Muslims in India

[Nara]

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KB, once again you are missing the point and going off on a tangent. I am not asking you to go anywhere, and neither do I want separate rules. I was only pointing out the ridiculousness of the comparison you made.

Anyway, this personal stuff is getting tiresome. I want to debate the points. Many outrageous and strongly objectionable charges have been leveled against Muslims in general without any serious evidence. This is the issue here, not the ones KB seems to get animated about. Movies, personal tales, and bunch of web site links are not serious evidence. I will respond if such evidence is presented, I shall ignore all other frivolous posts.

 

[C RAVI]

The list of web sites posted is not evidence. For each such web site many more from the opposite side may be cited. p.s. none of links works anyway ...

Shri Nara,

If for each such web site many more from the opposite side may be cited, than why not to cite? Do you believe that me and Shri Haridasa wants to close the eyes from the facts and establish only what we understand?

No Sir, you got us wrong. Your challenge gives me a feel that, you are considering us as those who wants to win some way and not interested to bring the facts to surface.

If the links that I have posted in my post #46, doesn't work the way you want, if it is no way substantial to reflect "Jihadi's" Global network and various agenda, than wat else way you can prove that Islamic extremists does not exist "extensively" and have no impacts Globally?

 

[Yamaka]

To me the opening poster and its supporters are anti-Muslim zealots..

Without any reliable data to support their claim they are bashing Muslim community in India with MALICE.

Why?


Wait & watch.

 

[ShivKC]

its sad, our indian govt data are not profiled on religious/race/caste grounds, where as U.S govt had done a good job in racial profiling, further prove that 'blacks rank top' in the crime rate.

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

not to take a thumps up, and proclaim from roof top!.. they focused social engineering to set right the imbalance. after all, we are all homo sapiens, how can there be differences, be it opportunities in education/fed job or crimes.. balance is what best..

courts were bit lenient in sentencing blacks, eg OJ simpson trial.. americans voiced against 'capital punishment', cos majority on the death row were blacks. an imbalance indeed.

on my glance though google, its true, the crime rates/prison data it broadly indicates that muslims are on the worst side, though i cant provide here an instant supporting document. what haridasa/ravi claim is all true.

but, as an indian citizen, son of bharath matha, is it our responsibility to set right this imbalance in statistics?

 

[Yamaka]

Contraband Business and Money Transfer Activities (called Hundi) in India - An Observation.

There was some reference to the above activities done by Muslims in India in places like Keezhakkarai.

If one gets deep into the subject, it will reveal that Muslims are not the real Bosses; they are low level "runners" or low level managers.

Since I know Keezha very well, and I have been to Keezha many times, I can tell you with some authenticity.

Many villagers in Ramanad Dist go to Malaysia, Sing'pore and Middle East for a living.. many are Muslims, Hindu Chettiars and others. Most of these people are in small or very small businesses, retailers. These businessmen try to find places where they can make "good profits". A few of them bring goods from other countries and sell in India. Such activities are dubbed as "contraband businesses".

As I said before, some of the Chettiars are also involved in this business. I once asked my room mate in Madurai College one Mr. Ramanathan of Karaikudi, a relative of Allagapa Chettiar and AV Meiyyapa Chettiar. This is what he said to me, "Well, like Patels and other Gujaratis, Shahs, Reddis, we are also astute business people. We serve the people by selling them what they need, and we make a living.. what's legal and what's illegal no body knows... only when it is tested in the trial court one would know for sure....therefore, I reject the notions that we are involved is "Contraband Business"...

As I wrote earlier, Chettiars are big bosses for whom some Muslims in TN work as low level workers.

"Hundial" is transfer of money thru Non-Bank channels... these business people sell goods in India and accumulate Rupees. They need to convert it to Malaysian / S'pore dollars thru these "Hundials"

One Indian doctor (a Reddy) approached me in Houston and said, "Doc, I will give you better rate, send home money thru me"... I declined because you need to totally believe this Reddy and I know it is illegal.

You see, a few people in many different sub-caste or groups of Hindus are involved in this "objectionable businesses".

Then, why to single out Muslims and bash them here? Unless you have an anti-Muslim attitude and agenda!

Very sad.

More later.

 

[Yamaka]

I am afraid you have either got me wrong or you are just exhibiting the traits we have seen with the “reformers” in this forum – just posing questions. My point has been correctly understood by Wrongan. I am not saying all Muslims are criminals. But there is a big number of Muslims in criminal activities. That number is disproportionate to the size of their population. In other words, I am looking at how many Muslims are involved per 1000 of criminals. I am not looking at out of 1000 Muslims how many are involved in crime. So, my POV is crime and not religion.

Why should you “want to” believe that I am not a Hindu “Supremacist”? Why don’t you just believe it? You may like to see my poem in the thread “என்னுடைய தமிழ்க் கவிதைகள்“where I have written a poem on religious fanaticism. It goes like this:

மதங்களின் பெயரால்
ஏனிங்கே போராட்டம்?
வீணான ஆர்ப்பாட்டம்?
--------
------

ஆதாம் ஏவாள் எந்த மதம்?
அனைவரும் இங்கே அந்த மதம்.

I go by Tagore’s words:
“….Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls…”


Remember, my thread is not AGAINST Muslims. It is ABOUT Muslims.

So far in this Thread you have talked AGAINST Muslims...show me one sentence you have PRAISED them!

You talk and walk like an Anti-Muslim zealot and a Supremacist ...then claim "I am not a Hindu Supremacist".

What a joke!

 

[C RAVI]

This is what Shri Haridasa has said, in his OP..

I am not trying to be a Hindu fundamentalist nor anti-Islam. ”.

Even if we look at our neighbourhood Muslims, they are friendly and we mix with each other very well. I have personal experience in this regard.

This is Shri Yamaka's clear observations -

So far in this Thread you have talked AGAINST Muslims...show me one sentence you have PRAISED them!

You talk and walk like an Anti-Muslim zealot and a Supremacist ...then claim "I am not a Hindu Supremacist".

What a joke!

I would request Professor Nara to evaluate the above two statements and make things clear to avoid further unrest here between members.


It was just the subject that Shri Haridasa has attempted to project here. Himself, myslef and any other member may be or may not be wrong in projecting the issues. We can discuss on the subect and see whats the ground reality. But keep on accusing a member the way Shri Yamaka has stated in his post #56 is not at all in good taste, IMHO.

Including the one Shri Yamaka has stated in his post #53 - "To me the opening poster and its supporters are anti-Muslim zealots. "

 

[Yamaka]

This is what Shri Haridasa has said, in his OP..




This is Shri Yamaka's clear observations -




I would request Professor Nara to evaluate the above two statements and make things clear to avoid further unrest here between members.


It was just the subject that Shri Haridasa has attempted to project here. Himself, myslef and any other member may be or may not be wrong in projecting the issues. We can discuss on the subect and see whats the ground reality. But keep on accusing a member the way Shri Yamaka has stated in his post #56 is not at all in good taste, IMHO.

Including the one Shri Yamaka has stated in his post #53 - "To me the opening poster and its supporters are anti-Muslim zealots. "

I am reminded of a known arsonist claiming "Oh, many times I have walked w/o matches and kerosene bottle...then why don't you accept me as a normal guy"!!

It does NOT cut it...

Show me a reliable data that Muslims commit more crimes than any other community in India, which is the CORE assumption and allegation here.

Which I say is totally FALSE.

More later.

 

[Yamaka]

Anti-Muslim Agenda and the BJP Supporters - A Commentary.

Right now there is so much of unease between Muslims and Hindus in India is because of the Anti-Muslim Agenda of the BJP and what they did in Babri Masjid...

For nearly 400 years, Muslims and Hindus were using the Babri grounds for their worship with minimal discomfort: the outer area was used by Hindus and the inner hall was used by Muslims till someone sneaked a Ram idol to the middle of the inner hall in 1947 illegally.

Then the virulent Hindu Supremacists of the BJP came: their anti-Muslim rhetoric took hold and the anarchists demolished the National Monument thus starting the cycle of violence in North India...

The same people are now in the guise of "we need to talk about why Muslims commit more crimes" are throwing kerosene fire bombs here...

Watch out.... Praveen.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Show me a reliable data that Muslims commit more crimes than any other community in India, which is the CORE assumption and allegation here.

I have clarified more than once - I am not saying Muslims commit more crimes. My point is the involvement of Muslims in crime is disproportionate to their population size. I can not believe that our "learned", "modern", "practical" member can not understand it. So, it could only be that he refuses to understand it. And then chooses to call me a zealot. IDC - I Don't Care. I don't have to prove my secularism to everyone.


Ravi, whatever you try to state or prove, it would be disregarded by this group. As Renu has mentioned in an earlier post, this group would never allow any meaningful discussion. They would paint everything with the same brush - Supermacism. They just got a new colour in this thread - zealot. They would resort to personal attacks and yet shamelessly claim that they never do personal attacks. One fears one's conscience if one fears God. If one doesn't believe in God, does he/she care for your conscience? Here is the song from the movie "Thyaagam":

நல்லவர்க்கெல்லாம் சாட்சிகள் ரெண்டு
ஒன்று மனசாட்சி
ஒன்று தெய்வத்தின் சாட்சியம்மா.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Conversation in a restaurant:

Mr.A: My mother used to cook very well. I wonder why the taste in this restaurant is not as good as her food. Do you perhaps have an idea since you would have also had your mom's food and you also eat here?

Mr.B: Wait, wait. How do you know that the person you are referring to is indeed your mother?

Mr.A: Come on, my point is not about mother; it is about the food

Mr.B: Don't make false allegations against a reputed restaurant. This restaurant is actually owned by a woman and it could be the person you claim to be your mother.

Mr.A: I am not making allegations. It is a fact that the food here does not taste like that of my mother

Mr.B: Prove me that you were born to the lady whom you refer to as your mom. How sure you are that she is not your aunt?

Mr.A: Hello… it is common knowledge. Everyone gets introduced to only one woman as his/her mother and I know her to be my mom from my childhood.

Mr.B: It is objectionable. The probabilities for a female relationship are many – mother, aunt, sister, grandma, daughter, etc. You have the “ill-intention” to just call this woman your mother when the probabilities are so many.

Mr.A: But my point is not whether the woman is my mom. It is about the food I used to get from her.

Mr.B: Once again, just because you attribute your childhood to her, she does not become your mother. It is sheer nonsense.

Mr.A: Oh my God. I am talking to you for more than an hour and yet you do not even seem to have understood my POV.

Mr.B: This is superiority complex. You practice yoga dharma and so you think you know about food too.

Mr.A: Yoga? Where does my yoga come in here?

Mr.B: You guys have this habit of calling a woman your mother. Show me evidence. You cannot say what you said. I see your malice.

Mr.A (to himself): I really wonder how this person can go in circles and yet accuse me for what I said or what I did not say?

 

[Nara]

... My point is the involvement of Muslims in crime is disproportionate to their population size. I can not believe that our "learned", "modern", "practical" member can not understand it.

Give me some evidence about this point, then I will try to understand it. Till now, all you have done is provide this your point and expect that it be understood.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Complete list of terrorist organizations world wide


Terrorism related subjects in this web site

Hamas terrorist's blood oath to kill anyone that disagrees with themJihad in America. Terrorists organizations operating in America
Islamic terrorists exploit children
Teaching hatred to their children. Future suicide bombers
Suicide Bombers statistics. Female suicide bombersIslamic terrorists intentionally target childrenIslamic terrorist's murders world wideThe Desire of Islam; "Destroy Israel"Israel's Victims of Terrorism List

I didn't realize in my previous post with the above link, that the sub links pasted below the main URL doesn't work here. So, I have pasted those sub links (as texts) just to list the topics/links covered under the link I have provided.

 

[amala]

There are lies, damned lies and statistics!. Just sayin ....

 

[Yamaka]

"My point is the involvement of Muslims in crime is disproportionate to their population size."- post 60

Show us the data... this "point" or "feeling" is bogus... perpetrated with MALICE in heart.

This is the Genesis of Bias / Prejudice which leads to pogroms in India.

Ask BJP and the Modis of India!

 

[Yamaka]

Complete list of terrorist organizations world wide


Terrorism related subjects in this web site

Hamas terrorist's blood oath to kill anyone that disagrees with themJihad in America. Terrorists organizations operating in America
Islamic terrorists exploit children
Teaching hatred to their children. Future suicide bombers
Suicide Bombers statistics. Female suicide bombersIslamic terrorists intentionally target childrenIslamic terrorist's murders world wideThe Desire of Islam; "Destroy Israel"Israel's Victims of Terrorism List

I didn't realize in my previous post with the above link, that the sub links pasted below the main URL doesn't work here. So, I have pasted those sub links (as texts) just to list the topics/links covered under the link I have provided.

Ravi:

Are you claiming that this is the data that you and your ilk HAVE to support ""My point is the involvement of Muslims in crime is disproportionate to their population size (In INDIA)."- post 60?

Here is the Genesis of Pogroms!

ps. These sites may give some evidence to my original point elsewhere that Religions & Gods create CONFLICTS and MAYHEM in the world. This is a different matter.

Talking about Muslims in a negative light will generate enormous enmity between Muslims and Hindus in India.... a possible genesis of hatred is what you are witnessing LIVE here!

 

[Nara]

Here is an example of how to provide some solid evidence. The following statistics is summarized from the FBI Official web site here. Way at the bottom of this page they have a list of terrorist attacks that occurred in the U.S. between 1980 to 2005. This list also identifies who carried out these attacks. I did a little analysis of this data and here is a summary.

Percentage of attacks carried out by various groups:
[TABLE="width: 186"]
[TR]
[TD]Latino[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Leftist groups[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jewish[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Islamic extremists[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Communists[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Assorted groups[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Of course, one's gut feeling trumps solid data -- the wise people here say all Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims -- and rest keep quiet or offer Likes.

Those who assert they are only talking of ground reality, please produce some solid data like this, otherwise, all that is exhorted here can only be understood as bigoted hatred.

 

[Govinda]

"My point is the involvement of Muslims in crime is disproportionate to their population size."- post 60

Show us the data... this "point" or "feeling" is bogus... perpetrated with MALICE in heart.

This is the Genesis of Bias / Prejudice which leads to pogroms in India.

Ask BJP and the Modis of India!

1. US : The bottom line is that the % of American Muslims inprison is alsmost certainly higher than it is in the general population- in 2005
U.S. prisons becoming Islam battleground-(% of Muslims in US prisons higher than general population)

2. The disproportionate muslim population in Indian Prison: -Sachar commitee
Too many Muslims in prison, Sachar edits this out - Indian Express

3. There is also another view to their crimes :
India: Why Are So Many Muslims in Prison? :: Faith Freedom International :: Only Truth can set us free!

 

[Yamaka]

"2. The disproportionate muslim population in Indian Prison: -Sachar commitee
Too many Muslims in prison, Sachar edits this out - Indian Express"

This articles ends with this

"Deletion of this data.......... reinforces stereotypes and prejudices".

The data was not in Sachar Committee Report.

Because, the data is suspect and/or the data means Muslims are prosecuted and incarcerated MORE than criminals of Hindus and other communities... etc. etc.

This is no way any data to claim "My point is the involvement of Muslims in crime is disproportionate to their population size (in India)."- post 60"​

 

[Govinda]

"2. The disproportionate muslim population in Indian Prison: -Sachar commitee
Too many Muslims in prison, Sachar edits this out - Indian Express"

This articles ends with this

"Deletion of this data.......... reinforces stereotypes and prejudices".

The data was not in Sachar Committee Report.

​

Didn't you read the last para of that Sachar Commitee report:

The deleted data showed that when it came to Muslims in the prison population, Maharashtra, Gujarat and Kerala are the most disproportionate.• In Maharashtra, the percentage of Muslim jail inmates in all categories is way above their share in the population Muslim share in population is 10.6%, share in the total prison inmates is 32.4%.• When it comes to those in prison for less than a year, Muslims contribute 40.6% of all prisoners in Maharashtra.
****************************
You have the more detailed view of that Reprot:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/op-ed/s...vered-backwardness-of-india-s-muslims-part-5/

3. There is also another view to their crimes :
India: Why Are So Many Muslims in Prison? :: Faith Freedom International :: Only Truth can set us free!

Don't just jump ahead, before I complete my post....


Plus, the owner of Faith Freedom http://www.faithfreedom.org/ is an ex-muslim.

You guys simply consider yourselves as the sole guardians/dig-phalakAs of humanity and peace. Don't be arrogant, by thinking you are the well-wishers of humanity!! All nice people ar so, even the author of this thread, just wanted to find out the reasons/causes for such crimes.

 

[Govinda]

Percentage of attacks carried out by various groups:
[TABLE="width: 186"]
[TR]
[TD]Latino[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Leftist groups[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jewish[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Islamic extremists[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Communists[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Assorted groups[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Of course, one's gut feeling trumps solid data -- the wise people here say all Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims -- and rest keep quiet or offer Likes.

I think, you gave a sample for data evidence.

That data was from 1980 to 2005. Plus, the Latinos were the neighbours of USA, and the chances of immigration of other ethnicity like Indians, hindus, muslims during those periods, were very low. Plus, the mexicans were known for drug cartels, and the major perpetators then!

But for 2005 data in US, I have given the link and would reproduce here.

1. US : The bottom line is that the % of American Muslims inprison is alsmost certainly higher than it is in the general population- in 2005
U.S. prisons becoming Islam battleground-(% of Muslims in US prisons higher than general population)

Just because of the data or our bloddy history under Mughals, or genocides in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Mayasia etc, we are not going to view them differently. As per the original intent of this thread, I would like suggest some tips for them, to compete in the modern world.

We, most hindus give importance to knowledge and education, as also promoted by our Hindu religion. Wheareas, the islamic ideology of conversion, and psychological concepts of Kafir, jihad etc and the promotion of hijabs, preference of madrAsAs over western education, keep them away from getting better opportunities. The governemnt (Congress) tactics of Muslim Appeasement for Votes, only give them Haj/Mecca subsidies, have not brought any Muslim empowerment in the lines of education or jobs. Only their religious leaders should come forward to promote education and societal values. The government has sunk in corruption. We public, should help our own fraternity, of any faith, plus, we have to stand as role models for values.

 

[Yamaka]

"even the author of this thread, just wanted to find out the reasons/causes for such crimes."- post 70

He never cited any report, any data WHEN he wrote this OP... even now he has no clue about Sachar Report and what it means... and why they deleted the data from the final submission.

That's the point now.

What was the real "intent" of the OP when he did not have any data to support his "assertion" or "the point"?

 

[Nara]

Let us now look at the Europol's 2010 report, can be downloaded here.

A summary:
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 322"]
[TR]
[TD]Carried out by[/TD]
[TD]Attacks[/TD]
[TD]Arrests[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Islamic[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]268[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Separatist[/TD]
[TD]160[/TD]
[TD]349[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Left-wing[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD]208[/TD]
[TD]651[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]% Islamic[/TD]
[TD]1.4%[/TD]
[TD]41.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

1.4% of the attacks, but 41% of arrests, here is a clue why Muslims are incarcerated in lopsided proportions.

Few related points to note:
Incarceration rate is directly linked to socioeconomic conditions. In the U.S., the prison population is disproportionately African-American (AA). This does not mean the AA are naturally inclined to criminality, though, I must admit, there are a lot of bigoted people who think exactly that, they see all blacks as criminals unless proved otherwise, very similar to the sentiments expressed here by some with respect to Muslims.

Incarceration rate is more a barometer of how a society treats its disadvantaged minorities than any natural criminal tendency on the part of the minorities.

The Roma of Europe are routinely seen as criminals. Recently the French government deported a lot of Roma population based on an extreme right-wing fear mongering. Painting Muslims as criminals has the same ring of bigotry. BTW, to see a nice portrayal of Roma in France consider the movie Chocolat.

Faithfreedom.org is a nice web site where the hypocrisy of Islamic fundamentalism is exposed, I like that. But, they also go overboard with their rhetoric. I will take this web site with a big pinch of salt.

I Like Sina's atheism and his logical rebuttal of Islamic nonsense, but there are others in his site who paint all Muslims with a broad brush, that is just not acceptable. In other words, criticize some of the stupid stuff that goes on in the name of Islam, I will join you -- alas many here won't join me when I criticize all the stupid stuff that goes on in the name of glorious Sanatana Darma -- but don't blame all Muslims for the violence of a miniscule portion of their umma. Those who want to take issue with umma, let me point out there is a similar concept among the SVs who belong to the glorious Sanatana Darma.

Cheers!

 

[Govinda]

What was the real "intent" of the OP when he did not have any data to support his "assertion" or "the point"?

He had genuine Q's. Why do we need data when we have 'closer' estimates through perception [in real life]?

Plus, he was presenting his estimates from the news.

1.4% of the attacks, but 41% of arrests, here is a clue why Muslims are incarcerated in lopsided proportions.

Even in the Sachar report, the Under-Trial/Convicted rates in case of muslims, on an avg. were 19%/22%, which means a fair job by police or witnesses, without pre-judices.

 

[Yamaka]

Ref post 74:

1. W/o reading a Report or Data on the given matter, how did the OP come to "that perception in real life"?

Is it some kind of vague bias or prejudice already deeply hidden in him?

2. There is a very glaring error in post #74 (second part) attributed to me.. Correct it..