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Dear Kamakshi Ji,
We have had conversations in this Forum (and I am sure in a different Forum as well), and every time I post on a topic you respond first. When I try to respond in kind, you always terminate the dialog. This has happened many times.
So, please in the future, if you do no want me to 'blow hot air', do not direct your air pump at me first. By now, after many of our coversation, I would have thought you have realized that my views are contrary to your own firmly held sectarian, illogical, but albeit passionate thoughts.
Shalom.
Regards,
KRS
We have had conversations in this Forum (and I am sure in a different Forum as well), and every time I post on a topic you respond first. When I try to respond in kind, you always terminate the dialog. This has happened many times.
So, please in the future, if you do no want me to 'blow hot air', do not direct your air pump at me first. By now, after many of our coversation, I would have thought you have realized that my views are contrary to your own firmly held sectarian, illogical, but albeit passionate thoughts.
Shalom.
Regards,
KRS
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Uttar Pradesh biggest terror hub after J&K
24 Sep 2008, 0410 hrs IST, Pervez Iqbal Siddiqui ,TNN
LUCKNOW: Every time a deadly bomb goes off in some part of India and the police begin to investigate, the road to suspects invariably leads to Uttar Pradesh, fast emerging as the biggest terror hub in the country after Jammu & Kashmir. Of the 54 major terror strikes in the country since 2000, at least 45 had a direct link with UP, which itself was rattled by 14 blasts.
As parts of the most populous state in India turn into a terror factory, it's not surprising that the two Indian Mujahideen cadre shot dead in Delhi last week belonged to Azamgarh district in eastern UP. And so are the three men arrested by Delhi Police on Sunday. In fact, almost all the suspects for the recent attacks in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi came from Azamgarh, where a manhunt is on to nab the terror suspects.
With a large number of young, uneducated and unemployed Muslim youth walking the streets aimlessly, the state has become a fertile ground for breeding terror. Terrorism, according to intelligence sources, began to grow roots in the state in 1985 when Azam Ghauri, a native of Andhra Pradesh, and Abdul Karim Tunda of UP set up a unit to provide logistics support to Lashkar-e-Taiba. Ghauri and Tunda, alongwith a Mumbai doctor, Jalees Ansari, had set off a series of explosions in the country on December 6, 1993 — the first anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition. This was the first known LeT strike in the country outside J&K. Since then almost all major terror attacks have had some UP connection.
Terror outfits from UP have made headlines in the neighbouring countries as well. On October 1, 2005, HuJI 'commander' Mufti Abdul Hannan was arrested in Dhaka. During interrogation, Hannan confessed to have been trained in Peshawar (Pakistan) and fought in Afghanistan. But before going to Pakistan, Hannan had spent six years at a seminary in Shahjahanpur district of UP.
Although most of the terrorists from UP have been directly involved in the bomb attacks, some of them have been arrested for their role in other subversive activities like forming sleeper cells and dormant terror modules. In 2007, four persons, including two Hizbul Mujahideen men, were convicted by a Delhi court for possessing explosives and conspiring to wage war against the country. Two of the convicts, who turned out to be active SIMI members, were from Lucknow.
In June 2008, Delhi Police arrested a Harkat-ul-Mujahideen terrorist, Habib-ur-Rehman, for allegedly providing logistics support to two Pakistanis caught with a large cache of ammunition and RDX in Delhi in September 2001. Rehman belongs to Moradabad district of UP.
According to intelligence reports, around 79 incidents of subversive activities were reported from 34 districts, including Lucknow, in UP between 2001 and 2008. Azamgarh, which is now emerging as the latest hotspot on the country's terror map, tops the list of these dubious districts.
24 Sep 2008, 0410 hrs IST, Pervez Iqbal Siddiqui ,TNN
LUCKNOW: Every time a deadly bomb goes off in some part of India and the police begin to investigate, the road to suspects invariably leads to Uttar Pradesh, fast emerging as the biggest terror hub in the country after Jammu & Kashmir. Of the 54 major terror strikes in the country since 2000, at least 45 had a direct link with UP, which itself was rattled by 14 blasts.
As parts of the most populous state in India turn into a terror factory, it's not surprising that the two Indian Mujahideen cadre shot dead in Delhi last week belonged to Azamgarh district in eastern UP. And so are the three men arrested by Delhi Police on Sunday. In fact, almost all the suspects for the recent attacks in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi came from Azamgarh, where a manhunt is on to nab the terror suspects.
With a large number of young, uneducated and unemployed Muslim youth walking the streets aimlessly, the state has become a fertile ground for breeding terror. Terrorism, according to intelligence sources, began to grow roots in the state in 1985 when Azam Ghauri, a native of Andhra Pradesh, and Abdul Karim Tunda of UP set up a unit to provide logistics support to Lashkar-e-Taiba. Ghauri and Tunda, alongwith a Mumbai doctor, Jalees Ansari, had set off a series of explosions in the country on December 6, 1993 — the first anniversary of the Babri Masjid demolition. This was the first known LeT strike in the country outside J&K. Since then almost all major terror attacks have had some UP connection.
Terror outfits from UP have made headlines in the neighbouring countries as well. On October 1, 2005, HuJI 'commander' Mufti Abdul Hannan was arrested in Dhaka. During interrogation, Hannan confessed to have been trained in Peshawar (Pakistan) and fought in Afghanistan. But before going to Pakistan, Hannan had spent six years at a seminary in Shahjahanpur district of UP.
Although most of the terrorists from UP have been directly involved in the bomb attacks, some of them have been arrested for their role in other subversive activities like forming sleeper cells and dormant terror modules. In 2007, four persons, including two Hizbul Mujahideen men, were convicted by a Delhi court for possessing explosives and conspiring to wage war against the country. Two of the convicts, who turned out to be active SIMI members, were from Lucknow.
In June 2008, Delhi Police arrested a Harkat-ul-Mujahideen terrorist, Habib-ur-Rehman, for allegedly providing logistics support to two Pakistanis caught with a large cache of ammunition and RDX in Delhi in September 2001. Rehman belongs to Moradabad district of UP.
According to intelligence reports, around 79 incidents of subversive activities were reported from 34 districts, including Lucknow, in UP between 2001 and 2008. Azamgarh, which is now emerging as the latest hotspot on the country's terror map, tops the list of these dubious districts.
Dear Ramaaji,
Thanks for throwing light upon the difference between caste and varna. Now I'm clear.
Regards,
Sridhar Krishnan
Thanks for throwing light upon the difference between caste and varna. Now I'm clear.
Regards,
Sridhar Krishnan
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Srikrishji,
Thanks! Glad to be of help.
Regards,
Ramaa
Thanks! Glad to be of help.
Regards,
Ramaa
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Jamia University to defend students held on terror charges
http://www.rediff. com/news/ 2008/sep/ 23delblast2. htm
Sept. 23, 2008
Within hours of suspending two students who were arrested in connection with the Delhi [Images] serial blasts, Jamia Millia Islamia University Vice Chancellor Mushirul Hassan declared on Monday night that the university would defend its students in court.
Asserting that the university's reputation was at stake, he said in a terse statement, "The university feels morally bound to defend its students until proven guilty and we will use the legal apparatus for this."
Professor Hassan had himself chaired the meeting that suspended Mohammad Shakeel, a student of MA (economics) and Zia-ur -Rehman, a student of final year BA (Pass). But he was persuaded by other faculty members to provide the arrested students with legal help.
Mohammad Atif Amin, the alleged ring lea der killed in Friday's encounter at Jamia Nagar, was also a student of MA (human rights) in the university.
Another student, Saquib Nisaar, is in police custody for his alleged involvement in the blasts. However, the university has refused to accept that Nisaar is its student without first cross-checking his name against the students' rolls.
The encounter, in which Atif and another accomplice were shot dead, took place in the university's neighbourhood. "The incidents in the neighbouring locality have caused much concern to all of us," admitted Vice Chancellor Hassan.
Though the vice-chancellor expressed his "satisfaction as our students have remained calm and restrained in their conduct," the students themselves have been edgy about the entire episode. Concerned parents are also urging their children to take a few days' leave and go back home.
Many students, who have been staying in rented accommodations in Jamia Nagar because of its closeness to the university, have either gone home or are planning to do so. According to them, it is difficult to concentrate on studies in such an atmosphere.
Since the shootout, the area has witnessed heavy police patrolling, checkposts at every corner and regular inspections in the night.
http://www.rediff. com/news/ 2008/sep/ 23delblast2. htm
Sept. 23, 2008
Within hours of suspending two students who were arrested in connection with the Delhi [Images] serial blasts, Jamia Millia Islamia University Vice Chancellor Mushirul Hassan declared on Monday night that the university would defend its students in court.
Asserting that the university's reputation was at stake, he said in a terse statement, "The university feels morally bound to defend its students until proven guilty and we will use the legal apparatus for this."
Professor Hassan had himself chaired the meeting that suspended Mohammad Shakeel, a student of MA (economics) and Zia-ur -Rehman, a student of final year BA (Pass). But he was persuaded by other faculty members to provide the arrested students with legal help.
Mohammad Atif Amin, the alleged ring lea der killed in Friday's encounter at Jamia Nagar, was also a student of MA (human rights) in the university.
Another student, Saquib Nisaar, is in police custody for his alleged involvement in the blasts. However, the university has refused to accept that Nisaar is its student without first cross-checking his name against the students' rolls.
The encounter, in which Atif and another accomplice were shot dead, took place in the university's neighbourhood. "The incidents in the neighbouring locality have caused much concern to all of us," admitted Vice Chancellor Hassan.
Though the vice-chancellor expressed his "satisfaction as our students have remained calm and restrained in their conduct," the students themselves have been edgy about the entire episode. Concerned parents are also urging their children to take a few days' leave and go back home.
Many students, who have been staying in rented accommodations in Jamia Nagar because of its closeness to the university, have either gone home or are planning to do so. According to them, it is difficult to concentrate on studies in such an atmosphere.
Since the shootout, the area has witnessed heavy police patrolling, checkposts at every corner and regular inspections in the night.
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Jamia VC will use public funds to defend 'terrorists'
After denying any links with any of the suspected terrorists arrested by the police for the Delhi bombings of September 13, Jamia Milia Islamia, the denominational university that neighbours the Jamia Nagar ghetto where the Indian Mujahideen module was based, has finally been forced to admit it was wrong. Having attacked the police for allegedly misleading the public, the Jamia administrators have grudgingly accepted that two of those arrested were students of the university. However, this acceptance has not come with cold horror or sober contrition. Rather, the Vice-Chancellor of the university has, with uncharacteristic bravado, decided to put the weight of Jamia -- as the institution is commonly known -- behind the terror suspects. He has committed the university to providing "legal help to the two students ... until they are proven guilty". In short, a tax-payer dependent institution will use public money to defend probable terrorists. This is nothing short of a scandal; Jamia Milia Islamia is betraying its compact with the city of Delhi . The Vice-Chancellor's act can be only marginally extenuated by taking the position that he is under pressure from the hot-heads and radicals who abound on his campus. Yet, this too would amount to justifying craven surrender and institutional cowardice. It would not address the essential point: The university's refusal to acknowledge that its facilities are being flagrantly exploited by the Students Islamic Movement of India and its bloodthirsty cohorts.
That the Vice-Chancellor -- for all his learning and scholarship and espousal of India's 'syncretic culture' -- is today virtually a SIMI/Indian Mujahideen captive is symbolic of the larger failure of the Muslim intelligentsia. .. www.dailypioneer.com ... Finally, the protection that a Jamia identity card offers jihadis continues to be glossed over. Egged on by fellow travellers in the media, the Left-Islamist duumvirate is emerging as the collective voice of India's Muslims. This is bad for India. It is worse for India's Muslims.
After denying any links with any of the suspected terrorists arrested by the police for the Delhi bombings of September 13, Jamia Milia Islamia, the denominational university that neighbours the Jamia Nagar ghetto where the Indian Mujahideen module was based, has finally been forced to admit it was wrong. Having attacked the police for allegedly misleading the public, the Jamia administrators have grudgingly accepted that two of those arrested were students of the university. However, this acceptance has not come with cold horror or sober contrition. Rather, the Vice-Chancellor of the university has, with uncharacteristic bravado, decided to put the weight of Jamia -- as the institution is commonly known -- behind the terror suspects. He has committed the university to providing "legal help to the two students ... until they are proven guilty". In short, a tax-payer dependent institution will use public money to defend probable terrorists. This is nothing short of a scandal; Jamia Milia Islamia is betraying its compact with the city of Delhi . The Vice-Chancellor's act can be only marginally extenuated by taking the position that he is under pressure from the hot-heads and radicals who abound on his campus. Yet, this too would amount to justifying craven surrender and institutional cowardice. It would not address the essential point: The university's refusal to acknowledge that its facilities are being flagrantly exploited by the Students Islamic Movement of India and its bloodthirsty cohorts.
That the Vice-Chancellor -- for all his learning and scholarship and espousal of India's 'syncretic culture' -- is today virtually a SIMI/Indian Mujahideen captive is symbolic of the larger failure of the Muslim intelligentsia. .. www.dailypioneer.com ... Finally, the protection that a Jamia identity card offers jihadis continues to be glossed over. Egged on by fellow travellers in the media, the Left-Islamist duumvirate is emerging as the collective voice of India's Muslims. This is bad for India. It is worse for India's Muslims.
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Five arrested in connection with Ahmedabad, Delhi blasts
Mumbai Crime Branch officials presents five Indian Mujahideen terrorists in Mumbai on Wednesday. PTI
PTI
24 Sep 2008 08:05:00 PM IST
MUMBAI: The Mumbai Crime Branch on Wednesday arrested five suspected terrorists of Indian Mujahideen, responsible for recent blasts in Delhi, Ahmedabad and other cities in the last three years.The five have been identified as - Abdul Afzal Usmani, Mohammad Saidq Shaikh, Mohammad Aarif Shaikh, Ahmed Zakir Shaikh and Shaikh Mohammad Ansari."Usmani, a resident of Azamgad in Uttar Pradesh had planted bombs at Ahmedabad Civil Hospital and had stolen four vehicles from Navi Mumbai, which were used in Ahmedabad blasts," Joint Commissioner of Police (Crime) Rakesh Maria told mediapersons here.Sadiq was arrested from Cheetah Camp in north-east Trombay area. Aarif has been accused of making the explosives used in the blasts."These five persons were involved in all the blasts across the country since 2005. They have links with LeT and the Huji terror groups," Maria said.The police have also recovered ten kg of ammonium nitrate, four electric circuits, submachine gun and revolvers."The founder member of the Indian Mujahideen Roshan Khan is still at large and is suspected to be in Pakistan," Maria added.
Mumbai Crime Branch officials presents five Indian Mujahideen terrorists in Mumbai on Wednesday. PTI
PTI
24 Sep 2008 08:05:00 PM IST
MUMBAI: The Mumbai Crime Branch on Wednesday arrested five suspected terrorists of Indian Mujahideen, responsible for recent blasts in Delhi, Ahmedabad and other cities in the last three years.The five have been identified as - Abdul Afzal Usmani, Mohammad Saidq Shaikh, Mohammad Aarif Shaikh, Ahmed Zakir Shaikh and Shaikh Mohammad Ansari."Usmani, a resident of Azamgad in Uttar Pradesh had planted bombs at Ahmedabad Civil Hospital and had stolen four vehicles from Navi Mumbai, which were used in Ahmedabad blasts," Joint Commissioner of Police (Crime) Rakesh Maria told mediapersons here.Sadiq was arrested from Cheetah Camp in north-east Trombay area. Aarif has been accused of making the explosives used in the blasts."These five persons were involved in all the blasts across the country since 2005. They have links with LeT and the Huji terror groups," Maria said.The police have also recovered ten kg of ammonium nitrate, four electric circuits, submachine gun and revolvers."The founder member of the Indian Mujahideen Roshan Khan is still at large and is suspected to be in Pakistan," Maria added.
Chennai Girl dumped for refusing to convert
Express News Service
25 Sep 2008 03:51:00 AM IST
CHENNAI: A 28-year-old man was arrested on Wednesday for allegedly sexually exploiting a 25-year-old girl during an extended relationship and then refusing to marry her because she turned down his precondition to convert to his religion, said police sources.
Imtiaz Ahmed met the girl when both worked at a call centre in Velachery. They had a two-year relationship before it ended abruptly.
The girl from Perambur filed a complaint with the Sembium police alleging that Ahmed, a Velachery resident, met her at Spencer Plaza on September 12, her birthday, and invited her to his friend Vinoth Kumar’s house in Madipakkam to celebrate the occasion.
She went along with Ahmed and his friend Suresh to Kumar’s house. During her overnight stay there, she broached the subject of marriage with Ahmed. He told her that he would consider marriage only if she converted to his religion.
When she refused to change her religion, Ahmed lost his cool and it led to a quarrel. Subsequently, he did not entertain any questions from her on marriage.
Police have booked Ahmed for rape and also arrested Suresh. Kumar is absconding.
Express News Service
25 Sep 2008 03:51:00 AM IST
CHENNAI: A 28-year-old man was arrested on Wednesday for allegedly sexually exploiting a 25-year-old girl during an extended relationship and then refusing to marry her because she turned down his precondition to convert to his religion, said police sources.
Imtiaz Ahmed met the girl when both worked at a call centre in Velachery. They had a two-year relationship before it ended abruptly.
The girl from Perambur filed a complaint with the Sembium police alleging that Ahmed, a Velachery resident, met her at Spencer Plaza on September 12, her birthday, and invited her to his friend Vinoth Kumar’s house in Madipakkam to celebrate the occasion.
She went along with Ahmed and his friend Suresh to Kumar’s house. During her overnight stay there, she broached the subject of marriage with Ahmed. He told her that he would consider marriage only if she converted to his religion.
When she refused to change her religion, Ahmed lost his cool and it led to a quarrel. Subsequently, he did not entertain any questions from her on marriage.
Police have booked Ahmed for rape and also arrested Suresh. Kumar is absconding.
Now, Hyderabadi Moulana flies out of country
Vikram Sharma I ENS
25 Sep 2008 05:17:00 AM IST
HYDERABAD: Hyderabad-based Moulana Abdul Aleem Islahi, who, police believe, is the key link to the Indian Mujahideen, which triggered the serial blasts in Ahmedabad and Delhi, has left the country.
The move is being seen by Intelligence agencies as an attempt to avoid interrogation by the police.
The Moulana, said to be close to a Minister in the State Government, told his family members that he was going to perform ‘Umra’ in the holy city of Mecca.
A resident of Jeevan Yar Jung Colony in Saidabad, he left the country with at least two persons who are not his family members. Surprisingly, the AP Police could not prevent him from leaving the city.
This came as a double blow for the sleuths, who suspect that the techie, Abdus Subhan Qureshi alias Tauqeer, the masterbrain of the Indian Mujahideen, may have already crossed over to Bangladesh.
Top police sources from Delhi told Express that confessions of some arrested members of the Indian Mujahideen revealed that the Moulana had provided them shelter. An alleged SIMI member himself, the Moulana runs a madarasa — Jamaat- Ul-Banaat — at Chandrayangutta in the Old City.
The Gujarat Police had been keeping an eye on the Moulana ever since Mufti Abdul Bashar, the alleged mastermind of the Ahmedabad blasts, coughed up his name in his confession. But the serial blasts in Delhi had shifted their focus albiet temporarily.
The Mufti had worked in the Moulana’s madarasa for two years and the latter had even arranged accommodation for him. "Though there is no direct evidence linking him to the serial blasts, the information that he gave shelter to the Mufti and hosted several meetings of the SIMI at his residence might call for his interrogation," officials said.
The techie — Abdus Subhan Qureshi alias Tauqeer — who is now the most wanted man, had also visited and reportedly stayed at the Moulana’s house for several days between 2004 and 2007.
One of the arrested SIMI leaders, Qamruddin Nagori, had also held meetings in the Moulana’s house. The Moulana’s son, Mohtasim Billa, was arrested recently for indulging in anti-national activities while his other son, Mujahid Saleem Islahi died outside the DGP’s office in 2004, after the Gujarat Police opened fire to control a violent mob.
Vikram Sharma I ENS
25 Sep 2008 05:17:00 AM IST
HYDERABAD: Hyderabad-based Moulana Abdul Aleem Islahi, who, police believe, is the key link to the Indian Mujahideen, which triggered the serial blasts in Ahmedabad and Delhi, has left the country.
The move is being seen by Intelligence agencies as an attempt to avoid interrogation by the police.
The Moulana, said to be close to a Minister in the State Government, told his family members that he was going to perform ‘Umra’ in the holy city of Mecca.
A resident of Jeevan Yar Jung Colony in Saidabad, he left the country with at least two persons who are not his family members. Surprisingly, the AP Police could not prevent him from leaving the city.
This came as a double blow for the sleuths, who suspect that the techie, Abdus Subhan Qureshi alias Tauqeer, the masterbrain of the Indian Mujahideen, may have already crossed over to Bangladesh.
Top police sources from Delhi told Express that confessions of some arrested members of the Indian Mujahideen revealed that the Moulana had provided them shelter. An alleged SIMI member himself, the Moulana runs a madarasa — Jamaat- Ul-Banaat — at Chandrayangutta in the Old City.
The Gujarat Police had been keeping an eye on the Moulana ever since Mufti Abdul Bashar, the alleged mastermind of the Ahmedabad blasts, coughed up his name in his confession. But the serial blasts in Delhi had shifted their focus albiet temporarily.
The Mufti had worked in the Moulana’s madarasa for two years and the latter had even arranged accommodation for him. "Though there is no direct evidence linking him to the serial blasts, the information that he gave shelter to the Mufti and hosted several meetings of the SIMI at his residence might call for his interrogation," officials said.
The techie — Abdus Subhan Qureshi alias Tauqeer — who is now the most wanted man, had also visited and reportedly stayed at the Moulana’s house for several days between 2004 and 2007.
One of the arrested SIMI leaders, Qamruddin Nagori, had also held meetings in the Moulana’s house. The Moulana’s son, Mohtasim Billa, was arrested recently for indulging in anti-national activities while his other son, Mujahid Saleem Islahi died outside the DGP’s office in 2004, after the Gujarat Police opened fire to control a violent mob.
Modi 'cleared' over Gujarat riots
Mr Modi has always denied wrongdoing
A commission set up by the government in the western Indian state of Gujarat has exonerated Chief Minister Narendra Modi over religious riots in 2002.
It said there was no evidence that he, his ministers or police were at fault. Gujarat's authorities were criticised for not doing enough to stop the riots.
At least 1,000 people, mostly Muslims, were killed. Violence began after about 60 Hindus died in a fire on a train.
The commission's conclusions differ from those of an earlier inquiry.
'No evidence'
The incident which triggered the riots was the train fire, which occurred in the town of Godhra. It was allegedly started by a Muslim mob.
Justice GT Nanavati concluded in his report, which was presented in the state assembly on Thursday, that the train had been set on fire.
But the report said: "There is absolutely no evidence to show that either the chief minister or any of the ministers in his council or police officers played any role in the Godhra incident."
It concluded that there was also no evidence against him for the outbreak of the riots after the attack, and nothing to suggest that he and his administration did not provide relief and rehabilitation to riot victims.
The commission examined more than 1,000 witnesses during a six-year period.
It found that 140 litres of petrol had been purchased as the part of what it said had been a conspiracy to burn the train carriage.
Relief
The report's findings contradict an earlier inquiry by retired Supreme Court judge Umesh Chandra Banerjee, who found that the coach fire was not deliberately started.
He concluded in 2005 that the fire began by accident. He said there was evidence to suggest the blaze began inside the train, not that it was fire-bombed.
Most accounts from the time and since said a Muslim mob threw petrol bombs at the train, starting the blaze which in turn triggered the riots.
Correspondents say that the findings of the two-member inquiry will be a relief to Mr Modi, who has been accused of failing to halt some of the worst religious violence India has ever seen.
His opponents say he indirectly egged on Hindu mobs who are believed to have led most of the attacks.
But his supporters say he could have done little under the circumstances to prevent the violence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7635768.stm
A commission set up by the government in the western Indian state of Gujarat has exonerated Chief Minister Narendra Modi over religious riots in 2002.
It said there was no evidence that he, his ministers or police were at fault. Gujarat's authorities were criticised for not doing enough to stop the riots.
At least 1,000 people, mostly Muslims, were killed. Violence began after about 60 Hindus died in a fire on a train.
The commission's conclusions differ from those of an earlier inquiry.
'No evidence'
The incident which triggered the riots was the train fire, which occurred in the town of Godhra. It was allegedly started by a Muslim mob.
Justice GT Nanavati concluded in his report, which was presented in the state assembly on Thursday, that the train had been set on fire.
But the report said: "There is absolutely no evidence to show that either the chief minister or any of the ministers in his council or police officers played any role in the Godhra incident."
It concluded that there was also no evidence against him for the outbreak of the riots after the attack, and nothing to suggest that he and his administration did not provide relief and rehabilitation to riot victims.
The commission examined more than 1,000 witnesses during a six-year period.
It found that 140 litres of petrol had been purchased as the part of what it said had been a conspiracy to burn the train carriage.
Relief
The report's findings contradict an earlier inquiry by retired Supreme Court judge Umesh Chandra Banerjee, who found that the coach fire was not deliberately started.
He concluded in 2005 that the fire began by accident. He said there was evidence to suggest the blaze began inside the train, not that it was fire-bombed.
Most accounts from the time and since said a Muslim mob threw petrol bombs at the train, starting the blaze which in turn triggered the riots.
Correspondents say that the findings of the two-member inquiry will be a relief to Mr Modi, who has been accused of failing to halt some of the worst religious violence India has ever seen.
His opponents say he indirectly egged on Hindu mobs who are believed to have led most of the attacks.
But his supporters say he could have done little under the circumstances to prevent the violence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7635768.stm
There is a misinformation indulged by the BBC in the above report. It only hilited the wanton accusation of the secularists (led by the alien Sonia who called him 'the merchant of death') has been disproved in the finding of the commission. What was sought to be concealed by the BBC is that the damning finding of the commission that the GODHRA ARSON WAS PREPLANNED. The BBC conveniently buried the info somewhere in the middle to say: "It found that 140 litres of petrol had been purchased as the part of what it said had been a conspiracy to burn the train carriage."
Before Nanavathi commission could finish its hearing the new secularist outfit of Sonia through her much maligned railway minister lalloo appointed their own guy to inquire into the arson and who a clean chit to the muslims. This is playing vote bank politics. How can a country be safe in the hands of these fifth columns?
Their benefactor the U.S. govt. has at the bidding of the secularists have falsely accused Modi and denied his a visa to visit the States. Not his loss at all!
These are the foreign rascals and their lackeys who are out to destroy our religion, our heritage, our way of life, and our leaders.
We must keep this in mind.
Godhra tragedy pre-planned: Probe panel
IANS
25 Sep 2008 05:31:00 PM IST
AHMEDABAD: The burning of a coach of the Sabarmati Express at Godhra in February 2002, which claimed 59 lives and triggered Gujarat-wide communal violence, was pre-planned, the Nanavati inquiry panel has concluded.The first 200-page part of the report prepared by the panel headed by Justice (retd) G.T. Nanavati, which was tabled in the assembly Thursday amid high drama, has virtually given a clean chit to Chief Minister Narendra Modi, saying there was no evidence to incriminate him or any member of his cabinet in the ensuing violence.Fifty-nine people, including 25 women and 15 children, were burnt alive in the S-6 coach when a violent mob set ablaze two coaches of the Sabarmati Express at the Godhra railway station on Feb 27. Many of them were Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) activists returning after a campaign in Ayodhya, Uttar Pradesh.As Minister of State for Home Amit Shah tabled the report on the first day of the three-day monsoon session of the assembly, it created a furore with the opposition Congress crying foul and walking out.The gruesome tragedy led to communal violence across the state for week in which 1,169 people, a majority of them Muslims, were killed.The report said that 140 litres of petrol was purchased as part of the conspiracy to burn the bogey. It added that the conspiracy was hatched by Moulvi Umarji at the Aman Guest House in Godhra, about 140 km from here, and was meant to spread terror in the area.The report states that the train-burning was a pre-meditated act and there was also heavy stone throwing for 10 to 20 minutes at the S-6 and S-7 coaches followed by the burning that prevented people from coming out.It notes that Razak Kurkur and Salim Panwala had purchased 140 litres of petrol on Feb 26 and carried them in containers. Shaukat Lalu, Imran Sheri, Rafiq, Salim Zarda, Zabeer and Siraj Bala were also involved in the burning of the train, the report says.The two-member inquiry commission was set up by the state government in march 2002. One of the members, Justice (retd) K.G. Shah expired earlier this year, and the government appointed Justice (retd) Akshay Mehta in his place.The findings of the commission contradicts findings of another panel headed by Justice (retd) U.C. Banerjee, set up by Railways Minister Lalu Prasad, which unequivocally stated that the fire was accidental and there was no evidence to suggest that it was planned.
Before Nanavathi commission could finish its hearing the new secularist outfit of Sonia through her much maligned railway minister lalloo appointed their own guy to inquire into the arson and who a clean chit to the muslims. This is playing vote bank politics. How can a country be safe in the hands of these fifth columns?
Their benefactor the U.S. govt. has at the bidding of the secularists have falsely accused Modi and denied his a visa to visit the States. Not his loss at all!
These are the foreign rascals and their lackeys who are out to destroy our religion, our heritage, our way of life, and our leaders.
We must keep this in mind.
Godhra tragedy pre-planned: Probe panel
IANS
25 Sep 2008 05:31:00 PM IST
AHMEDABAD: The burning of a coach of the Sabarmati Express at Godhra in February 2002, which claimed 59 lives and triggered Gujarat-wide communal violence, was pre-planned, the Nanavati inquiry panel has concluded.The first 200-page part of the report prepared by the panel headed by Justice (retd) G.T. Nanavati, which was tabled in the assembly Thursday amid high drama, has virtually given a clean chit to Chief Minister Narendra Modi, saying there was no evidence to incriminate him or any member of his cabinet in the ensuing violence.Fifty-nine people, including 25 women and 15 children, were burnt alive in the S-6 coach when a violent mob set ablaze two coaches of the Sabarmati Express at the Godhra railway station on Feb 27. Many of them were Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) activists returning after a campaign in Ayodhya, Uttar Pradesh.As Minister of State for Home Amit Shah tabled the report on the first day of the three-day monsoon session of the assembly, it created a furore with the opposition Congress crying foul and walking out.The gruesome tragedy led to communal violence across the state for week in which 1,169 people, a majority of them Muslims, were killed.The report said that 140 litres of petrol was purchased as part of the conspiracy to burn the bogey. It added that the conspiracy was hatched by Moulvi Umarji at the Aman Guest House in Godhra, about 140 km from here, and was meant to spread terror in the area.The report states that the train-burning was a pre-meditated act and there was also heavy stone throwing for 10 to 20 minutes at the S-6 and S-7 coaches followed by the burning that prevented people from coming out.It notes that Razak Kurkur and Salim Panwala had purchased 140 litres of petrol on Feb 26 and carried them in containers. Shaukat Lalu, Imran Sheri, Rafiq, Salim Zarda, Zabeer and Siraj Bala were also involved in the burning of the train, the report says.The two-member inquiry commission was set up by the state government in march 2002. One of the members, Justice (retd) K.G. Shah expired earlier this year, and the government appointed Justice (retd) Akshay Mehta in his place.The findings of the commission contradicts findings of another panel headed by Justice (retd) U.C. Banerjee, set up by Railways Minister Lalu Prasad, which unequivocally stated that the fire was accidental and there was no evidence to suggest that it was planned.
Saab, RAmaa,
I have been reading your several postings in this and other threads, re the activities and threat posed to the Indian society by violent fringe groups, primarily islamic. I understand your deep concern that this portents to the future of our india. While much of this violence has been focussed in the north, we as global Indians have justified reasons for concern. What is needed, I think is a firm hand by the government or authorities to extinguish these fires of hatred, for each time someone is caught, these appear to generate more adherents, like the proverbial hydra’s head. We do not need that and should vote towards stopping this.
I am also with you in that sonia Gandhi cohorts are perhaps not the best of folks to address this. then I look around, and I do not find anybody else, whose following cuts across the various groups that is india, who can provide leadership to effectively mobilize public opinion among the muslims that it is in their own interest as well as that of india, that the extremists be curbed. This is an awesome and challenging task, that would take the ultimate skills of chanakya. However we do not have even a pale shadow of chanakya in our ruling clique and that may be our biggest misfortune.
In the absence of the above, how do we as common tamil Brahmins react to this violence? Way back, you have written that your purpose to bring awareness of the destructions of current and past on hindu india (if I remember correctly), and I presume, that your current postings, are from an anxiety that this should not happen again in the future. Much as I believe, that the cruelties of the past were a reflection of the mores of those times, I am with you, that this should not happen again in the future. If at all, I believe, that now, the instruments of destruction, are more easily obtained, and it takes only a handful of individuals to destroy a city or structure.
Today we do not need those vast armies any more. Which precisely is our problem. If all those destructive individuals come from only one group, the entire group gets painted. Those of us, who are not part of what is considered as violent extremist groups, are fortunate enough for just that. my name is a pure tamil name. very often, I am scrutinized carefully as I cross international borders, thanks to our cousins from the island south of us, and some of their leadership. My muslim friends, many a time, have even closer scrutiny. This is part of living in a global world, and personally, I am happy that this check is taking place, because this is to ensure my safety as a traveller, and a believer in non violence.
Just yesterday, a Canadian court sentenced a muslim youngster, who was arrested two years ago, when he was 17, along with 11 others were arrested as Islamic terrorist. In an interview, one of his friends ruefully said that this guy was naïve and not prone to violence, and was mislead by other muslims. In the same sentence, the friend accepted the fact, and said the punishment was the way the society dealt with the threat it faced, and cannot excuse the naivity. Personally, I am glad that this guy and 10 others will be punished, for plotting destruction, though Canada is pretty lenient when it comes to punishment.
Which comes to the crux of your postings. Many of these articles sound the same, or of similar incendiary tones. My fear is the effect that these might have on some of our younger readers. Saab/Ramaa, what if one of our 13 to 17 year olds reads these postings of yours over and over again, gets worked up, and joins the hindu extremist elements which I hear are mushrooming now all over india. What if he (or she) gets involved in violence and loses his (her) life. All because of some words that you penned.
These postings of yours may have been published elsewhere, but in this forum, they have your signature, and hence, I consider that you have a moral responsibility for any consequences triggered by it. Would you want the blood of a tamil Brahmin youth on your conscience? How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence. Because, violence will incite violence, and ultimately consumes the purveyors of the same. You sirs, with your in depth erudition, surely are aware of this.
Saab/Ramaa, I imagine you, in your armchair, comfortable in your surroundings, and with the ease of modern publishing feature, put forth postings, which even to many a moderately disposed person, appears inflammatory. Obviously this is your right, and by their inaction, the Admin support it, or at the most, tolerate it. So be it.
But my appeal is to you, is this question – is this the clarion call of a Brahmin as you believe yourself to be practising? Is this the dharma that you hope to convulse the whole of india? How is this all going to end, in your plan? Tamil Brahmins took to the gandhi’s call for freedom in large numbers, primarily because of the non violent basis of the struggle. Ofcourse we had a vanchinathan, but he is only one among the lakhs that our community is and was.
Now of late, their appears to be a fascination with extreme violence by some members of our society, particularly the older ones like you. I cannot understand it. Is it because they can preach something without being a party to it? After all we do not see any of the old fogies bundling a bunch of grenades under their dhotis and attending some rally and blowing themselves up. They leave it upto the flower of youth. How much more callous can they get?
I, for one, do not desire our tamil Brahmin youth to be such flowers of destruction.
Saab/Ramaa, I request you, to give some deep thought to the possible consequences of your postings. It is ok to highlight threat posed to our democratic india. It is not ok to incite violence, for if even one person, on reading a version of posting, commits a dangerous act, the consequences of it would squarely rest on your soul and conscience.
We are all responsible adults, and much as we can apply restraint on ourselves, the youth, in their incited passions, are wont to commit acts, which of their own accord, they would not have ventured. Let us focus our guidance towards our youth on education, upward mobility, wealth creation, entrepreneurship and such positive goals, for a fulfilled life.
Thank you.
I have been reading your several postings in this and other threads, re the activities and threat posed to the Indian society by violent fringe groups, primarily islamic. I understand your deep concern that this portents to the future of our india. While much of this violence has been focussed in the north, we as global Indians have justified reasons for concern. What is needed, I think is a firm hand by the government or authorities to extinguish these fires of hatred, for each time someone is caught, these appear to generate more adherents, like the proverbial hydra’s head. We do not need that and should vote towards stopping this.
I am also with you in that sonia Gandhi cohorts are perhaps not the best of folks to address this. then I look around, and I do not find anybody else, whose following cuts across the various groups that is india, who can provide leadership to effectively mobilize public opinion among the muslims that it is in their own interest as well as that of india, that the extremists be curbed. This is an awesome and challenging task, that would take the ultimate skills of chanakya. However we do not have even a pale shadow of chanakya in our ruling clique and that may be our biggest misfortune.
In the absence of the above, how do we as common tamil Brahmins react to this violence? Way back, you have written that your purpose to bring awareness of the destructions of current and past on hindu india (if I remember correctly), and I presume, that your current postings, are from an anxiety that this should not happen again in the future. Much as I believe, that the cruelties of the past were a reflection of the mores of those times, I am with you, that this should not happen again in the future. If at all, I believe, that now, the instruments of destruction, are more easily obtained, and it takes only a handful of individuals to destroy a city or structure.
Today we do not need those vast armies any more. Which precisely is our problem. If all those destructive individuals come from only one group, the entire group gets painted. Those of us, who are not part of what is considered as violent extremist groups, are fortunate enough for just that. my name is a pure tamil name. very often, I am scrutinized carefully as I cross international borders, thanks to our cousins from the island south of us, and some of their leadership. My muslim friends, many a time, have even closer scrutiny. This is part of living in a global world, and personally, I am happy that this check is taking place, because this is to ensure my safety as a traveller, and a believer in non violence.
Just yesterday, a Canadian court sentenced a muslim youngster, who was arrested two years ago, when he was 17, along with 11 others were arrested as Islamic terrorist. In an interview, one of his friends ruefully said that this guy was naïve and not prone to violence, and was mislead by other muslims. In the same sentence, the friend accepted the fact, and said the punishment was the way the society dealt with the threat it faced, and cannot excuse the naivity. Personally, I am glad that this guy and 10 others will be punished, for plotting destruction, though Canada is pretty lenient when it comes to punishment.
Which comes to the crux of your postings. Many of these articles sound the same, or of similar incendiary tones. My fear is the effect that these might have on some of our younger readers. Saab/Ramaa, what if one of our 13 to 17 year olds reads these postings of yours over and over again, gets worked up, and joins the hindu extremist elements which I hear are mushrooming now all over india. What if he (or she) gets involved in violence and loses his (her) life. All because of some words that you penned.
These postings of yours may have been published elsewhere, but in this forum, they have your signature, and hence, I consider that you have a moral responsibility for any consequences triggered by it. Would you want the blood of a tamil Brahmin youth on your conscience? How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence. Because, violence will incite violence, and ultimately consumes the purveyors of the same. You sirs, with your in depth erudition, surely are aware of this.
Saab/Ramaa, I imagine you, in your armchair, comfortable in your surroundings, and with the ease of modern publishing feature, put forth postings, which even to many a moderately disposed person, appears inflammatory. Obviously this is your right, and by their inaction, the Admin support it, or at the most, tolerate it. So be it.
But my appeal is to you, is this question – is this the clarion call of a Brahmin as you believe yourself to be practising? Is this the dharma that you hope to convulse the whole of india? How is this all going to end, in your plan? Tamil Brahmins took to the gandhi’s call for freedom in large numbers, primarily because of the non violent basis of the struggle. Ofcourse we had a vanchinathan, but he is only one among the lakhs that our community is and was.
Now of late, their appears to be a fascination with extreme violence by some members of our society, particularly the older ones like you. I cannot understand it. Is it because they can preach something without being a party to it? After all we do not see any of the old fogies bundling a bunch of grenades under their dhotis and attending some rally and blowing themselves up. They leave it upto the flower of youth. How much more callous can they get?
I, for one, do not desire our tamil Brahmin youth to be such flowers of destruction.
Saab/Ramaa, I request you, to give some deep thought to the possible consequences of your postings. It is ok to highlight threat posed to our democratic india. It is not ok to incite violence, for if even one person, on reading a version of posting, commits a dangerous act, the consequences of it would squarely rest on your soul and conscience.
We are all responsible adults, and much as we can apply restraint on ourselves, the youth, in their incited passions, are wont to commit acts, which of their own accord, they would not have ventured. Let us focus our guidance towards our youth on education, upward mobility, wealth creation, entrepreneurship and such positive goals, for a fulfilled life.
Thank you.
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Welcome back Kunjuppu. When I was in Toronto a few months back, I thought of you!
Your writeup is long and sometimes moving. However it is precisely one-sided and you don't talk of the cost to humanity of the kind of view you hold while you have laboured hard on the cost of standing up to Islamic Terrorism.
You asked me:
I may be posting more of my point of view and see if anything convinces you, otherwise let the events decide and teach us!
Regards,
Your writeup is long and sometimes moving. However it is precisely one-sided and you don't talk of the cost to humanity of the kind of view you hold while you have laboured hard on the cost of standing up to Islamic Terrorism.
You asked me:
I can ask the same question to you as to how you can sleep in peace when thousands of innocents have lost their lives undefended because of the pacifism you have advocated?
I may be posting more of my point of view and see if anything convinces you, otherwise let the events decide and teach us!
Regards,
thank you ramaa. hopefully, you had a good experience in our fair city toronto.
also thank you for posing a query which i will attempt to answer. and then perhaps, we can discuss the sometimes unintended results of our writings or says?
i am no pacifist. i believe strongly that violent extremistic terrrorism should be put down. uncompromisingly. which is why, i, along with all canadians, will go along with, the rather severe (by canadian standards) the punishment that will be meted out to the 11 youths mentioned in my earlier note. what is poignant here, is that bar one, all the others, including one sri lankan tamil hindu youngster, were led astray one evil individual. but law is law, and naivity is no excuse to plot destruction.
in a democracy, there are instruments to uphold the law. india is a democracy. i believe, that india, as it is composed now, can function, only as a democracy and maintain its territorial integrity. upto 1947, an india, as defined by current borders was held together only through the will of an overwhelmingly strong power, whether it be harsha, ashoka, akbar or the british raj.
post 1947, the concept of current india, is one of the people, wishing to be a single entity. we have as many competing aspirations as there are groups of people. in order to prosper intact, every one of those groups must have a stake in the success of the country. that comes only with a partipating sense of ownership.
we need to support and trust those instruments of government in upholding the law. we cannot afford to take law into our own hands and even unwittingly an instrument to propagate violence and goondaism, as a solution to counteract the evils of terrorism. two wrongs do not make a right.
let us not encourage what we think is our own brand of vigilantism to counter threats posed by jihadists. we have our government, army, police and judiciary. a true love for india, would be to repose and reinstate our trust in our branches of government to uphold our constitution.
please note, i mentioned 'government' and not 'those who govern'. these may be inadept, but then you have the facilities of political parties and elections. do your bit to support your candidate who espouses your causes closest to your ideals.
in this forum, i am concerned not about your convictions. but the unintended effect your postings might have on the naive youth of our community who will ending up reading it in this website. just imagine your teenage son/daughter/nephew/neice reads this and off he/she goes to meet like minded people, with the intentions of blowing up or killing a few of those elements that he/she feels is threatening our way of life.
in the process suffers injury or gets killed. who is responsible for inciting an impressionable teenager or youth? do you agree that this can happen? do you accept the responsibility for possible acts of violence committed through your postings? would you like our tamil brahmin youth to veer towards groups which advocate chaos and destruction of our country in the name of saving it?
i think, sir, you need to step through your postings. go through every line. realize that they are of high incendiary in nature, and tend to incite acts of violence addressed towards communities, most of whom, are just as innocent, as our own. you are among the instruments, who are creating our own brand of terrorists, whom you believe are anti dotes to the jihadist variety. nothing could be farther from the truth.
you might say that how people react to your posts are not your concern. you aim is to educate. i would like to counter that. impressionable people, believe totally what they read or hear. many in the younger ages do not have the capacity to filter truth from fiction, smell out hidden agendas, and above all act with restraint.
you might say, that your kith and kin are too smart to be move into fields of danger. but sir, scratch ourselves for a few generations, and all of us, are daayaadhis in one form or other. unwittingly, we through our incendiary tirades, are providing our own blood kind as cannon fodder for the agendas of folks over whom we have no control.
to sum up: i repeat this query of mine from the earlier posting: How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence.
sir, i do not believe that thousands of innocent tamil brahmins have perished due to communal violence. this is a website devoted to tamil brahmins' interests over and above everything. the brahmins of other states have histories of their own, which is distinctly different from ours.
what you post, will have a direct impact on innocent, gullible, impressionable tamil brahmin youths. the consequences of their unthoughtful actions will have to lie squarely on your shoulders and of your like. atleast morally, if not legally. even the latter, may have some standing in court.
and final caution. it is not difficult to search out identities of ourselves, even though we presume that we are anonymous. such is the nature of the web and internet. folks from other groups can also come to know who you are. they already know what you represent. not at all difficult to find out where you live. some essential common sense of surival without hassle, might force you to temper your language. you have drawn attention to yourself to become a target from groups whose very nature, you have been instigating your tamil brahmin wards to join. poetic justice?
just a caution to you, from someone, who is in i.t. that is all.
to reiterate, with modern tools, our identities are as exposed as newborne babes, even though we might live under the illusion of being anonymous. no need to expose ourselves and our families, to crank violence, by being one ourselves to support the same.
keep your life simple. aggressively promote the peace that your higher erudite learning demands of you. the values promoted by our ancestors. do not spread the oil of hatred over the nooks and corners of this website for nefarious purposes. it can only come back to haunt you, for don't we all suffer the consequences of our actions? or do we let our descendents suffer our karma?
thank you.
also thank you for posing a query which i will attempt to answer. and then perhaps, we can discuss the sometimes unintended results of our writings or says?
i am no pacifist. i believe strongly that violent extremistic terrrorism should be put down. uncompromisingly. which is why, i, along with all canadians, will go along with, the rather severe (by canadian standards) the punishment that will be meted out to the 11 youths mentioned in my earlier note. what is poignant here, is that bar one, all the others, including one sri lankan tamil hindu youngster, were led astray one evil individual. but law is law, and naivity is no excuse to plot destruction.
in a democracy, there are instruments to uphold the law. india is a democracy. i believe, that india, as it is composed now, can function, only as a democracy and maintain its territorial integrity. upto 1947, an india, as defined by current borders was held together only through the will of an overwhelmingly strong power, whether it be harsha, ashoka, akbar or the british raj.
post 1947, the concept of current india, is one of the people, wishing to be a single entity. we have as many competing aspirations as there are groups of people. in order to prosper intact, every one of those groups must have a stake in the success of the country. that comes only with a partipating sense of ownership.
we need to support and trust those instruments of government in upholding the law. we cannot afford to take law into our own hands and even unwittingly an instrument to propagate violence and goondaism, as a solution to counteract the evils of terrorism. two wrongs do not make a right.
let us not encourage what we think is our own brand of vigilantism to counter threats posed by jihadists. we have our government, army, police and judiciary. a true love for india, would be to repose and reinstate our trust in our branches of government to uphold our constitution.
please note, i mentioned 'government' and not 'those who govern'. these may be inadept, but then you have the facilities of political parties and elections. do your bit to support your candidate who espouses your causes closest to your ideals.
in this forum, i am concerned not about your convictions. but the unintended effect your postings might have on the naive youth of our community who will ending up reading it in this website. just imagine your teenage son/daughter/nephew/neice reads this and off he/she goes to meet like minded people, with the intentions of blowing up or killing a few of those elements that he/she feels is threatening our way of life.
in the process suffers injury or gets killed. who is responsible for inciting an impressionable teenager or youth? do you agree that this can happen? do you accept the responsibility for possible acts of violence committed through your postings? would you like our tamil brahmin youth to veer towards groups which advocate chaos and destruction of our country in the name of saving it?
i think, sir, you need to step through your postings. go through every line. realize that they are of high incendiary in nature, and tend to incite acts of violence addressed towards communities, most of whom, are just as innocent, as our own. you are among the instruments, who are creating our own brand of terrorists, whom you believe are anti dotes to the jihadist variety. nothing could be farther from the truth.
you might say that how people react to your posts are not your concern. you aim is to educate. i would like to counter that. impressionable people, believe totally what they read or hear. many in the younger ages do not have the capacity to filter truth from fiction, smell out hidden agendas, and above all act with restraint.
you might say, that your kith and kin are too smart to be move into fields of danger. but sir, scratch ourselves for a few generations, and all of us, are daayaadhis in one form or other. unwittingly, we through our incendiary tirades, are providing our own blood kind as cannon fodder for the agendas of folks over whom we have no control.
to sum up: i repeat this query of mine from the earlier posting: How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence.
sir, i do not believe that thousands of innocent tamil brahmins have perished due to communal violence. this is a website devoted to tamil brahmins' interests over and above everything. the brahmins of other states have histories of their own, which is distinctly different from ours.
what you post, will have a direct impact on innocent, gullible, impressionable tamil brahmin youths. the consequences of their unthoughtful actions will have to lie squarely on your shoulders and of your like. atleast morally, if not legally. even the latter, may have some standing in court.
and final caution. it is not difficult to search out identities of ourselves, even though we presume that we are anonymous. such is the nature of the web and internet. folks from other groups can also come to know who you are. they already know what you represent. not at all difficult to find out where you live. some essential common sense of surival without hassle, might force you to temper your language. you have drawn attention to yourself to become a target from groups whose very nature, you have been instigating your tamil brahmin wards to join. poetic justice?
just a caution to you, from someone, who is in i.t. that is all.
to reiterate, with modern tools, our identities are as exposed as newborne babes, even though we might live under the illusion of being anonymous. no need to expose ourselves and our families, to crank violence, by being one ourselves to support the same.
keep your life simple. aggressively promote the peace that your higher erudite learning demands of you. the values promoted by our ancestors. do not spread the oil of hatred over the nooks and corners of this website for nefarious purposes. it can only come back to haunt you, for don't we all suffer the consequences of our actions? or do we let our descendents suffer our karma?
thank you.
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Dear Kunjuppu,
Toronto is a clean city. I like it!
I talked about politics in that part of the world with friends who live there like you do. I am told that just as in India there are political parties who play for minority vote banks such as Muslims, Sikhs, French, Jews and the LTTE supporters. And just as in India they have a minority govt. though not a coalition. Also I am told that when there is an election next time the Conservative party which does not play to the vote bank politics would win majority. What do you think?
I think you are prone to pacifism if not a pacifist! I think we all are or atleast it is our goal. Aum Shanthi, Shanthi, Shanthi is our prayer isn't it?
India is a democracy in paper only. 90% or more of the Brahmins in Tamilnadu don't go to vote because of various reasons such as perceived violence, long lineup in the hot sun, not comfortable standing in line with bullies around, and someone puts their vote anyway even before they reach the polling officer! etc. etc. You have seen the pathetic spectacle of the MPs voting for money on live TV. The political parties use the law against one another to keep themselves in power.
India is extremely corrupt and scores only 3.5 in the index rate. So it fails in the rule of law.
Those who attack the society with serial bombs or bribes to elect govt. or flout the law or even convert people to another religion are having a free rein. In frustration people who resist them also go about it without recourse to the police and other institutions of law for they have come to distrust them.
This is the sorry state of affairs.
We call this 'araajagam'!
By the way I read your following note:
Could I take the privilege to tell you to please have faith in God and Dharma and that God and Dharma (which are synonym) will protect us. And so we don't have to be afraid of speaking the truth.
Dharmo rakshathi rakshithaha is the Veda Vaak.
You have said:
Regards,
Toronto is a clean city. I like it!
I talked about politics in that part of the world with friends who live there like you do. I am told that just as in India there are political parties who play for minority vote banks such as Muslims, Sikhs, French, Jews and the LTTE supporters. And just as in India they have a minority govt. though not a coalition. Also I am told that when there is an election next time the Conservative party which does not play to the vote bank politics would win majority. What do you think?
I think you are prone to pacifism if not a pacifist! I think we all are or atleast it is our goal. Aum Shanthi, Shanthi, Shanthi is our prayer isn't it?
India is a democracy in paper only. 90% or more of the Brahmins in Tamilnadu don't go to vote because of various reasons such as perceived violence, long lineup in the hot sun, not comfortable standing in line with bullies around, and someone puts their vote anyway even before they reach the polling officer! etc. etc. You have seen the pathetic spectacle of the MPs voting for money on live TV. The political parties use the law against one another to keep themselves in power.
India is extremely corrupt and scores only 3.5 in the index rate. So it fails in the rule of law.
Those who attack the society with serial bombs or bribes to elect govt. or flout the law or even convert people to another religion are having a free rein. In frustration people who resist them also go about it without recourse to the police and other institutions of law for they have come to distrust them.
This is the sorry state of affairs.
We call this 'araajagam'!
By the way I read your following note:
The only option you have is to keep quite and let araajagam rein.
Could I take the privilege to tell you to please have faith in God and Dharma and that God and Dharma (which are synonym) will protect us. And so we don't have to be afraid of speaking the truth.
Dharmo rakshathi rakshithaha is the Veda Vaak.
You have said:
This is easily achieved if we enforce the principle of equality. Indian constitution has provisions of inequality and that is decimating the unity and the intergrity of the country. Can we enshrine the principle of equality in the Indian constitution? Not under this setup I am afraid.
Regards,
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Bomb blast kills boy, terror returns to Delhi
IANS 27 Sep 2008 03:19:00 PM IST
NEW DELHI: A young boy was killed and 17 people were injured when a bomb flung by two men from a motorcycle exploded Saturday with a deafening roar in a crowded area of Mehrauli in south Delhi.At least three of the injured were in critical condition, a hospital spokesman said, as private vehicles and ambulances raced the injured to the Safdarjang Hospital and the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) some 10 km away.Police said the boy, believed to be 13-year-old Santosh Kumar, had his head blown off when he picked up the bomb concealed in a lunch box and wrapped in a black polythene bag in the congested Mehrauli Sarai electronics market.The blast took place around 2.15 p.m. outside an electronics shop. Saturday's terror attack came two weeks after five bombs went off in three crowded areas in Delhi, killing 24 people and injuring 124.Delhi Police Commissioner Y.S. Dadwal told reporters at Mehrauli that the men who threw the bomb on a road were riding a black Pulsar motorcycle. They wore jeans, had covered their heads with helmets and sped away.Barely a minute later, the bomb exploded. The motorcycle was reportedly found abandoned a few kilometres away.The explosion rattled shops and houses in a large area close to a flower market sparking panic, as smoke rapidly enveloped the street, almost blinding everyone.Residents complained that the police took more than an hour to reach Mehrauli, a sprawling historic area on the city's southern fringe which is home to the 13th century Qutab Minar monument."Two youths on a motorcycle left a packet in a polythene bag outside an electronic shop and sped off. It began smoking and soon afterward there was a huge explosion," said Pritam, an eyewitness.The impact of the blast was so devastating that glass panes of several shops were shattered. As many collapsed on the narrow road, pools of blood formed on the street.Sanjeev Goel, a doctor at AIIMS, put the death toll at one - a figure confirmed by the police. Goel said a total of 17 people were injured, with three of them in critical condition. All three were being operated.Goel said the injured included 11 men and three women.Deputy Commissioner of Police (South Delhi) H.G.S. Dhaliwal said the entire incident took place very rapidly. He said the bombing suspects were aged around 25 years and had covered their heads with helmets.One shopkeeper who was among the first to rush to the bombed site said he saw several people lying on the street."There was a lot of smoke, everything was hazy. I could not see properly. People were shouting."Since there was no police, we began to rush the injured to hospitals in cars and autos."A middle-aged woman gave a slightly different account of what had happened."There were two people on a bike. I was on a scooter. They were trying to overtake me. Then it slowed down. An object like a papaya fruit wrapped in a newspaper was rolled on the road. After a few minutes, I heard a major explosion. Then there was smoke everywhere."
-----------------------------
Comments to the above news:
(contd.)
IANS 27 Sep 2008 03:19:00 PM IST
NEW DELHI: A young boy was killed and 17 people were injured when a bomb flung by two men from a motorcycle exploded Saturday with a deafening roar in a crowded area of Mehrauli in south Delhi.At least three of the injured were in critical condition, a hospital spokesman said, as private vehicles and ambulances raced the injured to the Safdarjang Hospital and the All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS) some 10 km away.Police said the boy, believed to be 13-year-old Santosh Kumar, had his head blown off when he picked up the bomb concealed in a lunch box and wrapped in a black polythene bag in the congested Mehrauli Sarai electronics market.The blast took place around 2.15 p.m. outside an electronics shop. Saturday's terror attack came two weeks after five bombs went off in three crowded areas in Delhi, killing 24 people and injuring 124.Delhi Police Commissioner Y.S. Dadwal told reporters at Mehrauli that the men who threw the bomb on a road were riding a black Pulsar motorcycle. They wore jeans, had covered their heads with helmets and sped away.Barely a minute later, the bomb exploded. The motorcycle was reportedly found abandoned a few kilometres away.The explosion rattled shops and houses in a large area close to a flower market sparking panic, as smoke rapidly enveloped the street, almost blinding everyone.Residents complained that the police took more than an hour to reach Mehrauli, a sprawling historic area on the city's southern fringe which is home to the 13th century Qutab Minar monument."Two youths on a motorcycle left a packet in a polythene bag outside an electronic shop and sped off. It began smoking and soon afterward there was a huge explosion," said Pritam, an eyewitness.The impact of the blast was so devastating that glass panes of several shops were shattered. As many collapsed on the narrow road, pools of blood formed on the street.Sanjeev Goel, a doctor at AIIMS, put the death toll at one - a figure confirmed by the police. Goel said a total of 17 people were injured, with three of them in critical condition. All three were being operated.Goel said the injured included 11 men and three women.Deputy Commissioner of Police (South Delhi) H.G.S. Dhaliwal said the entire incident took place very rapidly. He said the bombing suspects were aged around 25 years and had covered their heads with helmets.One shopkeeper who was among the first to rush to the bombed site said he saw several people lying on the street."There was a lot of smoke, everything was hazy. I could not see properly. People were shouting."Since there was no police, we began to rush the injured to hospitals in cars and autos."A middle-aged woman gave a slightly different account of what had happened."There were two people on a bike. I was on a scooter. They were trying to overtake me. Then it slowed down. An object like a papaya fruit wrapped in a newspaper was rolled on the road. After a few minutes, I heard a major explosion. Then there was smoke everywhere."
-----------------------------
Comments to the above news:
(contd.)
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
contd..
Pakistan is gone, Bangladesh is gone, kashmir is going, Eight Districts of West Bengal are now Muslim majority areas as is Malappuram district in Kerala created by the communists in the South. Hindus are being driven out of everywhere. From Fiji, Uganda, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Kashmir and now Assam and so on. WHERE WILL YOU FLEE as the muslim and christian terrorists are killing Hindus and making daily life filled with terror. Christian terrorists are killing more hindus than the muslim terrorists in INDIA. It is time for self defense and take up arms and kill the christian and muslim terrorists. ‘Always remember the glory and greatness of the creator and do your duty efficiently without being attached to or affected by the results even if that duty may at times demand unavoidable violence.’ — Bhagvad Gita
By n.krishna
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
Unfortunately, in this country, whoever comes out in support of Hindus is branded communal, whereas the so called SECULAR parties have tie ups with MUSLIM LEAGUE (the name itself is communal), be it congress or the left and proclaim themselves SECULAR. Pathetic is the state that in our own country our own bretheren (KASHMIRI PANDITS) are refugees and neglected whereas the illegal immigrants from Bangladesh are treated with respect and given jobs, just for being muslims and a vote bank
By K.Sunder
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
Only the victims of the Islamic terror attack knows the pain. They should join together to form a group like Uphar tragedy family group. As we have seen in the case of Uphar case India has no working judicial or police force to render justice to the victims. Indira Gandhi and Manmohan were on the payroll of Pakistan’s ISI as per a US senate report which investigated the collapse of the Paki terrorist bank ‘Bank of Credit and Commerce International’ and that is one reason why Manmohan is losing sleep thinking about the pain of the parents of the muslim terrorists who are bombing all over the world. So the victims families should collect funds and pay assassins to eliminate even the families of the suspected muslim terrorists. Hindus are notorious for their indifference to other Hindus and this is the only solution for the muslim terror in India. It has reached a stage of no return an it is either muslims or hindus who could live in India.
By n.krishna
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
"Police will catch the culprits, I will bail them out" - Arjun Singh
By Manoj
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
First Cong said stronger law better than POTA to be enacted to curb terrorism.Now they said POTA itself no need existing laws enough. Human resourse Develpment minister justifies the Jamalia VC's support to bail out the accused terrorist students by legal aid. I think Jamalia University is teaching how to plant bombs. Then why should Jamalia University VC should come out openly in support of terrorist activities of thier students?As long as this Govt's indirect support to terrorists these kind of bombings will continue. Terrorist is a Terrorist here no religion for terrorist.
By G.Prabakaran
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
I Think now Shivraj Patil should collect the Memento of blasts from the sites and should display in his house proudly as his 'achievements' Too Much have been said and nothing has been done, Govt. should now act and should act Fast, Becos time is running out and you cannot test common man Persistence always. We need a proactive stand, its an old saying that 'prevention is better then cures', so please Mr. Patil stop being an ostrich and act like a man, stop vote bank politics . We need a Strong law against any kind of terrorism, Be it Bajrang Dal nonsense in Orissa, or Raj Thakhery jingoism of Mahrasthra or Simmi activity and whats happening in current senario, every thing should be labelled as TERRORIST Activity.
By Sandeep Kapoor
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
No security in 'secluar' country.
By reddy
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
dear on line editor, The bomb exploson today at flower market near Meharali shoul de considered a very serious one and a lapse on our ALERTNESS to watch and SMELL this terrorists masqurading as just innocent citizens but of minority segment but people do not under stand these people cultivate malafide motive towards this country.It is a pity this vital fact is not understood by Arjun singh and co who want to raise funds to defend two students at Jamia mila.For terror suspects no such encourage ment must come from NATIONALIST citizens.Students or others the out look is destruction.They come as students so that this way they can fool Indians who are infected by secularism dose.The government must review their policy on TErrorism and treatment expected to be given to these antinationals possessing Islamic religion.One thing must be under stood by all Where ever terrorism is there all members certainly belong to Islam, Swami Vevekanada at Chicago world philosophical congress in his adres
By P.M.G.,Pillai
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=ND4Ii|5VoPE=&Title=Bomb+blast+kills+boy,+terror+returns+to+Delhi&SectionID=b7ziAYMenjw=&MainSectionID=b7ziAYMenjw=&SEO=Blast,+Delhi&SectionName=pWehHe7IsSU=
Pakistan is gone, Bangladesh is gone, kashmir is going, Eight Districts of West Bengal are now Muslim majority areas as is Malappuram district in Kerala created by the communists in the South. Hindus are being driven out of everywhere. From Fiji, Uganda, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Kashmir and now Assam and so on. WHERE WILL YOU FLEE as the muslim and christian terrorists are killing Hindus and making daily life filled with terror. Christian terrorists are killing more hindus than the muslim terrorists in INDIA. It is time for self defense and take up arms and kill the christian and muslim terrorists. ‘Always remember the glory and greatness of the creator and do your duty efficiently without being attached to or affected by the results even if that duty may at times demand unavoidable violence.’ — Bhagvad Gita
By n.krishna
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
Unfortunately, in this country, whoever comes out in support of Hindus is branded communal, whereas the so called SECULAR parties have tie ups with MUSLIM LEAGUE (the name itself is communal), be it congress or the left and proclaim themselves SECULAR. Pathetic is the state that in our own country our own bretheren (KASHMIRI PANDITS) are refugees and neglected whereas the illegal immigrants from Bangladesh are treated with respect and given jobs, just for being muslims and a vote bank
By K.Sunder
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
Only the victims of the Islamic terror attack knows the pain. They should join together to form a group like Uphar tragedy family group. As we have seen in the case of Uphar case India has no working judicial or police force to render justice to the victims. Indira Gandhi and Manmohan were on the payroll of Pakistan’s ISI as per a US senate report which investigated the collapse of the Paki terrorist bank ‘Bank of Credit and Commerce International’ and that is one reason why Manmohan is losing sleep thinking about the pain of the parents of the muslim terrorists who are bombing all over the world. So the victims families should collect funds and pay assassins to eliminate even the families of the suspected muslim terrorists. Hindus are notorious for their indifference to other Hindus and this is the only solution for the muslim terror in India. It has reached a stage of no return an it is either muslims or hindus who could live in India.
By n.krishna
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
"Police will catch the culprits, I will bail them out" - Arjun Singh
By Manoj
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
First Cong said stronger law better than POTA to be enacted to curb terrorism.Now they said POTA itself no need existing laws enough. Human resourse Develpment minister justifies the Jamalia VC's support to bail out the accused terrorist students by legal aid. I think Jamalia University is teaching how to plant bombs. Then why should Jamalia University VC should come out openly in support of terrorist activities of thier students?As long as this Govt's indirect support to terrorists these kind of bombings will continue. Terrorist is a Terrorist here no religion for terrorist.
By G.Prabakaran
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
I Think now Shivraj Patil should collect the Memento of blasts from the sites and should display in his house proudly as his 'achievements' Too Much have been said and nothing has been done, Govt. should now act and should act Fast, Becos time is running out and you cannot test common man Persistence always. We need a proactive stand, its an old saying that 'prevention is better then cures', so please Mr. Patil stop being an ostrich and act like a man, stop vote bank politics . We need a Strong law against any kind of terrorism, Be it Bajrang Dal nonsense in Orissa, or Raj Thakhery jingoism of Mahrasthra or Simmi activity and whats happening in current senario, every thing should be labelled as TERRORIST Activity.
By Sandeep Kapoor
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
No security in 'secluar' country.
By reddy
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
dear on line editor, The bomb exploson today at flower market near Meharali shoul de considered a very serious one and a lapse on our ALERTNESS to watch and SMELL this terrorists masqurading as just innocent citizens but of minority segment but people do not under stand these people cultivate malafide motive towards this country.It is a pity this vital fact is not understood by Arjun singh and co who want to raise funds to defend two students at Jamia mila.For terror suspects no such encourage ment must come from NATIONALIST citizens.Students or others the out look is destruction.They come as students so that this way they can fool Indians who are infected by secularism dose.The government must review their policy on TErrorism and treatment expected to be given to these antinationals possessing Islamic religion.One thing must be under stood by all Where ever terrorism is there all members certainly belong to Islam, Swami Vevekanada at Chicago world philosophical congress in his adres
By P.M.G.,Pillai
9/27/2008 12:00:00 AM
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=ND4Ii|5VoPE=&Title=Bomb+blast+kills+boy,+terror+returns+to+Delhi&SectionID=b7ziAYMenjw=&MainSectionID=b7ziAYMenjw=&SEO=Blast,+Delhi&SectionName=pWehHe7IsSU=
thank you ramaa for your kind reply.
i agree with you, that too think that democracy in india is flawed. it is flawed everywhere it is practised, to various levels and extents. corruption, mafiadom or goondaism, special interest groups with their own agenda which may not be for the common good, - these are banes that are present everywhere.
more often than not, the fundamental process of change of government in an orderly fashion, leadership succession without violent upheavals, and above all, the feeling of enfranchisement - all these overwhelm the inbuilt weakness of democracies, particularly ours, which interms of history, is still in infancy.
for india, i think there is no other alternative, if we want to preserve our very large and many an ethnicity, within one political domain. much as we may despise our political parties, the fact remains, that every one of those who occupied the gaddi, do have to beg the electorate at periodical intervals for this privilege.
vox populi, in its purest form, expressed by that single 'x' mark across a symbol, prevails. we might not like the results, but we can have a glimpse of the alternates by viewing our neighbour pakistan. sure enough, it is a homogeneous one religion country, and with only a handful of dominant ethnic groups. ideally, they should way ahead of us, for genetically, and in 1947, started with a similar base of english educated intelligentsia at the helm of the adminstration.
any centralized overwhelming power, attempting to impose roughshod dictum from above, is a sure recipe for a civil war within india. even though our political parties might fight tooth and nail among themselves, i can see them uniting and in one stroke, bring the country to a permanent standstill and with violent bloodshed as a consequence. let us not even glimpse in that direction.
back to my query, if you don't mind. i have answered your issues, to the best of my ability. twice you have demurred a response to a somewhat intense appeal of mine. i will ask you once more and i would appreciate it, if you would just stick with the answer in your reply, taking into consideration the focus and the context in which this question was initially proposed to you. How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence.
ramaa (and saab whose silence is indeed deafening here), it would indeed be very presumptuous of me to expect an instant change in your beliefs or attitudes due to my beseech. after all, we come to this forum, with our set standards which we revel in expressing, finding like minded mates, and occassionally sparring partners. it is at this point, that i need to get a bit personal, to ensure that my note here reaches its intended target.
in my early teens, i too was exposed to phases the extreme right, youth wing. it was another teenage friend of mine who did the honours. i started off by reading those journals and pamphlets, and used to get pretty worked up. surprisingly, my buddy, very soon exchanged his hitherto beliefs to the works of mao, and has gone over all the spectrum of political philosophies, and is now comfortably settled preaching marketing in some u.s. university.
but moi, am still raw enough to get worked up to a level of insanity, on reading inciting and violent verbal assaults, no matter what the subject may be. i was a naive teenager, and did not have the wherewithals to filter the hate. teenagers are impressionable, and i would imagine, that there is atleast one among them among our readership. teenagers are impressionable, and particularly in our culture, where the norm is to accept word of our elders, and not question, the resulting action can be self destructing.
it is often a wonderment to me. who is more guilty? the person who pulls the trigger? or the one who induced this person to do so? personally i feel mind games are deadlier than those bundles of self immolating bombs, for atleast these are focussed in their targets. people, who in the comfort of their armchair, availing the spuriuos gift of the pen, indulging in voyeurisms of cultish violence, and promoting the same under the guise of religious solidarity, all aimed at impressionable youth, are in my opinion, engaging in morally reprehensible acts, and do get stained by the spill of any residual blood. not on their bodies maybe, but indeligbly marked on their soul.
so sir, please answer my query, 'How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence. '
no more. no less.
thank you.
i agree with you, that too think that democracy in india is flawed. it is flawed everywhere it is practised, to various levels and extents. corruption, mafiadom or goondaism, special interest groups with their own agenda which may not be for the common good, - these are banes that are present everywhere.
more often than not, the fundamental process of change of government in an orderly fashion, leadership succession without violent upheavals, and above all, the feeling of enfranchisement - all these overwhelm the inbuilt weakness of democracies, particularly ours, which interms of history, is still in infancy.
for india, i think there is no other alternative, if we want to preserve our very large and many an ethnicity, within one political domain. much as we may despise our political parties, the fact remains, that every one of those who occupied the gaddi, do have to beg the electorate at periodical intervals for this privilege.
vox populi, in its purest form, expressed by that single 'x' mark across a symbol, prevails. we might not like the results, but we can have a glimpse of the alternates by viewing our neighbour pakistan. sure enough, it is a homogeneous one religion country, and with only a handful of dominant ethnic groups. ideally, they should way ahead of us, for genetically, and in 1947, started with a similar base of english educated intelligentsia at the helm of the adminstration.
any centralized overwhelming power, attempting to impose roughshod dictum from above, is a sure recipe for a civil war within india. even though our political parties might fight tooth and nail among themselves, i can see them uniting and in one stroke, bring the country to a permanent standstill and with violent bloodshed as a consequence. let us not even glimpse in that direction.
back to my query, if you don't mind. i have answered your issues, to the best of my ability. twice you have demurred a response to a somewhat intense appeal of mine. i will ask you once more and i would appreciate it, if you would just stick with the answer in your reply, taking into consideration the focus and the context in which this question was initially proposed to you. How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence.
ramaa (and saab whose silence is indeed deafening here), it would indeed be very presumptuous of me to expect an instant change in your beliefs or attitudes due to my beseech. after all, we come to this forum, with our set standards which we revel in expressing, finding like minded mates, and occassionally sparring partners. it is at this point, that i need to get a bit personal, to ensure that my note here reaches its intended target.
in my early teens, i too was exposed to phases the extreme right, youth wing. it was another teenage friend of mine who did the honours. i started off by reading those journals and pamphlets, and used to get pretty worked up. surprisingly, my buddy, very soon exchanged his hitherto beliefs to the works of mao, and has gone over all the spectrum of political philosophies, and is now comfortably settled preaching marketing in some u.s. university.
but moi, am still raw enough to get worked up to a level of insanity, on reading inciting and violent verbal assaults, no matter what the subject may be. i was a naive teenager, and did not have the wherewithals to filter the hate. teenagers are impressionable, and i would imagine, that there is atleast one among them among our readership. teenagers are impressionable, and particularly in our culture, where the norm is to accept word of our elders, and not question, the resulting action can be self destructing.
it is often a wonderment to me. who is more guilty? the person who pulls the trigger? or the one who induced this person to do so? personally i feel mind games are deadlier than those bundles of self immolating bombs, for atleast these are focussed in their targets. people, who in the comfort of their armchair, availing the spuriuos gift of the pen, indulging in voyeurisms of cultish violence, and promoting the same under the guise of religious solidarity, all aimed at impressionable youth, are in my opinion, engaging in morally reprehensible acts, and do get stained by the spill of any residual blood. not on their bodies maybe, but indeligbly marked on their soul.
so sir, please answer my query, 'How would you react if some day, one tearful mother/wife/sister pen a posting here, to the effect that thanks to the influence of your posts, her dear sondaughter/husband/brother perished while inciting communal violence. '
no more. no less.
thank you.
Last edited:
OP
OP
Ramaa
Guest
Dear Kunjuppu,
Glad you understand my point of view as much as you can.
I see a dichotomy in your argument. You talk of the whole of India and its divergent population and at the same time want to hide behind a contention that the Tamil Brahmins have nothing to do with what is going on in the country!
I do understand your query but it will have the same answer to my query to you: "how you can sleep in peace when thousands of innocents have lost their lives undefended because of the pacifism you have advocated?" Actually I should say 'you or anyone else'.
As I said before, we may have to watch how things turn out as you and i preach our divergent opinions to the readership. Ours is a very small blog and do not pose any challenge to anyone. We are merely using our freedom of speech to air what we feel. That is what the blogs do. from that kind of discussion.
I have not spoken anything that is not already out there in public domain. I simply agree with what I post unless i specifically disagree.
I hope you do stand for this freedom of expression and don't warn me of the consequence! I hope you don't want this to be merely an exchange place for curry recipe or the kind of discussion taking place in another thread that is a misfortune. (Yes, people should stay away from that kind of discussion, at least I would).
Regards,
Glad you understand my point of view as much as you can.
I see a dichotomy in your argument. You talk of the whole of India and its divergent population and at the same time want to hide behind a contention that the Tamil Brahmins have nothing to do with what is going on in the country!
I do understand your query but it will have the same answer to my query to you: "how you can sleep in peace when thousands of innocents have lost their lives undefended because of the pacifism you have advocated?" Actually I should say 'you or anyone else'.
As I said before, we may have to watch how things turn out as you and i preach our divergent opinions to the readership. Ours is a very small blog and do not pose any challenge to anyone. We are merely using our freedom of speech to air what we feel. That is what the blogs do. from that kind of discussion.
I have not spoken anything that is not already out there in public domain. I simply agree with what I post unless i specifically disagree.
I hope you do stand for this freedom of expression and don't warn me of the consequence! I hope you don't want this to be merely an exchange place for curry recipe or the kind of discussion taking place in another thread that is a misfortune. (Yes, people should stay away from that kind of discussion, at least I would).
Regards,
M
malgova.mango
Guest
Dear Kunjuppu!
I can't help , I need to interrupt.....
You have a point , in that law and order should not be taken into the hands of our youths , especially brahmin youths..... it is not our dharma to exercise thanda neethi.
But we do have a responsibility to bring awareness in what is wrong and what is right - don't we? Like Sage Vishwamitra asking Lord Rama to kill "Bhoothagi" . Atfirst Lord refused to kill a woman, then Sage as to counsel the Lord , telling that she is not a woman but an demoness .... Lord Krishna as to counsel Arjuna , to protect Dharma use weapon even if it is against your guru or grandfather.
But the problem is we don't have a kshatriya anymore....
But still it is our responsiblity to distinguish the good from the bad and inform our youths.
We are not disturbed , if there are muslims and christians - definetly we are not - they are praying and we are also praying only the style differs.. what problem ? no, nothing at all......
But if they throw bombs at Ganesh chaturthi processions, if they kill our saints who gaurd the people against conversions...If they destroy many tribal cultures with their conversion....then we are pained. We have to alert the people around. Please do not trust the government, do not trust the people converting others for it only brings disorder to the society, in time our culture will disappear as it happened in the lands of Persia. So stay awake or else you'll be swallowed like the snake a frog....
If that unsettles you, then please come up with some workable solutions...
Violence is no good is a good thing. But non-violence is equally no good ....
We need violence in the hands of our rulers, to bring peace to the country. The rulers need intelligence to distinguish good and bad..all are inter-connected.
Rama and Saab didn't ask our brahmin youth to take arms and engage in violence, they are just highlighting what's happening in the country.. Even if they don't do that people living in the country jolly well knows that...only they don't know how to fix it? if our value system for sathya and dharma is weakened , chaos are the result...
May be this is what they are trying to highlight. It is another way to say - hey BRAHMINS , your non-performance of your duties, your detoriating value system for our vedic studies, sathya and dharma results in this chaotic situation... So could you all wake up ......Like saints said in Thiruppavai and Thiruvembaavai - they are helping us to wake up.... I assume like that.....
Some thoughts... hope it is not of a disturbance to your peace....
Om Shanti!
"Lokas Samasthas Sukhino Bhavantu"
Regards,
p.s
If my memory is good, did you not wrote in your much early days article on the need of valour to our youths.?
I can't help , I need to interrupt.....
You have a point , in that law and order should not be taken into the hands of our youths , especially brahmin youths..... it is not our dharma to exercise thanda neethi.
But we do have a responsibility to bring awareness in what is wrong and what is right - don't we? Like Sage Vishwamitra asking Lord Rama to kill "Bhoothagi" . Atfirst Lord refused to kill a woman, then Sage as to counsel the Lord , telling that she is not a woman but an demoness .... Lord Krishna as to counsel Arjuna , to protect Dharma use weapon even if it is against your guru or grandfather.
But the problem is we don't have a kshatriya anymore....
But still it is our responsiblity to distinguish the good from the bad and inform our youths.
We are not disturbed , if there are muslims and christians - definetly we are not - they are praying and we are also praying only the style differs.. what problem ? no, nothing at all......
But if they throw bombs at Ganesh chaturthi processions, if they kill our saints who gaurd the people against conversions...If they destroy many tribal cultures with their conversion....then we are pained. We have to alert the people around. Please do not trust the government, do not trust the people converting others for it only brings disorder to the society, in time our culture will disappear as it happened in the lands of Persia. So stay awake or else you'll be swallowed like the snake a frog....
If that unsettles you, then please come up with some workable solutions...
Violence is no good is a good thing. But non-violence is equally no good ....
We need violence in the hands of our rulers, to bring peace to the country. The rulers need intelligence to distinguish good and bad..all are inter-connected.
Rama and Saab didn't ask our brahmin youth to take arms and engage in violence, they are just highlighting what's happening in the country.. Even if they don't do that people living in the country jolly well knows that...only they don't know how to fix it? if our value system for sathya and dharma is weakened , chaos are the result...
May be this is what they are trying to highlight. It is another way to say - hey BRAHMINS , your non-performance of your duties, your detoriating value system for our vedic studies, sathya and dharma results in this chaotic situation... So could you all wake up ......Like saints said in Thiruppavai and Thiruvembaavai - they are helping us to wake up.... I assume like that.....
Some thoughts... hope it is not of a disturbance to your peace....
Om Shanti!
"Lokas Samasthas Sukhino Bhavantu"
Regards,
p.s
If my memory is good, did you not wrote in your much early days article on the need of valour to our youths.?
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1) No one remembers that Islam actually entered India the peaceful way first in south India. All that the people associate the religion is with violence. For the simple reason that its pratitioners have been violent. Do we want the future generations to remember that we Hindus were violent?
2) Alieanating people of one culture or branding all of them as the same solves nothing. It isolates them and infuriates them further. Dalits converted to Islam were questioned recently regarding the bombings in Ahmedabad. Are those kind of divisions, the ones we want?
If a brahmin were to tell a non-brahmin something, immediately the NB might think the brahmin is up to something. If a non-brahmin were to tell a non-brahmin the same thing, he will not be seen as someone with something up his sleeve.
Similarly we want muslims in India to fight against terror elements. We want the common Tamil man to reject the LTTE ideaology, the northeast rebels to reject the seperatist attitude and so on. The change in everyone has to come from within. To do that we cannot alienate them. We need to give them a sense of belonging to us, so that they have the support base to raise their voice against the illegal elements within them; and work against them.
Truly speaking, India is not anybody's property. It belongs to Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Parsis, Animists, Everyone. We are nobody to espouse divisions.
To counter the missionaries, the solution is to take the same route taken by those missionaries - sponsor and support hindu charities that bring the hindu dharma in its truest essence to everyone - like that of Mata Amritanandamayi group, Chinmaya Mission, Art of Living group, Nityananda Group, Divine Life Society group, Sahaj Marg group, Brahmakumari group, and so on. Allow these people to make the changes from within the society, which they actually are. I do not see hinduism draining away. Instead I see it growing. Because awareness is growing. Communication channels are growing.
2) Alieanating people of one culture or branding all of them as the same solves nothing. It isolates them and infuriates them further. Dalits converted to Islam were questioned recently regarding the bombings in Ahmedabad. Are those kind of divisions, the ones we want?
If a brahmin were to tell a non-brahmin something, immediately the NB might think the brahmin is up to something. If a non-brahmin were to tell a non-brahmin the same thing, he will not be seen as someone with something up his sleeve.
Similarly we want muslims in India to fight against terror elements. We want the common Tamil man to reject the LTTE ideaology, the northeast rebels to reject the seperatist attitude and so on. The change in everyone has to come from within. To do that we cannot alienate them. We need to give them a sense of belonging to us, so that they have the support base to raise their voice against the illegal elements within them; and work against them.
Truly speaking, India is not anybody's property. It belongs to Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Parsis, Animists, Everyone. We are nobody to espouse divisions.
To counter the missionaries, the solution is to take the same route taken by those missionaries - sponsor and support hindu charities that bring the hindu dharma in its truest essence to everyone - like that of Mata Amritanandamayi group, Chinmaya Mission, Art of Living group, Nityananda Group, Divine Life Society group, Sahaj Marg group, Brahmakumari group, and so on. Allow these people to make the changes from within the society, which they actually are. I do not see hinduism draining away. Instead I see it growing. Because awareness is growing. Communication channels are growing.
H
hariharan1972
Guest
Ms HappyHindu,
My thoughts :
1. I dont know how a religion can be completely disassociated from it's practitioners. Just by saying 'Islam is a religion of peace' we cannot be oblivious to the terror motivated by religious fanaticism. I dont yet know of a School which is highly acclaimed, respected but all of it's students failed. If this metaphor can hold good, then the religion has to be evaluated based on the conduct of it's followers.
I am not sure i agree with your version of history on the entry of Islam, though i admit, i am severely challenged on the academic front.
2. I dont also accept your view about how History will view Hindus. I maintain very strongly that any review of a system/religion cannot be limited in context nor frozen in time. Just as Islam cannot be solely evaluated on the basis of 9/11, Hinduism cannot be held hostage to the Godhra carnage or a Modi or a Togadia or the VHP-BD goons.
The fair assessment of Hinduism in the long run, in my view, would reveal that it has been one of the most peaceful, if not the most, religions of the world.
3. No brainer. But the point here is whether it should be proportionately equitable (oxymoronish!). Secularism in India has been narrowed down to being simply "distancing from Hindu". (A harsher version would be "anti-Hindu") Or at best equitably obscurantist. The biggest discomfort today is that Hindus have started asserting their religious right and a small faction has resorted, unfortunately and against the tenets, to violent means. I dont think the "need to assert" is totally unjustified but the means surely are.
4. If you had seen Archbishop of Delhi discussing with Karan Thapar on devils advocate, i am not sure you would want to go down the missionaries way. The Arch made a sweeping assertion that all non-christian organizations "do service for political or other benefit" while the service of missionaries is due to their "commitment to Christ". Voila !
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/ban-bajrang-dal-protect-christians-in-india/74560-3-single.html
Hariharan-ji,
I agree with you on all points you have listed out.
My way of approaching things might be more the emotional way rather than the sensible way - and i am aware of it. And yep, am a zero in history
Its quite a situation actually - it beats me what stand shd i take or shd i take any stand at all.
I go by what i see amongst friends and family. I have yet to met a violent muslim face to face. But i have met a few tamils who advocated an extreme form of parochial attitude face to face. So from what i see, i can only say that the core of the prob (as it seems to me) is lack of any sense of belonging (mainly to the religion, which can extend to the country many times) with the so-called attitude of yours-versus-mine. Either we remediate this yours-versus-mine the Gandhian way or we go the Godse way (or which other way is available?). What goes from here on, only God can tell i suppose.
(btw, as u can see, am more challenged on the academic front than you are).
Regards.
I agree with you on all points you have listed out.
My way of approaching things might be more the emotional way rather than the sensible way - and i am aware of it. And yep, am a zero in history
Its quite a situation actually - it beats me what stand shd i take or shd i take any stand at all.
I go by what i see amongst friends and family. I have yet to met a violent muslim face to face. But i have met a few tamils who advocated an extreme form of parochial attitude face to face. So from what i see, i can only say that the core of the prob (as it seems to me) is lack of any sense of belonging (mainly to the religion, which can extend to the country many times) with the so-called attitude of yours-versus-mine. Either we remediate this yours-versus-mine the Gandhian way or we go the Godse way (or which other way is available?). What goes from here on, only God can tell i suppose.
(btw, as u can see, am more challenged on the academic front than you are).
Regards.
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