Imbalanced Criticism of India by those who left India , NRI, PIO, OCI ....

[sravna]

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I think we need to separate the country from the people. One's love of his country needs to be unqualified, above any criticism. Criticism doesn't make sense because in our culture relationships are sacrosanct and rise above the concrete entities that represent them. You don't criticize mata, pita, guru or deivam. I think the wisdom in making relationships sacrosanct needs to be appreciated. Every important relationship symbolizes certain finer aspects and so requires our respect. For example mother represents love and affection. By valuing relationships you are deferring to those higher aspects and that will keep you in good stead.

What you can actually be critical of given this framework of the higher aspect, is the concrete entity which represents it. So you are bound to be constructive in your criticism and are never likely to be imbalanced.

 

[prasad1]

I think people praise/blame a country according to their own experience. Like the saying goes, “our country is where we are well off”.

Indians want to pursue greener pastures – green pack and green card J but their heart still beats for India. For them, there is a like/hate relationship with India depending upon the circumstances.

The situation is quite different for the (Indian) generation which is born outside India and lives outside India. For them, India is just another country. No sentiments, no commitments.

Siva,
I have different experiences. People I know 2nd and even 3rd generation pio's do treat their ancestral country as their country of origin. They may not have the same passion as the immigrant, but they still value the culture, religion, and some even language. I have friends here who have never visited India, but speak fluently in Gujarati.

I have american (italian) friends who even display mannerism of, and still speak Italian at home. I guess it depends on the bonds of the immigrant to their country of origin, and how that is conveyed down the generations. In various part of USA India day is celebrated and American Born Desis participate. There reasons may be different than mine.

The president of the temple in town is 2nd generation American Born. He is very familiar with Pujas speaks good Telegu and has strong connection with Tirupathi Temple.

A Kid a son of my friend has moved to India as the head of an MNC.

 

[suraju06]

Ozone in 149.

Dear Sri suraju06,
Your post #147. A harmless question if you will. I apologise if this hurts you.
You say you were a staunch atheist, but kept your mind open always. By Staunch and Open, you mean it was a flip, and not gradual change to a believer?

Dear Ozone,

Absolutely no need to be apologetic about your question. Nothing external to me hurts me. I was a staunch atheist at a particular point of time in my search of knowledge. That came early in my life. As I progressed further in my journey I was only getting only validations which went to make my atheistic convictions stronger. But at some point there were no more validations. There were rather strong inputs which were completely opposite to my strongly held atheistic convictions. It took some time to accept them in a complex mental thought process involving testing each fact on a touchstone of reason. That was what I meant. It was not a flip or glib change. It was rather painful and time consuming. All that will take a complete book to explain if it is to be explained.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

I think we need to separate the country from the people. One's love of his country needs to be unqualified, above any criticism. Criticism doesn't make sense because in our culture relationships are sacrosanct and rise above the concrete entities that represent them. You don't criticize mata, pita, guru or deivam. I think the wisdom in making relationships sacrosanct needs to be appreciated. Every important relationship symbolizes certain finer aspects and so requires our respect. For example mother represents love and affection. By valuing relationships you are deferring to those higher aspects and that will keep you in good stead.

What you can actually be critical of given this framework of the higher aspect, is the concrete entity which represents it. So you are bound to be constructive in your criticism and are never likely to be imbalanced.

Dear Sravna:

1. Your first sentence above is quite complex: How do you really separate the country from the people? Only the people make the country!

2. This Thread uses "Imbalance" as the KEY word... and is a very subjective matter obviously.

3. I certainly believe that as a NRI (on student visa F-1 or work visa H-1 or scholar visas J-1 etc) you need to behave as the "Good Ambassador" of your home country: Tactically highlighting the "good" aspect of the home country, and avoiding very many obvious " problems"!. Lol

4. But, once you have given up your citizenship voluntarily, then you are a different person legally and morally. You CAN clearly articulate your REAL comprehensive view of your former country of citizenship.

You don't have any burden of being "the Good Ambassador", I think.

5. Those PIOs who have emotional attachment to the SMELL, SIGHTS & SIGHTS of the Mother "LAND" need to go back to enjoy all those attributes, IMO.

Why do they stay thousands of miles away from their Mother "LAND" if their feelings are really genuine?

I suspect they don't have genuine feelings for the Mother "LAND" as they say.

It's all empty rhetoric!!

Cheers.

 

[tks]

Fond memories of my host family

Dear Sri TKS Sir,

I came to this country in 1970. I had a host family assigned to me, who are a wonderful large Catholic family, living on a farm outside the city where I was attending the University.

Over the years I have become close to this family and they are invited to all our important functions and they religiously come.

Because of them wanting to know the place where I come from, they have been to India twice, and visited my hometown. While they love the culture, they do not like the crowded conditions in the city. They always tell me they can understand how I am, who I am. They even today do not see me as an American.

Even at work all these years, as an immigrant, my coworkers always understand that I am a product of a mix of American and Indian cultures.

Ethnic diversity with the underlying common fabric provided by this country's culture is the strength of this country. Because America does not tell you not to bring your mother land's culture with you.

Regards,
KRS

Sri KRS Sir -

Your post brought fond memories of my own 'host family' as well as memories of the first month when I had landed in USA. Let me share some experience playing Ambassador of India LoL

When I arrived in USA I had very little knowledge of significance of our traditions . There were not many Indian born students then in the mid 70s at my school.

I ran into a few other IIT students on landing in USA at my school- Two from IIT Madras, one from IIT Kharagpur, and I was from IIT Kanpur. We were all TB types- two Iyengar and two Iyer family boys. None of us had any experience in cooking though one claimed to know how to cook. We decided to share a house/apartment. As we were walking on the road to find the apartment, a car stopped on the road and a big dog inside the car put its head out and barked at us. We were just amazed that the dog was taking a nice ride in a big boat of a car . This happened twice with another car and one of my friend was kidding that 'hey this American dogs know to bark at Indians '

Anyway after renting a place with my new found room mates, the fellow who claimed to know how to cook said he is going to make some potato curry and rice ! He also made some nameless soup kind of a thing which was terrible.

The potatoes were not uniformly cooked and he ended to overheating the pot which created a lot of carbon at the bottom. Somehow he stirred the whole thing and it was one of the most awful preparation I had ever tasted. In the mean time the landlady came to get something (she and her husband lived down below) and our proud new cook invited her for lunch (it was a weekend day).

My friend served a generous portion of rice and this curry. It seems she had never tasted any Indian food and was in her early 30s. There were not that many Indian restaurants then. She took a bit into her mouth and we were all watching he facial expression carefully . She said 'delicious' though her face did not seem to agree with the statement .. Poor woman !LoL

My other friends said - if she likes it then let us give the whole thing to her in Tamil.

We did not realize she was trying to find a reason to compliment us ! Anyway she never again accepted another invitation to taste Indian food.

It was funny episode but I thought most Americans we ran into were very nice and generous people.

Some time later I was assigned a host family. They were nice people and invited me to their home and then to a party. I was told by some that I should take something like wine or something. I dont drink even today and also did not have transportation to go anywhere to buy anything. Let me provide a background below as to what I ended up taking with me.

A few weeks earlier as I was packing to come to USA my mother and father were arguing what I should take with me. They are no more now. We were allowed one suitcase and $8 that we get at the airport as foreign exchange money (one dollar was five rupees then) . My mother decided to make a

வற்றல்/ வடாம்/ அப்பளம் etc and packed all of them. My parents had argument - Am I going to study or cook those items in Oil . Any way my mother won. (She tried to make me promise like Gandhi - stay vegetarian, dont drink or smoke and look at all women like sisters - I refused to make the last promise since most fellows like me were out for conquest LoL .. I cant talk too much about this aspect for obvious reasons) LoL

Anyway I ended up taking the

வற்றல்/ வடாம்/ அப்பளம் and my host family lady created an arrangement after cooking the items. She even put a dip in the center. I asked her how she knew how this ought to be eaten and by the way what the heck is a dip ..

Any way at the party we went this item became a hit. ​

Overall the family was impressed I could speak flawless English!!



​

 

[tks]

My point was only to correct the misleading impression tks left that for Hinuds the idols are simply symbols, they are not, to a large majority of Hindus. It may serve as a symbol for some, but for most it is what I presented.

All -

If one is stuck in binary logic then it is easy to make statements like this. Often such statements tend to only reveal the level of understanding of a poster.

There was no talk about "large majority" or small minority of Hindus on my part. All Hindu rituals are based on symbolism but if many do not understand that it is fine.

 

[sravna]

Dr. Y said: Dear Sravna:

1. Your first sentence above is quite complex: How do you really separate the country from the people? Only the people make the country!

Allow me to give this example. Consider your father or your son. Also consider a person unrelated to you. Would your response towards them be the same for all their actions towards you? I think obviously not. You would not disown your son or your father as you would a third person for something untoward done to you. So you are separating the relationship from the person. The point is your relationship implies that you adopt a certain attitude towards the entity with whom you have the relationship irrespective of what happens to you. For example if you are affected by the corruption in your country you don't begin to despise the country

 

[Haridasa Siva]

A person travelling/living abroad with an Indian passport would know its value. It is perhaps one of the important reasons why people take up citizenship of another (read better) country.


Indian Embassy/Consulate is another point of distress.

Experience in India vis a vis other country adds to the woes.

 

[tbs]

A person travelling/living abroad with an Indian passport would know its value. It is perhaps one of the important reasons why people take up citizenship of another (read better) country.


Indian Embassy/Consulate is another point of distress.

Experience in India vis a vis other country adds to the woes.

hi hari,
i agreed with u....the distress of indian embassy/consulate.....its very sad story of indian embassy experiences in washington dc
in usa....they treat americans differently.....indians are treated very badly,,,even no parking lot for embassy...its sad story...
better american passport than indian passport holder.....american passport holder easily visa stamped...its my personal
experience......no commitments/no emotional/no stings attached...

 

[renuka]

hi hari,
i agreed with u....the distress of indian embassy/consulate.....its very sad story of indian embassy experiences in washington dc
in usa....they treat americans differently.....indians are treated very badly,,,even no parking lot for embassy...its sad story...
better american passport than indian passport holder.....american passport holder easily visa stamped...its my personal
experience......no commitments/no emotional/no stings attached...

TBS garu,

I know the word No Stings attached must be a typing error but I cant help thinking of this when you are referring to the word STING.


वृश्चिकस्य विषं पुच्छे मक्षिकायाश्च मस्तके ।
तक्षकस्य विषं दन्ते सर्वांगे embassy च ॥

 

[suraju06]

TBS garu,

I know the word No Stings attached must be a typing error but I cant help thinking of this when you are referring to the word STING.


वृश्चिकस्य विषं पुच्छे मक्षिकायाश्च मस्तके ।
तक्षकस्य विषं दन्ते सर्वांगे embassy च ॥

Renuka,

That was a nice one coming from you. Only a Doctor can say "sarvaange" while talking about an embassy.

 

[Nara]

All -

If one is stuck in binary logic then it is easy to make statements like this. Often such statements tend to only reveal the level of understanding of a poster.

There was no talk about "large majority" or small minority of Hindus on my part. All Hindu rituals are based on symbolism but if many do not understand that it is fine.

When we present arguments we expect a reasoned response. I felt tks left an impression that Hindu idols are only symbols, which is not true. For a vast majority of Hindus the idols are not symbols, but the actual presence of the god of the image. I presented my reasoning for this position.

If tks did not intend to leave that impression he could have just said that, or just ignored me. Instead, he proclaims I am stuck in what he calls binary logic, and that my reasoning only reveals my level of understanding, by which he obviously means a level lower than his own.

All this is very conveninet, self-serving, and snobbish. Instead of commenting on my level of understanding it would be better if a counter argument is presented showing why what I was saying is wrong. That is the way to have an exchange of ideas. Unilaterally and in a sweeping way putting down the other POV only stiffles exchange.

Cheers!

 

[tbs]

TBS garu,

I know the word No Stings attached must be a typing error but I cant help thinking of this when you are referring to the word STING.


वृश्चिकस्य विषं पुच्छे मक्षिकायाश्च मस्तके ।
तक्षकस्य विषं दन्ते सर्वांगे embassy च ॥

hi renu,
nice sloka lah.....thanks

 

[Haridasa Siva]

hi hari,
i agreed with u....the distress of indian embassy/consulate.....its very sad story of indian embassy experiences in washington dc
in usa....they treat americans differently.....indians are treated very badly,,,even no parking lot for embassy...its sad story...
better american passport than indian passport holder.....american passport holder easily visa stamped...its my personal
experience......no commitments/no emotional/no stings attached...

If this is the situation at the Washington office, we can imagine the plight in other places. Quite disheartening. Indian Govt. does not seem to respect its citizens both inside and outside the country.

But the same Govt . (re)acts differently when a daughter of a Minister is involved. One rule for the politicians and another for the common man. How would one expect love for such a country?

 

[ShivKC]

When we present arguments we expect a reasoned response. I felt tks left an impression that Hindu idols are only symbols, which is not true. For a vast majority of Hindus the idols are not symbols, but the actual presence of the god of the image. I presented my reasoning for this position.!

so be it! whats wrong.

if one goes by the definition of god as 'all powerful, omnipotent ,omnipresent', then he must be having the power for himself to manifest in a stone/idol.

i dont find any thing wrong with the citing of the practice of vast majority in india

 

[C RAVI]

so be it! whats wrong.

if one goes by the definition of god as 'all powerful, omnipotent ,omnipresent', then he must be having the power for himself to manifest in a stone/idol.

i dont find any thing wrong with the citing of the practice of vast majority in india

Dear Shiv,

Adding to your above post, I would like to highlight the fact that, manifestation of spiritual energy into a stone/idol is requested to the Supreme being, representing certain spiritual energies, in a specific vedic ritual by way of "Avahanam" after installing the idol.


To have the spiritual energy manifested in some entity, a specific form is designed as a "symbol" of the supreme being representing the desired spiritual energy. This "symbol" of spiritual energy is what we find as an idol of the deity in a temple.

So, as Shri Tks has said, all the idols are "symbols" of specific deity who represents specific spiritual energies and bestows his grace upon his devotees.

Having an energized "SYMBOL" in a form of idol, devotees consider such symbols/idols as GOD himself and worship the symbol with respect and devotion.

For devotees as believers of GOD there is nothing called a mere symbol or a mere idol BUT a powerful spiritual energy of the God, conglomerated in a specific form that would bestow his mercy and grace upon the devotees.

Thus, it is perfectly correct to state that "SYMBOLS" are what believers recognizes as visible spiritual projections in the forms of enegized idols and worship them.


As above in the spiritual sense, where a symbol is the one with specific qualities that makes a person revere it with his/her belief, deep within him/her, similarly, a National Flag as symbol of Mother India with her own unique qualities, rich heritage and values, penetrates deep within those people, with a sense of reverence and emotional attachments, who all could value and respect Mother India.

A person in any part of the world without a temple of Lord Hanuman would visualize hanuman in his/her mind and would revere and worship him deeply in his/her heart. Likewise NRI's, PIO's are many who could honestly value and revere Mother India, without dwelling in her lap. It all just depends on what one feels honestly within onself, both in spiritual and wordly sense.

Considering such feelings with sense of value and respect as stupid jingoism and sentimental idiotism would reflect one's arrogancy.

 

[biswa]

better american passport than indian passport holder.....american passport holder easily visa stamped...its my personal
experience......

Well essentially, better to be NRI than I, as many have figured out. But things are slowly changing.

 

[prasad1]

Well essentially, better to be NRI than I, as many have figured out. But things are slowly changing.

In defense of Indian foreign services "babus":
THEY ARE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY OFFENDERS.
Except for the people with connection.
In DC, to get visa they have outsourced the process. It is little better than before.

 

[tks]

All

In my Post #143 I shared an experience of my son. Let me quote that and ask a question..

My son when he was in 5th grade was asked a question like - "Hey I heard you guys worship monkeys and elephants .. Can you tell me why". Since the question was not made to mock he tried to answer. The teacher in the class heard that and asked him to explain to the class as a whole next day. If there is interest I can summarize what he said though that may be off topic for this thread....

My point is that though he is an American he answered in a way that made people view positively about India without making things up

Actually he was in 7th grade (12 year old then) when this question was asked. Before I share some points that he prepared with our help and delivered to the class next day I want to ask our members how you would advice an Indian/Hindu child put in a spot like this to answer

 

[C RAVI]

All

In my Post #143 I shared an experience of my son. Let me quote that and ask a question..



Actually he was in 7th grade (12 year old then) when this question was asked. Before I share some points that he prepared with our help and delivered to the class next day I want to ask our members how you would advice an Indian/Hindu child put in a spot like this to answer [/COLOR]

Shri tks,


I was waiting curiously for a long time that some one here as parent would try to answer you from parent's POV to help an Indian/Hindu child who is put in a spot of the sort, you have indicated in your post#143.

Unfortunately, much to my disappointments, no one have come forward yet.


It would be nice if you come up with sharing your experiences here with us as how could you take up the challenge, what all were your efforts and at last how and what you could explain to your son, for him to present his side before his class mates and teacher, positively.

 

[prasad1]

Shri tks,


I was waiting curiously for a long time that some one here as parent would try to answer you from parent's POV to help an Indian/Hindu child who is put in a spot of the sort, you have indicated in your post#143.

Unfortunately, much to my disappointments, no one have come forward yet.


It would be nice if you come up with sharing your experiences here with us as how could you take up the challenge, what all were your efforts and at last how and what you could explain to your son, for him to present his side before his class mates and teacher, positively.

I can see this as a separate thread.


Since all things are a creation of God.
Hindus do not worship plants and animals but see divinity in all living things and plants and animals hence occupy an important place in Hinduism.

Do Christians worship the cross? No it is revered as a symbol.

 

[ozone]

.
Hindus do not worship plants and animals but see divinity in all living things and plants and animals

Dear Sri Prasad,
I am not sure what you refer to here by worship, but both plants and animals
do have significant place in our Pooja and Prayer - e.g., the tulasi plant, Peepal Tree, Cow etc.,

 

[prasad1]

I agree that in the context of practice we do puja to tree & plants. Are the trees and plant the only God, no we pray through them to God who is omnipresent.
We also use flowers and leaves as an offerings. There will be very many explanations, mine is one.

Similarly we do puja to Elephants, and cows, but we know they are not the only representative of Brahman.

Contrary to popular belief in the West, Hindu deities are not "individual gods", indicating a polytheistic faith. They are, rather, different representations of particular aspects of the one god, the source, known as Brahman. The "human" or physical representation of Brahman's aspects or attributes in the form of deities is a vehicle for the devotee to focus his or her attention, devotion or meditation on that particular aspect or attribute in a form more easily visualized and held in the mind.

Hindu Deities & Their Meanings


Animal Deities

Hindus see divinity in all living creatures. Animal deities therefore, occupy an important place in Hindu dharma. Animals, for example, are very common as form of transport for various Gods and Goddesses.Animals also appear as independent divine creatures.


http://www.helium.com/items/561466-understanding-the-concept-of-god-in-hinduism

"Hinduism is a difficult religion for an outsider to understand. Wrapping your head around gods that belong to one god, divinity in all creatures and things, and an all encompassing energy can be confusing. The important thing to realize is that Hindu's are constantly striving to seek the highest power of spiritual knowledge. Striving to be God himself through enlightenment is a key objective, and although there may be thousands of separate gods, there is only one God, Brahman."​

 

[tks]

I can see this as a separate thread.


Since all things are a creation of God.
Hindus do not worship plants and animals but see divinity in all living things and plants and animals hence occupy an important place in Hinduism.

Do Christians worship the cross? No it is revered as a symbol.

Sri Ravi Avl -

Thanks for prompting me - have been too busy with work life to do justice. If you open a new thread I will share my experience with this and other such situations. I am sure there are many here that will too. If there is no thread let me respond over the weekend ..

 

[C RAVI]

Shri TKS,

I shall wait for you to share your experiences with all of us here. As you said, here or in a new thread if that comes to exist.

Thank you for your assurances. One's you could be in a position to spare your time, please let us know how you could handle the challenging situation as a parent to elaborate to your son and what/how he explained about Hindu's Worshiping practices to his teacher and class mates, without leaving any negative remarks.