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How much interest westerners have in Carnatic music?

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Naina_Marbus

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I would like members to share their experience and awareness of the extent to which interest in Carnatic music has caught on in the West.

Recently, purely by chance, I happened to stumble upon an article titled
"Why Carnatic Music?" by one Mr. Todd McComb (http://www.medieval.org/music/world/carnatic/cmc.html),
who appears to be the Principal and President of MedievalMusic and Arts Foundation, located in Mountain View, CA.

Excerpts from Todd McComb’s article:

….As a Westerner interested in Carnatic music, I am frequently asked to explain my interest and to articulate what makes South Indian music special. Both Indians and Westerners ask the same questions. Since I did not grow up with it, but rather chose it for myself from among a broad range of world traditions, Carnatic music is special indeed……

...cross-cultural interactions serve not only to broaden one's horizons, but also to set one's own cultural identity more strongly in relief. My more direct and natural interest in Western traditional music has been nourished by an appreciation forIndian music...

……I value Carnatic music first for the effectiveness with which it can build positive mental discipline. It helps me to focus and organize my thoughts, and it helps to eliminate negative mental habits. How does it do this? Of course, I do not really know. However, I do claim that music naturally illustrates patterns of thought, and in the case of the great composers of Carnatic music, these mental patterns have been effectively conveyed at the highest level.

....Carnaticmusic is one of the world's great treasures. I am honored to have been associated with it in some small way...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
The website for Medieval Music & Arts Foundation claims to be an incorporated non-profit public charity, with activities centered on online publishing.Their “Vision Statement” is listed here:http://www.medieval.org/org/vision.html

At their main site http://www.medieval.org/ ,you will see a link titled Carnatic lyrics: http://www.medieval.org/music/world/carnatic/lyrics/

Clicking on this link will show the following:
****************************************************
CarnaticMusic - Compositions & Lyrics

Compositions of Venkata Kavi
***********************************************
No amount of googling about him would get me any info on Mr McComb..

Maybe Madam RR can throw some light?
 
Pujya Swami Dayananda Saraswati says "Carnatic music is a sure means by which both the performer and the rasikas could transcend the mundane world for appreciating Isvara. We have a profound form of music, unheard of in other cultures. Also through Carnatic music one is in constant with the ancient dharma."
 
mskmoorthy said:
Dr. Todd McComb got his Ph D at the age of 20 or 21 in Mathematics from RPI, Troy , NY 12180. He used to have a large collection of Carnatic/Persian.middle eastern music. I think he donated some of the records to RPI Library soon after his graduation.

As far as I know he is not music performer (in Carnatic music) but a very knowledgeable person.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.
 
Before we jump into eulogizing Carnatic music, because some westerner says so, can we say whether Hindustani music is worse than Carnatic, and if so on what grounds? On what basis do we hold Carnatic music as great? Are not our folk music (nATTu pADalgaL) much greater?

Your views please.
 
Where is the conflict or confusion. One familiar with and practicing sanatana dharma will not ask such questions.

Each art or skill or jati is unique and great in its own way. Praising carnatic music does not lead to inferior status for hindustani or western classical or folk music. Each is a hillock. Such samadarsana will dispel all doubts.

sangom said:
Before we jump into eulogizing Carnatic music, because some westerner says so, can we say whether Hindustani music is worse than Carnatic, and if so on what grounds? On what basis do we hold Carnatic music as great? Are not our folk music (nATTu pADalgaL) much greater?

Your views please.
Click to expand...
 
sarang said:
Where is the conflict or confusion. One familiar with and practicing sanatana dharma will not ask such questions.

Each art or skill or jati is unique and great in its own way. Praising carnatic music does not lead to inferior status for hindustani or western classical or folk music. Each is a hillock. Such samadarsana will dispel all doubts.
Click to expand...

I don't think (nor am I convinced) that there is something called sanatana dharma except for a few of your ilk who tom tom it in and out of place. I hopr this sanatana dharma with its concomitant samadarsana will also tell you that vegetarian and non-vegetarian food are two small hillocks; inter-caste/inter-religious marriages, living-in arrangements and arranged marriages are, again, three hillocks and each of these is unique and great in its own way!

I who do not believe in sanatana dharma or samadarsana, feel folk music, hindustani music and carnatic music come in that order of decreasing greatness and beauty.
 
In carnatic music the theme is always God, his greatness, glory and the atman's yearning to reach him, bhakti etc.,. All these are sublime and higher goals. In Hindustani music the theme is mostly about love between human beings and occasionally you come across songs dedicated to bhakti. In folk songs it is largely about love between man and woman and about the beauty of nature alone. The theme reflects as bhava when the artist sings the song. In all the three genres there is music no doubt if we take music to be only pleasant-to-hear singing of swaras set to a Tal in a certain pattern interspersed with periods of silence(these periods of silence are more pronounced in western classical music and occupy a central place in the whole scheme of a number).

So depending on what bhava you look for in music your order of preference will form. Because I am more inclined towards bhakti I enjoy a மானஸ ஸஞ்சரரே more (with tears rolling down from my eyes) than a ஒடுகிற தண்ணியிலே உரைச்சுவிட்டேன் சந்தனத்த, சேந்துதோ சேரலியோ செவந்த மச்சான் நெத்தியில or when my favourite Hindustani female singer sings கடினு கடினு..or the favourite male singer sings mujhe ithna pyar na karo mein nashe mein hoon. I enjoy both but the former moves me more than the lilting latter two. No wonder Sangom sir has a different liking with his known views on God, religion and bhakthi.

Cheers.
 
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To answer the title of this thread, the answer is ‘very few’. A miniscule number (to be very generous 10,000) of westerners may be interested, to various levels – from benign toleration to intense interest.

But then, even within tambram society, it is, I think, only a section of us, who like Carnatic music with the intensity propounded by some rasikas. It is the same with western classical music – only a minority, and none of them make even a fraction of the moneys made by the pop stars, let alone the popularity and name recognition.

I think the situation is the same with Hindustani music.

Ofcourse, we appreciate, anyone liking our culture. It is the normal and right thing to do. But just because a few westerners like it, we cannot assume there is intense interest in the west. Even in Toronto, with a large tambram and tamil population, it is a rare Carnatic kutcheri that garners more than 100 in the audience. That is a fact.

Ofcourse, modern Carnatic is synonymous with hindu religiosity. This due to I think, the trimurthis, and those who followed them, took on the same theme. Bharathiar has some exceptions, but even his songs sung to Carnatic tunes are religious in nature, like nenjukku needhi et al.

I read somewhere, that Hindustani music was originally religious hindu type. But with the Mughal and muslim conquest, the ragas and songs were re written to secular themes, and ragas renamed like morning, evening ragas and such. I don’t have any verification for this, but is believable. As this would have provided a career to the new muslim kings, keen on adopting indian culture, without the added baggage of religion, of which they believed they had the right path.

If this indeed was done, I can envisage, the same being done to Carnatic music. All we need is some classy music composers and poets, in tandem, to produce love ragas to adi talam and anu pallavi

eh!!! :)
 
HI Kunjuppu,

You have drawn me out again. I am one of those who is fanatical about carnatic music. However it has taken me more than 50 years to get to the stage of understanding the intricacies of this wonderful system. This is the main problem with any classical music. As you have correctly observed only a small percentage of the population show interest in classical music.

There are a few reasons for this. One (rightly or wrongly) people perceive that it is too complex. The ones who understand the nuances display an air of superiority that intimidates the new comers. When you ask for clarifications you are looked down upon. There are no books that are available that explain how to enjoy the music in layman terms. Only recently I saw a DVD produced by TMKrishna that tackles this problem to some extent. It is a good start.

The second reason is almost all compositions are religious in nature. This scares lot of people away. They think it is going to force you to follow some strict regimen and people simply get scared.

The third reason is that most of the compositions are in Telugu. A normal tamil does not understand most of the compositions and it sounds like gobbildygook to them and so they lose interest. The only reason most tambrams are exposed is because traditionally the girls are taught music at least to the level of singing some keerthanais, which was required during the 'pen parkum ceremony". If nothing else most households would have been exposed to lambodhara laku mika ra, and vara veena mrudhu bani. Non brahmins don't even get this exposure.

Regarding your last point that carnatic music will also migrate towards secular music like Hindusthani music, will never happen. There are forces in the field that will fight tooth and nail to maintain the religious nature of the compositions. The music academy in chennai in the forties did not give opportunities to the great MSS because once she sang a few tamil songs in her concert. They were so against it because in their opinion, tamil was not fit as telegu for these compositions. Unfortunately Bharathy in his one of his national integration songs had given some substance to this by writing "sindhu nadiyin misai nilavinile, chera nannattilam pengaludane, sundara telunginil pattisaithu, thonigalotti vilayadi varuvom".

Finally it is my view that music is music. I can get lost listening to any music. It is a divine gift of God to humans.

K. Kumar

By the way how do you post in tamil script?
 
kunjuppu said:
To answer the title of this thread, the answer is ‘very few’. A miniscule number (to be very generous 10,000) of westerners may be interested, to various levels – from benign toleration to intense interest.

But then, even within tambram society, it is, I think, only a section of us, who like Carnatic music with the intensity propounded by some rasikas. It is the same with western classical music – only a minority, and none of them make even a fraction of the moneys made by the pop stars, let alone the popularity and name recognition.

I think the situation is the same with Hindustani music.

Ofcourse, we appreciate, anyone liking our culture. It is the normal and right thing to do. But just because a few westerners like it, we cannot assume there is intense interest in the west. Even in Toronto, with a large tambram and tamil population, it is a rare Carnatic kutcheri that garners more than 100 in the audience. That is a fact.

Ofcourse, modern Carnatic is synonymous with hindu religiosity. This due to I think, the trimurthis, and those who followed them, took on the same theme. Bharathiar has some exceptions, but even his songs sung to Carnatic tunes are religious in nature, like nenjukku needhi et al.

I read somewhere, that Hindustani music was originally religious hindu type. But with the Mughal and muslim conquest, the ragas and songs were re written to secular themes, and ragas renamed like morning, evening ragas and such. I don’t have any verification for this, but is believable. As this would have provided a career to the new muslim kings, keen on adopting indian culture, without the added baggage of religion, of which they believed they had the right path.

If this indeed was done, I can envisage, the same being done to Carnatic music. All we need is some classy music composers and poets, in tandem, to produce love ragas to adi talam and anu pallavi

eh!!! :)
Click to expand...

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

A very precise answer to the OP, I feel.

I had written my opinion that folk music is the greatest, originating in the simple, rustic and untrained intellects & minds of the common folk and such folk tunes can still be found echoing in one carnatic raga or another. I, therefore, rate the folk music and folk tunes as the highest products of the humans.

Hindustani music was saved of unnecessary theorization (which has afflicted Carnatic music, thanks to the pastime of some so-called musicologists especially during the last three or four centuries) and the best (worst?) example is the 72-melakartha scheme. It will need a book itself to bring out the fact that actual singing has hardly any relationship to this elaborate scheme which has been further complicated by chakras, etc.
 
I agree with Sri Kunjuppu, that "very few" Westerners have interest in Carnatic Music and fewer understand the technical nuances of Carnatic Music. But to enjoy good music we do not require any of this. All that is required is good ears and pure heart. It is my view that a good Sahithya hinders enjoyment of the Sangeetha. Perhaps that is one of the reasons that we are able enjoy Carnatic Music better when the Krithis of the Musical Trinity and Purandara Dasa are sung. All of them are not in Tamil, but composed in languages that we do not understand. In this regard Hindustani Music has advantage,where role of Sahithya is minimal.

In fact, the instrumentalists explore ragas more exhaustively than the vocalists. Elaboration of Raagas does not need the support of Sahithya.

When we attune ourselves to pure music, true happiness sets in all over our body and take us to a different height of ecstasy, which cannot be explained by words. It is the same with any one, whether he is a Westerner or Indian.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
here it is kumar..

சிந்து நதியின் மிசை நினிலவினிலே சேர நன்னாட்டின் பெண்களுடனே

go to the below google site; type in english script to the tamil word and see it form right in front of your eyes. copy and paste it here :) it is as simple as that

Google Tamil Transliteration
 
Brahmanyan,


right you are. i think everyone has some songs and tunes which they automatically like, irrespective of origin.

i do not know much about english classical music - but anyday 'a walk in the vienna woods' or 'four seasons' or 'barber of seville' can be pleasing for me, at any time. some of those piano soft tunes, fill in the emptyness of a still night.

same goes for carnatic. i do not know much. but MS anything anytime. same goes for nagumomo of chembai; or vataapi by madurai mani; or pattanam subramania iyer. then ofcourse oothukkadu's tamil songs. ..nothing to beat it. i consider them better than the telugu songs.. just my preference..that is all.
 
I think we are comparing the apples with oranges and bananas. Music has a strong undercurrent of culture. It is a product of culture. You can not compare the Hindustani music which blossomed out of the Mughal and Awadhi courts which were basically muslim Kingdoms with the other two systems which had a different background. The Islamic culture profoundly influenced hindustani music. In Islam music is considered as a distraction. So there is no question of bringing God into music at all. So music was essentially a source of just pleasure and if it is sung accompanied by dancing by females it is all the more enjoyable.

Western music is again for pleasure only with the exception of choirs. Moreover the performance highly orchestrated in western music. Music was considered as food for love. The more racy it is the better it is for love. Thus in my younger days when I used to hear Lulu singing "come closer come closer and listen"...........and when ends the note with "my heart goes boom bang a bang boom bang a bang" my heart really went boom bang a bang.

There is nothing sublime about these two genre.

Carnatic music is more spiritually oriented and so is sublime. There is scope for every one to enjoy it and yet not go overboard. For those who can see music in colors, there is enough scope for enjoying the raga and the dialogue with the artist that goes with it at a sublime level. For those who are inclined to enjoy the lyric along with the music there is scope for losing themselves in the meaning of the lyric and the appropriate raga which embellishes the delivered meaning or bhava. And you can sing ராரா ராஜீவலோசனா or குறையொன்றும் இல்லை with the singer. That is carnatic music.

Cheers.
 
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Hindustani Music concentrates on Raga whereas Carnatic music concentrates on Lyrics. When you go to a Hindustani music concert the first hour is spent on Raga Visthara with hardly any accompaniment. Raga Alapana in Carnatic music is only a part. But in Hindustani music it is almost the whole.

Since there are no lyrics there is no question of any religion. Of course Hindustani music has been influenced by Persian Music. Persia and Arabia were well known for music. We have Suf music even now. Thumri arose in popularity during the 19th century in the Lucknow court of Nawab Wajid Ali Shah. Only in Thumris the lyrics count. They are either about love or devotional. Tulsidas and Kabir are popular.

BTW when did human love become Muslim or secular? Love is universal and it has inspired great poetry and music for thousands of years all over the world.

Though everyone thinks and Wikipedia says that Hinduatani Music is North Indian, most of the artists of today and even earlier were from Maharashtra. It is popular in Karnataka also.

Now there are a number of artists from South India in the Hindustani Music field. Dr. N. Rajam on Violin was one of the earliest.

Music has no race or religion.

Carnatic music is religious music. That is because Purandara Dasa the father of carnatic Music was a Saint who wandered round singing songs in praise of God.

Hindustani music has also thalas. But there is no overdue emphasis like Carnatic music. When I attend a Hindustani music performance, I am able to enjoy it in peace, unlike Carnatic music katcheris where the sound of Thalam Pottufying by the rasikas is a big nuisance.
 
Hi Kunjuppu,

Thanks a lot. I think it will be very useful. I will use it on the rare occasions that I post and if I need to introduce தமிழ் phrases to bring out a point.

மிக்க நன்றி.

K. Kumar
 
Dear Iniyan,

BTW when did human love become Muslim or secular? Love is universal and it has inspired great poetry and music for thousands of years all over the world.
Click to expand...

There you have deliberately twisted what was said. Well I understand. You could not resist the temptation perhaps.

Music has no race or religion.
Click to expand...

This again is oft repeated cliche and has become quite archaic.

I was only trying to point out the impact of culture on music. I attend carnatic and hindustani kutcheries in sabhas and also attend western music programmes in German Hall/Max Mueller bhavan. I enjoy all of them because there is music there. But I am moved to shed tears only in a carnatic music kutchery when a good lyric is sung to a moving raga set to an appropriate tal by a voice which has been properly cultured. We do have artists who combine all this.

Cheers.
 
hi
i think every form of music patronised by the time/rulers....example tygayya/annammayya are particular time/ruler....

same way the languages also....initially all music form saamaveda based.......then local languages ..may be telugu in carnatic....

urdu in hindusthani/gazal.........parsi in some form....sufi music in mystic urdu.....folk songs in tamil or any other

indian languages.......many westerners enjoy bharata natyam/carnatic music too....even i enjoy dasetan's carnatic music....

especially oothukadu songs....dasetan means K J Jesudas......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rttbdgefFkg
 
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Music is divine. It can bring a disturbed soul to hormonised level and maybe it trims up the inside systems to rythmic functions. Music will differ from place to place, region to region and continnent to continent. It all emanates from the basic sapta swaraas. Hindustani music can satisfy people who know about music and who know how to enjoy it. But carnatic music is பாமர ரஞ்சகமானது. Of course one can enjoy any music when it is rythmic. Otherwise it requires nerves to listen to symphony types.
 
kunjuppu said:
Brahmanyan,


right you are. i think everyone has some songs and tunes which they automatically like, irrespective of origin.

i do not know much about english classical music - but anyday 'a walk in the vienna woods' or 'four seasons' or 'barber of seville' can be pleasing for me, at any time. some of those piano soft tunes, fill in the emptiness of a still night.
Click to expand...

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

Oh, yes. A lover of Music is a lover of any Music. I have an unsatiated hunger for listening to music from various Countries and civilizations. Whether it is tribal beats from Africa, Tibetan chantings or Arabic music, the music of Sufis, et al., I listen to assimilate the intended beauty in them.
The taste for western music set in me while I was in college. With limited resources of the time or radio being the only resource for me to listen to Western Music I developed the taste with BBC western classic programs. Even today my understanding is limited to the soothing effect of western classical, nothing more than that. When I attune myself to the wavelengths of any music, they take me to different heights of mental satisfaction. When ever I hear the famous opera tenor Luciano Pavarotti, magic of his rendering bring tears in my eyes, even though I do not understand a word of his language. I belong to the generation when the the soprano Maria Callas was ruling supremo. Felix Mendelssohn's Wedding March, Vivaldi's Four seasons, Piano sonatas of Ludwig Van Beethovan, The Blue Danube, beautiful waltz of Johann Strauss, the immortal works of the prodigy Amadeus Mozart and I can add many more to my list upto Jean Sibelius of modern era, whose music enthralls me and make my life's worth. Even now I listen to Western classical which are available plenty in the free online websites.
I for one wish to enjoy the beauty of a flower untouched and not interested in dissecting it to understand how and why. It is the same with me for Music also.

Thanks and regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 

Joining late! I have had enough discussions with Sangom Sir and he sticks to his views as usual. Even singing film songs needs

'sruthi suddham'. That is why only a few singers reach to the top. Carnatic music is divine and can be presented in several ways.

That is, in a way which only the elite will understand and appreciate; in a way which even those with ears for good tunes will

enjoy; in a way for those who appreciate the lyrics and so on. It is not necessary to know the 'simhanandhana thALa pallavi' to

be efficient in carnatic music!

Some kids living abroad are very talented and I can give one example Kumari. Pragathi Guruprasad from the U S of A.

Without a good basement in carnatic training, such a song could not be handled by this little girl!

Super Singer Junior 3
 
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