Let us familiarise ourselves with Rigveda

[vikrama]

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Dear Sri Sangom,
I am not going into the merit or demerit of either Swamiji's finding the concept of surrender in the vedas or your refutal thereof. This is a different matter connected with the the relationship of Vasista to Varuna.

You seem to rely on the puranas which, if I remember correct, you have said, are fictions. Sayana also relies on Puranas to say that Varuna was the father of Vasista.
I would like to know whether there is any internal evidence in the Rik Samhita itself to aver that Varuna was the father of the bard who composed the poem in question.

One does not find any father -son relationship in the verses. Besides there is the mention of friendship.(sakha). One does not speak of friendship between a father and a son.

So IMHO the conversation is not between a father and a son. All gods have been formally addressed as father. This does not mean that the god is the bard's biological father. This only shows that the gods take care of the worshipper just like a a father. But in this sukta, there is no such formality even.

 

[sangom]

You seem to rely on the puranas which, if I remember correct, you have said, are fictions. Sayana also relies on Puranas to say that Varuna was the father of Vasista.

Dear Shri Vikrama,

I don't rely on puranas. True, I hold them as fiction. In this case I just brought up the puranic account of the three births of vasishta to show that we do not know in which birth this rigvedic ocean voyage took place.

I would like to know whether there is any internal evidence in the Rik Samhita itself to aver that Varuna was the father of the bard who composed the poem in question.

I don't know.

One does not find any father -son relationship in the verses. Besides there is the mention of friendship.(sakha). One does not speak of friendship between a father and a son.

Right. The verses themselves admit only camaraderie.

So IMHO the conversation is not between a father and a son.

Yes.

All gods have been formally addressed as father.

I am not so sure whether all gods have been so addressed in the rigveda.

This does not mean that the god is the bard's biological father. This only shows that the gods take care of the worshipper just like a a father. But in this sukta, there is no such formality even.

Since I am not sure about whether all gods have been addressed as father, I am unable to give any reply.

 

[vikrama]

I am not so sure whether all gods have been so addressed in the rigveda.

Dear Sri Sangom,
AFAI know, Agni and Dhayus have been addressed as father.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri Sangom,
AFAI know, Agni and Dhayus have been addressed as father.

Dear Vikrama,

As I said I could not recall any rik. Even now I would like to know the rik/s where agni is called father. Not that I don't believe your word.

I presume when you say "Dhayus" you are referring to "dyou:". After receiving your confirmation I may have something to say lest it becomes unnecessary rambling once again.

 

[vikrama]

Dear Sri Sangom,
The first five of the following refer to Agni as father and the next four refer to dyau: as father, as I understood the translation by Griffith. I would like to know your interpretation.

1-31-10 Agni, thou art our Providence, our Father thou - we are thy brethren and thou art our spring of life. in thee, rich in good heroes, guard of high decrees, meet hundred, thousand treasures, O infallible!
1-31-14 Thou, Agni gainest for the loudly-praising priest the highest wealth, the object of a man's desire.
Thou art called Father, caring even for the weak, and wisest, to the simple one thou teachest lore.
5-4-2 Agni, Eternal Father, offering- bearer, fair to behold, far-reaching, far-refulgent,
From well-kept household fire beam food to feed us, and measure out to us abundant glory.
6-1-5 On earth the people magnify thee greatly, thee their celestial and terrestrial riches.
Thou, Helper, must be known as our Preserver, Father and Mother of mankind for ever.
10-7-3 Agni I deem my Kinsman and my Father, count him my Brother and my Friend for ever.
I honour as the face of lofty Agni in heaven the bright and holy light of Surya.
**********
10-45-8 Like gold to look on, far he shone refulgent, beaming imperishable life for glory,
Agni by vital powers became immortal when his prolific Father Dyaus begat him.
1-90-7 Sweet be the night and sweet the dawns, sweet the terrestrial atmosphere;
Sweet be our Father Heaven to us.
10-189-1. THIS spotted Bull hath come, and sat before the Mother in the east,
Advancing to his Father heaven.
1-89-4 May the Wind waft to us that pleasant medicine, may Earth our Mother give it, and our Father Heaven,
And the joy-giving stones that press the Soma's juice. Asvins, may ye, for whom our spirits long, hear this.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri Sangom,
The first five of the following refer to Agni as father and the next four refer to dyau: as father, as I understood the translation by Griffith. I would like to know your interpretation.

1-31-10 Agni, thou art our Providence, our Father thou - we are thy brethren and thou art our spring of life. in thee, rich in good heroes, guard of high decrees, meet hundred, thousand treasures, O infallible!
1-31-14 Thou, Agni gainest for the loudly-praising priest the highest wealth, the object of a man's desire.
Thou art called Father, caring even for the weak, and wisest, to the simple one thou teachest lore.
5-4-2 Agni, Eternal Father, offering- bearer, fair to behold, far-reaching, far-refulgent,
From well-kept household fire beam food to feed us, and measure out to us abundant glory.
6-1-5 On earth the people magnify thee greatly, thee their celestial and terrestrial riches.
Thou, Helper, must be known as our Preserver, Father and Mother of mankind for ever.
10-7-3 Agni I deem my Kinsman and my Father, count him my Brother and my Friend for ever.
I honour as the face of lofty Agni in heaven the bright and holy light of Surya.
**********
10-45-8 Like gold to look on, far he shone refulgent, beaming imperishable life for glory,
Agni by vital powers became immortal when his prolific Father Dyaus begat him.
1-90-7 Sweet be the night and sweet the dawns, sweet the terrestrial atmosphere;
Sweet be our Father Heaven to us.
10-189-1. THIS spotted Bull hath come, and sat before the Mother in the east,
Advancing to his Father heaven.
1-89-4 May the Wind waft to us that pleasant medicine, may Earth our Mother give it, and our Father Heaven,
And the joy-giving stones that press the Soma's juice. Asvins, may ye, for whom our spirits long, hear this.

Dear Shri Vikrama,

Thank you. I have read somewhere (don't remember now) that dyāvā-pṛthvī (sky & earth) were supposed to be like husband & wife from whom everything originated. Hence the "dyaus pitṛ" concept in the very early layers of Aryan beliefs which later became Djeus-pater and then Jupiter, in due course. Here there is an underlying husband-wife imagery and the appellation as father signifies this status also IMO.
1-31-10 The word pitā here is interpreted by Sayanacarya as pālakaḥ, protector. 1-31-14 also he translates the same way and adds "pitā pālaka ityabhijñairucyase" (pitā means pālaka thus knowledgeable people opine.)
In respect of 5-4-2 Sayana says —

अयम् हव्यवाड् अग्निः अजरो अजीर्णः सन् नः पिता भवतु इति शेषः । किम्च विभुर्व्याप्त विभावा दीप्तिमान् सुदृशीकः शोभनदर्शनो अस्मे अस्माकम् भवतु । अथ प्रत्यक्षवाद:।
ayam havyavāḍ agniḥ ajaro ajīrṇaḥ san naḥ pitā bhavatu iti śeṣaḥ | kimca vibhurvyāpta vibhāvā dīptimān sudṛśīkaḥ śobhanadarśano asme asmākam bhavatu | atha pratyakṣavāda:|

It looks to me that the pratyakṣavāda: is to be given more weightage and the use of the word "pitā" is, again, as provider of food, and not as if the bard looked upon agni as a father figure - not even to the extent dyou could be considered as the original father of "idam sarvam" IMHO.

I will look up the remaining instances and get back. In the meantime kindly let me know whether you found the above comments relevant.

 

[sangom]

ऋषिः - मधुछन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः ।

उपनस्सवनागहि सोमस्य सोमपा: पिब ।
गोदा इद्रेवतोमद: ॥ ऋ. वे. १-०४-०२

ṛṣiḥ - madhuchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ |

upanassavanāgahi somasya somapāḥ piba |
godā idrevatomadaḥ || ṛ. ve. 1-04-02

ருஷி ஃ - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஃ - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - இந்த்ரஃ |

உபனஸ்ஸவனாகஹி ஸோமஸ்ய ஸோமபாஃ பிப |
கோதா இத்ரேவதோ மதஃ || ரிக். வே. ௧-0௪-0௨

upa = near
ā gahi = come
somasya piba = drink soma
somapāh = he ! soma-drinker
naḥ = our
savanā = for the three savanas
godā id = cattle giving surely
revataḥ = rich, prosperous
madaḥ = pleasure, satisfaction

he ! soma-drinker, come near and drink soma in our three savanas. Rich and prosperous that you are, your satisfaction will surely give us cattle wealth.

ऋषिः - मधुछन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः ।

अथा तॆ अन्तमानाम् विद्याम सुमतीनाम् ।
मा नो अति ख्य आगहि ॥ ऋ. वे. १-०४-०३

ṛṣiḥ - madhuchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ |

athā te antamānām vidyāma sumatīnām |
mā no ati khya āgahi || ṛ. ve. 1-04-03

ருஷி ஃ - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஃ - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - இந்த்ரஃ |

அதா தே அந்தமானாம் வித்யாம ஸுமதீனாம் |
மா நோ அதி க்ய ஆகஹி || ரிக். வே. ௧-0௪-0௩

athā = after partaking soma
te - tava = your
antamānām - atiśayena samīpavartinām = specially close
sumatīnām = good intellects
vidyāma = may we know, realize
mā = do not
no ati khya = other than to us
āgahi = come
After consuming the soma, (kindly) may we know you (see you) from very near. Do not reveal yourself to others (except to us) and come to us.

Note :
Here we have not only the reverence for indra being expressed but also a desire to possess him as "the unique deity"of the bard's clan and no one else's.

ऋषिः - मधुछन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः ।

परेहि विग्रमस्तृतं इन्द्रं पृच्छा विपश्चितं ।
यस्ते सखिभ्य आ वरम् ॥ ऋ. वॆ. १-०४-०४

ṛṣiḥ - madhuchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ |

parehi vigramastṛtaṃ indraṃ pṛcchā vipaścitaṃ |
yaste sakhibhya ā varam || ṛ. ve. 1-04-04

ருஷி ஃ - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஃ - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - இந்த்ரஃ |

பரேஹி விக்ரம் அஸ்த்ருதம் இந்த்ரம் ப்ருச்சா விபஸ்சிதம் |
யஸ்தே ஸகிப்ய ஆ வரம் || ரிக் வே. ௧-0௪-0௪

yaste - yaḥ te (tava) = if your (here this is addressed by the hotṛ to the yajamāna)
sakhibhyaḥ = to the ṛtviks
varam - श्रॆष्ठं = best
indraṃ parehi (parā ihi) = go to indra
vipaścitaṃ (vipaḥ + citaṃ) = erudite, learned
vigram = of high intellect
astṛtaṃ = uninjured
pṛcchā = ask

Here the hotṛ priest (who invites the deities by reciting the ṛgveda hymns) tells the yajamāna, to go to indra, who gives the best of boons to the yajamāna and his ṛtviks (denotes the usually the four classes of priests viz., hotṛ, adhvaryu, brahman and udgātṛ) and ask him (indra), who is erudite, of high intellect and uninjured, whether the hotṛ priest had worshipped him (indra) properly.

Note :

1. The word ā before varam in the second line seems to have been not explained by Sayana.

2. This camaraderie and familiarity among the priests/bards and the devas seems to appear in other verses also.

 

[vikrama]

Thank you Sri Sangom,
A detailed article on father-mother concepts regarding gods will be welcome.

 

[zebra16]

Dear Shri Vikrama,

Thank you. I have read somewhere (don't remember now) that dyāvā-pṛthvī (sky & earth) were supposed to be like husband & wife from whom everything originated. Hence the "dyaus pitṛ" concept in the very early layers of Aryan beliefs which later became Djeus-pater and then Jupiter, in due course. Here there is an underlying husband-wife imagery and the appellation as father signifies this status also IMO.

Taittiriya Aranyaka 1.41 begining with "sahasravrudhiyam BhumiH........ "Jaayaa BhumiH pathirvyoma (.) miThunantha athuryaThuH

Regards,

narayan

 

[sangom]

ऋषिः – मधुछन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः – गायत्री । देवता – इन्द्रः ।
उत ब्रुवन्तु नो निदो निरन्यतश्चिदारत ।
दधाना इन्द्र इद्दुवः ॥ ऋ. वे. १-०४-०५
ṛṣiḥ – madhuchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ – gāyatrī | devatā – indraḥ |
uta bruvantu no nido niranyataścidārata |
dadhānā indra idduvaḥ || ṛ. ve. 1-04-05
(te) bruvantu = praise you
no = relating to us, the ṛtviks
nidaḥ = those who despise sacrifices
niḥ ārata = get out of this place (country)
uta = and
anyataścid = from other countries also
dadhānā indra idduvaḥ = (those) who praise indra and offer their services to him
Let our ṛtviks who are ever engaged in earnestly performing indra’s worship exclaim : Depart you revilers of yajñas, from this place and every other place (where indra is adored).
Note : —
The beginnings of a campaign against indra and the vedic sacrificial rituals appear to have been taking shape when this ṛk was written. We find a late manifestation of this anti-indra sentiment in śrīmadbhāgavata with Krishna stopping indra-puja, indra getting angry and bringing torrential rains and Krishna lifting the Govardhan mountain on his little finger thus protecting the dairy farmers.

 

[sangom]

ऋषिः - मधुछन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः ।

उत न स्सुभगान् अरिर्‌वोचेयुर्‌ दस्म कृष्टय: ।
स्यामेदिन्द्रस्य शर्मणि ॥ ऋ. वॆ. १-०४-०६

ṛṣiḥ - madhuchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ |

uta na ssubhagān arir–voceyur– dasma kṛṣṭaya: |
syāmedindrasya śarmaṇi || ṛ. ve. 1-04-06

naḥ = about us
subhagān = wealthy
voceyur = may say
dasma = one who destroys enemies (indra)
ariḥ = enemies
uta = also
kṛṣṭaya: = our friends
syāmed = may we abide ever
indrasya śarmaṇi = comfortable due to indra's favour

Destroyer of foes, let our enemies also say that we are
prosperous ; let men who are friendly (congratulate us). May we ever
abide in the felicity (derived from the favour) of Indra.

 

[rakhma]

Asyavameeya sooktam------Dear Sangom, thanks for giving the saayana bhashya on asyava

Dear Sangom,

The bhaashya on asyavameeya by saayana is just superficial and i have heard that there is a beautiful explaination in depth of the mantras in Madhwa philosophy-can you please get that if possible?
The wordings or phrases like shakamayam dhoomamaraadapashyam---, Pitaa duhitur garbhamadadaat----, Asyavaamasya palitustasya hotustasya bhrataa----all these will give some silly meanings superficially as it says father impregnated daughter-pitaa duhitur garbhamadadaat---As it is told TRAYO ARTHAA SARVAVEDESHU DASHAARTHA SARVA BHAARATE VISHNO SAHASRA NAMAAPI NIRANTARA SHATAARTHAKAM.
Even these phrases from asyavameeya has some inner wonderful meanings which cannot be understood just superficial sanskrit dictionary meanings.
Please throw some light on these if any one know

Thanks and regards

Dr Manjunath G
CONSULTANT AYURVEDIC PHYSICIAN AND TEACHING FACULTY S-VYASA UNIVERSITY JIGANI BANGALORE.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear manjunath,

welcome to the forum.

i am hoping, like you, that sangom would come back to the forum and continue his fabulous postings inthis thread.

to the best of my knowledge, i think, he has not posted for a few days, and has indicated his reluctance to do so.

i thought i will pen this, just so that you will not think sangom is ignoring you. hopefully he will return to the forum.

 

[zebra16]

I too was hoping that after some back channel diplomacy Sri Sangom would be resurrected into the forum with dignity. After Sri Nara's re-participation my hopes rose. But no luck so far. Hoping for the best.

Regards,

narayan

 

[kunjuppu]

i too miss sangom here. this is a very fine thread that he started and nurtured.

it may help if the owner or moderator approached him, and cleared the air.

this is purely my feeling. i have not consulted anyone on this. some members are just irreplaceable.