Ilavarasan & Divya

[kunjuppu]

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Just hours ago, the body of Ilavarasan, a young man, on the threshold of life, was found by the railway tracks. Investigation as to the cause of death still pending – the primary concern being if this is murder. All in all, a sad episode in our culture.

I think it would be wrong to ignore this incident or dismiss it as something alien to us. Not true.

I think, many of us here, have had someone, or heard of someone, marrying out of caste. I do not understand, how when we pray in the same temple, we cannot accept them as husband and wife.

Whatever it may be, my heart goes out to Divya now, for the agony she must be feeling. Frankly I did not believe she forsook her husband, as a change of mind. Intense pressure, guilt and above all separation, can make one pliable. It happened to a friend of mine – who was literally brainwashed in 3 hours, to forego his white girlfriend, and on the threat of mother’s suicide, married the Iyer girl they picked for him.

Such is life.

May Ilavarasan’s soul rest in peace. May Divya find peace.

 

[sangom]

Just hours ago, the body of Ilavarasan, a young man, on the threshold of life, was found by the railway tracks. Investigation as to the cause of death still pending – the primary concern being if this is murder. All in all, a sad episode in our culture.

I think it would be wrong to ignore this incident or dismiss it as something alien to us. Not true.

I think, many of us here, have had someone, or heard of someone, marrying out of caste. I do not understand, how when we pray in the same temple, we cannot accept them as husband and wife.

Whatever it may be, my heart goes out to Divya now, for the agony she must be feeling. Frankly I did not believe she forsook her husband, as a change of mind. Intense pressure, guilt and above all separation, can make one pliable. It happened to a friend of mine – who was literally brainwashed in 3 hours, to forego his white girlfriend, and on the threat of mother’s suicide, married the Iyer girl they picked for him.

Such is life.

May Ilavarasan’s soul rest in peace. May Divya find peace.

The caste virus is such a strong infection in the indian psyche that sometimes I feel we ought to really admit that the people who instituted the caste system in the Bharatavarsha should have been superhuman in their knowledge of human psychology. Or, may be those were aliens who could implant a caste-gene in our genetic make-up.

One tabra youth fell in love with a North Indian college mate, but the tabra boy's unassumingly "simple" mother was so efficient that she could successfully persuade him to leave that girl and marry a pure tabra girl. And the reason? — "I cannot pet and converse with my grandchild since they will speak Hindi and I don't know that language." The funny part is - this mother lives in the North for several years now and has no language problem dealing with neighbours, vendors, shop-keepers etc!!

 

[mkrishna100]

I suspect a foul play both in the death of Divya's father as well as in the death of Illavarasan . Basically the Casteist parties and their followers are trying to prove a point that a Dalit Boy can never be happily married to a BC Girl and this is what awaits those families who try to involve in these sort of marriages . Except for the Dalit parties and few other non political parties no major Political Party in the state of TN seems to involve deeply in this issue fearing a loss of votes from the various Casteist groups who have all now rallied together under one casteist Umbrella in the name of opposing "Kadal Nadagam" as well as their efforts to maintain the so called their "Caste Purity" .

 

[kunjuppu]

gnani in today's deccan chronicle

copied from his posting in facebook...


Written for Deccan chronicle on their request this evening (for publishing in tomorrow morning paper ) :

Dear Divya

My condolences to you on losing one more beloved person from your life. This certainly is a tragedy that should never happen to anyone anywhere. Losing two valuable and important lives in in your life at the altar of casteism. Losing a loving father because you chose to marry out of caste. Losing the husband you chose, first by separation and later by death in your desperation to atleast save your mother.

We could have saved both the lives. We failed to do so. Here I mean we –not the entire people of Tamilnadu, but the so called intellectual sections of our state – writers, social activists, human right activists, journalists et al. We were all the time analyzing your life, your situation, your being a pawn in the bigger game of casteism, but we failed to identify why you really needed to succeed in your goal.

We should have organized a huge public meeting in Chennai to celebrate your inter caste marriage with several eminent writers and leaders who belive in a casteless society felicitating you. That would have given you a moral support. We the intellectuals should have counselled you into moving away from Tamilnadu for a while settling down in life and returning to respective families later by which time they slowly reconcile to the situation. We have no mechanism to do so. But had we done that to you and several other couples marrying out of caste, that would have shown the casteists that they are really not a majority. But we the silent majority chose to be silent leaving you to the wolves.

You were surrounded only by those who wanted to uphold the superiority of caste hierarchy. You were emotionally blackmailed to worry more about the possibility of losing one more parent in this distressing situation.

But Divya, I salute you for not ever changing your position about your choice of a husband despite these pressures. You never said even before the court of law that you were cheated, duped, kidnapped and brainwashed into this love drama and marriage as alleged by the casteists. You repeatedly said you needed both Ilavarasan and your mother and that desire was becoming an impossibility.

Our inaction has cost you one more valuable life. I understand the emptiness this can cause to you. We let you down. I apologise for that for whatever that apology is worth. But I have only one request to you now.

Don’t let yourself down. All the struggles you went through so far were in search of love and efforts to protect the love and affection you found. WE have snatched them away from you. You now only have yourself and your mother. You are young. Don’t allow the casteists to bully you and your family any longer. Education is the only boat with which you can cross this ocean of sorrow.

Five years from now I hope to see you as an assertive independent economicallty stronger Divya whom your mother would look forward to and listen and not dictate terms. Time I hope will heal your scars. You may or may not choose to marry then. But if ever you choose to marry again, I have one humble request. Where we failed, I want you to succeed. Please marry again from outside your caste. Only then Ilavarasan and Nagarajan would smile in their graves. Their 'bali' would not have gone in vain.

With apologies from the civil society for our impotence,

yours in distress

gnani Sankaran

 

[tbs]

hi
see this story also happened in TN village.....


??????? ???????????? ??????????: ??????? ?????? ?????? ????????????? ????? ??????? - Dinamani - Tamil Daily News

 

[tbs]

hi
i feel like this....when a personal life becoms more politicised.....then the problem of caste comes....there are many IC/IR marriages

happening....some are very happy too..some are very successful too....but when too much publicity makes too much problem...

??????? ????????? ????????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????: ???????????? - Dinamani - Tamil Daily News

 

[renuka]

I do not understand, how when we pray in the same temple, we cannot accept them as husband and wife.

Dearb Kunjs,

I would like to re word your sentence as :


I do not understand, how when we shop for vegetables in the same market, we cannot accept them as husband and wife.


You see vegetable market and a temple is no different cos people go there to feed their desires to sustain their well being.

Who ever thinks for the sake of God in a temple??

I have a feeling if we do an Electronic Voice Phenomenon recording in a temple we can surely
hear God's message on His Voice Mail..." I am currently not in this premise..kindly try again after 1 Kalpa"

 

[sangom]

copied from his posting in facebook...


Written for Deccan chronicle on their request this evening (for publishing in tomorrow morning paper ) :

Dear Divya

My condolences to you on losing one more beloved person from your life. This certainly is a tragedy that should never happen to anyone anywhere. Losing two valuable and important lives in in your life at the altar of casteism. Losing a loving father because you chose to marry out of caste. Losing the husband you chose, first by separation and later by death in your desperation to atleast save your mother.

We could have saved both the lives. We failed to do so. Here I mean we –not the entire people of Tamilnadu, but the so called intellectual sections of our state – writers, social activists, human right activists, journalists et al. We were all the time analyzing your life, your situation, your being a pawn in the bigger game of casteism, but we failed to identify why you really needed to succeed in your goal.

We should have organized a huge public meeting in Chennai to celebrate your inter caste marriage with several eminent writers and leaders who belive in a casteless society felicitating you. That would have given you a moral support. We the intellectuals should have counselled you into moving away from Tamilnadu for a while settling down in life and returning to respective families later by which time they slowly reconcile to the situation. We have no mechanism to do so. But had we done that to you and several other couples marrying out of caste, that would have shown the casteists that they are really not a majority. But we the silent majority chose to be silent leaving you to the wolves.

You were surrounded only by those who wanted to uphold the superiority of caste hierarchy. You were emotionally blackmailed to worry more about the possibility of losing one more parent in this distressing situation.

But Divya, I salute you for not ever changing your position about your choice of a husband despite these pressures. You never said even before the court of law that you were cheated, duped, kidnapped and brainwashed into this love drama and marriage as alleged by the casteists. You repeatedly said you needed both Ilavarasan and your mother and that desire was becoming an impossibility.

Our inaction has cost you one more valuable life. I understand the emptiness this can cause to you. We let you down. I apologise for that for whatever that apology is worth. But I have only one request to you now.

Don’t let yourself down. All the struggles you went through so far were in search of love and efforts to protect the love and affection you found. WE have snatched them away from you. You now only have yourself and your mother. You are young. Don’t allow the casteists to bully you and your family any longer. Education is the only boat with which you can cross this ocean of sorrow.

Five years from now I hope to see you as an assertive independent economicallty stronger Divya whom your mother would look forward to and listen and not dictate terms. Time I hope will heal your scars. You may or may not choose to marry then. But if ever you choose to marry again, I have one humble request. Where we failed, I want you to succeed. Please marry again from outside your caste. Only then Ilavarasan and Nagarajan would smile in their graves. Their 'bali' would not have gone in vain.

With apologies from the civil society for our impotence,

yours in distress

gnani Sankaran

Today's newspaper (05-07-2013) reports that the girl told the court that it has become impossible for her to join him and in that despair, he committed suicide. What is the truth?

 

[renuka]

. Please marry again from outside your caste.

Dear Kunjs,

I don't get this point which you took from a Facebook post.

A person opting for a love marriage should marry a person based on love and his/her caste should not matter.

So there is also a likelihood the person we love might be the same caste as us.

I don't get it why some people advise others to deliberately marry out of the caste just to show that they do not believe in caste.

If one does not believe in caste that means everyone is equal..so anyone of any caste can be considered for marriage including one's own caste.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjs,

I don't get this point which you took from a Facebook post.

A person opting for a love marriage should marry a person based on love and his/her caste should not matter.

So there is also a likelihood the person we love might be the same caste as us.

I don't get it why some people advise others to deliberately marry out of the caste just to show that they do not believe in caste.

If one does not believe in caste that means everyone is equal..so anyone of any caste can be considered for marriage including one's own caste.

renus,

this is current day tamil nadu. let me give you my take on this.

the girl divya belongs to the vanniar community, who have now 'discovered' themselves, to tbe the warriors of the three tamil kingdoms, and hence 'rulers' of the land. ilavarasan is a dalit. both agree that they are 100% descendents of ancient tamils. unfortunately both communities are among the bottom most rung of the economic and social ladder, with the vanniars marginally above the dalits.

the dalits, pockets of them, have made progress, thanks to affirmative actions, general sympathetic attitude of the society, and their realization that the key to prosperity is education and hard work and organization. in a village, the dalits provided the labour class, hired on will, and discarded by the land owning classes, whereas the vanniars, were marginally better. not much.

so there is a jealousy brewing from the vanniars, particularly, when vanniar girls appear to prefer non vanniar boys (zzzounds familar ?).

so all it takes in a small village, is to rouse the 'gouravam' of the girl's father, who not able to take the hulabaloo created by the relations, committed suicide. the periyarists and the marxists, always on the side of the dalits, took up the opposing cause. and all it needed was someone to light up a charged fuse, with the vanniars did, on their annual meeting at mahabalipuram on chitra pournami day.

not that intercaste marriages dont happen. in fact lots do. but there is a strict hierarchy. if one takes a daughter from a 'superior' caste - as in this case - there is no issue (for the dalits but issue for the vanniars). we have heard complaints here, and elsewhere, that when tambram girls marry NB, they are welcomed, because it gives a 'respect' to the boys' family. the girl's family should be 'ashamed' because of loss of face. it is a reality phenomenon in tamil nadu. so usually when this happens, the girls' family moves away

so, your post based on logic, decency, common sense, and above all on the premises, that love between two people, is their own affair, is simply not true, afaik, in india.

in india, if a hindu wants to marry a muslim or xtian, he has to go through a formal government application and process. i think in malaysia too, if anyone wants to marry a malay muslim, they should convert to islam. in india, atleast there is no insistence on conversion to hinduism. JJ tried to bring a bill to ban money induced religious conversion, but had to back out, in the face of onslaught from the muslims, xtians, leftists, periyarists and civil libertarians.

hope this somewhat explains. pls let me know if you need a further purvey of my views on this

ps..the mainstream DMK ADMK are mum on this...because all the mid level castes ie nadars, naickers, gounders, thevars, vellalars, are lined up with the vanniars against the dalits, if not publicly, atleast in spirit (and funding)...vote bank politics. these middle castes are the real ruling power in today's tamil nadu, and while paying lip service to periyar and abolition of caste, they do it only so far as keeping the brahmins out of any share of tamil nadu socio politics.

in turn, they (middle castes) screw the dalits whenever possible, and it is only thanks to Central Government and strong enforcement, that dalits have been able to atleast make the headway they have made. the dalits still have a long way to go.

the upliftment of the dalits has an economic consequence. it is very difficult to find labour to till the land and feed the rural factories, owned exclusively by the middle castes. also, it deprives them of someone to kick around - everyone apparently likes to have someone below to boss around. the dalit youths dont take insults by keeping mum any more. they have learned to hit back

tambrams, while largely observers, have to side with the dalits, and speak out against caste hierarchies. especially the sankara mutts, but i doubt that would happen. i think. the casteism is often termed as 'brahminism' and it is a thin line between accusing someone of brahminism and accusing a brahmin. these are emotional times in tamil nadu.

 

[kunjuppu]

Today's newspaper (05-07-2013) reports that the girl told the court that it has become impossible for her to join him and in that despair, he committed suicide. What is the truth?

dear sangom,

too early to tell what happened. judging by the state of ilavarasan's body, and the fact, that the passing train is kept on full speed at that spot, ie no human activity nearby, there is hardly damage to his body, except a cracked skull.

the body was lying next to the tracks in a sideward position, instead of being chopped up, and scattered all over, which would have been normal, if he managed to get himself hit either by the engine, or managed to insert himself between the fast moving bogies.

in any such case, the driver of the train, normally notices any unusual 'bumps' to the train. even a dog hitting the train, is noticed, and reported at the next station. in this case, there was no observation from the engine driver.

let us see, how this develops. no matter what, there is no peace for divya. she should have stuck it with him. apparently she had no complaints about her treatment at her inlaws.

also, in the hours before his body was found, ilavarasan, had not given any indication of depression - he had visited his friend, incidentally a vanniar, bought a bottle, and planned to go drinking with some friends. also he hoped to get back his police constable application approved, and till then, take up some temporary job in andhra..all indications of a positive young man. ... and he always said, that divya, will be back with him, once he gets settled and all this dies down.

so sad...

our community has had many girls marrying outside of caste or religion. the families have been upset, but no one to this extent of taking out lives, afaik. the most extreme, is when a neighbour, a pattar, IIT only son married american woman. mother went crazy and had to be admitted to asylum. for life. what to do with such extreme love?

i know that had i done the same thing, my mother would have been very very upset..to what extent, i am unable to say now..but that was enough to block my interest in the fairer sex while single in canada. this is the truth. had mom asked me to marry a lamppost, i would have done so. so absolute was the demand/accession of the oldest/only son in a tambram family, of my time.

 

[Vaagmi]

Hypocrisy thy name is Tamil NBs.

1. When a TB girl/boy falls in love with an NB and marries the boy/girl defying her/his parents, the parents either swallow it and try to be normal nursing a secret wound for life time or completely write off the girl/boy and forget her/him for ever as their daughter/son.

When an NB girl/boy marries outside her/his caste defying her/his parents either girl or the boy is killed or the families of the weaker of the two castes are driven away from the village. All hell break lose and huts are burnt and convoluted justice is dispensed with sickles and knives.

2. When a brahmin girl/boy marries a NB boy/girl it is just a non event.

When a NB boy/girl marries outside the caste it is either celebrated a seerthiruththa thirumanam or is condemned and parents hang themselves.

3. All the political leaders who swear by EVR keep their mouths shut when vanniar object to their girl marrying a dalit boy. But a brahmin "intellectual" comes out and apologises profusely for his inaction. But all other "intellectuals" of the EVR brigade keep a deafening silence.

My question to the NBs(excluding dalits) is this. Do you think dalits are to be condemned for ever to be in the bottom of the caste totem pole? If so why do deliver long winding lectures on public platforms about casteism and brahminism? You are all hypocrites. Brahmins are better. They atleast dont kill,or burn.

 

[palindrome]

renus,

this is current day tamil nadu. let me give you my take on this.

the girl divya belongs to the vanniar community, who have now 'discovered' themselves, to tbe the warriors of the three tamil kingdoms, and hence 'rulers' of the land. ilavarasan is a dalit. both agree that they are 100% descendents of ancient tamils. unfortunately both communities are among the bottom most rung of the economic and social ladder, with the vanniars marginally above the dalits.

the dalits, pockets of them, have made progress, thanks to affirmative actions, general sympathetic attitude of the society, and their realization that the key to prosperity is education and hard work and organization. in a village, the dalits provided the labour class, hired on will, and discarded by the land owning classes, whereas the vanniars, were marginally better. not much.

so there is a jealousy brewing from the vanniars, particularly, when vanniar girls appear to prefer non vanniar boys (zzzounds familar ?).

so all it takes in a small village, is to rouse the 'gouravam' of the girl's father, who not able to take the hulabaloo created by the relations, committed suicide. the periyarists and the marxists, always on the side of the dalits, took up the opposing cause. and all it needed was someone to light up a charged fuse, with the vanniars did, on their annual meeting at mahabalipuram on chitra pournami day.

not that intercaste marriages dont happen. in fact lots do. but there is a strict hierarchy. if one takes a daughter from a 'superior' caste - as in this case - there is no issue (for the dalits but issue for the vanniars). we have heard complaints here, and elsewhere, that when tambram girls marry NB, they are welcomed, because it gives a 'respect' to the boys' family. the girl's family should be 'ashamed' because of loss of face. it is a reality phenomenon in tamil nadu. so usually when this happens, the girls' family moves away

so, your post based on logic, decency, common sense, and above all on the premises, that love between two people, is their own affair, is simply not true, afaik, in india.

in india, if a hindu wants to marry a muslim or xtian, he has to go through a formal government application and process. i think in malaysia too, if anyone wants to marry a malay muslim, they should convert to islam. in india, atleast there is no insistence on conversion to hinduism. JJ tried to bring a bill to ban money induced religious conversion, but had to back out, in the face of onslaught from the muslims, xtians, leftists, periyarists and civil libertarians.

hope this somewhat explains. pls let me know if you need a further purvey of my views on this

ps..the mainstream DMK ADMK are mum on this...because all the mid level castes ie nadars, naickers, gounders, thevars, vellalars, are lined up with the vanniars against the dalits, if not publicly, atleast in spirit (and funding)...vote bank politics. these middle castes are the real ruling power in today's tamil nadu, and while paying lip service to periyar and abolition of caste, they do it only so far as keeping the brahmins out of any share of tamil nadu socio politics.

in turn, they (middle castes) screw the dalits whenever possible, and it is only thanks to Central Government and strong enforcement, that dalits have been able to atleast make the headway they have made. the dalits still have a long way to go.

the upliftment of the dalits has an economic consequence. it is very difficult to find labour to till the land and feed the rural factories, owned exclusively by the middle castes. also, it deprives them of someone to kick around - everyone apparently likes to have someone below to boss around. the dalit youths dont take insults by keeping mum any more. they have learned to hit back

tambrams, while largely observers, have to side with the dalits, and speak out against caste hierarchies. especially the sankara mutts, but i doubt that would happen. i think. the casteism is often termed as 'brahminism' and it is a thin line between accusing someone of brahminism and accusing a brahmin. these are emotional times in tamil nadu.

A very well written post. Agree with everything except paragraphs from the PS part onwards. I suppose my views on this are well known so i wont have to repeat. Just a few observations though.

Am yet to note since when did gounders (who are self-claimed 'velallars'), a vellalar, a kallar (thevar ?), a nadar, a naicker (vanniyar?) consider one another equal in caste to each other. Am also yet to note since when did these extend support to one another in the name of caste.

As for kicking around, let me give an example. My parents have a gardener (a brahmin from UP) and a maid (a local tamil). Both get kicked around more or less equally (depending on who does not do a given job well). Since many have come and gone so very frequently before the current gardener, mom does not remember the current gardener's name (calls him 'hindivaadu').

Am not really sure rural industries have time to kick people around based on caste. It is an art to remember names and people well. As also to treat them well.

Also, perhaps, you are not aware, those who tilled the land previously are almost always its owners now.

Casteism is suppression based on caste (occupation) which results due to arrangement of castes (occupation) in an hierarchical scheme from highest to lowest (so is untouchability and the system of 'outcastes'). The hierachical scheme has its roots in the Varna model of social organization (wherein varna was superimposed on jati; by bringing and representing all jatis under a varna). So yes, sir, its not wrong to say casteism is brahmanism. Everyone in the subcontinent practices this brahmanism, irrespective of social strata, language and religion.

Thankyou sir.

 

[kunjuppu]

.. So yes, sir, its not wrong to say casteism is brahmanism. Everyone in the subcontinent practices this brahmanism, irrespective of social strata, language and religion.

Thankyou sir.

absolutely right here...casteism and brahminism especially in current tamil lexicon is interchangeably used.

we as brahmins, as i said, have to caution, because, also in current tamil lexicon, the professional brahmin haters (quite different from the supposed Brahmin Bashers here ) like the DK outfits, use it to their advantage, and confuse decent tamilians.

i would like to term myself as anti casteist, but as i said, the line between brahmins & brahminism is a thin one. i am a brahmin by caste birth, but no way would i apologize for anything even remotely associated with brahminism (aka casteism).

but i do care about the hindu heritage and its rich culture. unless i term myself as a hindu, i cannot take ownership or appreciation of those, deep within me.

it is very much like the whites i know...none of them are overtly religious, but they have a deep pride in the western civilization and its achievements. and all of them 100% without blinking an eye, would also accept its warts such as slavery, racism and colonialism. in my eyes, that only makes these guys better humans.

which is why, i dont understand why the brahmin members here do not accept the warts of the past imposed by manu. these are dirt from which when we cleanse ourselves, we become only better humans.

 

[kunjuppu]

palindrome,
re your post #12

only two points...

your servant from UP irrespective of caste, will only be a servant. and being out of state is with even less 'respect' than the locals. that is a reality of india today.

re all the middle castes, yes there is hierarchy here too..but intermarriages do not cause bloodshed here. much like iyers iyengars...no one likes it, but easier to accept as both are brahmins. that would be, my opinion, and i may be off base.

all i know, is from a nadar friend, villager, that the favourite pastime when she was a youth, for the males was to chase the dalits around. ilayaraja has also written about this, and he came from nearby village as my friend. the gounders nadars shared the village well, but dalits not allowed. again this, from my friend, who also, had a (un)healthy dose of anti brahmins (when things went wrong she blamed the brahmins) .

i used to point this out, and she always shrugged it off. but then the brahmin girls she kept company were the urban convent educated ones, and her rural upbringing and english accent was an open invitation for 'mockery' with the crowd, she tacked on, and the resultant complex appears to be self inflicted. now she is in england, and speaks like a polished englishperson. time, it changes. everything.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

It is better for brahmins to keep out of such skirmishes between other caste groups. The brahmins have enough problems of their own. It looks like this particular issue is politically engineered. PMK is not much different from other dravidianist political parties.PMK gained ascendany when they could protect the interest of vanniyars and few other caste groups by procuring separate quota for them. However, when they moved away to larger issues, they lost political support. Therefore, they are trying to create an environment wherein they can lock in the support of vanniyars. That is all.

 

[kunjuppu]

It is better for brahmins to keep out of such skirmishes between other caste groups. The brahmins have enough problems of their own. It looks like this particular issue is politically engineered. PMK is not much different from other dravidianist political parties.PMK gained ascendany when they could protect the interest of vanniyars and few other caste groups by procuring separate quota for them. However, when they moved away to larger issues, they lost political support. Therefore, they are trying to create an environment wherein they can lock in the support of vanniyars. That is all.

i agree.

considering the reality of today, including the poor quality any brahmin leadership, and also their inability to project themselves and the acceptability of such, across the wider tamil community, i would tend to agree with KB's sentiments here.

considering the strong feelings and harsh words thrown around, the last thing we want, is it to be turned towards us. probably we would get bashed from both sides in the end.

essentially, there was goodwill for PMK from other groups, as the vanniars are really in large numbers, and really economically in poor shape.

compare this to the nadars, who were in a similar position a few generations ago. by stint of hard work, group organization and using their numbers for political clout, they are today, if i am correct, on par with gounders and naidus, re overall prosperity. they have comfortably moved into the middle class with entrepreneurship as their tool of choice, and now, into the fields of professionals and education.

the nadars did all this with self help, their own organizations including banking. that kamaraj gave them an encouraging hand is known, but it was in no way, the scale and magnitude of today's reservations and subsidies. i say that only due to my admiration of this group, after all, 100 years ago, their women were not even permitted to cover their tops, in the erstwhile travancore cochin. what a progress!! and i had close nadar friends when i grew up

perhaps, had Ramadoss, continued on his initial mission, as a social leader, and without getting involved in politics, he could have given uplift to the vanniars along the same manner. oh well!!

but my heart still weeps for the young couple. what wrong did they do, but fall in love? only those who have loved and lost, i guess, would know. having experienced neither, i guess, i can only imagine the depth of the loss. oh well!!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

absolutely right here...casteism and brahminism especially in current tamil lexicon is interchangeably used.

The same tamil lexicon defines தமிழர் as பார்ப்பானல்லாத பறையனல்லாத தமிழ் சாதி. So tamil lexicons cannot be taken as gospel of truth!!!

If casteism is suppression based on one's occupation, then the problem discussed here is not a casteism problem. After all, we do not even know what occupation did Ilavarasan do!

 

[palindrome]

absolutely right here...casteism and brahminism especially in current tamil lexicon is interchangeably used.

we as brahmins, as i said, have to caution, because, also in current tamil lexicon, the professional brahmin haters (quite different from the supposed Brahmin Bashers here ) like the DK outfits, use it to their advantage, and confuse decent tamilians.

i would like to term myself as anti casteist, but as i said, the line between brahmins & brahminism is a thin one. i am a brahmin by caste birth, but no way would i apologize for anything even remotely associated with brahminism (aka casteism).

but i do care about the hindu heritage and its rich culture. unless i term myself as a hindu, i cannot take ownership or appreciation of those, deep within me.

it is very much like the whites i know...none of them are overtly religious, but they have a deep pride in the western civilization and its achievements. and all of them 100% without blinking an eye, would also accept its warts such as slavery, racism and colonialism. in my eyes, that only makes these guys better humans.

which is why, i dont understand why the brahmin members here do not accept the warts of the past imposed by manu. these are dirt from which when we cleanse ourselves, we become only better humans.

what is hindu heritage sir?

 

[palindrome]

palindrome,
re your post #12

only two points...

your servant from UP irrespective of caste, will only be a servant. and being out of state is with even less 'respect' than the locals. that is a reality of india today.

re all the middle castes, yes there is hierarchy here too..but intermarriages do not cause bloodshed here. much like iyers iyengars...no one likes it, but easier to accept as both are brahmins. that would be, my opinion, and i may be off base.

all i know, is from a nadar friend, villager, that the favourite pastime when she was a youth, for the males was to chase the dalits around. ilayaraja has also written about this, and he came from nearby village as my friend. the gounders nadars shared the village well, but dalits not allowed. again this, from my friend, who also, had a (un)healthy dose of anti brahmins (when things went wrong she blamed the brahmins) .

i used to point this out, and she always shrugged it off. but then the brahmin girls she kept company were the urban convent educated ones, and her rural upbringing and english accent was an open invitation for 'mockery' with the crowd, she tacked on, and the resultant complex appears to be self inflicted. now she is in england, and speaks like a polished englishperson. time, it changes. everything.

Did gounders who shared the well with nadars, in this particualr village, claim to be vellalars? Just curious (since i think the gounders started claiming to be vellalars rather recently). Also, which were the dalit castes in that village? Pallar?

As for the point in bold, wannabe kshatriyas or those who imagined themselves to be kshatriyas had to keep certain people ('dalits') out in order to be recognized as kshatriyas. This job manu had ordained for kshatriyas in order to maintain heirarchical supremacy (aka brahmanism) -- with brahmins posted at the highest end of the pole, kshatriyas second highest, vaishyas third, shudras lowest, and everyone else who were inimical to this scheme outcasted as dAsas.

All this was discussed in this thread: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7318-wikipedia-article-about-kerala-iyers-7.html (page 7 onwards). However, i would like to be more precise now. The problem is with Smartism, not Brahmanism. That is, by those who created, upheld and still uphold smritis as THE way of life for all 'hindus'. Its not just mutts, the varna scheme of hierarchical order has political support from the hindutva lobby too.

If violence could help certain people position themselves as brahmins (kshatropetabrahmanas ie., kshastriyas who claimed brahmin descent), then why would it not motivate other groups to do the same? Violence was the way of Manu, who imo was a spineless paedophile of the afghan origin (taliban) gene. Not suprisingly there are so many similarities between the taliban rule and the dharmashastras.

Those who uphold smartism are in my view unhealthy people. Irrespective of where they think they originate from, or belong to. Irrespective of whether they think they are 'iyer', vellalar, 'dalit, or whatever else.

 

[palindrome]

essentially, there was goodwill for PMK from other groups, as the vanniars are really in large numbers, and really economically in poor shape.

PMK may have succeeded in creating a casteist feeling and a shared vanniyar belonging amongst its members or cohorts; from rural to urban. However, when it comes to violence, as this, i think most educated folks (banded 'vanniyars') shrug away from that vanniyar belonging.

I think this case is enough to put PMK in deep sh*t.

compare this to the nadars, who were in a similar position a few generations ago. by stint of hard work, group organization and using their numbers for political clout, they are today, if i am correct, on par with gounders and naidus, re overall prosperity. they have comfortably moved into the middle class with entrepreneurship as their tool of choice, and now, into the fields of professionals and education.

the nadars did all this with self help, their own organizations including banking. that kamaraj gave them an encouraging hand is known, but it was in no way, the scale and magnitude of today's reservations and subsidies. i say that only due to my admiration of this group, after all, 100 years ago, their women were not even permitted to cover their tops, in the erstwhile travancore cochin. what a progress!! and i had close nadar friends when i grew up

While Kamaraja Nadar helped 'his people', am not sure how it helped all nadars economically. I wud attribute the rise to their own individual hardwork and entrepreneurship.

Methinks the term "Nadar" is a very generic one. The term is applied to people of various origins, all the way from former untouchables to certain former zamindars.

In colonial period, social mobility was possible to the extent we cud only dream of now. One example is that of komatis. Although many komatis are former jains (hence vegetarians since a very long time); in some areas, meat eating traders of various origins gave up meat, claimed to be komatis and got themselves banded into 'arya vaishyas'. Such upward social mobility existed all over the subcontinent.

The creation of caste associations (whose main job those days was to petition for 'kshatriya' or 'vaishya' varna since all were banded 'shudras') helped the case of individual social mobility too. Families (or different origins or cultures) could give up certain practices and enlist in a caste association to be recognized as a 'higher' caste, as komatis, nadars, gounders and so on.

Caste associations were not without controversy. For example, some people (of recent tribal origin) gave up beef-eating and claimed to be Vanniyars; but some other vanniyas did not accept their claims. Yet it was not possible to stop people from becoming part of a caste. Sometime back we had a friend on this forum who said he ate rats and yet claimed to be gounder.

In the Colonial period members of tribal groups converted into castes via peasantization process. Moreover, terms such as gounder, naidu, nadar, are mere titles -- they are not castes. Am not sure there are statistics indicating the prosperity (whatever that means) of nadars, gounders, naidus (whatever those titles mean to any individual).

People like Ramadoss are social parasites who use caste for vote bank politics. If PMK activists are booked in this murder case, i do not think the party founder should be spared. He should be booked for abetment of murder.

Just my thots.

 

[sangom]

The same tamil lexicon defines தமிழர் as பார்ப்பானல்லாத பறையனல்லாத தமிழ் சாதி. So tamil lexicons cannot be taken as gospel of truth!!!

If casteism is suppression based on one's occupation, then the problem discussed here is not a casteism problem. After all, we do not even know what occupation did Ilavarasan do!

Why have Paraiyans been excluded? Can I have the details of the lexicon containing this definition?

 

[kunjuppu]

palindrome,

hope i can combine all my responses. it is not much, as i have stated all that i know

hindu heritage for me is appreciation of the great temple of thanjavur, feeling ownership of ponniyin selvan, the feel of the kalpathi car festival, the feel of the kapali temple atmosphere and the 63 nayanmar procession as well as the ther festival, sekkizhar, kamban, bharathiar, rameswaram, tamil saivism etc.

it is my feeling, that any lover of tamil can appreciate most of the above, but a tamil hindu has a sense of 'handed down heritage' to these things. that is the best i can explain. it is a personal thing.

re sociology of the castes, i dont know. all i know in the village, kombai, where my friend lived, these things happened, and i dont talk or probe into those things. people say stuff, and i note it down in my memory. and occassionally it comes out during a post. that is all.

re PMK, i would imagine after this incident, they would be in big do-do. except that tamil nadu politics has no shame or morals. quite possible DMK might make overtures, considering that ADMK is bent on continued arrest of kaduvetti guru, and indemnation for the damages in marakkanam village.

let us see, how the tamil society deals, once the shock and sadness wears off.

incidentally, the face book postings of the opponents show no remorse. and just yesterday a caste society was inaugurated in dubai - yes non brahmin & non dalit...all other tamil middle castes. the polarization is for the time being appears complete.

but, still i have not heard, and it does not mean that it has not happened, the progressive voices of middle caste youths, condemning this incidents. the only youths i see in facebook or blogs, are the diehard casteists, and boy, these really use vicious words and promise vicious actions. wow!!

no wonder, the dalits were screwed, with these type of attitudes.

we might now want to remember, that things like kilvenmani, did not happen at random. it is based on generations of domination and hatred and contempt. attitudes i am familiar with, my own family of previous generation, but not the violence. today venmani is peaceful but only after the perpetrator was murdered, it was felt, that justice was done.

thyagu, who went to jail for 15 years for this revenge, acted as a naxalite. today he is a tamil nationalist, calling for an independent tamil nadu, with links to eelam. i dont know if ilavarasan death would rally certain tamil groups towards tamil nationalism, and provide it with a shot in the arm.

the blogs and facebook is active on this front, with organized activity coming from these folks. not the leftists.

 

[kunjuppu]

ayutha-ezhuthu-05-07-2013-thanthi-tv.html

here is a debate yesterday in thanthi tv about this.

participants - g.ramakrishnan cpi(m), vadivel ravananan PMK, and badri seshadri publisher and also a tambram. in facebook, one comment made was badri was mild and did not come out strong.

here is full quote from badri blogspot today..interesting readnig of someone who is active in tamilnadu literary intellectual circles.

இளவரசன் - திவ்யா - விடுதலைச் சிறுத்தைகள் - பாமக
நேற்றி இரவு தந்தி டிவியில் ‘ஆயுத எழுத்து’ விவாதத்தில் மார்க்சிஸ்ட் கம்யூனிஸ்ட் கட்சியின் தமிழக மாநிலச் செயலாளர் ஜி. ராமகிருஷ்ணன், பாமக மாநில பொதுச்செயலாளர் வடிவேல் ராவணன் ஆகியோருடன் நானும் கலந்துகொண்டேன்.

இளவரசன் மரணம் குறித்த சர்ச்சைதான் தலைப்பு என்றாலும் விவாதம் பெரிதும் பாமகவின் நிலைப்பாடு குறித்தே நிகழ்ந்தது. முக்கியமான சில விஷயங்களைப் பற்றி மட்டும் இந்தப் பதிவில் குறிப்பிடுகிறேன்.

வடிவேல் ராவணனின் முக்கியமான குற்றச்சாட்டு, வட மாவட்டங்களில் விடுதலைச் சிறுத்தைகள் கட்சியுடன் தொடர்புகொண்ட பறையர் இளைஞர்கள் முக்கியமாக வன்னியர் பெண்களைக் குறிவைத்து அவர்களைக் காதல் நாடகம் என்ற வலைக்குள் வீழ்த்தி, அதைக் கொண்டு பணம் பறிக்க முற்படுகிறார்கள் என்பதே. இம்மாதிரியாக வட மாவட்டங்களில் ஒவ்வோர் ஊரிலும் பத்து பத்து வழக்குகளையாவது காணலாம் என்றார். இதுமாதிரியான நிகழ்வுகள் தென் மாவட்டங்களில் நடப்பதில்லை என்றார். தேவேந்திரகுல வெள்ளாளர்கள் எனப்படும் பள்ளர்கள் பல சாதிகளைச் சேர்ந்தவர்களையும் திருமணம் செய்துகொண்டு பிரச்னையில்லாமல் இருக்கிறார்களாம். ஆனால் வட மாவட்டத்தில் பறையர்கள்தான், அதுவும் குறிப்பாக விடுதலைச் சிறுத்தைகள் கட்சியுடன் தொடர்புள்ளவர்கள்தான் மேலே குறிப்பிட்ட பணம் பறிக்கும் செயல்களில் ஈடுபடுகிறார்களாம்.

முதலில் ஒரு குறிப்பிட்ட சமூகத்தைச் சேர்ந்த, ஒரு குறிப்பிட்ட இயக்கத்தைச் சேர்ந்த என்றெல்லாம் குறிப்பிட்டார். நான் நேரடியாக, ‘நீங்கள் யாரைச் சொல்கிறீர்கள், விடுதலைச் சிறுத்தைகளையா?’ என்று கேட்டேன். அதற்கு, ‘விடுதலைச் சிறுத்தைகள்தான்’ என்று தெளிவாகச் சொன்னார்.

இதே விடுதலைச் சிறுத்தைகள் கட்சியுடன் பாமகவுக்கு நல்ல கூட்டணியும், அதையும் தாண்டி இரு கட்சியின் தலைவர்களிடமும் நெருங்கிய உறவும் இருந்ததே, அப்போதெல்லாம் இதுபோன்ற நிகழ்வுகள் நடக்கவில்லையா, கடந்த ஓரிரு வருடங்களில்தான் இதுபோன்ற நிகழ்வுகள் நடக்கின்றனவா என்று கேட்டேன். முன்னும் இதுபோன்ற நிகழ்வுகள் நடந்துகொண்டிருந்தன, ஆனால் நல்லுறவு வேண்டுமே என்ற காரணத்தால் உறவைத் துண்டிக்காமல் இருந்தோம் என்றார்.

சரி, திவ்யா-இளவரசன் விவகாரம் இப்படிப்பட்டதுபோலத் தெரியவில்லையே, எந்த இடத்திலும் திவ்யா அவ்வாறு குற்றம் சாட்டவில்லையே என்றேன். இல்லை, இந்த திவ்யா-இளவரசன் உறவும் நாடகக் காதல்தான்; இங்கேயும் ஐந்து லட்ச ரூபாய் கேட்டார்கள்; இரண்டு லட்ச ரூபாய் கொடுக்கவும் பட்டது என்றார் வடிவேல் ராவணன்.

***

இவை மிகவும் காட்டமான குற்றச்சாட்டுகள். ஃபேஸ்புக் பக்கத்தில் வைக்கப்படும் இதேபோன்ற குற்றச்சாட்டுகளைத் தாண்டி நேரலைத் தொலைக்காட்சியிலேயே ஓர் அரசியல் கட்சியின் பொறுப்புமிக்க தலைவர் இதுபோன்ற குற்றச்சாட்டுகளை வைத்திருக்கிறார். இவற்றில் எந்த உண்மையும் இல்லை என்றும் தம் கட்சி இதைப்போன்ற செயலில் ஒருபோதும் ஈடுபடவில்லை என்றும் சொல்லவேண்டியது விடுதலைச் சிறுத்தைகள் கட்சிக்கு அவசியமாகும்.

தனி நபர் செயல்பாடுகளை ஒரு சமுதாயத்தின்மீதும் ஒரு கட்சியின்மீதும் ஏற்றி, சதித்திட்டம் தீட்டப்பட்டே இம்மாதிரி செயல்களில் ஒரு குறிப்பிட்ட மக்கள் ஈடுபடுகின்றனர் என்று ஆதாரம் இன்றிச் சொல்வது அபாண்டமானது. உண்மையிலேயே இம்மாதிரியெல்லாம் நடந்திருந்தால் அவற்றைத் தொகுத்து ஒரு வெள்ளையறிக்கையை ஏன் உங்கள் கட்சி வெளியிடக்கூடாது என்று வடிவேல் ராவணனிடம் கேட்டேன். பாமக அவ்வாறு செய்யுமா என்று பார்ப்போம்.

இளவரசன் - திவ்யா என்ற இரு தனி நபர்களின் காதல், இவ்வளவு பெரிய கொடுஞ்செயலாக இரு சமூகத்தின்ரிடையே பகைமையைத் தூண்டும் அளவுக்கு மாறியிருப்பது மிகவும் பயம் தரக்கூடியதாக இருக்கிறது.
POSTED BY BADRI SESHADRI AT 10:56

 

[Delhi6]

Also, perhaps, you are not aware, those who tilled the land previously are almost always its owners now.

Although its tangential to the main discussion, but have land reforms been this successful in Tamil Nadu?