Let a Dalit become a Sankaracharya !! தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங

[happyhindu]

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What I find it amusing is that Advaita is an impossible/Next to impossible philosophy to attain. It needs a lot of faith in Acharya. It is not relevant if Shankara was in favor of or against caste. I dont see how the debate will ever die down on what he wrote or what he did not write. Any dalit reading his views on castes will be shaken in his faith and deep down saying that- " I hope he did not advocate caste" This will be a lingering question and I am not sure how anyone who doubts caste can become a Shankaracharya in full confidence. One needs to shake up one's views and dry one's emotions before becoming a Shankaracharya.

A Dalit needs to revisit his complete worldview before being a Shanakaracharya , by then he would not even be a Dalit by worldview.

I may agree with you that Adi Shankaracharya upheld caste-discrimination. It merely shows Adi Shankara also did not expect to see democracy one day. Anyways, such a view need not apply for all times. Or we wud be stuck like taliban in the medieval ages. Buddha made sickening fun of brahmins. But accepted them as disciples. Hopefully the same will apply here too.

 

[happyhindu]

i think, its better to have a clarification about every ones individual academic credentials, for many of us here are more inclined to the supporting proof from scholarly works. there are here lot of professors who had shared their links to their university, and their research papers, some to their company profiles.

i know, you are a very transparent person, and would appreciate if you could also share/prove your academic qualifications,vide any university url/or published pappers. this will help you to shut the mouth of those to taunters.. hope you will come clear on that, cos , like me, many of us here are more appreciative towards your knowledge (if not for google), and wish you to come up open on this, with academic proofs. thank you

What has my qualifications got to do with this discussion? Nice try ShivKC. Who i am is not important. The points i am stating are important. For things i am stating, i can cite books, inscriptions, papers, etc.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Subbudu sir,

I am not following this thread very closely, and therefore I may be misunderstanding your stand because I am missing some subtleties.
Cheers!

sh.nara, i am only worried, why all of a sudden you are not actively engaged in a discussion here.

a croc tear! or a chanakya strategy?

nothing personal. was wondering your absence here .. awaiting your smart , fire fighting tactics

i need you here, sir.

 

[happyhindu]

Considering that not many brahmins themselves are able to follow the way of life, inspite of many being dynamic and exceptional, indicates that a non brahmin will be flooded with doubts on questions of rituals, mantras their value and worthiness. Is it really necessary to live a life full of doubt, rather then lead a straightforward life as a Professional enjoying modern comforts. The choice is there lest it is too late before they take a plunge into unmeasured depths of a storm.

Subbudu sir, those who truly are brahmins are even today following a strict life. Looks like the ones incapable of a strict life are those who are not-real-brahmins. Why even bother to compare such people with anyone else...

 

[DrBarani]

I wholeheartedly agree we must debate the issue not the person / his background. If so, then you too wud not say this to me, you wud have addresed only the issue (shd i take this to be intimidation tactics by psychological games?):
1) But you seem to bother so much about a phantom superiority and that it somehow affected so many people.
2) You are making a mountain out of a mole.

Those were about your arguments, not your background. I am sure you know the difference.

So parpanars did occupations.

We use the term "brahmins". The slang "parpanar" is used as a derogatory version by some political circles. What is your intention of using it here? I ignored it for a while but you somehow think it gives you an upper hand in an argument.

If so, then, what was the need for them to beg. Unless someone was a renunciate sanyasi. Are present-day brahmins claiming they descended from renunciate sanyasis? Please can you tell me why should a purohit beg when he is given things, as his fees for conducting ceremonies?

It is clear you do not understand the life cycle of a Brahmin. A brahmin is supposed to beg and eat during some years of his life to learn the lessons of a saintly life. That has no conflict of interest with his occupation that he performs later. Since you are not aware of the various stages of how a Brahmin is supposed to life, how can you make judgmental calls about them?

So sir, you are saying there were poor brahmins in ramayana, mahabharata? I can remember sudhama and drona being poor. Sir, are you saying present-day brahmins descended from brahmins of ramayana, mahabharata? Also sir, are you saying all brahmins were always poor based on these stories?

Those are evidences. Rarely there are examples of rich landlord brahmins ruling a tribe.

There is inscriptional evidence that they were brahmins. Also sir, if we must accept stories, we must accept the list of kshatropeta-brahmanas (kshatriyas claiming to be brahmins) also.

Correct. All historical evidence must be used in making inferences. That is the scientific way. However, the final inference must be statistically significant.

Sangom sir, if you are around, can you please explain the long-standing fights between brahmins and kshatriyas to Dr.Barani please?

Not required. Not just Brahmins, there was ALWAYS fight between various groups, Brahmins vs Jains, Brahmins vs Buddhists, Brahmins vs Kshatriyas, Jains vs Buddhists, Jains vs .... That doesn't mean anything at all. It doesn't prove Brahmins somehow were discrimanating Dalits.

I said - "Did i say brahmins did some harm? No i did not. I only said brahmins were rich". This pertained to your claims that brahmins were always poor. Not to the caste-discrimination part. Was there caste-discrimination? Yes there was. There is ample evidence from the colonial period itself how brahmins discriminated against low-castes... i suppose when the landed became landless, they did learn their lesson.

Lets see... according to you brahmins were rich, they had weapons, they were rulers, they fought others, they oppressed others and held themselves superior by putting others down. I think you are using the wrong word, you should use "British" instead of Brahmins!

Till date, brahmins (the orthodoxy) upholds smrithis which says a shudra cannot own wealth,

I am a brahmin and I say we brahmins are not dictated or even driven by Smirthis. How come YOU get such a wrong notion about what WE believe in?!

You may not allow anyone to touch you, but that does not mean a group has to remain untouchables by birth by caste.

It means you are unnecessarily worrying about what other groups believe in.

If a Brahmin doesn't want to touch you, it is his right. You can make your own rules too - don't touch a brahmin!

Yes they are rubbish. If they are rubbish, why are they upheld by mutts? Why should it be the face of our orthodoxy?

What do you mean "our orthodoxy"? You don't believe in it anyway! It is brahmin's orthodoxy then. You are free to set up your own mutt with your own set of rules. What prevents you from doing it? Why are you so desperate that some group you don't like for some strange reason should come over and change their rules to accommodate you?

Sorry sir, but this academic logic is ridiculous. You are expecting dalits to write that 'we are superior'...(????)...makes no sense really...

Why not? You are repeatedly citing Smirthis as if they are some great weapons owned by brahmins but you don't want to create such things to defend your cause.

Looks like the advice applies one-way. Anyways, everyone knows caste-excuse is not going to help anyone. Its brahmins who make a lot of noise claiming reservations should be removed.

Yes, reservation should be removed. Reservation is about Constitutional rights. Constitution treats everyone equal. You talk about caste-based equality but you don't want constitutional equality. That is double standard on your part.

Something tells me you are not a practicing Brahmin and you are not aware of the norms under which a Brahmin is supposed to live. You have picked some isolated evidences to make claims that they are after you to oppress you and rule. Sorry, that is not in this planet.

 

[nachi naga]

if people speak truth,love always,live righteously,be peaceful,be in blissful state of mind,and practice non-violence in speech writing thinking- then all can become shankara acharyas or a jeer or a pope or a shaikh or a rabbi or a servant of god.there is one caste,the caste of humanity ,there is one race the race of the soul.:kiss:

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

By the way I am eager to know about the much talked about scheme of making Dalits priests of temples in Tamil Nadu.

Not Pujaris. There are already Dalit Pujaris in temples where the Brahmins also worship.

How many Dalits have become priests in Agamic temples?

An answer that they are being trained is chappai kattu. It does not require years of training to be a priests. a knowledge of the daily rituals is sufficient.

 

[ShivKC]

I may agree with you that Adi Shankaracharya upheld caste-discrimination. It merely shows Adi Shankara also did not expect to see democracy one day. .

democracy was there in Plato's Greek times, 1000 years well before Ādi Śaṅkarācārya.. and by that time line, India was far ahead of Greeks, and even now, as on date. why should we abandon Sankaras teachings, just because Brits said so to follow democracy? if so, then prove, Plato is better than Ādi Śaṅkarācārya? im with you there.

 

[happyhindu]

what does that mean, ' not countering a persons view, just out of respect?' doest that mean, one is not valuing the views, but only worried about the person.

few months ago, it was advocated, dont go by the persons identity, but go by his posts & views..worried what happened to that stand

how great it is! some one wants NOT to question sh.naachinarkiniyan (he is just another human being like me and you), but have the audacity to question the revered Acharyal, their teachings and on top of it, making fun out of kanchi mathams ? esp, with all the artistic linguistic flowered writings in english.

should i call it as a strategy in debate?

I owe you no explanation ShivKC. Conjure up as you will. Those with whom there was private correspondence know what i meant. And that will suffice.

Also ShivKC, for me you are too debased, the ecchiellai-naayi name-calling kind (i shd remind you that's what you called me just a few months back). Now you even make posts addressed to me. How nice. Buzz off sir, you get no responses from me from now on.

 

[happyhindu]

By the way I am eager to know about the much talked about scheme of making Dalits priests of temples in Tamil Nadu.

Not Pujaris. There are already Dalit Pujaris in temples where the Brahmins also worship.

How many Dalits have become priests in Agamic temples?

An answer that they are being trained is chappai kattu. It does not require years of training to be a priests. a knowledge of the daily rituals is sufficient.

I heard TTD has already deployed priests from other backgrounds. Need to check though. Will let you know soon. Am logging off now. Will continue later.

Btw, what's the meaning of chappai kattu?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

TTD is not in Tamil Nadu and neither the temple Agamic. It is not part of the government of Tamil Nadu scheme.

 

[DrBarani]

By the way I am eager to know about the much talked about scheme of making Dalits priests of temples in Tamil Nadu.

Not Pujaris. There are already Dalit Pujaris in temples where the Brahmins also worship.

How many Dalits have become priests in Agamic temples?

An answer that they are being trained is chappai kattu. It does not require years of training to be a priests. a knowledge of the daily rituals is sufficient.

There are even simpler examples to prove that

Brahmins held NonBrahmins as the upper caste.

Here is how:

Almost ALL of the Gods that Brahmins worship are NonBrahmin Gods.

-Shiva is an undertaker caste

-SriRama was a Kshatriya

-Krishna was a Yadav

-casteless Muruga married hunter caste (valli)

-the only Brahmin God Brahma doesn't have any Temple in the country (ok recently one, but thats it)

I can go on listing a lot more. In spite of cornering all Godly spots why do these nonbrahmins have any inferiority complex? I have no clue.

 

[ShivKC]

What has my qualifications got to do with this discussion? Nice try ShivKC. Who i am is not important. The points i am stating are important. For things i am stating, i can cite books, inscriptions, papers, etc.

HappyHindu, this being a community portal, in order to have a family feeling, its better that, we share as much info as we could possibly and get tied to TB family of the distant. if some one asks the postal address hoping i'm a Vadhyar,, then its different but up to individual..

but then , since we are discussing here in academic line, its better one identifies themselves about ones academic certificated, so that the discussions can be set on the same line on par, and be made more healthy..

here we have lot of enginners, doctors, Phds, professors who identified themselves,without asking, so that, we as a tb family ,can stay focused on our discussions as a community helping each other.

for eg, smt, renuka identified her self as doc of malaysia, i appreciate, cos, if any of our TB foks of malaysia are in medical probs, we could refer her.... hoping that she would be helpful (not sure though)..

after all, this is a community portal indeed and we are a family here.lets be transparent.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Ramayanam was written by Valmiki a Dalit. Veda Vyasa's mother Sathyavati was a fisher women again a Dalit.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

A Dalit could become a Maharishi. The son of a prostitute Jabala, Sathyakama could learn the Vedas.

 

[happyhindu]

We use the term "brahmins". The slang "parpanar" is used as a derogatory version by some political circles. What is your intention of using it here? I ignored it for a while but you somehow think it gives you an upper hand in an argument.

Why is the term derogatory? Till date most people in my family use the term parpana varu with respect. Also parpanas (parpana varu) of Tholkappiyam are a different set and vedic-brahmins are a different set of people (Ref: George Hart's research). When i use the term parpanas, i mean the old native priests, philosophers of the sangam age.

It is clear you do not understand the life cycle of a Brahmin. A brahmin is supposed to beg and eat during some years of his life to learn the lessons of a saintly life. That has no conflict of interest with his occupation that he performs later. Since you are not aware of the various stages of how a Brahmin is supposed to life, how can you make judgmental calls about them?

Alright, you please explain to us the life cycle of a brahmin. Conflict of occupation includes warfare, trade?

Those are evidences. Rarely there are examples of rich landlord brahmins ruling a tribe.

you want evidence of cheiftains and kings being called brahmins, i suppose, allright, i shall provide the list soon. (just give me a week's time).

Not required. Not just Brahmins, there was ALWAYS fight between various groups, Brahmins vs Jains, Brahmins vs Buddhists, Brahmins vs Kshatriyas, Jains vs Buddhists, Jains vs .... That doesn't mean anything at all. It doesn't prove Brahmins somehow were discrimanating Dalits.

Everyone was discriminating against dalits. Not just brahmins. But brahmins uphold smrithis and justify it in the present day and time, that is the difficulty. Other castes still involve in petty caste fights. If only brahmins can facilitate a flexible caste-system, without so much ado, things wud have impacted social life for the better...

I am a brahmin and I say we brahmins are not dictated or even driven by Smirthis. How come YOU get such a wrong notion about what WE believe in?!

Who cares what we think. What you or me believes in makes no diff to the public. What the mutts propagate makes a difference.

shall continue tomorrow, need to go now..

 

[happyhindu]

HappyHindu, this being a community portal, in order to have a family feeling, its better that, we share as much info as we could possibly and get tied to TB family of the distant. if some one asks the postal address hoping i'm a Vadhyar,, then its different but up to individual..

but then , since we are discussing here in academic line, its better one identifies themselves about ones academic certificated, so that the discussions can be set on the same line on par, and be made more healthy..

here we have lot of enginners, doctors, Phds, professors who identified themselves,without asking, so that, we as a tb family ,can stay focused on our discussions as a community helping each other.

for eg, smt, renuka identified her self as doc of malaysia, i appreciate, cos, if any of our TB foks of malaysia are in medical probs, we could refer her.... hoping that she would be helpful (not sure though)..

after all, this is a community portal indeed and we are a family here.lets be transparent.

Give me your name, qualifications, family details first. If you do, i may consider giving my details. For now i cannot promise anything. Praveen knows my details as well some members. For now, that's enuf.

 

[ShivKC]

I owe you no explanation ShivKC. Conjure up as you will. Those with whom there was private correspondence know what i meant. And that will suffice.

Also ShivKC, for me you are too debased, the ecchiellai-naayi name-calling kind (i shd remind you that's what you called me just a few months back). Now you even make posts addressed to me. How nice. Buzz off sir, you get no responses from me from now on.

happy, i think you misunderstood me.. this is the problem with you, for you not know TAMIL. I am also referring this post for moderation..


ecchiellai-naayi, let me put the script in tamil again, எச்சி இலை நாய்.. this was posted by sh.***, and I was the first one to condemn him for posting such views..

Since you dont know how to read tamil script, you mistook me wrong for, that countering post, aired towards sh.***.

if you dont believe it, pls give me some time to dig in to the archives... I would never ever address or addressed some one like that in my life.. hope you stand clear..

PS: for sure im referring that post of yours for moderation, if you dont call back that post targeted to me

 

[DrBarani]

...and I was the first one to condemn him for posting such views..

Since you dont know how to read tamil script, you mistook me wrong for, that countering post, aired towards sh.***.

if you dont believe it, pls give me some time to dig in to the archives... I would never ever address or addressed some one like that in my life.. hope you stand clear..

If someone was that rude to use such a language in this forum, I will personally drop my Brahminism and go after the culprit.

There may be some heated arguments here, but I must concede (as I said before) that every one here is a walking genius and deserves to be credited the highest commendation. I may disagree with HH's position but I have nothing but admiration and awe for that person's knowledge spectrum and ability to loggerhead with many people at the same time.

 

[happyhindu]

happy, i think you misunderstood me.. this is the problem with you, for you not know TAMIL. I am also referring this post for moderation..


ecchiellai-naayi, let me put the script in tamil again, எச்சி இலை நாய்.. this was posted by sh.***, and I was the first one to condemn him for posting such views..

Since you dont know how to read tamil script, you mistook me wrong for, that countering post, aired towards sh.***.

if you dont believe it, pls give me some time to dig in to the archives... I would never ever address or addressed some one like that in my life.. hope you stand clear..

PS: for sure im referring that post of yours for moderation, if you dont call back that post targeted to me

Quick note -

Venkat used the word street-dog. But you did your name-calling and passed it off as Venkat's analogy. Here is the post: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...on-interpretting-scriptures-16.html#post68485

I can read tamil using translit sofware, find large text diff though.

You have been hounding me for my identity for quite sometime now. I reserve the right to reply or not reply to you.

 

[ShivKC]

If someone was that rude to use such a language in this forum, I will personally drop my Brahminism and go after the culprit.

.

i stand by you sir. there was one person by name sh.***, who was not posting such language in tamil script, though not targeted towards smt.HH, but he addressed it as an analogy.. but HH took it as personal and *** *** exited the forum. and me too condemned for using such words in tamil script..

i wonder why HH is portraying that I used such words, which i would never use it my life. still i would give the benefit of doubt to HH, for she not being a tamilian of TB.. if HH challenges, i can put forth some time to dig out the archives of sh.***..

 

[DrBarani]

I read the link given by HH, but I didn't see ShivKC using it in any negative sense. He was merely citing it while extending his support to HH. Given that he has clarified it a second time, I think HH should not hold him guilty over that thread.

Also, I think if someone wants to remain anonymous in a forum we must respect their wish. There are very many reasons why one wants to remain anonymous and they need not discuss those reasons either.

 

[happyhindu]

Nachi sir, Subbudu sir, Barani sir,

Plenty of stuff to reply and discuss as yet. Need to be going now. Unfortunately am not available until 18th July. I shall continue this from 19th onwards. Thanks.

ShivKC,

You have been repeatedly hounding me, twisting my words, getting personally dirty since quite some time. Since this is an open forum it is your right to butt in. However, i reserve the right to reply or not reply.

 

[happyhindu]

i stand by you sir. there was one person by name sh.***, who was not posting such language in tamil script, though not targeted towards smt.HH, but he addressed it as an analogy.. but HH took it as personal and *** *** exited the forum. and me too condemned for using such words in tamil script..

i wonder why HH is portraying that I used such words, which i would never use it my life. still i would give the benefit of doubt to HH, for she not being a tamilian of TB.. if HH challenges, i can put forth some time to dig out the archives of sh.***..

do what you want.

praveen warned you, over PM as well.

ah well, shivkc, you are far too well understood for me to fall for your talk...

To others,
If possible i may log in tomorrow, otherwise it will be the 19th. Thanks.

 

[DrBarani]

Have a nice vacation away from this forum, HH. We look forward to your return. Kindly remember all of us here revere your presence with varying degree of liberty taken to tussle with you, but all in good taste only, nothing intended to denigrate your presence. Kindly sleep well and have good times ahead. Best Wishes.