditions". DUring the upanishidic times, there was a clear policy of holding up intent for enlightenment over birth, clear examples include Satyakama. If we keep petty things like gotram, come in the way of upanayanam, we are either being ignorant or too chauvinistic of our roots. A child is born into a brahmana family after having done numerous punyas in his previous janmas so that he can engage in the progress of his society, is it? How much longer are we going to delude ourselves with such untestable claims? Verily great mathematicians, philosophers of Greece and the Taoists of China were Brahmanas too, whether or not the sported the poonal. Rules have clearly been bent and people have been taken under the brahmin wing through upanayanam through the guru-shishya gotraparampara instead of the putraparampara. I see some people are anti-vedantic. Someone claims to have talked of vedanta to be a place of hiding from the wrath of the shastras, I would like to see how many orthodox or as bala puts it "old school" brahmanas truly live by what apastamba rishi prescribes. I think they'll use the Kaliyuga funda then. I would rather hide under vedanta than pretend to be in a maladaptive myth of kaliyuga. I would also point out that we use the vedas as reference for all sorts of nonsense. Vedas are the ultimate truth, they are for the help of the society. However, tHey dont prescribe any explicit laws for the society. Many of the Vedangas are also stuff we picked up from other cultures including Romaka Siddhanta, Paulisa Siddhanta (we also gave stuff to other cultures, no doubt). They are as much a product of the vedas as is vedic mathematics P). So lets stop worrying about our privileges as brahmanas, m fellow iyers and iyengars! THere is no logic or sense in holding onto man-made sastras and rituals. Vedanta is the only thing that will release us from this. The only form of thought without form or thought. The true vedantist never truly feels out of place or out of time. THere is no Kaliyuga. Kaliyuga is a product of ritualistic empty orthodoxy. It is the inability to equilibriate orthodoxy with changing times. Rationalism and Spirituality - VEdanta. Peace out! And German Iyer boy, go to a progressive bhagvatar and explain your interest, if not go to arya samaj. Everyone is entitled to the upanayanam.

|| oM tat sat brahmArpaNamastu ||

 

[s007bala]

rakkucamy

Its difficult to read your posting,but still i did.Upanayanam is for the twice born or dwijas.If he is one automatically he is entitled.This entitlement of a human being is based on various factors.There are very many sampradayas today,i am sure,he will find one to suit his needs.Govinda GOooooo vindaaa!

sb

 

[rakkucamy]

hehe
hey bala

i know, i didnt intend it to be so long. but i had to collect my thoughts after reading the forum-purana you and rakesh have composed and i felt i had to write a purana of my own to fully opine. thanks for reading though Just felt i need to encourage the boy.

oM tat sat brahmArpaNamastu

 

[happyhindu]

Sengupta et al and many others have shown the existence of all sorts of dravidian and indo-european Y-chromosome haplotypes indicating possible adoption, conversion.

Could you please clarify what do you mean by "dravidian y-chromosome haplotypes" and "indo-european y-chromosome haplotypes"? And how on earth do they indicate any possible adoption and conversion?

 

[s007bala]

dravidian,aryan,indo-european,american,mexican..etc are just geographical indicators.

sb

 

[rakkucamy]

Could you please clarify what do you mean by "dravidian y-chromosome haplotypes" and "indo-european y-chromosome haplotypes"? And how on earth do they indicate any possible adoption and conversion?

hey happyhindu, sorry for the late reply. I mean to erase this whole notion of priveleged priesthood which we have and the whole concept of gotram being an infallible line of decent right to the rishis. You are free to look up some of the literature online or even in wiki, which have details on haplotypic markers which indicate to various geographical sources. As Vivekananda himself says, our religion has been missionary at some time. By Dravidian haplotypes among Tamil Brahmins I mean, those haplotypes not found in the north, and found in other non-brahmin castes. I hope your retort was merely directed at my inelaboration of "Dravidian and indo-european haplotypes in the Y-chromosome" and not at the indication of possibility of adoption and conversion.

 

[rakkucamy]

Could you please clarify what do you mean by "dravidian y-chromosome haplotypes" and "indo-european y-chromosome haplotypes"? And how on earth do they indicate any possible adoption and conversion?

I am in complete agreement happyhindu when you say that such results break up the unity of india also, leading to some brahmin-bashing. But that was not the spirit of my bringing up the haplotype topic. Statistically this data shows the distribution of certain haplotypic markers across the continent. So when you say a majority of Kashmiri pandits have their haplotypic ancestor in TUrkmenistan, there's more reason to believe than to disbelieve that there was some significant population who were taken under their wing. And keep in mind, I did not use the word Aryan, as I dont like the way the word Arya is being used about so losely to declare white or caucassian supremacy. That is racial and is wrong. My indication was only at emracing our roots. As in the Brahmapurana, where it clearly says that anyone desirous of knowledge is a Brahmana. It is time we allowed people who are truly noble and who have the ability to change our system, the interest to learn the vedas so on and so forth, to join our wing. That's all. I think you are mistaking me for some supremacist who throws genetic garble to divide our nation into north south east west based on haplotypes and chromosomal data. I hope I have cleared my views.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Rakkucamy,

Thankyou for your reply No, had not mistaken you for anything. Just that whenever i ask pucca dravidians to provide a 'genetic definition of a dravidian', they sortof are unable to do that, because there is no such thing as an aryan or dravidian genetically (they are just language groups and cultures). No matter what any result is, none of us stop being indian. Actually one can find results in quite a few different ways. People who choose love and unity will do it despite any religion, language, results, etc. :happy:

 

[s007bala]

AIT and DIT are Bull Sh**

No support from genetics for Aryan invasion theory Geneticist Dr. Gyaneshwer Chaubey

Common genetic traits - Aryan theory demolished
BY KUMAR CHELLAPPAN (Deccan Chronicle, 2 March 2009)


An internationalteam of genetic scientists has ruled out the theory of Aryan invasion of the Indian sub-continent.
The age old argument that there was an Aryan invasion of the sub-continent is simply bunkum.
Scientific studies prove that there is no such thing as Aryan Indian or Dravidian Indian. Genetic high resolution studies carried out by us prove that all Indians are derived from same grandgrand parents who arrived here 60,000-70,000 years ago from Africa,Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, a scientist of the team, told Deccan Chronicle.
Dr Chaubey, a member of the scientific community at the Instituteof Molecular an d Cell Biology, University of Tartu, Estonia, said the research also proved that all Indians had common genetic traits irrespective of the regions to which they belonged.
“It took us four years to complete the study and we analysed 12,200 samples to reach this conclusion,said Dr Chaubey.
Genetic studies help us to establish relations between populations. We focussed on the paternal (Y chromosomes) and maternal DNA genealogies. The data which we generated does not support any major influx to the subcontinent other than the earlier arrival of migrants from Africa,he said.
The present day caste/creed/religion is of indigenous origin,said Dr Chaubey.
http://www.dc-epaper.com/DC/DCC/2009/03/02/ArticleHtmls/02_03_2009_001_020.shtml?Mode=0#

My 2 cents.If the population of TN is subjected to Haplo groupings research,they will find commonality in a major way with Africans.Basically we Tamils are negroes,and due to mutations sometimes,the changes are markedly different in appearance.

sb

 

[Ramacchandran]

Brahmins were/ are every where from North Pole to South Pole! So I think there is no necessity in the place of Birth and residence.

 

[pbkhema]

The DNA and chromsome trials go to the origin of the humans and subsequent movement
.In all the ancient civilisations the priestly class were there.The origianl vedic people once they settled down their law
gfivers gave effect tothe Varnas. The priestly classes were the Brahmins
Even some Kshatriyas and Viasyas have gotra
According to the ancient Smritis in the case of a marraige between two Varnas if the father belongs to the higher Varna the progeny is one step lower in the Varna than the father.There were numerous intervarnas I am not giving the details now.
But generally in modern times the child adopts the Goyra of the father

 

[rakeshinnovation]

Gotra

Well Rema was that a general statement>>. looking at ur post it looks like that.... sorry to say it didn't add any value to the whole discussion that was there on that purticular topic on that thread.....



thank you
rakesh