Krishna Vs Indra in the Rigveda (Contd. from Temples, Temples and Temples here)

[sangom]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Continued from —

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/temples/6039-temples-temples-temples-6.html#post78190

Dear Shri Zebra16,

Of the three versions given in your post here, I feel the truest is what Shri P. T. SRINIVAS IYENGAR, M.A. gives. But generally, anyone today will think twice before saying Krishna was an enemy of Indra and the former was destroyed by Indra, since Krishna, the once pastoral folk hero, has become one with the highest Godhead now in very many minds. (You might have noticed the harsh rebuke I got for merely suggesting that Krishna as a god or as an avataar is a late entry in the hindu pantheon.) But the fact seems to me to be that when a certain folk hero got a lot of acceptance as a hero in the minds of the masses and they began deifying that hero, our ancient Sanatana Dharma specialists immediately went about to "engulf & devour" such hero/s into our SD Pantheon by creating a special niche for him/her and making up enough stories to fix the coordinates of the newly admitted divinity w.r.t. the existing pantheon firmly — at times by even producing a new "purana" if that was considered essential. Krishna (with srimadbhagavata, harivamsa as supporting puranas) is the best example. Next we may cite Vithoba who also seems to have been a folk hero in the minds of the lower castes in today's N. Karnataka, S. Maharashtra regions. Some research points out to one "eeTTappa" (brick-maker) as the original name which has got metamorphosed into "ViTThala" and "ViTThOba".

Ayyappa of Sabarimala is perhaps the latest in this kind. "Iyyaappu" or "IyyaappO" becomes "ayyappa", morphs into a "hari-hara" progeny with suitable stories to support, kills a demonic "Mahishi" who could not be killed by any one else except Ayyappa as a mortal, etc. That is why I say that SD proselytised "gods" instead of believers in gods as the other, less intelligent, religions today seem to be struggling with. (Suppose we had our ancient rishis and purana writers today. Jesus Christ would have become a progeny of say Hari & Hara, adorned with a suitable sanskritized name and a fresh puranam - incorporating therein a sahasranamam, an "eeSa kavacam" and many stotras, would have come out and lo and behold! eesa becomes yet another SD divinity and with that one easy fiat all christians become SD followers! Compile a few more stories to drive in the allegorical lesson that eeSaa is less powerful as compared to our rishis and established godheads like Rama or Devi; you have sealed the "engulf & devour" operation of Christ !)

 

[Nara]

.....YouTube - 087 KRISHNA STORY - EXPLANATION OF ISTH DEV

Come on Renu, there are lot of places where you can celebrate Lord Sri Krishna to your hearts content. Shri Sangom started this thread to give some explanations to Zebra16 and why are you getting so upset? It looks as though you want to bury his post with a flood of YouTube links.

Such in-your-face response breeds ill-feelings, just my 2-cents.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Come on Renu, there are lot of places where you can celebrate Lord Sri Krishna to your hearts content. Shri Sangom started this thread to give some explanations to Zebra16 and why are you getting so upset? It looks as though you want to bury his post with a flood of YouTube links.

Such in-your-face response breeds ill-feelings, just my 2-cents.

Cheers!

Ok Nara..you asked for it!!!
U are being a total fake here..u know the reason..i cant type more personal than this.
See its Krishna Vs Indira so whats wrong with the Video?
I am not upset.I have the right to voice my opinion too may be this Videos make the explanation here easier.
I cant bury anything I havent put the deluge links yet..

Nara..just leave me alone...
please...I am not an unstable emotional person as u are making me seem.
Just as u feel I am getting upset..i can throw back the same question to you..why are you getting upset with what I pasted in this thread?
I havent done any Adharmic action here.
It doesnt matter if anyone gets ill feelings..they have every right to feel how they want.I dont control their emotions.


P.S..in fact earlier I had put some other videos and a song too and that i deleted cos I thought I was not in line with this link.


If the moderator feels this Videos are not appropriate he can delete them..I wont complain.
my 2 Ringgit(RM 2)

 

[renuka]

Ok Nara...

I deleted the Videos of Lord Krishna since you were objecting.
I know you dont like others playing in your fields of interest but you launch attack in every other Kshetra possible.

 

[Nara]

Ok Nara...

I deleted the Videos of Lord Krishna since you were objecting.
I know you dont like others playing in your fields of interest but you launch attack in every other Kshetra possible.

Renu, I have no problem if you go after me or Shri Sangom on what we say, but what you did was to simply post a huge big list of YouTube links.

What sort of attacks do you think I launch in every other kshetra? Could you be more specific? If I was rude I am ready to offer unconditional apology.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Come on Renu, there are lot of places where you can celebrate Lord Sri Krishna to your hearts content. Shri Sangom started this thread to give some explanations to Zebra16 and why are you getting so upset? It looks as though you want to bury his post with a flood of YouTube links.

Such in-your-face response breeds ill-feelings, just my 2-cents.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

How Smt. Renuka comes out, as a result of her postings, is for everyone else to judge. But I feel she ought to have put this clip instead.

Krishna's description of Indra as a sensuous deity always frolicking, probably got deeply embedded into his (Krishna's) own psyche, IMO . In this way the video may be substituted, if SM so feels.

The fact is there for all to see and judge; the scribe/s who wrote Sreemadbhagavatha were trying to put down indra and, (if one carefully listens to the conversations in the video clip) all the vedic gods/deities thereby and trying to promote the newly discovered "avataar" Krishna over those old, expired medicines called vedic gods. Lest indra as a "विलासी देवता (है) जो केवल राग रंग में गिराहै और मौज मजा कर्ते ही रह्ता है" went unreplaced, these scribes probably shaped Krishna himself in the very same mold as a true substitute for him (indra).

But if Krishna is not जो ऐसा निर्दय है उसे भगवान कैसे कह्ते हैं? भगवान उसे कह्ते हैं जो भक्तों के भूल क्षमा कर्नेवाले हैं। (How can one be called bhagavan if he is so unkind; bhagavan is one who will pardon the lapses of his bhaktas.) like indra, and is a godhead who is equi-poised in dealing with every one here in this world, why is it that Krishna needs so much of bhakti and so many bhaktas who are so fanatic? I am confused.

Just my two paise.(Not to be left behind)

 

[subbudu1]

Without being skeptical of Krishna, I have a sincere doubt. Wish a devotee of Krishna can answer this one for me.

One can see beauty even things like rasa lila and butter stories of Krishna. And any case childhood acts and acts done with permission of everyone cannot be called wrong.

But there is one doubt of his action as an adult.As far as I know sishupala insulted Krishna. Why was he killed for insulting Krishna. Sincere doubt requiring answer from a devotee.

 

[sangom]

Without being skeptical of Krishna, I have a sincere doubt. Wish a devotee of Krishna can answer this one for me.

One can see beauty even things like rasa lila and butter stories of Krishna. And any case childhood acts and acts done with permission of everyone cannot be called wrong.

But there is one doubt of his action as an adult.As far as I know sishupala insulted Krishna. Why was he killed for insulting Krishna. Sincere doubt requiring answer from a devotee.

Dear Shri Subbudu1,

Sisupalan was Krishna's "athan" - father's sister's son. At birth Sisupala is said to have had 3 eyes and four hands. A "bhootam" came and announced that Sisupalan would be very mighty and that only one person in the whole world would be capable of killing him; it also said that if the child ever sat on the thigh of its would-be killer, its third eye would disappear. Hence Sisupala's father, the Chedi king, used to place the child on the lap of all the people who visited the child. Once when Krishna & Balarama went to their athai's house in the Chedi palace, the athimbar did the same when the third eye of the child suddenly disappeared. Sisupala's mother "Srithasravas" understood the import and asked Krishna to promise that he would never kill her son. To this Krishna replied that he would pardon 100 mistakes but when Sisupala commits the 101st. mistake, he would kill Sisupala.

The 101st. time Sisupala committed the mistake (here Krishna is the judge and the final arbiter and so we may not have all the hundred other lapses anywhere) during the raajasuya of Dharmaputra and so he was then killed.

 

[subbudu1]

The 101st. time Sisupala committed the mistake (here Krishna is the judge and the final arbiter and so we may not have all the hundred other lapses anywhere) during the raajasuya of Dhritarashtra and so he was then killed.

You are right about the story . But this is where we need the view of a devotee. My question has not been asked to insult krishna or his devotees.

 

[sangom]

You are right about the story . But this is where we need the view of a devotee. My question has not been asked to insult krishna or his devotees.

I am not a devotee. Yet I would say that each one of us should rather try and become true devotees of Krishna so that after 100 mistakes, we will be killed by Krishna and then we will all attain Vaikuntha. (That, as you probably know, is the reward/bonus which all those who get killed by the avataras get .)

 

[Raghy]

I don't understand the Sanskrit verses and the related discussion from Rig veda etc.

But even as a kid, I knew this - Indra was opposed by Krsna. When the residents of Gokulam conducted a pooja and presented offerings to Indira, Krsna stopped them and accepted those offerings instead. Indra was not amused by this. So he sent a huge thunder storm and the works towards Gokulam... To save the residents, Krsna lifted the 'Govardhana Giri' and balanced it on one finger...People, cattle and sundry took shelter under the raised cliff. That was the end of offerings for Indra.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka need not have removed those youtube videos; need not get upset either. I sincerely hope she posts those videos back.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom Sir,

.....To this Krishna replied that he would pardon 100 mistakes but when Sisupala commits the 101st. mistake, he would kill Sisupala.

I thought Krsna would pardon 1,000 mistakes. Was it only 100?

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri.Sangom Sir,



I thought Krsna would pardon 1,000 mistakes. Was it only 100?

Cheers!

The book I referred (Puranic Encyclopaedia by Vettom Mani, incidentally, a Christian!) says it was 100. Could be wrong.

 

[Brahin]

I am not a devotee. Yet I would say that each one of us should rather try and become true devotees of Krishna so that after 100 mistakes, we will be killed by Krishna and then we will all attain Vaikuntha. (That, as you probably know, is the reward/bonus which all those who get killed by the avataras get .)

Dear sangam see 1st let me correct u krishna never killed his devotees & 2nd thing why u want to became sisupala & do 100 mistakes bcz than also u wont be able to attain vakuntha.....

 

[Brahin]

Dear Sangom who r we to comment on who is early entry & who is late entry do u think yours is very early entry to comment on god........

 

[renuka]

I don't understand the Sanskrit verses and the related discussion from Rig veda etc.

But even as a kid, I knew this - Indra was opposed by Krsna. When the residents of Gokulam conducted a pooja and presented offerings to Indira, Krsna stopped them and accepted those offerings instead. Indra was not amused by this. So he sent a huge thunder storm and the works towards Gokulam... To save the residents, Krsna lifted the 'Govardhana Giri' and balanced it on one finger...People, cattle and sundry took shelter under the raised cliff. That was the end of offerings for Indra.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka need not have removed those youtube videos; need not get upset either. I sincerely hope she posts those videos back.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,
I am not putting those links here..may be I will post it in some other thread..some other day.
I am not upset Dear Raghy..I removed it cos it was facing opposition and it will only invite more damaging responses..many dont get it that I am not declaring a war againts anyone who doesnt think like me but its Ok..I have other threads to write what I feel..(but I wont give up defending what I feel needs to be defended in my own way after all the Mind Is Mightier Than The Keyboard)

Thanks anyway..
Renu

 

[sangom]

shri/smt (?) Brahin,

My post #10 was a reply to Shri Subbudu. I tried to tell him one of the plus points of becoming a devotee of Krishna (though I am myself not one). That is all to it. If that looks to you as though all Krishna devotees are Sisupalas, I have no comments.

Dear Sangom who r we to comment on who is early entry & who is late entry do u think yours is very early entry to comment on god........

I do not get what you mean. What I said was that the Sanatana Dharma (SD) had one set of Gods or Devas like indra, agni, rudra etc., and then we got newer gods like varaahamurthy, Narasimha, Parasurama, Sreerama etc. Krishna as a God was introduced even later than the first batch referred to above. Hope the matter is clear.

 

[Brahin]

shri/smt (?) Brahin,

My post #10 was a reply to Shri Subbudu. I tried to tell him one of the plus points of becoming a devotee of Krishna (though I am myself not one). That is all to it. If that looks to you as though all Krishna devotees are Sisupalas, I have no comments. Smt. sangom... i wrote there very clear that Krishna never killed his devotees so if ur still confused about his devotees than please change ur glasses u need new set immediately.

 

[Brahin]

Smt Sangom I wrote there clearly that Krishna never killed his devotees & if still ur confused than please change ur glasses immediately...

 

[Brahin]

I do not get what you mean. What I said was that the Sanatana Dharma (SD) had one set of Gods or Devas like indra, agni, rudra etc., and then we got newer gods like varaahamurthy, Narasimha, Parasurama, Sreerama etc. Krishna as a God was introduced even later than the first batch referred to above. Hope the matter is clear.[/QUOTE]
See people are already divided according to caste sub caste so now why u want to divide god according to new & late entry.....

 

[Raghy]

Smt Sangom I wrote there clearly that Krishna never killed his devotees & if still ur confused than please change ur glasses immediately...

Dear Sri.Brahin,

Greetings. (It is Sriman. Sangom. Sri.Sangom is a male). Sri.Krishna or Sriman Narayana Killed his devotees.

The story goes like this.....

Brighu once visited all the 'three logas namely Brahma, Kailasa and Vaikunda'. He was not received well... He cursed Brahma that there would be no temple for him; Siva was in intimacy and did not notice Brighu.... Siva was cursed, that he would be worshipped in Phallic symbol....... At Vaikunda Loga, 'Dwara Balagas Jaya and Vijaya stopped him; Brighu cursed them that they would be born as Asuras.....

Jaya and Vijaya appealed to Maha Vishnu. Maha Vishnu granted them that they would be killed only by him. Jaya and Vijaya accepted that honour since they were devotees of Maha Vishnu.

Jaya and Vijaya were born as Hiranyakshan and Hiranya Kasibu; Kamsan and Sisu Balan and some more pair, I don't remember all the names. May be Ravana and Kumbakarna were amoung them too, I am not too sure.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Raghy,

Its Sishupal and Dantavakra.
Yes you are right..Ravan and Kumbhakaran.
No Raghs..thats not "killing"..see murder can come under various categories..

First-degree murder is the most egregious and sinister type of murder; it involves causing someone else’s death through forethought, deliberation, and/or malice.

Second-degree murder, or voluntary manslaughter, arises out of spontaneous and sudden emotion. Those convicted of second-degree murder have been found guilty of acting out of overwhelming anger, fear, or jealousy.

Finally, third-degree murder, or involuntary manslaughter, is an act of murder that was committed without forethought or malice. These “accidental” murders usually occur due to reckless or wrongful use of firearms, drugs and other medications, explosives, motor vehicles, and other objects that can be deadly when misused. The charge of third-degree murder is often founded on an act of negligence, or a failure to act as a reasonable person would under similar circumstances.

taken from:Classifications Of Murder: What Determines The Degree Of A Murder?

Where can we classify the act of the so called "killing" of Jaya and Vijaya?

Ok what you have mentioned about the killing of devotees by Lord Vishnu was a deal that was accepted by both Jaya and Vijaya..they both were cursed to have 7 births as devotees in Bhuloka but they chose to have 3 births as the "anti heroes" so that they can come back to Vaikuntha as soon as possible.They could have chosen the 7 births instead..It was their desire..Thats whats Karma is all about.
They were the ultimate Bhaktas who didnt mind losing their lifes as an anti hero all for the sake of their Love for God.

See none of us know our previous birth dealings do we? A dying mothers intense desire to care for her new born can make her be reborn as his wife cos Karma is based on desires and thoughts and not bodily relationships.

So for all practical purposes the Trio Jamna of Hiranyakashipu-Hiranyaksha, Ravan-Kumbhakaran,Sishupal -Dantavakra desires and wishes were full filled.
I had used to word Anti Hero to describe them cos they are Heros in their own right cos we learn a lot through them.
Thats why they are close to God.

 

[Brahin]

Dear Sri.Brahin,

Greetings. (It is Sriman. Sangom. Sri.Sangom is a male). Sri.Krishna or Sriman Narayana Killed his devotees.

The story goes like this.....

Brighu once visited all the 'three logas namely Brahma, Kailasa and Vaikunda'. He was not received well... He cursed Brahma that there would be no temple for him; Siva was in intimacy and did not notice Brighu.... Siva was cursed, that he would be worshipped in Phallic symbol....... At Vaikunda Loga, 'Dwara Balagas Jaya and Vijaya stopped him; Brighu cursed them that they would be born as Asuras.....

Jaya and Vijaya appealed to Maha Vishnu. Maha Vishnu granted them that they would be killed only by him. Jaya and Vijaya accepted that honour since they were devotees of Maha Vishnu.

Jaya and Vijaya were born as Hiranyakshan and Hiranya Kasibu; Kamsan and Sisu Balan and some more pair, I don't remember all the names. May be Ravana and Kumbakarna were amoung them too, I am not too
Dear Raghy may be ur right but they got killed only when they were not devotees in that birth...

 

[happyhindu]

Brahin dear,

If you do not like something, you do have an option -- do not read it any further, or start your own thread to say what you want. Surely you can leave this thread alone. Because its not about you alone. There are readers like me who are interested in knowing about the triad avataras of Jaya-Vijaya, of the role of Krishna and what it all means from the historical pov.

Your comments to Shri Sangom in posts 14, 15, 18, 19 are bad. Just because you do not like something does not mean that you make the kind of remarks you have on Sangom sir.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Raghy,

Its Sishupal and Dantavakra.
Yes you are right..Ravan and Kumbhakaran.
No Raghs..thats not "killing"..see murder can come under various categories..

First-degree murder is the most egregious and sinister type of murder; it involves causing someone else’s death through forethought, deliberation, and/or malice.

Second-degree murder, or voluntary manslaughter, arises out of spontaneous and sudden emotion. Those convicted of second-degree murder have been found guilty of acting out of overwhelming anger, fear, or jealousy.

Finally, third-degree murder, or involuntary manslaughter, is an act of murder that was committed without forethought or malice. These “accidental” murders usually occur due to reckless or wrongful use of firearms, drugs and other medications, explosives, motor vehicles, and other objects that can be deadly when misused. The charge of third-degree murder is often founded on an act of negligence, or a failure to act as a reasonable person would under similar circumstances.

taken from:Classifications Of Murder: What Determines The Degree Of A Murder?

Where can we classify the act of the so called "killing" of Jaya and Vijaya?

Ok what you have mentioned about the killing of devotees by Lord Vishnu was a deal that was accepted by both Jaya and Vijaya..they both were cursed to have 7 births as devotees in Bhuloka but they chose to have 3 births as the "anti heroes" so that they can come back to Vaikuntha as soon as possible.They could have chosen the 7 births instead..It was their desire..Thats whats Karma is all about.
They were the ultimate Bhaktas who didnt mind losing their lifes as an anti hero all for the sake of their Love for God.

See none of us know our previous birth dealings do we? A dying mothers intense desire to care for her new born can make her be reborn as his wife cos Karma is based on desires and thoughts and not bodily relationships.

So for all practical purposes the Trio Jamna of Hiranyakashipu-Hiranyaksha, Ravan-Kumbhakaran,Sishupal -Dantavakra desires and wishes were full filled.
I had used to word Anti Hero to describe them cos they are Heros in their own right cos we learn a lot through them.
Thats why they are close to God.

I would expect god to demonstrate good to mankind. Jaya and Vijaya may have been something and not everybody can be expected to believe these stories. But the acts of god must be self explanatory. May be difficult to understand but must be explainable. I see two things. Sishupala got angry with krishna and kept on insulting him. The price that he paid was eventually death. Was that reasonable is the question?. I think the stories in Mahabharata may contain more clues regarding the character of sishupala. That is what is needed to pass a judgement.