M.S. an interesting assessment

[renuka]

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That makes me think; if MS, from the devaraTiyal lineage could graduate to confirmed brahminic position of adulation, why can't any NB girl marrying a tabra boy attain the same level of brahminic acceptability?

Dear Sangom ji,

You have forgotten something here...this lineage has been been in service to Upper Caste men mainly Brahmins too (since the father of MS herself is a TB)...so over the generations this lineage has had a TB/Brahmin genetic pool and may be that's why she was able to adapt to TB lifestyle.

So going by that may be TB guys can consider marrying Nair women of Kerala cos the Namboodhiris has already done the ground work sowing the Kshetra with their DNA via Sambandham..after all it is the DNA that counts isn't it??

 

[Raji Ram]

Taste differs, Sangom Sir! M S amma had the best stage presence among the three top lady musicians (though you do not

accept her as one!). Each voice and gnAnam had its own standard. M LV amma had strong control over rhythm but used her

false voice in upper octaves; hence failed to impress after her middle age! DKP amma had a base voice but her pronunciation

was the BEST! The listeners had their own choice. The beauty of M S amma added points to her and even women folk were

adoring her. She had the strong support of her husband and reached heights to receive the Bharat Rathna award!

P.S: I am an admirer of Sri. Lalgudi J whereas my younger sister admires Sri. MSG! Taste differs even among siblings.

 

[Raji Ram]

Even now, brahmin men are addressed as 'sAmi' in villages. Hence people like to establish themselves as brahmins!

 

[Raji Ram]

When my cousin sister's son got married to a girl from Thailand, the sAsthrigaL made her a brahmin by making my cousin brother

adopt her as his daughter! We were teasing our cousin for getting a daughter of marriageable age over night, without spending a

penny!! Now her name in our family is Srividya. :thumb:

 

[Nara]

Taste differs, Sangom Sir! M S amma had the best stage presence among the three top lady musicians

Mrs. RR. I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to esoteric nuances of Carnatic music, or any other music for that matter. I love my Blues music and I just cannot get enough of Jimmy Hendrix, Freddie King, Albert King, Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, et al. I also love old and relatively new cinema music, starting from Bhagavathar, Chinnappa to LR Iswari, not including the usurper SPB (how dare he sideline my favorite TMS). I also love Carnatic music and the two singers I love most are MS and MDR, how much different these two can be? MS was certainly the Kuyil of India and her biographical history only makes her all the more admirable, with all these men in her life controlling her talent, all the while the men of her time having a free reign never having to answer for their deeds even while they were alive, let alone as MS having to answer decades after her own passing. Amma indeed, I agree with you, she is certainly a Amma figure.

And, MDR has taken me to ecstasies I never knew existed, not that I recognized any technical and/or theoretical excellency because I am a veritable கழுதை oblivious of the arcane கற்பூர வாசனை of theoretical Carnatic greatness. But MDR took me to these heights nevertheless, mind you, without the aid of any grassy products.

To me MS will always remain the epitome of musical genius, same as MDR -- but such an appreciation coming from likes of me is of no value as I am such an ignoramus when it comes to the finer points of arohonam, avarohanam, or whatever the roham is!!!

warm regards ...

 

[renuka]

When my cousin sister's son got married to a girl from Thailand, the sAsthrigaL made her a brahmin by making my cousin brother

adopt her as his daughter! We were teasing our cousin for getting a daughter of marriageable age over night, without spending a

penny!! Now her name in our family is Srividya. :thumb:

Dear RR ji,

By being "adopted" by a new family...do we inherit their family Karma too???

 

[renuka]

Mrs. RR. I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to esoteric nuances of Carnatic music, or any other music for that matter. I love my Blues music and I just cannot get enough of Jimmy Hendrix, Freddie King, Albert King, Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, et al. .

Dear Nara Ji,

Do you like Freddie Mercury?

 

[renuka]

P.S: I am an admirer of Sri. Lalgudi J whereas my younger sister admires Sri. MSG! Taste differs even among siblings.

Dear RR ji,

Not all of us are well informed on Carnatic music..I was wondering who is Sri MSG and had to Google Search.

When I saw this line I was thinking "why is RR ji talking about Mono Sodium Glutamate(MSG)??

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

I wrote Sri. M S G and guess 'Mono Sodium Glutamate' does not have the prefix 'Sri'! :becky:

OK! Sri. M. S. Gopalakrishnan was taught violin by his father, the late Professor Parur Sundaram Iyer, who was well-versed

in North Indian (Hindustani) and South Indian (Carnatic) systems of Indian classical music. He learnt both systems from his

father, with whom he gave his first performance at 8 years old. He has played the violin for over fifty years as a soloist and

accompanist, having accompanied Omkarnath Thakur and D. V. Paluskar, and has toured Australia, the US, the UK, the

Netherlands, South Africa, Malaysia, and Hong Kong.


M.S. Gopalakrishnan, aka MSG, (b.10 June 1931, Mylapore, Chennai, India) has been a recipient of the Padma Sri, Kalaimamani,

Sangeetha Kalanidhi and 1997 Sangeet Natak Akademi awards, and is commonly grouped with Lalgudi Jayaraman and

T.N.Krishnan as part of the violin-trinity of carnatic music. His daughter, Dr M. Narmadha, is also a violinist.

Here is a sample of his violin:

M S Gopalakrishnan - Raga Jana Ranjani

 

[Raji Ram]

.... By being "adopted" by a new family...do we inherit their family Karma too???

No no Renu! Our forum came to a conclusion that our own pitrus do not curse us.

So, I think we will not inherit the family karma, if we are adopted!

 

[Raji Ram]

..... And, MDR has taken me to ecstasies I never knew existed, ......... But MDR took me to these heights nevertheless, mind you, without the aid of any grassy products.......

Wow Prof Sir!

So you are entitled to occupy a front row VVIP seat in the Music Academy! :thumb:

 

[Raji Ram]

A live concert of Sri. M D R, for you Prof Sir:

SRI.M.D.RAMANATHAN- SRI.M.CHANDRASEKHARAN- SRI.PALAKKAD MANI IYER

Part 2

 

[mskmoorthy]

Before I proceed, I like all kinds of music and I like all musicians - I try to learn from every one. You may call me a man with no taste discrimination

Here is Palghat Mani Iyer's interview in 1978 published in Hindu by a music critic MNM - It is a long article
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ptsmani.txt

We (my parents and ancestors) used to live in a house, a couple of houses away from Sri Palghat Mani Iyer (I could hear him playing Mridangam from our house) - Sri MD Ramanathan graduated from the same college where my eldest brother got his Intermediate (and a whole lot of friends and relatives)

A couple of points he has made that is relevant in this discussion.


Somewhere near the beginning he said


Mani Iyer listed three artistes with outstanding voices: Ariyakudi RamanujaIyengar, Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar and M.S.Subbulakshmi. He had playedfor the two men singers. They had sung straight to the audience for years and knew the art of relating themselves to their listeners and establishinga rapport with them.
Towards the very end

In a passing reference to contemporary vocalists, Mani Iyer said M.D.Ramanathan had wasted his gift of a very rich voice by deliberately goingin for an extremely "thaggu" sruthi.

Of course Palghat Mani Iyer's main prediction seem not to be true (given at the beginning)


The outlook for classical carnatic vocal music is bleak with not a single artiste available who can be counted upon as a hopeful asset. In fact, vocalmusic may soon disappear from the concert scene if the present trend of musicians to sing in extremely low sruthis in complete disregard of ht needto acquire compelling virtues of tone and timbre continues.

 

[sangom]

Before I proceed, I like all kinds of music and I like all musicians - I try to learn from every one. You may call me a man with no taste discrimination

Here is Palghat Mani Iyer's interview in 1978 published in Hindu by a music critic MNM - It is a long article
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ptsmani.txt

We (my parents and ancestors) used to live in a house, a couple of houses away from Sri Palghat Mani Iyer (I could hear him playing Mridangam from our house) - Sri MD Ramanathan graduated from the same college where my eldest brother got his Intermediate (and a whole lot of friends and relatives)

A couple of points he has made that is relevant in this discussion.


Somewhere near the beginning he said


Mani Iyer listed three artistes with outstanding voices: Ariyakudi RamanujaIyengar, Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar and M.S.Subbulakshmi. He had playedfor the two men singers. They had sung straight to the audience for years and knew the art of relating themselves to their listeners and establishinga rapport with them.
Towards the very end

In a passing reference to contemporary vocalists, Mani Iyer said M.D.Ramanathan had wasted his gift of a very rich voice by deliberately goingin for an extremely "thaggu" sruthi.

Of course Palghat Mani Iyer's main prediction seem not to be true (given at the beginning)


The outlook for classical carnatic vocal music is bleak with not a single artiste available who can be counted upon as a hopeful asset. In fact, vocalmusic may soon disappear from the concert scene if the present trend of musicians to sing in extremely low sruthis in complete disregard of ht needto acquire compelling virtues of tone and timbre continues.

Music, like dress, is a matter of fashion and it changes over time. Very high pitch was held to be adorable in one era whereas a slightly lower sruthi is appreciated by a lot of people including people held to be experts.
Hence, there are no absolute maxims in such matters, I think.

Even within this nuclear group, while Smt. Renuka likes SRK, Smt. Raji dislikes or hates that person. Music and musicians are also like that in so far as audience is concerned.

We do create "bimbams" or idols as stated in the OP and then, once a persona has been hoisted on to the pedestal of a bimbam, some people do not like to even hear comments (even if true and provable in a court of law) making that bimbam personality as something earthy, with warts and all. That is where MS with her very downgraded Birth caste (but may be thru some "brAhmaNa beejam", as one very senior friend of mine often tells) could successfully avoid a tragic life like that of her elder sister and ensure reverence and adulation even from brahmin audience, is a matter worthy of psychological and/or sociological research. That according to me is the relevance of TJS George's book on MS.

 

[Nara]

...Do you like Freddie Mercury?

I have heard about him, but have not listened to his music.

 

[kunjuppu]

my favourite of freddie mercury...radio gaga

[video=youtube;0omja1ivpx0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0omja1ivpx0[/video]

 

[mskmoorthy]

1) Whenever I think of Barcelona, I think of this Freddie Mercury song

Freddie Mercury/Montserrat Caballé - Barcelona - La Nit Live - YouTube

2) I agree with the first paragraph in Sri Sangom Sir's post here http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/12915-m-s-interesting-assessment-4.html#post200208
I do not know enough information to understand paragraph 2 and it does not matter to the topic.
The first sentence in third paragraph
"We do create "bimbams" or idols as stated in the OP and then, once a persona has been hoisted on to the pedestal of a bimbam, some people do not like to even hear comments (even if true and provable in a court of law) making that bimbam personality as something earthy, with warts and all."
is too subjective (IMHO). Of course every one is entitled to his/her opinion. I never had this feeling (so if I apply Induction technique on the people I know (with mine as a base case) this sentence is false) I have my limitations in understanding/making generalizations.

Moorthy

 

[renuka]

I have heard about him, but have not listened to his music.

Dear Nara ji,

He is Indian born Parsi...lead singer for the group Queen.

This song is my favorite:


[video=youtube_share;bRdo7WXTVoM]http://youtu.be/bRdo7WXTVoM[/video]

 

[Nara]

Eat your heart out hoity-toity Carnatic music aficionados ......

Freddie King - YouTube

 

[Raji Ram]

May M S amma's soul rest in peace. ray2:

 

[kunjuppu]

May M S amma's soul rest in peace. ray2:

MS Amma is probably having a kutcheri jugal bandhi with Freddie Mercury, in her room, UP THERE ray2:

 

[kannanpadmanabhan]

Dear Kunjuppu,

I also tend to agree with much of what Shri Ramachandra Sarma has written. I have heard that MS' biological father was a pure-bred tabra jamindar-cum-vakil and it was this which propelled her to become as brahministic as possible. Her love affair with GNB is also somewhat well-known. But as you well know, our tabra community has several "holy cows" and one such holy cow is MS. I have also heard that Sadasivam's first wife was alive when he married MS and brought her home; is this true as per your knowledge?

Much help was given by no less a person than Chandrasekhara saraswathy of Kanchi mutt in projecting MS; so did Chengalipuram as also Chemmankudi who wanted to ascend the Carnatic Music empire of Chennai as its emperor. The rumour here in TVM is that he was instrumental in the decline of GNB's fortunes in the musical world and the latter took to Tantric ways, in order to safeguard himself from esoteric evils of certain kind.

All in all, Carnatic Music (CM) field was polluted from the very high brahminical standards of Chembai, Musiri, Ariyakudi, Tiger, Maharajapuram, Karaikkudi etc. And it is doubtful whether CM will ever again regain that lost glory of its own.

This is a point worth the attention of all tabras, I feel.

Indeed Sangom, there was a well-orchestrated process which was launched in the 1950's. There were different persons with different agendas.

For eg, i) MS and Sadasivam wanted their marriage to be accepted
ii) Semmangudi and others somehow wanted to distract Brahmin families from the unique charm of GNB's music
iii) Kanchi Acharya had already been insulted publicly by Kalki Krishnamurthy for his ultra-othodox views and the Mutt had to ensure Brahmins' loyalty,

The Acharya who had earlier refused to recognise the Sadasivam-MS marriage changed his views and publicly recognised their marriage by allowing them to do pada puja; Kalki Krishnamurthy had died and Kalki magazine started its weekly Arul Urai of the Acharya which continues till date, MS' music was hyped by Semmangudis and the like beyond what it deserved. Sadasivam was very clever in all this subtle brainwashing of Brahmins for the next few decades.

The above will certainly shock many readers who will accuse me of blasphemy and insanity perhaps, but the fact remains that there was a well-thought out campaign from the mid 1950's which influenced Brahmin families thinking on these matters since then