Is karma yoga practically possible?

[sarang]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Ha ha! Only last week a chemistry lecturer was asked by a senior official to evaluate an computer answer sheet and give a good grade for re-evaluating a failed candidate.

No place is safe for the kakasura!!!

Dear Murari,

If at all you find it too hard to practice Dharma in your current set up trying Lecturing in a university or college on Accounting.
This is just as a last resort.

 

[Raghy]

Sri velukkudi krishnan gave a simple explanation. what is mandated in dharmasastras must be done; what is rejected must not be done. When no mention is made, consult elders.

kanchi periyavar has dealt this in detail in deivathin kural. Karma must not conflict with dharma; that is the essence.

Sri. Sarang, Greetings.

Dharmasastras don't really have answers for Sri. Murari. He is willing and ready to follow dharma; his question is, how can that be done effectively? What he did not say aloud was How can that be done effectively 'When others are not willing to follow?' That is a very valid question. So, just following dharma satra is not the answer. Kanchi Periyaval did not give any specific answer for that. More over he was more focused on how to follow the 'nithya karmanushtas'. He did not address any issues like Sri. Murari brought here.

So, the question is not quite answered yet.

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Dear Mr.Murari, Mr.Raghy and other fiends,

You all are correct in that we are not able to give Mr.Murari the correct practical
advice.

In my opinion, the answer lies with him. I have not compromised because I do not
have any commitments and I am spiritually inclined. I am satisfied with whatever
I get and my living style is simple - rice and rasam and butter-milk with appalam
is enough for me.

I do not know about Mr.Murari. If he is married and has responsibility to educate
his children so that they can equip themselves for decent living, he has to earn
to meet the ever-increasing cost of essential items and provisions, house rent
or cost of a flat and children's education ( with capitation fees ). A medical seat
will cost you around rs.30 to 50 lcs, other expenses llike fees, cost of books extra.

A professional or a senior executive is caught between the owners on the one
hand , the corrupt practices prevailing allround, his personal commitments and his conscience.

One has to choose. If he wants to be honest, he has to get reconciled to simple
living. No owner wants an honest man; he wants to maximise his profits , in
addition to kickbacks to swell his purse. So an honest man is fired.

I have worked in senior positions in various industries and as a consultant and
I know these fellows in and out.

More later.

 

[nandhalala]

hi tamil bramins

 

[renuka]

hi tamil bramins

Hi Nandalala

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Murari, Greetings.

I can think of one other option though. But I do not know how well it would suit your circumstances. You may consider employment in an overseas country like Gulf Countries or some of the reasonable other countries. ( Not to Canada or any other country where your qualifications may not recognised by the employers over there). You need not worry about corruption like you face in India. You may also earn enough money to provide reasonably well for your children and family. Who knows, this may very well a sign for you to start seriously on the Karmic Yoga.

I sincerely wish, everything would work out for you.

Cheers!

 

[murari1970]

Non Attachment is where the act is preformed just as a duty and not for any personal gain.
Here again many might argue that "in that case when we work we are gaining our salary"

In work we get our salary cos that's the Dharma of the employer to pay his employee or in case of self employed individuals..its just Dharma to get Halal returns for our effort.

I don't understand what you are trying to mean? Non-attachment = perform just duty with out any personal gain. Again you say it is the dharma of the employer to pay salary. If he doesn't do his dharma - not paying salary!! - what happens? See any religious teaching should be able to be followed, otherwise it will be only intellectual gymnastics among few people who has read a lot.

 

[murari1970]

Yes I get what you mean...even I am sometimes branded as a doctor who does not know how to keep the patients happy and patients have left cos I refuse to do abortions,refuse to sell medical certificates,refuse to give false medical reports,refuse to certify unfit individuals for commercial vehicle licence..lists can go on and on.

The result of this is...I earn less than many of my friends out here.

So you have to be brave to face that fact that you might earn less.

Don't worry God will not let anyone down who follows Dharma.

If you are helping the client to evade tax that means you are contributing indirectly to the loss of income tax for the country and you know the consequences.

Some might feel that if only one accountant thinks this way..it is not as if all economic problems in India will be solved but there is always a start.

The very fact that you are asking this question that means you feel something is not right.

So strengthen yourself..be prepared to earn less.

Thanks for your encouraging words.

 

[murari1970]

It becomes a sin for a butcher when he charges his clients more for the meat or cheats in the weight and does not declare his Taxes!!!LOL

I feel religion is quite clear that the food we lay on the table for family to eat should be got by dharmic means.

These days many claim that they resort to Undharmic means to support family.
I am not talking about those in dire straits..I am talking about people like you and me.

We have no excuse to feel that we might resort to Adharma to support family.

I think you have not answered my last paragraph. Whether the yardstick is same for a butcher and an accountant?

 

[murari1970]

Breaking rules like taxes, ownership etc set by the king or the government is not a sin; it is breaking the rules and will invite punishment from the king/ government. Today's tax rate may be 100%, tomorrow the the law may reduce it 20%. So, one can use filters to differentiate sin and breaking of law.

For e.g, sometime back, one cannot buy or consume alcohol in tamilnadu, but can do that in pondicherry or bangalore. Drinking is not a sin but illegal in some places just one km apart.

karma and dharma are intricate.

Dear sir,

Your reply is quite interesting. Distinguishing between legal and moral. What I understand from your reply is all immoral activities are illegal and sin (I don't like the term "sin" but like to call it as an "error") but all illegal things need not necessarily be immoral and sin. Am I right, sir?

I would like to know what our learned members think about this?

 

[murari1970]

Sri. Murari, Greetings.



Saving tax dollars for your client where it is legally allowed is not adharmic. In fact that is your dharma. But, if the same client asks you to prepare bogus documents in order to claim tax exemptions, then if you do it, that would be adharmic. (I once had an experience.. that time I was running a business, accounts maintained by the 50% non-participating share holders. This accountant slipped in some paperwork which actually left all my assets to the company! Lucky for us, my wife noticed it and sensed something not right in that document; although we signed it, it came back for bit more fine tuning and my wife kept is safely away in our custody. Well, one fine morning the share holders informed me the company, there by, the share holders own my meagre properties which was not included in the company assets earlier. When I asked them how, they said I signed my assets for the company and one of them actually smirked! I asked them to produce that document.... well, 1 week later, paid them off and kicked them away!). That kind of action from the accountant would be adharmic. But, most accountants can legally save a lot of money for their clients and still stay along the right side of the law. My accountant wouldn't do a thing unethical; he would flatly refuse. But would get as much benefit as possible. That tax saving advices cost a good deal of money. That should be your dharmic income, i suppose.

I am a small fry. This is what I do.... I just pay my taxes and just not bother about the money. I can afford that. When I needed more money to help the young family grow, just opted for more overtime, took a second job, lived on shoe- string budget etc.

I can take more mortgages, buy many more houses and collect more rental income and spend much money for repairs and maintanence to reduce my tax bill and still develop my portfolio at the cost of the government. There is nothing adharmic about that either. In fact, that's exactly what my accountant is asking us to do, the bank keeps asking us to do. I could do all that, still live without attachments.

In my opinion, self-less and non-attachment is, still doing whatever we do at its best, earn as much as possible without getting greedy and without getting into the wrong side of the law. But always remembering, we came to here with nothing, will carry back nothing. The whole lot in between is just transient and should be treated as such.

Learned members of this forum would be guiding you much better than this.

Cheers!

I wish that I will be your accountant!!! What a nice client I would have and an easy job at hand.

Here I would like to impress upon that I am not talking about me only - myself is just a sample case out of this present society - but also other professionals like lawyers, business people, employees etc. I know that the truth is the same whoever it may be. But in this competitive and costly world, is karma yoga a feasible way? That's I am wondering.

 

[zebra16]

I wish that I will be your accountant!!! What a nice client I would have and an easy job at hand.

Here I would like to impress upon that I am not talking about me only - myself is just a sample case out of this present society - but also other professionals like lawyers, business people, employees etc. I know that the truth is the same whoever it may be. But in this competitive and costly world, is karma yoga a feasible way? That's I am wondering.

Sorry.... I have not read all the previous posts. My understanding is that you are disturbed with unethical professional conducts that one is compelled to do that it may not be possible to be karma yogi. My thoughts are as follows (I am afraid I may be adding a bit more of confusion).

1. Karma yoga is the next stage after one has developed Ishwara arpana buddhi, i.e. surrendering the fruits of all actions to the Lord, and accepting what ever be the return as Ishwara prasadha.

2. I do not think anyone would be offerring immoral or illegal gains to the Lord as Ishwara arpana and hence such a performer has not yet reached the stage of karma yogi.

3. As long as you yourselves have not done any illegal/immoral act/deed and have brought out the illegality/immorality to your client, I think you should be in clear, both morally and legally. Remember even with Vidhura, Dronacharya et all being present in Duryodhana's court, illegal/immoral acts did take place. These acharyas were not made accountable either in the courts of the kingdom or by Krishna.

4. You will get as many opinions from members as are participating, but I doubt you can get convincing reply.

5. The best solution would be to approach your religious preceptor (who has good knowledge of Dharma) with all humility, explain the situation, seek his advice and act accordingly.

6. It may also happen that his advice may not be acceptable or implementable. For eg. he may say you are in Dharma-viruddha profession and may ask you to switch over to some other job or vocation and you may not be able to make the changes.

7. I know of a few persons who had to forego a lot of their earnings and social prominence because they chose to move away from the guilt-stricken dual life they had to live everyday because of demands for unethical/illegal/immoral behaviour their profession sometimes demanded.

Regards,

 

[murari1970]

It is not so hard isn't it.
Yes..you might earn less...the choice is yours.

You caught me by collar!!!

But it's a big decision. As a family man, I need the support of my family. Needs to be curtailed or tailored to suit the new life.
Not sure.

But think from this angle. Let me take a hard decision to abide by dharma. In my profession, it's very hard to sustain. Then go for employment, there also face the same thing. Quit. Will it lead to renunciation?

But the bigger question is, is it a practical way for spirituality?

 

[murari1970]

Dear Mr. Murari,

Yes, I understand your predicament. First of all, let me say that karma becomes
karma yoga when you do the karmas without expecting any rewards and treating
them as an offering to the Lord. Then the fruits of the karma do not add up to
the stored up karmas - no aagami.

This appears to be simple, but quite complicated. This advice was given by Lord
Krishna to Arjuna who was wavering and who was confused about the morality
of the war against his own own relatives and Masters. He was advising Arjuna
to do his svadharma as applicable to a kshatriya. The Mahabharata war was
the only way to regain the rights of Pandavas since even the efforts of the Lord
failed.

Ours is a day-to -day war. We are in a decaying society with eroded moral
values. Even if you are right and have run your affairs in tune with the law of the
land, the current bunch of officers demand bribe. Otherwise they will put you
into untold hardships. They will find silly mistakes and ask you to correct them
and come back. The amount of time and money you spend is considerable,
not to speak of the mental agony.

Under these circumstances, the choice is between the two paths - fall in line
with the current practices or stay upright and fight it out. It has its own pros
and cons. Your employer will tell you to close the chapter by giving the money
demanded.

The people in general have lot of regard for the honest persons and they will
give you respect. You may get your things done provided you stay the course.
Often times your employer will compromise since a businessman is interested
in making money by any means. He is afraid of the skeletons in his cupboard.

If you stay uptight , you will succeed in the end , but it all depends upon your
own compulsions and circumstances.

This is my personal experience in professional life. Others may or may not
agree.

Thank you sir, for your kind advice.

 

[murari1970]

Dear Sri Murari,

As I have told in my earlier post, I do not posses adequate knowledge to offer advise on spiritual doubts What I write here is my understanding of life and from reading books by great souls who had spent their life in search of truth. Hereunder I give websites of two Great masters Jiddu Krishnamurti and Shivapuri Baba who had dealt the subject of Right Living. Kindly go through the same.
Jiddu Krishnamurthy on Right Living, How to Live without a conflict

Weekly Inner Work from Inner Frontier

As for me I am guided by my conscience which discriminates right and wrong when ever I take a decision. It is up to the individual to follow or reject guidance of one's conscience. There are many learnered members of the forum who would also give their opinions in the matter which will be of help to us.
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Thank you sir for your reply. I have read quite a few JK's materials. He is quite against any organised belief systems and even meditation has a very different meaning in his dictionary. He accuses the conditioned mind for most of the evils of the society.
Very interesting man. I will go through the website.

 

[murari1970]

Sri. Ranganathan said -



Greetings.

Sri. Ranganathan high lighted a very valid point about the reality of practising a profession in India. He is right. It would be really hard for Sri. Murari to stay honest to the core, expect his clients to stay honest to the core and face the corrupted officials. If everything is hunky and dory, then there is no concern. But that is not the case.

So, how to follow Karma Yoga in that circumstances? Where would Sri. Murari find that extra money to pay to make sure of his children get a proper education and get the basic comforts? Sri. Murari should not compromise his children's future for the sake of his policies & principles.

Sorry, I have no answer. In Mahabharata, when all else failed, Krishna did few naughty deeds to get the Pandavas across. What does that tell us? I really look forward some input from learned members.

Cheers!

Sir, you just echoed my feelings. It is quite easy to tell - lead a righteous life, reduce your needs, live within your means and all that. I have come half a way in life - 42 - and in a very crucial stage of life. Pls remember that my case is only a sample one and 90% of the society are in the same boat. The problem is they are not ready even to think whether they are right or wrong. Let me see where this thread leads!!! Thanks.

 

[murari1970]

Dear Mr.Murari, Mr.Raghy and other fiends,

You all are correct in that we are not able to give Mr.Murari the correct practical
advice.

In my opinion, the answer lies with him. I have not compromised because I do not
have any commitments and I am spiritually inclined. I am satisfied with whatever
I get and my living style is simple - rice and rasam and butter-milk with appalam
is enough for me.

I do not know about Mr.Murari. If he is married and has responsibility to educate
his children so that they can equip themselves for decent living, he has to earn
to meet the ever-increasing cost of essential items and provisions, house rent
or cost of a flat and children's education ( with capitation fees ). A medical seat
will cost you around rs.30 to 50 lcs, other expenses llike fees, cost of books extra.

A professional or a senior executive is caught between the owners on the one
hand , the corrupt practices prevailing allround, his personal commitments and his conscience.

One has to choose. If he wants to be honest, he has to get reconciled to simple
living. No owner wants an honest man; he wants to maximise his profits , in
addition to kickbacks to swell his purse. So an honest man is fired.

I have worked in senior positions in various industries and as a consultant and
I know these fellows in and out.

More later.

Sir, I am only a sample case and I believe that most of us are sailing in the same boat. If not, atleast the present society is like this and consider me as a face of this society. If we are going to live the life of a monk or mendicant, it's ok altogether a different question and the answer is easy. Is society at large is going to accept and practice this?

 

[murari1970]

Sri. Murari, Greetings.

I can think of one other option though. But I do not know how well it would suit your circumstances. You may consider employment in an overseas country like Gulf Countries or some of the reasonable other countries. ( Not to Canada or any other country where your qualifications may not recognised by the employers over there). You need not worry about corruption like you face in India. You may also earn enough money to provide reasonably well for your children and family. Who knows, this may very well a sign for you to start seriously on the Karmic Yoga.

I sincerely wish, everything would work out for you.

Cheers!

Thanks for your suggestion, sir. But I request you to please address my question in the context of society at large.

 

[prasad1]

Sir, I am only a sample case and I believe that most of us are sailing in the same boat. If not, atleast the present society is like this and consider me as a face of this society. If we are going to live the life of a monk or mendicant, it's ok altogether a different question and the answer is easy. Is society at large is going to accept and practice this?

Spiritual journey is an individual journey. Economic prosperity is a social journey. Sometimes they support each other but at other times they hinder.

Depending on your priority you can give importance to one or the other. If the country has to progress, there has to be individual sacrifice. If majority by some miracle (or a big stick) decides on the path of righteousness, then country will progress at much greater pace.
I am in USA where you do not have this problem at our level even in professional level. It is probably much different in India.
That is why Anna Hazare, and Ramdev are disingenuous, because corruption in India is endemic. You have to eradicate at the core level.

 

[itsmesiva]

Taking the famous example... Karnan killed so many people in the battle field... Uyir kolai nu paathaa its wrong, but Dhuryodhananuku senjottru kadan nu paathaa its right... so as Karma Yogi, he didn't worry about former part while he was trying to satisfy latter part... Am I inferring this correctly?

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Murari, Greetings.

I think, there may be an answer for you. I was thinking about your question; at 3 in the morning, I think, I had the answer. I am typing this in the early hours of the morning.

I think your answer is in Mahabharata. In fact I wrote the answer first and then I asked the question!

Lets's take your role description. In the business world, you represent your clients. I am sure your clients would be involved in legally accepted activities, only face the cut throat competition and the generally corrupted officials. You are also responsible for the welfare of your family, relatives and your close community. In a way they all are your clients too.

Your dharma is to work for your clients. If it takes few short cuts to achieve the benefits for your clients, so be it. You should just go ahead and do it. As long as you are not attached to it, you will still stay in Karma Yoga. You should refrain from owning any fruits from those actions and any blames from those actions. You should refrain from indulging in any pleasures from that kind of money. Let me explain - I enjoy my drinking sessions during my breaks; Sunday night was one of those. I have no regret for that. In fact, most members here knows when I am downing my drinks; I almost sit out in the open in this forum and drink in front of everyone! But I don't even consider that as a vice! Complicated to get? Well, 'not to have attachment' is like that. Slightly complicated; but you have to listen to your consciense to guide you, to set your own rules accordingly.

Kindly listen to this song. I know you would have listened to it 100s of times before, once more wouldn't hurt.

Karnan Lord Krishna explains his actions.flv - YouTube

புண்ணியம் இது என்று உலகம் சொன்னால் அந்த புண்ணியம் கண்ணனுக்கே!
போற்றுவார் போற்றலும், தூற்றுவார் தூற்றலும் போகட்டும் கண்ணனுக்கே!
கண்ணனே காட்டினான்! கண்ணனே தாக்கினான்! கண்ணனே கொலை செய்கின்றான்!

( Punniyam idhu endru ulagam sonnaal, andha punniyam kannanukke!
Potruvaaar potralum, thootrvaar thootralum pogattum kannanukke!
Kannane kaattinaan! Kannane thaakkinaan! Kannane kolai seigindraan!)

That is part of detachment. Don't count the money you get in that way. Don't try to amass wealth in that way. Just earn enough to support your family, educate your children etc.
Importantly, when your family responsibilities are met, get out of the adharmic situation as soon as possible and take up a simple job to support you and your wife in a simple life. Seek counsel from elders, please.

Inportantly, pray and seek guidance from God... Whatever form you pray to God.

Disclaimer - I don't believe in God. But that doesn't mean God doesn't believe in me, if there is a God. Although my message sound a bit authoritative, it is not. I just typed out whatever came to my mind. I only mean respect to everyone.

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Sirs,

A friend of mine was one of the few original thinkers and was recognised as a
good economist. He was also non-compromising and never worked anywhere
at the cost of his principle. Either he was thrown out of the office or he
walked out.

In an interview, he was asked by the management the reasons for his frequent
changes in employment . He replied = yes, In half the places the management
threw me out, and in the case of other jobs, I threw them out.

During the time he was employed ( in his younger days ), there was a heated argument
between him and his big boss. The boss told him - Look Mr......., you are junior to
me by three layers in the management heirarchy. How dare you talk to me like
this ?. My friend shot back - Oh ! In that case, put all of them in between. At
least I will be saved of the sickening sight of your dirty face and silly
brain. Result : He was fired.

 

[renuka]

I think you have not answered my last paragraph. Whether the yardstick is same for a butcher and an accountant?

Awareness of right and wrong is higher for a person with a higher education.
Awareness is also shaped by our upbringing.

I assume you are a TB..so you have grown up in an environment where religion and Sattva guna has been predominant.

You yourself are uneasy with the situations you face in your job...that means Viveka mode in your mind is being activated.

So for those who have Viveka in active mode and still choose a path that is not somewhat Dharmic..technically he/she should bear heavier Karmic consequences.

So yet again the Butcher escapes lightly on technical grounds.

 

[renuka]

I don't understand what you are trying to mean? Non-attachment = perform just duty with out any personal gain. Again you say it is the dharma of the employer to pay salary. If he doesn't do his dharma - not paying salary!! - what happens? See any religious teaching should be able to be followed, otherwise it will be only intellectual gymnastics among few people who has read a lot.

If he does not pay salary that means he has strayed away from Dharma.
Straying from Dharma he has binded himself with an act which has negative consequences.
Not paying someone forms a Karmic Debt which has to be met out either in this life or in a next life.

I will give you an example I once read: Karmic Debt is like this;

Say a person does not pay his employee and cheats his employee.
In the next birth the employee was born as his wife and they went through a bitter marriage/divorce and she managed to walk away with a huge sum of his property and house and remarried someone else.
She was happy but he was devastated.
So in this birth the debt was settled.

Get it now..how Karmic debt works.

 

[murari1970]

Dear all,
Not able to check the thread due to some hectic work schedule. sorry.

I thank every one for their advice and suggestions given for my upliftment in spirituality. But I feel this thread is grossly misunderstood. I just wanted to know whether Karma Yoga is a practical way in this materialistic world and presented my case as an example. To put the question in a clear perspective, let us see what the society tries and practices in spirituality.

Take the case of bhakthi – as we are all seeing, people throng temples, churches, mosque for paying their devotion to God. They spend a lot of money in performing poojas, rituals, ceremonies, donations (Tirupathi is the second richest god in the world!!) etc. They compromise their work schedule to visit temples on various auspicious days. The degree of their bhakthi varies with majority prays for material benefits, good health, etc. etc. all being personal ones and not for the upliftment of their soul. (don’t know how many of them are aware of this concept – body & soul) but no one with true devotion and love to God. Of course elderly people go to temples with an enhanced degree of devotion as they would have fulfilled all their worldly responsibilities. Don’t know how the present “bhakthi” practiced by the society be called as spiritual marga. But any way people believe it so and continue doing that. They didn’t find it difficult as their “bhakthi” doesn’t transgress or interfers in their day-to-day life (unlike in karma yoga which prunes a lot) and it runs parallel. So the society has accepted the bhakthi marga but practice in their own way.

Another spiritual marga which is increasingly prevalent and caught the fascination and imagination of the literate, modern, young society is Jnana marga, if it can be called so which is taught in various forms ranging from simple asanas, pranayama to meditation. In this stressed world, this works out well, as it gives obvious health benefits to the practitioners. When practiced consistently it leads to mental well-being. You can gauge the popularity of this form with the growing popularity of the modern “gurus” like Jaggi Vasudev, Sri Ravishankar, Baba Ramdev and others. Again here the people are willing to compromise their work schedules to attend these classes, spend lot of money on it. Like “bhakthi”, this also doesn’t preaches much morality, but insists on practicing the sadhanas. This form has gained wide acceptance among the public (CEOs of many MNC, Scientists, doctors, top professionals have become disciples of these modern gurus and a regular visitor to their ashramas). But this form, I believe and personally experienced, gradually leads to a more sub-dued life, increases awareness, and if practiced rigorously will achieve the goal of self-realisation.

Still there are lot more to go on about the current practices which suits the modern day materialistic world which “may” lead to an ideal life of spirituality.
I request the learned members to think on Karma yoga in this back ground. Thanks for your patient reading.