How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

[sangom]

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[/QUOTE]Originally posted by nara

The OP has directed the question to believers, that I am not. So, with due trepidations, may I submit a question that may be swatted away if deemed impertinent. My question is "why", why must we encourage kids to go to temples more? Perhaps possible answers to the "why" question may open up new possibilities for answering the "how" question.

Cheers! [/QUOTE]

From my understanding of the OP and all the rest of the posts, the OP, Shri Servall, sees Christian and Muslim kids in his foreign location going to Church/ Mosque in larger numbers and probably more regularly while his own kids do not seem to view the (hindu) Temple as anything more than a meeting place for kids of their age. Hence the query.

As I have already written in post#15, it is nowadays diffficult to enthuse kids into religion and imho, the difficulty is much more when it comes to hinduism. You see, Christianity is simpler with a few dictats like unless you follow baptism, receiving the eucharist (holy communion), chrismation,penance, anointing the sick, marriage and holy orders, for each of which the Church or the Priest becomes necessary, you are not a Christian and may be thrown out of the Parish. Congregation or church attendance is a measure of the devoutness of a person. In Islam also similar but more stringent rules apply. There is no freedom for the ordinary christian/muslim to question any of the aspects of religion or to interpret the scripture; he has to merely follow.

So, for children born in Christian/Muslim households, it becomes somewhat a subconscious psychological input not to question their elders in matters of religion. Similar was the situation in the average Tabra household also, during my childhood. But hinduism deviated in its practice somewhere along the route. IMHO, the way was shown by Swami Vivekananda in his (unsuccessful, imo) attempt to tailor the hindu cloth in order to attract the foreign people into his RK Mission. Some of the bold questioning, rhetoric against the established customs and practices, etc., gave rise to a sort of "awakening" among the youth. Now the position is that our children will try to question every small bit of our belief system till they get a logically complete picture of the whole religious gamut; and this is rather an impossible task because, unlike Christianity or Islam which are concerned more in laying down guidelines for the ordinary person to lead his present life in this world, hinduism is overly concerned with matters esoteric — both while treating of life in this world and when talking about after-life.

The concern of hinduism with the supranormal, the supra-temporal is so high that it is difficult to convince any young and inquisitive mind, unbiased by religious "mamataa", even about Sandhyavandanam, Gaayatree japam or chanting of Vishnu Sahasranamam. If we were to say that these must be done by all hindus, it falls to the ground at once; if we were to say that these are musts for "brahmins" the kids will point out hundred relatives who do not obey that rule; and girls (daughters) will ask why poonal is not celebrated for them. Though old bandicoots steeped in the religious concoction, like we people here, may pride ourselves - armed with the sage advice of one Acharya or Swamiji or another - about our knowing the "perfect" reasons for all those innocent questions of the children, these answers will not pass muster with them. The more you try to be authoritarian and try to thrust religion on to them, the more dangerous and obstinate may be your child's reaction to it.

We have a Ganapathi temple in our colony where one very devout retired engineer (who probably imagines that he is doing a great "kainkaryam" of resurrecting hinduism, after Adisankara, probably ) started a veda teaching class for kids and adults - two separate batches in convenient timings and all. The adult batch withered away in no time- reason —no takers! The kids' batch continued but started withering; then one day a very religious elder of the colony confronted a group of boys playing cricket in an empty plot and asked them why they did not go to the veda class. The answer of one of the boys was revealing: "mama, if we learn cricket and become expert we can become like Tendulkar, but what will we gain if we spend time learning those mantras?"

I personally feel therefore, that unless hinduism is not refined and restructured to limit itself to a set of codes of conduct for people to live this present life successfully and all the rest of the voluminous items are confined to the archives (for researchers), hinduism may not have a promising future. Tell the kids what hinduism has for a successful this-worldly life இஹம் and leave out all that concerns about after-life, devas, pitrus etc., the பரம். Temples of the traditional hindu kind do not have any role in regard to the temple-goer leading a successful இஹம்.

 

[renuka]

I feel no other religion in the world gives more freedom than Hinduism.Its the only religion that allows the following:

1)Question and Answer
2)Multiple modes of worship
3)The right to accept of reject a particular theory or practise.
4)No one to compel anyone to be dragged to the place of worship.
5)Doesnt say that if you dont pray you got to hell and if you pray you go to heaven.
6)The only religion that has a high degree of tolerance.


If at all some feel that Hinduism does not really focus on the present life and stresses more on after life..thats not the fault of the religion but rather we humans who want to have a Holier than Thou attitude for self importance.

I feel Hinduism is well structured for the present and future lifes if only we dont confuse culture/tradition with essence of religion.

When I read about that line that the kids didnt want to attend the Veda classes thats purely up to them.May be they are not ready yet.
We dont have to push them into what they are not comfortable with but we can guide them to be useful citizens.
The kind retired engineer will surely find a worthy student to learn from him.
After all Swami Raghavendra conducted his class still when only one student remained.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Hinduism is more a philosophy or description of reality thn being concerned with supernatural beings. Advaita for example doesn't talk about personal god as the ultimate power. The essence of the philosophy pervades mundane fields such as medicine(ayurveda, yoga), economics and politics(arthashastra), sociology (varnas) etc.The esoteric aspects are inevitable because the reality was understood to be beyond space and time. I think hinduism therefore places the right mix of emphasis and does not ignore the material world or the ways for survival and happiness in the material world.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Views of an ordinary citizen:


I DO NOT WANT to go to temple because

1. It is noisy - loudspeakers
2. It is dirty - coconust peels, etc.
3. It is crowded - more during festivals
4. It is nuisance - beggars
5. It needs patience - to wait for one's turn to get the attention of the priest
6. It underlines inequality - VIPs and rich going through the special entrance
7. It is waste of time - travelling and praying


But I DO WANT to go to temple because

1. I want to keep up my culture - otherwise I would just be like a cat or a dog
2. I want to feel divinity - which is more in the temple
3. I like the ambience
4. It gives scope for an outing usually less expensive
5. It gives satisfaction - real and superficial
6. It serves as a good meeting place for the community
7. I get prasaadam sometimes - temple prasaad has a special taste! :heh:

 

[Servall]

My question is "why", why must we encourage kids to go to temples more? Perhaps possible answers to the "why" question may open up new possibilities for answering the "how" question.

Dear Nara:

Your question made me jog back several years to my childhood and brought back nostalgic memories of my temple experience. So thank you for the question. I was not going to respond to your question as to the ‘why’ part, for, it has never been an issue for me or my family since religion and God have been core to whatever we did and our faith has been unshakable. It is the ‘how’ part that I am more concerned with. I chose to respond only because I believe your question is sincere and at the end of this mail if you are as concerned as me in how and what we teach our kids in their impressionable years will help their decision making in future to choose what is right/wrong, I would kindly ask you to give us concrete suggestions how we can make our kids may need to go to the temples more!!

If the size of this mail is overwhelming, I kindly ask the readers to go to the last para!!

My grand father was a station master in Mysore during the 1940’s and as most of the Brahmins he was a fanatic carnautic musician. He was a good violin artist, and he was proud that he was friends with some of the brilliant violin artists such as Chowdiah. Station mastering was only to make a livelihood but it was the violin that was his passion. He taught my mother at her very young age ‘Jaltharangam’, where you would strike ceramic cups filled with water to perfection all around you with sticks in both hands (should some of our audience not know what this is!). She wanted to be a vocal artist but my GF wanted her to learn something out of the ordinary. She became proficient in that and soon reached a stage of concert playing prowess. My uncle learnt mridangam, so you can see they formed a perfect trio of a group and they would get invited to various temples where they would play concerts, several nights a month. My GF was a very contended man, although he got invited to play concerts in marriages and private functions, he refused them as he took his music seriously and played only for serious audience!! I was not there during these years since it was prior to mom getting married, and this was their life style.

After my GF retired to a tiny village in Tanjore district and my mom got married and we moved to the city, my mom would go visit GF 2 months a year during summer and their concerts continued, only more seriously. My poor mom would spend hours to tune the cups, and during playing if one of the cups broke, the loop started back all over again. Now they started playing concerts in the smaller temples around tanjore district, they were not famous or not first class artists, but they enjoyed what they did. I used to tag along every time they played concerts in temples since I would not leave mom to go without me, and this way going to the temple was part of my childhood. Prior to concert, we would all go around the temple to each idol and do a routine, and Prakasam, who was as old as my GF, was the helper we had to accompany and help us during concerts. He was darling of a man, a non-brahmin, and my GF did not treat him much differently than his own son. My father who would occasionally go to the concerts with us, was a huge Hanuman devotee, he considered Lord Hanuman an embodiment of devotion, nobility and valour and even considered H more important than Rama. He would make me stand in front of H idol inside the temple and make me recite H sthothram and loudly correct me should I mispronounce a word. In fact he was so crazy about H during some kathakalakshebam if the bhagavathar didn’t say enough about his favourite H, he would simply walk out in disgust dragging me, vaada polam, enna ramayanam kadhai solra without H!! He considered H so considerate he would explain to me in front of H idol that when H found Seetha in Ashokavanam and rushed back to announce to Rama that he found her, he chose to say ‘Kanden Seethayai’ instead of ‘Seethayai kanden’, as he knew Rama was waiting abated breath to find her wherabouts and H didn’t Rama to wait an extra second!!

As I was a very small boy, during concerts I didn’t pay attention to the concert but would choose to play hide and seek around the temple with Prakasam. I knew every nook and corner of temples (since all temples are basically configured the same way) but poor Prakasam, with his getting weaker in health, would literally beg me, kozandai periya praharam pohandheenga, ullaye ozingikinga!! I would hide behind Nandhi, or what he called sodukku sami (if I remember correctly, Dhakshinadheeswarar, allegedly he was deaf and you had to put sodukkau every time you crossed him) or sani samy. Occasionally, he would tell me little anecdotes sthala puranam or specific idol and that way I got to learn some incredible histories of those sthalams. When I got tired, I would sleep in the laps of Prakasam, who would sometimes kindly feed me my fav ‘nei thenga puttu’ which Mrs. P would specially make it for me in some corner of the temple while my mom was playing brilliant pieces of sankaraparanam or karakarapriya or the thukkadas to announce the end of the concert. I would kick or yell at Prakasam and run away from him to all corners of temples, but the poor man would run after me and apologize to me for something that I did, out of his love for me. Absolutely no Brahmin or non-brahmin hierarchy. The kurukkals who did the daily pujas in some of the temples were not rich, some of them had 3 or 4 daughters, never asked for money, simply happy to accept whatever dhakshina my family would give.

So against this backdrop, my reasoning for my kids needing to go to the temple is as follows:

1. The fact that my kids are born in North America has inherently failed me as a parent from providing them the same childhood experience that I had in India
2. I truly believe, from my experience, going to the temple as a child provided me a sense of discipline, sense of tolerance, calmness, a place of learning which otherwise I may have spent in less useful activities and feeling proud of my heritage
3. I don’t want my kids to go to the temple because I want them to; only to empower them to observe, experience and learn the purpose and meaning of God and religion the way I learnt, so they can ask questions, do their own fact finding, and finally make up their own minds, whether they believe or not believe it is their decision
4. If I didn’t create those opportunities for them, I would have failed as a responsible parent and caused to create a permanent cultural void in their life
5. And finally, I say this in all seriousness and due respect: If we fail as parents to bridge this cultural gap, we knowingly would cause our kids to question our faith and turn them non-believers and it will not be atheism by research but only through our neglect!!

So Mr. Nara, if you agree with me that we need to provide them those opportunities and allow them to arrive at their own decision in the end whether they want to be me or you, I would ask you raise to above your belief (which I very much respect) to offer suggestions how we can create those practical opportunities for them!!!

Subam……

 

[sangom]

• Dear Nara:

Your question made me jog back several years to my childhood and brought back nostalgic memories of my temple experience. So thank you for the question. I was not going to respond to your question as to the ‘why’ part, for, it has never been an issue for me or my family since religion and God have been core to whatever we did and our faith has been unshakable. It is the ‘how’ part that I am more concerned with. I chose to respond only because I believe your question is sincere and at the end of this mail if you are as concerned as me in how and what we teach our kids in their impressionable years will help their decision making in future to choose what is right/wrong, I would kindly ask you to give us concrete suggestions how we can make our kids may need to go to the temples more!!

If the size of this mail is overwhelming, I kindly ask the readers to go to the last para!!

My grand father was a station master in Mysore during the 1940’s and as most of the Brahmins he was a fanatic carnautic musician. He was a good violin artist, and he was proud that he was friends with some of the brilliant violin artists such as Chowdiah. Station mastering was only to make a livelihood but it was the violin that was his passion. He taught my mother at her very young age ‘Jaltharangam’, where you would strike ceramic cups filled with water to perfection all around you with sticks in both hands (should some of our audience not know what this is!). She wanted to be a vocal artist but my GF wanted her to learn something out of the ordinary. She became proficient in that and soon reached a stage of concert playing prowess. My uncle learnt mridangam, so you can see they formed a perfect trio of a group and they would get invited to various temples where they would play concerts, several nights a month. My GF was a very contended man, although he got invited to play concerts in marriages and private functions, he refused them as he took his music seriously and played only for serious audience!! I was not there during these years since it was prior to mom getting married, and this was their life style.

After my GF retired to a tiny village in Tanjore district and my mom got married and we moved to the city, my mom would go visit GF 2 months a year during summer and their concerts continued, only more seriously. My poor mom would spend hours to tune the cups, and during playing if one of the cups broke, the loop started back all over again. Now they started playing concerts in the smaller temples around tanjore district, they were not famous or not first class artists, but they enjoyed what they did. I used to tag along every time they played concerts in temples since I would not leave mom to go without me, and this way going to the temple was part of my childhood. Prior to concert, we would all go around the temple to each idol and do a routine, and Prakasam, who was as old as my GF, was the helper we had to accompany and help us during concerts. He was darling of a man, a non-brahmin, and my GF did not treat him much differently than his own son. My father who would occasionally go to the concerts with us, was a huge Hanuman devotee, he considered Lord Hanuman an embodiment of devotion, nobility and valour and even considered H more important than Rama. He would make me stand in front of H idol inside the temple and make me recite H sthothram and loudly correct me should I mispronounce a word. In fact he was so crazy about H during some kathakalakshebam if the bhagavathar didn’t say enough about his favourite H, he would simply walk out in disgust dragging me, vaada polam, enna ramayanam kadhai solra without H!! He considered H so considerate he would explain to me in front of H idol that when H found Seetha in Ashokavanam and rushed back to announce to Rama that he found her, he chose to say ‘Kanden Seethayai’ instead of ‘Seethayai kanden’, as he knew Rama was waiting abated breath to find her wherabouts and H didn’t Rama to wait an extra second!!

As I was a very small boy, during concerts I didn’t pay attention to the concert but would choose to play hide and seek around the temple with Prakasam. I knew every nook and corner of temples (since all temples are basically configured the same way) but poor Prakasam, with his getting weaker in health, would literally beg me, kozandai periya praharam pohandheenga, ullaye ozingikinga!! I would hide behind Nandhi, or what he called sodukku sami (if I remember correctly, Dhakshinadheeswarar, allegedly he was deaf and you had to put sodukkau every time you crossed him) or sani samy. Occasionally, he would tell me little anecdotes sthala puranam or specific idol and that way I got to learn some incredible histories of those sthalams. When I got tired, I would sleep in the laps of Prakasam, who would sometimes kindly feed me my fav ‘nei thenga puttu’ which Mrs. P would specially make it for me in some corner of the temple while my mom was playing brilliant pieces of sankaraparanam or karakarapriya or the thukkadas to announce the end of the concert. I would kick or yell at Prakasam and run away from him to all corners of temples, but the poor man would run after me and apologize to me for something that I did, out of his love for me. Absolutely no Brahmin or non-brahmin hierarchy. The kurukkals who did the daily pujas in some of the temples were not rich, some of them had 3 or 4 daughters, never asked for money, simply happy to accept whatever dhakshina my family would give.

So against this backdrop, my reasoning for my kids needing to go to the temple is as follows:

1. The fact that my kids are born in North America has inherently failed me as a parent from providing them the same childhood experience that I had in India
2. I truly believe, from my experience, going to the temple as a child provided me a sense of discipline, sense of tolerance, calmness, a place of learning which otherwise I may have spent in less useful activities and feeling proud of my heritage
3. I don’t want my kids to go to the temple because I want them to; only to empower them to observe, experience and learn the purpose and meaning of God and religion the way I learnt, so they can ask questions, do their own fact finding, and finally make up their own minds, whether they believe or not believe it is their decision
4. If I didn’t create those opportunities for them, I would have failed as a responsible parent and caused to create a permanent cultural void in their life
5. And finally, I say this in all seriousness and due respect: If we fail as parents to bridge this cultural gap, we knowingly would cause our kids to question our faith and turn them non-believers and it will not be atheism by research but only through our neglect!!

So Mr. Nara, if you agree with me that we need to provide them those opportunities and allow them to arrive at their own decision in the end whether they want to be me or you, I would ask you raise to above your belief (which I very much respect) to offer suggestions how we can create those practical opportunities for them!!!

Subam……

Shri Servall,

உங்க post-லெ என்னமோ கல்லு கடிக்குதே எனக்கு?

Though you have addressed it to Shri Nara, I think it is ok for me to point out the deficiencies in your logic.

• First of all it does not appear to me as if temple-going inculcated any discipline in you. Even if I were to accept that you were too young to abide by the rules to be observed by grown-ups in temples, it looks to me that you as a child were not taught not to trouble an old and weak NB servant by playing hide and seek in temples. From your anecdote, you come out as a spoilt child of a well-off, if not rich, tabra family with all the trappings traditionally seen in them. Do you honestly believe that your US born kids will become better human beings by such a childhood?
• Your father seems to have been a Hanuman fanatic. Whether such a trait in any of us, elders, will be tolerated by today's kids is very doubtful; such fanatic allegiance is more likely to create a strong aversion for religion itself in their young minds, imo.
• All in all, the moral of the post seems to me to be "Don't try to be honest and a temple-goer, simultaneously; it will hurt".

 

[Nara]

....If the size of this mail is overwhelming, I kindly ask the readers to go to the last para!!

Dear Servall, Thank you for taking the trouble of giving me a detailed response, the least I could do is read it, and I did, and of course give an equally long response, which I have done as well .

1. The fact that my kids are born in North America has inherently failed me as a parent from providing them the same childhood experience that I had in India
2. I truly believe, from my experience, going to the temple as a child provided me a sense of discipline, sense of tolerance, calmness, a place of learning which otherwise I may have spent in less useful activities and feeling proud of my heritage

Please consider this, we all have our unique upbringing and depending upon the kind of experience we have had, we want the exact experience, or the exact opposite experience, for our children. In the past, perhaps up until the time of my grandfather, the kind of life from one generation to the next did not change a whole lot. But, in the present day and age, irrespective of where we live, USA or India, the kind of upbringing we have had is unlikely to be feasible for our kids or grand kids, that is just reality.

Second, when we look back we tend to get nostalgic and over-remember the good times we may have had and overestimate the impact it may have had in shaping our views.

Third, the experience you may have had in temples while you were growing up is most likely significantly different from the temple experience these days, here in U.S. and, probably to a lesser extent, in India as well.

3. I don’t want my kids to go to the temple because I want them to; only to empower them to observe, experience and learn the purpose and meaning of God and religion the way I learnt, so they can ask questions, do their own fact finding, and finally make up their own minds, whether they believe or not believe it is their decision

This is something I can endorse, empowering children through knowledge so that they can make an informed decision on matters of faith on their own, instead of parents and elders simply filling them up with what we ourselves got indoctrinated with. More on this at the end of this post.

4. If I didn’t create those opportunities for them, I would have failed as a responsible parent and caused to create a permanent cultural void in their life

IMO, wanting to create the same opportunities that you had growing up, is so impossible a standard that to fail would not be a surprise. Though different, loving parents do provide opportunities for the emotional and cultural growth of their children. It is very seldom going to be same or even similar to what we grew up with. To the extent it deviates from what we grew up with, the cultural make up of the children will be different, but it will not be void. This would be true for children brought up in India as well.

5. And finally, I say this in all seriousness and due respect: If we fail as parents to bridge this cultural gap, we knowingly would cause our kids to question our faith and turn them non-believers and it will not be atheism by research but only through our neglect!!

Of course from my POV, that is not such a bad thing .

Joking aside, here is what I think. Lack of providing exposure to Indian culture will not automatically make a child turn into an atheist. Becoming an atheist is probably one of most arduous intellectual exercise. Whatever society we live in, India or U.S. the dominant and ever present subtext in all our interactions is theism, belief in a personal god who listens and answers to prayers. Almost all of us are raised in this atmosphere, and many communities look at atheists like being a rapist or murderer. President Bush Sr. famously said atheists are neither citizens or patriots.

Overcoming this kind of extreme social stigma and prejudice will not come just by default because parents failed to bridge a cultural gap. A more plausible outcome is some other religious ideology will fill this gap, perhaps Christianity or Islam or whatever, a even worse outcome I am sure. But, the answer is not to force feed anything on the kids. See below for my suggestions.

So Mr. Nara, if you agree with me that we need to provide them those opportunities and allow them to arrive at their own decision in the end whether they want to be me or you, I would ask you raise to above your belief (which I very much respect) to offer suggestions how we can create those practical opportunities for them!!!

My view is, our children must be provided with opportunity to study and gain objective knowledge about all major religions and cultures, no preference to parent's religion. The information provided must be objective, free of superstitious hyperbole.

Take the children to temples, church, synagogue, mosque, and whatever else there might be. Take them to freethinkers meetings. Encourage the children to question all aspects of faith, and rejection of faith, and compare and contrast. They must be made to defend anything they see as positive or provide arguments against what they see as negative. Then, when they are adults, let them make an informed choice, whatever it may be, and live with it in peace and happiness.

This is what I would suggest, whether I rose above me belief -- one that you respect for which I express my thanks -- I will leave it up to you and others to judge.

Cheers!

 

[Govinda]

My view is, our children must be provided with opportunity to study and gain objective knowledge about all major religions and cultures, no preference to parent's religion. The information provided must be objective, free of superstitious hyperbole.

Except for some slokas and deity worship, most of our priests, hindu gurus are not philosophically knowledgeable. Rather than they enforce what adults or kids should follow or obey, they should provide discourses on valid reasons for doing them or the consequences for not following them. People can act well on their own when they have a proper understanding. So, they can even evaluate over other faiths/religions, and reason better.

Take the children to temples, church, synagogue, mosque, and whatever else there might be. Take them to freethinkers meetings. Encourage the children to question all aspects of faith, and rejection of faith, and compare and contrast. They must be made to defend anything they see as positive or negative. Then, when they are adults, let them make an informed choice, whatever it may be, and live with it in peace and happiness.

Good suggestion. But going to churches, mosques etc. are pointless, as they are very biased/forceful and are more faith-based than individual/Self development.

I was recently handed down pamphlets by Christian preachers, and I had given them a short lesson on history, linguistics and philosophy, they just simply acknowledged the common-ness in various religions, and later realized one need-not be forced. But many koreans easily fell prey to the church, whereas the buddhism has better to offer on non-violence.

There are innumberable articles, books, links one can find in the internet to discuss and understanding the philosophy behind various religions. First of all, the hindus should start reading the various commentaries by our Acharyas, before they even venture into foreign fences.

Coming to the basics of ethics, values, virtues other than VarnAsrama, hindu dharma is a common dharma for a better way of living.

Leaving metaphysics/liberation etc. away, the very basis of a good society lies with the individual. Fixing every individual is like fixing the whole society. Thus, the very basic emphasis in Hinduism, is made on the non-violence, food/eating habits, meditation, simple living, devoting to intellectual exercises (those days it was 'philosophy') etc. .

The moment one breaks with the idea/principles of non-violence - non-veg food, physical senses, ego (mind) related to power, status etc. , the society gets de-graded. The days around 700 A.D, Hinduism was followed in daily life with the clear understanding of its philosophy, but currently, they are simply become part of culture without philosophy, which is why even Indians are simply after money, selfishness etc.

One may argue meat-eaters can be intellectuals, nice-people etc which may be true, but such influences may show up in other sensual factors [like many westerners being gay, obese etc. that lacks self-discipline]. Nonetheless, at work, I have seen English people more well-behaved than the asians and the middle-easterners. May be because, English people are disciplined at home on routines and individual chores, rather than a philosophical pov.

The history clearly says, that Vedic religion was the earliest and the Sanskrit (early dialects) might have been the earliest. The names of races, tribes, places etc. around the Eurasia simply reflect the origins of Vedic Period. Be it any faith, esp. the middle-eastern (jew, islam) or european (greek, german, slavic), all have the elements of Vedic concepts of origin/cycles of Universe/life. People distanced form the Vedic Philosophy had their own experiences/traumas added up to form new religions.

 

[Govinda]

Joking aside, here is what I think. Lack of providing exposure to Indian culture will not automatically make a child turn into an atheist. Becoming an atheist is probably one of most arduous intellectual exercise. Whatever society we live in, India or U.S. the dominant and ever present subtext in all our interactions is theism, belief in a personal god who listens and answers to prayers. Almost all of us are raised in this atmosphere, and many communities look at atheists like being a rapist or murderer. President Bush Sr. famously said atheists are neither citizens or patriots.

Atheism is never a problem in India, but even the Kapil's Sankhya and Charvaka (less ethical), had a better understanding of dharma/virutes to be followed for a better Self and the Society.

Where as the western faiths are more material/wild/meat-eaters etc. Though meat-eating Hindus are no different from meat-eaters of other faiths/ethnicity in being material, the Indians are definitely better in certain ethics while westerners esp. have most perveted behaviours like mugging, gay-relations, divorces etc. [But we are crazily attached to monetary gains, which will slowly lead to more perverted behaviours]

Some western atheists are made because of the religious barriers/hindrances for selfish unethical reasons. I dont deny there are genuinely educated, decent atheists among westerners, who are sincerely opposed to physical violence occuring due to religions. But still, their reasoning is limited only on the topic of 'equality' without religions/faiths/varans, but failed to understand the basic culprit of violence is elsewhere in the mind (gunas) that got triggered by the so-called 'holy' books of western faiths.

So, Hinduism suggest fixing the mind (CAUSE) rather than promoting/fixing the equality (SYMPTOM).

 

[Servall]

• First of all it does not appear to me as if temple-going inculcated any discipline in you. Even if I were to accept that you were too young to abide by the rules to be observed by grown-ups in temples, it looks to me that you as a child were not taught not to trouble an old and weak NB servant by playing hide and seek in temples. From your anecdote, you come out as a spoilt child of a well-off, if not rich, tabra family with all the trappings traditionally seen in them. Do you honestly believe that your US born kids will become better human beings by such a childhood?
• Your father seems to have been a Hanuman fanatic. Whether such a trait in any of us, elders, will be tolerated by today's kids is very doubtful; such fanatic allegiance is more likely to create a strong aversion for religion itself in their young minds, imo.
• All in all, the moral of the post seems to me to be "Don't try to be honest and a temple-goer, simultaneously; it will hurt".

Sangom Sir:

Wow!!! I wrote that mail from the bottom of my heart and I never could imagine that you could misinterpret it so much and rush to judgement as to how my kids would react to my dad's devotion to Hanuman or my love to Prakasam!!!

I will assure you this:

1. Your rush to judgement of my relationship with "my NB Servant" or the assumption that my parents never prevented me not to trouble an old man by reading three lines of my mail will no way diminish my respect and my most sincere love for Prakasam. I never considered him a servant and when I came of age I knew what the relationship was between him and me and my family, may his soul rest in peace.

2. When I wrote that my father was fanatic about Hanuman it was only to indicate the deep devotion he had for H. It may have been wrong choice of word had I known that you could interpret it that way!! My father still lives with me, and I assure you again that my kids constantly question their GF of his childhood and his religious habits and I have no indication that they are averse to his strong bhakti to H.

3. As to your last bullet, it went over me....and I will let my kids (and not anyone else), judge if my temple habits inculcated sense of discipline in me or if those practices that I seek to pass on, stand to turn them better human beings or worse off !!

I thank you for the mail and I have nothing else to add to your post.

 

[prasad1]

Post#35
Servell sir, you are a patient person. and my hats off to you to the way you reacted to a personal attack. I will try to emulate you.

I am sure Mr. Sangom was just making a point and not a personal attack.

 

[Yamaka]

Hello Servall:

I read your post #30 with lots of interest.

This is exactly what I look forward to read from people of my age group (60-65?): How was their early life in India, how things changed after coming to US or moving to other parts of India, and the challenges they faced and issued solved etc. etc..

I took my kids to my native village in Ramanathapuram district about 10 years ago.. I wanted to show them the schools I attended and the large pond we used to spend a lot of time during very young age etc etc.

Alas..Things have changed a lot.. I could not identify many of the landmark houses, and the pond is almost gone...and I was wondering what kids do these days!

As others have said here, India has changed a lot even in small villages.. probably for the better. The kids born in large metropolitan centers like Chennai, Mumbai, Delhi, Calcutta are very well informed and become very "Westernized" in their thinking and life style.

In short, the India I grew up is not there anymore! I guess each generation has that kind of feelings..

Best wishes for your attempt to create the cultural link to our youngsters born in the US via Temples.

Get ready to answer their myriad questions about God, Religion, Culture, Poverty etc etc.

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members, Greetings.

I may not be qualified to take part in the discussion in this thread. But, as a member, I may kindly be allowed for expressing my views, please. Thanks.

P.S. Needless to say, this question is directed to those that are believers!!

Not all the regular vistors to the temple may be 'true believers'; at the same time, not bothering to visit temples may not indicate 'lack in faith or lack in belief'. In my opinion, the quoted note may not be very appropriate.

......When I compare Hindus with muslims or Christians, I see many of the other [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]faiths[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] going to mosques and churches more often than Hindus....

I live in Australia. I know of many Christians who seldom visit Churches.In the case Hindus at least, they do conduct prayers/bhajans etc at home; Christians may not even do any such thing.

1. In my case, I do pray and do abishekam to my ishta devata on specific days at home; should it preclude me from going to the temple;

It is interesting to note, you are the thread starter as well as the answer provider! Your point #1 is the answer. You do conduct poojas extensively at home, quite possibly with devotion. After your children watched your sincere actions, they may not be attracted with the automated rituals in the temple. It happened in my case though. My children are not athiests; they don't go to any temple either. While your 'do it yourself' poojas and abhishegams may not perclude you from visiting temples, they may possibly set the standard for the temple priest in the psyche of your children. I can't think of many temple priests raising up to such standards.

2. If I dont go, how can I set an example to my kids from going to the temple;

If you don't go, why should you expect your children to go? How about you teach your children to conduct simple pooja procedures to your children? They also could conduct poojas at home, can't they? Nowadays, our children conduct poojas or celeberate festivities; they request us to take part. (I didn't even know the recent Deepavali date; my daughter organised deepavali celebrations at home).

3. Is it because some how we have become less of an Indian?

An Indian is a person of Indian origin. An Indian is not an religious identity. An Indian could be a Hindu/Muslim/Christian/ Jain..... or belonging to one of many religions. A person doesn't have to be an Indian to be folow Hindu faith.

4. Is it because we are not proud of our heritage?

If we strictly search Indian heritage, regular visitations to temples may not be our heritage. I once asked this question... strangely enough, in Mahabharata, I have not heard mention about anyone going to the temple. This may be something to think about.

5. I have attended lectures on [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]Hinduism[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] conducted by whites and have been fascinated by their love of our religion and its content how come some of us are not able to realize the vast richness and heritage of our culture?

Personally I may not start asking questions based on others fascinations. To start with, such fascinations are questionable. There are other whites like Richard Dawkins who are less fascinated with any religion including Hinduism.

6. If I become more knowledgeable with the scriptures, vedas and able to answer the questions that my kids have on Hinduism,
will it be a factor to encourage them to go to temple?

I personally think, if you are more knowldegeable with scriptures, vedas and answer the questions, your children would less likely to visit temples after that. With your answers, your children may be more knowledgeable than the average temple priests. They may not go to the temple at all.

visitations to the temple are not viewed as important in our family.

Cheers!

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear servall !
you regularly tell your children about our puranas,rituals,gods etc .share your feeling attained by performance of abishekam ,archanas &prayer .make them to hear good &simple slogas sung by devotional singers.present them gifts after each visit to temple(i could hear some body murmuring as bribe).If they feel bored to visit temple mix the itinerary with some site seeing and holidaying.
with best wishes ,
narayanan

 

[guruvayurappan]

daer raghy !
very nice analisis.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear sir !
very nice writeup .but the line"Don't try to be honest and a temple-goer, simultaneously; it will hurt".may hurt the honest person visiting temples.is it your honest assessment?

 

[sangom]

Post#35
Servell sir, you are a patient person. and my hats off to you to the way you reacted to a personal attack. I will try to emulate you.

I am sure Mr. Sangom was just making a point and not a personal attack.

Shri Prasad,

I wrote on the basis of the overall and overwhelming impression that I got on reading that rather detailed post. As you, and perhaps Shri servall and others might agree, what the reader concludes need not be what you think he will, or he should, conclude on whatever we write. Since writing is unidimensional, it is very necessary to have an attitude of compromise. And I very much appreciate Shri servall for his unruffled response.

That said, I still do not consider that by playing hide-and-seek and making an old man (be it NB or B, servant or even father) in the temple precincts, one can convince others that such a regimen infused a "sense of discipline" in him. I still would say that it was unruly behaviour. Possibly, Shri servall acquired all his sense of discipline elsewhere like his university, office and most importantly from life in US where people have to follow the rules and be disciplined; but in his own misdiagnosis, he attributes it to his growing up in temple praakaarams because, right now, the "going-to-temple" bug has entered his brain.

Shri servall,

You wrote —

"2. When I wrote that my father was fanatic about Hanuman it was only to indicate the deep devotion he had for H. It may have been wrong choice of word had I known that you could interpret it that way!! My father still lives with me, and I assure you again that my kids constantly question their GF of his childhood and his religious habits and I have no indication that they are averse to his strong bhakti to H."

I presume that your father may not be doing the same things with your kids as he did with you-asking the children to recite H sloka and correcting mistakes loudly so others will hear and dragging your kids away if adequate eulogy is not done of H in any pravacanam, etc. Let me know how your kids will receive such behaviours from their grandpa. I am sure that if they are lukewarm towards temple visits, they will not like such treatment either.

The last bullet was semi-serious but I am pretty sure it has not gone above your head.

Thanks again for your patient response.

 

[sangom]

dear sir !
very nice writeup .but the line"Don't try to be honest and a temple-goer, simultaneously; it will hurt".may hurt the honest person visiting temples.is it your honest assessment?

Shri narayanan,

Shri servall's post appeared to me to be a honest (frank) recounting of some aspects of his childhood which he felt would prove that temple-going has made him disciplined. But the impression I got, on reading it, was very different. Hence I felt that if at all Shri servall wanted to make a case in favour of temple-going, he should not have been so honest but tried to 'doctor' his post suitably.

If my remarks do not bring this idea clearly, I apologize for that.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear sangom !in this very first line i appreciated your detailed letter and understood your point of view .only i wanted to know about utterance in the sentence.no big word apology needed.your way of expression is very nice and reading your posts daily.

 

[sangom]

Hindu temples are most always, man-made; may be there are few exceptions like Amarnath. In all these temples, one or more idols are placed on suitable high pedestals and worshipped in some specified ways. The temple precincts range from the very expansive Thanjavur periya kovil to small ஒண்டுக்குடித்தனம் kovils like the bhajan samaj temple of Matunga, Mumbai; in the latter place there once was a large hall-with a capacity to seat around 200 people or so-and I remember having listened to many bhajans, pravacanams, harikathas, etc., etc., there sitting cross-legged on the (red-tiled) floor. It was a losing concern and some brain behind its management turned it into a Rama temple first. In due course we had Guruvayoorappan, Murugan with Valli & Devaanai, Ayyappan, Navagraha and, of course, the mandatory vinayaka - each having a separate "sannidhi". The whole gamut of gods has only the old hall to live in and it looks like the ஸ்டோர் குடித்தனம் of Chennai. The priests' with their families live in flats constructed on the roof (RCC) of the hall and when the first floor flats were being constructed, way back in the 1960's, I always used to worry about what a shame it will be if the latrine or bathroom developed a leak! (There will be stinking water seeping/dripping down in the temples.)

There is a usual logic put forward by temple-enthusiasts saying temples are like bi-convex optical lenses which condense beams of divinity to the focus - which is the idol in the temple, or, that temple is like a radio receiver - it is capable of receiving the divine rays and amplify them so that ordinary humans are enabled to receive divine grace and blessings more easily and with less effort by visiting the "moorthi", concentrating on it and praying to it.

The śakti or power in the temple idol/s are usually (supposed to be) created by either āgamic or by tāntric methods. In both the methods are all certain formalities, rites, chants, etc., done by the priestly class. In addition, in the tāntrik method, every temple has a chief priest called tantri who invokes his own divinity and spreads it into the idol; because of this the tantri is held in the same position as the father of the divinity in the temple. Hence the importance of the tantri in temples like Sabarimala, Guruvayur, Sree Padmanabhaswamy temple, etc. (Incidentally there are tantris and tantris and some can be found in the queues before the beverages corporation - Kerala's TASMAC!)

Since the divinity or śakti of the idols in both the āgamic and tāntrik temples ultimately emanate from human divinity or as a result of human-performed rites, it goes to show that the concept of some "higher divinity" residing in the idol is just a matter of misguided belief of the people who throng to the temples. There is a higher divinity residing in each one of us but we are unable to visualize or realize it; we can't visualize because we have been completely brainwashed into a certain way of thinking, we can't realize because we have debased that divinity within us due to our various actions and thinking.

Temple worship, therefore, is a device created by our ancestors for congregational prayers. I would personally consider this as a reform brought about after our vedic people came in contact with other cultures which were doing temple worship. As such temples are only secondary to Hinduism and household worship is the primary requisite.

 

[Servall]

Naraji:

Take the children to temples, church, synagogue, mosque, and whatever else there might be. Take them to freethinkers meetings. Encourage the children to question all aspects of faith, and rejection of faith, and compare and contrast. They must be made to defend anything they see as positive or provide arguments against what they see as negative. Then, when they are adults, let them make an informed choice, whatever it may be, and live with it in peace and happiness

Couldnt agree with you more. I can only facilitate them to go (I am not knowledgeable of any other faiths to give them aspects of other faiths), encourage them to ask questions and compare all aspects of all faiths and let them make an informed decision when they are able to do so.

BUT, based on what you say in your post a decision No/Yes to God/Religion can come only come when they comare/contrast ALL RELIGIONS AND ALL FAITHS, since all regions, in my mind, believe in a super being.

So are you comfortable in saying to your kids that you have studied all religions out there and you have answered all questions relevant to existence of God in all those religions and convinced yourself there is no God in any of those religions and thus you arrived at your conclusion?

Would you agree, if our kids made a decision to be non-believers on half-baked research and findings, then it is not an entirely correct decision right?

If you can tell us that you are a scholar in all religions, I would be very humbled, whether it matters to you or not.

 

[Nara]

BUT, based on what you say in your post a decision No/Yes to God/Religion can come only come when they comare/contrast ALL RELIGIONS AND ALL FAITHS, since all regions, in my mind, believe in a super being.

So are you comfortable in saying to your kids that you have studied all religions out there and you have answered all questions relevant to existence of God in all those religions and convinced yourself there is no God in any of those religions and thus you arrived at your conclusion?

Dear Servall, I don't remember saying one has to go around studying ALL the religions out there, if I did please don't take it literally.

First, I would like to submit religion, faith, etc., are not rocket science or complicated differential equations. The basic tenets, ideas and to some extent practices can be easily understood. It is not necessary to become an expert in all the religions to choose one or reject them all. Besides most religions are very similar, the differences are by and large cosmetic. Here, the Hindus of this web site make lots of claims, but interestingly, these are very similar to the claims other relgionists make about their own religion.

Second, while it is important for caregivers to expose their wards to as many different ideas and practices as possible, it is more important to guide them to think through the ideas and practices they may come across in a critical and objective way. This way they are equipped to deal with anything they come across, not just the stuff we expose them to.

In this respect, please permit me to make one observation. We very often see in this web site people making statements like Hinduism is most logical, it allows everything to be questioned, it allows for diversity, and many such statements. If I am raising a kid I will ask her/him to analyze the validity of these statements. I will question her/him and make them defend any conclusion they arrive at. I will ask them to put similar statements that Christians make, and Muslims make, through the same ringer. The idea is to teach them a process, not a conclusion. Our role as parents must be that of a facilitator, nothing more.

Would you agree, if our kids made a decision to be non-believers on half-baked research and findings, then it is not an entirely correct decision right?

This has the flavor of a rhetorical question. On the surface of it, of course I agree, I wouldn't want anybody to make any decision based on half-baked research and findings, even if it is choosing in which restaurant to eat dinner. A broader point I am trying to make is, give the opportunity to kids to think critically for themselves, and they will make the right choice on their own. If they do choose to be a freethinker it would be because of a process of critical thinking, not because they were raised that way. In other words, if they choose to be non-believers, or believers, it just could not be because of half-baked research and findings.

If you can tell us that you are a scholar in all religions, I would be very humbled, whether it matters to you or not.

In other words, if I give up my humility and boast that I am a scholar in all religions, then you will feel humbled -- this is not a fair exchange .

To be a scholar in a given religion you have to dig deep and study all the texts written and be able to synthesize for non-scholars. To state the obvious, I am no scholar of anything, but for our purposes one need not be a scholar in even a single religion, let alone all of them, all that is required is to read up on the doctrines of these religions with a critical eye. If we did, the similarities we will find would be striking.

All religions claim theirs is the right path, and how they treat the other paths differ. All religions assert their text is inerrant conveying the ultimate truth. Most religions advocate a superman god (h/t Y) who listens to and answers prayers. Most religions believe there is a soul and it continues to exist after death. Most religions assert their god has dominion over these souls and they get dealt with by their god based on how close to the teachings of their texts they lived while they were embodied.

To see all this one need not be a scholar, all that is required is to not get carried away by our sense of duty, or pride, to be faithful to the religion of our forefathers.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Shri servall,

This is re. post#46 above. One need not be a 'scholar' of all religions in order to decide for oneself whether one should or should not believe in a God, and, even if one decides to so believe, whether he/she should follow any particular religion.

In the ultimate analysis, if one can do that without being influenced by any religion, the concept of a GOD or Super power is a matter of personal conviction. None has seen or otherwise experienced God through sense organs and even if somebody says he has, he is unable to reproduce that personal experience in anyone else. So, if one person's antenna is so tuned that he/she does not need a belief in a God, then he/she should be given the freedom to follow that conviction, that path. The world has had lakhs and crores of believers and atheists; all die and none has come back to tell us the truth hereafter. In that sense, there may be no harm in someone assuming that Man is not supposed to know what lies beyond this life and prefer atheism to theism.


If you study kathopanishad, Nachiketa asks Yama about afterlife and Yama tries his best to avoid answering it. But that upanishad ultimately has nothing much to say except the following (a gist of the meanings of 2-3-12 to 18 of kathopanishad):—

Only a person who has firm belief in the Supreme God will be able to achieve (upalabhyate) That; how can a non-believer get that?
When a devotee has firm belief that God exists and then he meditates upon that God, and further makes a firm resolve in his mind that "God is definitely there, He dwells in my heart and definitely it is possible (for me) to achieve (upalabdhi) Him", then only the Supreme God's image becomes discernible to that man.

When a devotee destroys all desires in his mind except the one for experiencing the God, then only he will achieve the experience of the Supreme Divinity in himself.

Out of the one hundred nāḍīs (nerves?) one, the sushumnaa, connects the heart to the brain. People who are eligible for entry into God's heaven exit from the physical body through this sushumnaa and go to the higher worlds; others on death, exit through other nāḍīs and get rebirth in accordance with their karma and tendencies (vaasanaa).

The paramaatmaa resides in each one's heart in the size of a thumb. A true seeker should view this Supreme residing in oneself as different from one's body, just as different is bamboo from wicker. This is the eternal knowledge.

Thus instructed by mrityu (Yama), Nachiketa was able to practise that vidyaa and realize the Supreme. Anyone else who also understands this vidyaa without mistake, like Nachiketa and practises it, also gets liberated from all desires and attains the Supreme.

You will thus find that even Yama did not have much to say about life after death. This also strengthens the notion that what religion requires as the very basic requirement is a firm belief in its dicta.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Servall:

Ref: Your post # 46.

What scholarship is needed to understand God and Religions?

There are only 3 Abrahamic religions and Hinduism as major religions in the world followed by probably 5 billion people.

The common denominator of ALL Religions is

The Belief that there is a Super Natural Agent - the God - somewhere standing/sitting in the Universe controlling ALL activities of the Universe, including humans in this world, ALL the time.

Accordingly, there is NO FREEWILL to people to act on their own. As such, FATALISM is the core of it all.

Further, Hinduism posits that there is Janma Poorva Karma which Abrahamic religions don't subscribe to.

Our youngsters will want you to explain this and make a rationale argument to support this core Belief.

If you are lucky, you may convince them and thus enthuse them to go to Temple regularly.

If not, they will just walk away from you.

This is as simple as that, IMO.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

The original intent of the post was very clear.
"P.S. Needless to say, this question is directed to those that are believers!!"

It is not to say others are not welcome but to an extent respectfully please stay within that parameters.
If someone has a doubt about a Cancer in his lungs it does not help him, for you to say that it was the fault of his parents or the place he was born. If we can help him from the suffering or a cure we know, that might help we should by all means offer him that suggestion.

I want to apologies to all the others who will be offended by my posting. It is not a personal insult to any of you. If you can provide a solution to the perceived problem that would help the poster please do so. Everything is not the solution YOU think.