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India-Indonesia

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I am copy-pasting a mail off my inbox for members knowledge and observations, if any:

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Bali is a state of Indonesia , a secular country with the biggest Muslimpopulation in the world. But the majority in the state of Bali , over 93 %, are Hindus. Bali is home to 4.22 million Hindus whose ancestors had to flee from other islands of Indonesia , after the great Indonesian Hindu Empire Majapahit was defeated and most of Indonesia was converted to Islam. Here are some interesting facts about Bali that every Indian Hindu must know.[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]
1. Nyepi day, a day of total silence (mauna) once a year, when even the Ngurah Rai International Airport of Denpasar is closed from 6 am to 6 am. No cars, no traffic, no entertainment, no TV. Sit in the house, do contemplation, do prayers. Can we introduce that Nyepi Day in our noisy country?
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2. The culture of Bali was begun by the Rishis of India, whose names are no longer taught in the schools of India but which are common in the schools of Bali-Markandeya, Bharadwaja, Agastya - the names we hear in the Puranas but they are part of the way the history of Bali is taught in the schools of Bali . How many Rishis can you name? Do you remember any one of the 402 names of the Rishis and Rishikas (female Rishis) from the Rig Veda (the most ancient and most sacred text of Hinduism), which are our ancestors and the forming fathers of our religion - Vaidika Sanatana Dharma?
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3. The national Balinese dress for both, men and women, girls and boys, is Dhoti. No one can enter a temple without wearing a Dhoti. Except in some parts of South India, Dhoti is laughed at in India today. Why are we so ashamed of our heritage? Even most Indian priests change their dress after they are finished with the worship because they feel ashamed in a Dhoti??
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4. The social, economic and political system of Bali is based on the principle of tri-hita-karana.three benevolent, beneficent principles- that every human being has three aspects .the duty, the relationship that we have with God [Parahyangan]; the relationship that we have with human beings [Pawongan]; and the relationship that we have with nature [Palemahan] and these are the three principles on which the entire culture of Bali is built. This was all established by the Rishis whose names are just about forgotten in India which are taught in the schools of Bali .
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[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]5. Trikala Sandhya (Sun worship three times a day) is practiced in every Balinese school. The Gayatri Mantra is recited by every Balinese school child three times a day. Many of the local radio stations also relay Trikala Sandhya three times a day. Can we even think of introducing something like this to our schools in India ? How many Indian Hindus are aware of their duty of Trikala Sandhya? It is as central to our religion as the 5 times Namaz is to Islam, yet?[/FONT]
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6. In the year 1011 AD, at a place which is now known as Purasamantiga. there was the first interreligious conference of three religions: Shaiva Agama, Bauddha Agama and Baliyaga, the traditional pre-Buddhist, pre-Hindu, Balinese religion. The scholars and the leaders sat down and worked out a system by which the three religions should work together and exchange forms with each other and that is the religion of Bali today.
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7. In Bali every priest is paid by the government. Despite the fact that Indonesia is a secular country with the biggest Muslim population in the world, the priest of every religion is paid by the government so every religion is supported by the government. That is the Indonesian form of secularism. Can we even think of this in India ?
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8. The national motto of Indonesia "Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. One is many, many is one." is inspired by an Indonesian Hindu scripture Sutasoma Kakavin. The complete quotation is as follows - "It is said that the well known Buddha and Shiva are two different substances; they are indeed different, yet how is it possible to recognize their difference in a glance, since the truth of Buddha and the truth of Shiva are one? They may be different, but they are of the same kind, as there is no duality in truth." Why can't we have "Ekam Sad Vipra Bahudha Vadanti" (The truth is one, but the wise express it in various ways - Rig Veda) as our national motto?
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9. Bali is one of the world's most prominent rice growers. Every farm has a temple dedicated to Shri Devi and Bhu Devi (Lakmi the Goddess of wealth and mother earth - the two divinities that stand on the either of side of Tirupati Bala ji in India ). No farmer will perform his agricultural duties without first making offerings to Shri Devi and Bhu Devi. That is called culture, that SubakSystem. The agricultural and water irrigation plan for the entire country was charted in the 9th Century. The priests of a particular water temple still control this irrigation plan. And some World Bank or United Nations scientist did a computer model that would be ideal for Bali . And when they brought the model the Balinese said 'we have been practicing this since the 9th century. What are you bringing here?' And I don't know how many million dollars these WTO, these World Bank people,United Nations people, spent on creating that chart which was already created in the 9th century without any computers.. and that Subak System still continues. Such systems were in place in various parts of the country. Its remnants are still visible here in India . I have visited areas where there is no water for miles due to drought, yet the well at the local temple still provides fresh water.
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10. In Bali Hindus still don't read a printed book when they perform Puja (worship). They read from a Lontar, which have traditionally been scripted by hand on palm leaf. When they recite the Ramayana Kakavin.where the book is kept, worship will be performed. There is a special ritual of lifting the sacred book, carrying it in a procession, bringing [it] to a special place,doing the bhumi puja, worshipping the ground there and consecrating the ground, then placing the book there. Then the priest will sit and recite the Ramayana.
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[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]When I was called to Bali it was to teach and preach the Vedic teachings. But I came back with a humble realization that I have to learn more from Bali than I can actually teach them.
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[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]- Facts according to Swami Veda Bharati, a great master of meditation from the Himalayan Tradition
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Brilliant stuff ! yes, our tradition is well & alive in Bali !!. By the way, the Balinese dance is a variation of Bharata Natyam :
 
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5. Trikala Sandhya (Sun worship three times a day) is practiced in every Balinese school. The Gayatri Mantra is recited by every Balinese school child three times a day. Many of the local radio stations also relay Trikala Sandhya three times a day. Can we even think of introducing something like this to our schools in India ? How many Indian Hindus are aware of their duty of Trikala Sandhya? It is as central to our religion as the 5 times Namaz is to Islam, yet?



I guess becos most Hindus are under the impression that Sandhyavandanam is for only Twice Borns...so it is up to the Hindu Authority in India to pass a Fatwa that Sandhyavandanam is for everyone.

If certain class of people are not even supposed to recite the Gayatri Mantra so dont be surprised that he/she will prefer Namaz 5 x than to perform Sandhyavandanam!LOL
 
Brilliant stuff ! yes, our tradition is well & alive in Bali !!. By the way, the Balinese dance is a variation of Bharata Natyam :

Dear JK,

Lets give some credit to the Balinese too...they too have their own culture.
The dance could have had Hindu influence but with strong local flavor.

We Indians excel claiming everything to be Indian/Hindu with at times total disregard to other's native and local culture.

You know Balinese love to eat pork? So are you going to say that is also Hindu culture??
 
Dear JK,

Lets give some credit to the Balinese too...they too have their own culture.
The dance could have had Hindu influence but with strong local flavor.

We Indians excel claiming everything to be Indian/Hindu with at times total disregard to other's native and local culture.

You know Balinese love to eat pork? So are you going to say that is also Hindu culture??

What culture? That is loose word.

The Vaishya idea is that intermarriage occurred between Indian traders/merchants and Indonesian natives. Another theory (Kshatriya) believes that defeated soldiers from India found solace in Indonesia. Third, the Brahmana take a more traditional point of view that missionaries spread Hinduism to the islands. Lastly, the nationalist (Bhumiputra) theory is that Indonesians chose the culture themselves after having traveled to India.

Balinese Hinduism lacks the traditional Hindu emphasis on cycles of rebirth and reincarnation, but instead is concerned with a myriad of hyangs, the local and ancestral spirits. As with kebatinan, these deities are thought to be capable of good or harm. Balinese place great emphasis on dramatic and aesthetically satisfying acts of ritual propitiation of these spirits at temple sites scattered throughout villages and in the countryside.

Since the 16th century, Hinduism in Bali has developed somewhat in isolation from its roots in India, at the same time absorbing a variety of elements from the pre-Hindu indigenous religion of the island. These two factors shaped a distinc-tive form of Hindu life and practice in the islands, whose Hinduism is a blend of SHAIVISM, Bud-dhism, and ancient ancestor worship. The deity SHIVA is primarily associated with the ancestors of kings; consistently with the indigenous religion of Bali, Hindus there do not distinguish between the ancestors of rulers and the gods. The Balinese do not hold to the vegetarian dietary practices of India; instead, they eat such foods as beef, pork, and dog.

Unlike in India, the gods of Balinese Hinduism are not seen as dwelling in their images; they live atop the great volcano Gunung Agung, which is identified with Mt. Meru, considered the axis of the world in many stories of traditional Hindu-ism. During worship and festivals the gods are called down from the mountain to enter their statues and the masks worn by celebrants. When the worship or festival ends, the gods return to their abode.

There is great variations in Hinduism even in India. I have been saying it to accept the diversity within Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma), instead of claiming Cultural Purity for few.
 
My opinion is that the Sun shines for every one. There are other people who do it even today. The planets and elements do not divide us. But we are as confused as ever.
 
In India too, what we call 'hinduism' (worship of certain gods of tribal or agamic or tantric origin) developed from tribal roots: Tribal Roots Of Hinduism - Shiv K. Tiwari - Google Books So also the agama religion of Bali.

This dance and chant is native (not sure how those who harp on 'hinduism' of the indian kind, can take credit for it): BALI: Exotic Kecak Cult Monkey Dance Ritual - YouTube (the monkey chant was originally a trance ritual and the ramayana was added to it).

The Kecak ritual comes in variations and combinations. This one involves only males (see the man in trance): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGXcnWUqV-Y
 
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Hi Renuka,

It is documented by western & eastern historians that Chola kings conquered many islands in South East Asia including Indonesia/Bali & propagated our religion. These are based on the inscriptions in these lands.

I did not write this history, so all I am stating is a fact. Just watch Balinese dance & Bharata Natyam (a simple youtube search will do), make your decision.

Grantham script is written on all Bali, Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia etc.. temples & they are all in Sanskrit. Ramayana is written extensively on these temples/inscriptions. That’s how Ramayana is known in Bali, Thailand etc..

To clarify, I have no interest to claim others as our achievement.

Cheers,
 
when all researchers are saying Bali religious practices comes from south India, someone writes – dance & chant are native? What is this native business??? LOL !!! Where did Sanskrit originate from ???. How come it is written on these temples?? Where did Ramayana come from ?? Pl get the history/facts correct !!
 
Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

Are you saying that ALL Bali Hindu religious practices came from South India? Is it your claim that what they practice today has no component of their native religion before Hinduism came there?

Do you also claim that their dance is a pure descendant from Bharat Natyam. No influences at all from their native dance, and dance forms from the likes of China and Middle East?

Regards,
KRS
when all researchers are saying Bali religious practices comes from south India, someone writes – dance & chant are native? What is this native business??? LOL !!! Where did Sanskrit originate from ???. How come it is written on these temples?? Where did Ramayana come from ?? Pl get the history/facts correct !!
 
Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

Are you saying that ALL Bali Hindu religious practices came from South India? Is it your claim that what they practice today has no component of their native religion before Hinduism came there?

Do you also claim that their dance is a pure descendant from Bharat Natyam. No influences at all from their native dance, and dance forms from the likes of China and Middle East?

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS,

Not at all – I am definitely not saying there is no local contribution. There is a significant influence from the local culture, hence Balinese is a variation, but the Origin is Bharata Natyam. Infact the Balinese themselves will tell you that its origin is in the south indian dance form.

Cheers,
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

They have different dance forms for different occasions.

From what I have read, their temple dances borrowed from our Mudhras, but in a limited fashion, and they have tai-chi element as well as other elements to them. Same with the religion. Though it is called 'Hinduism', the foundation is very different. We have already talked about their diet.

From my view point, this is exactly what the other posters were saying. They never have said that there was no Indian influence. Yet you went off the ramp, criticizing them. May I ask why?

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS,

Not at all – I am definitely not saying there is no local contribution. There is a significant influence from the local culture, hence Balinese is a variation, but the Origin is Bharata Natyam. Infact the Balinese themselves will tell you that its origin is in the south indian dance form.

Cheers,
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

They have different dance forms for different occasions.

From what I have read, their temple dances borrowed from our Mudhras, but in a limited fashion, and they have tai-chi element as well as other elements to them. Same with the religion. Though it is called 'Hinduism', the foundation is very different. We have already talked about their diet.

From my view point, this is exactly what the other posters were saying. They never have said that there was no Indian influence. Yet you went off the ramp, criticizing them. May I ask why?

Regards,
KRS
Dear KRS,

I only responded to Renuka’s post where she mentioned we Indians have the habit of claiming others as our achievements. I only responded to that. Also someone else made a point that chant & dance are native which implies there was NO Indian influence, which is not correct when it comes to the Balinese Dance form. Hence my post.

Cheers,
 
Okay, thanks. I would advise that you quote the relevant portions of others posts that you are responding to, so people understand the context.

Regards,
KRS




Dear KRS,

I only responded to Renuka’s post where she mentioned we Indians have the habit of claiming others as our achievements. I only responded to that. Also someone else made a point that chant & dance are native which implies there was NO Indian influence, which is not correct when it comes to the Balinese Dance form. Hence my post.

Cheers,
 
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palindrome,

As you stated this might have had Ramayana influence later. Let us just let it go at that, Sri Jaykat767 Ji has acknowledged the various influences. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS


I think Jaykay refers to my post # 8 here. The Kechak 'dance' and chant is native Balinese. Jaykay767 should produce proof which south indian art form it is derived from?
 
when all researchers, Balinese themselves claim they are from south india, no point in arguing. Pl read history, you will get enough proof. Sanskrit/Grantham script is all over Bali & its influence is evident. those who claim otherwise should produce proof why it is native ?. for eg, if any other native Indonesian tribe not claiming they are from south india should have a similar dance form etc.. & shows more closeness to Balinese than Bharata Natyam, then it can be taken as a proof.
 
Oops KRS sir, I don't think JayKay is only acknowledging various influences. Maybe he travelled to Bali, or maybe to Java also, and chatted with natives there. Moreover, Jaykay claims "all researchers" (and i wonder who is that), say stuff he says. So he wants to pass off his claims as those by "all researchers". Oh my, i must :hail::hail::hail: at all the historical proofs he is giving, what with all those Trojans/Brahmins/Greeks LOL:flypig:
 
when all researchers, Balinese themselves claim they are from south india, no point in arguing. Pl read history, you will get enough proof. Sanskrit/Grantham script is all over Bali & its influence is evident. those who claim otherwise should produce proof why it is native ?. for eg, if any other native Indonesian tribe not claiming they are from south india should have a similar dance form etc.. & shows more closeness to Balinese than Bharata Natyam, then it can be taken as a proof.
So please produce proof from which south indian art form the Kechak chant and 'dance' is derived?
 
Well Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

I thought you misunderstood. Looks like you did not. Palindrome has a valid point. Please prove your point.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear KRS,

Here you go:

Surapsari, an accomplished performing artist specializing in Asian sacred dances will present traditional dances from south India, Java and Bali. Throughout Southern and Southeastern Asia, dance has been performed as offering to deities as well as a medium for divine energy and a process for spiritual enfoldment. These regional dances were profoundly influenced by ancient Indian culture and developed in individually unique ways, reflecting their own cultural values and traditions. Surapsari's performance examines the differences and similarities among Balinese, Javanese and Indian dances in historical context and multicultural perspective, to reveal the esoteric principle that lies in each dance form. Indra, Surapsari’s husband and Balinese performing artist as well will offer a talk after each dance presentation, to assist the audience members to deepen their understanding of the spiritual meaning of the dance.

Sacred Dances from India to Bali - AnythingArts.com

Cheers,
 
Okay, but what about the Kechak dance form that is in question?

Regards,
KRS


Dear KRS,

Here you go:

Surapsari, an accomplished performing artist specializing in Asian sacred dances will present traditional dances from south India, Java and Bali. Throughout Southern and Southeastern Asia, dance has been performed as offering to deities as well as a medium for divine energy and a process for spiritual enfoldment. These regional dances were profoundly influenced by ancient Indian culture and developed in individually unique ways, reflecting their own cultural values and traditions. Surapsari's performance examines the differences and similarities among Balinese, Javanese and Indian dances in historical context and multicultural perspective, to reveal the esoteric principle that lies in each dance form. Indra, Surapsari’s husband and Balinese performing artist as well will offer a talk after each dance presentation, to assist the audience members to deepen their understanding of the spiritual meaning of the dance.

Sacred Dances from India to Bali - AnythingArts.com

Cheers,
 
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