Need of the hour for Tamil Brahmins is to increase their population

[RVR]

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We have to be united and help poor & downtrodden sections of our community so that they can come up in life. I am sure we have full agreement on this.

Lot of inter-caste marriages are happening now a days. My question is `are we going to accept the couple to our fold or not?'

There are lot of people belonging to other communities who are already living or want to live brahmin way of life. Why not we welcome them to our fold?

The answer to the above two questions is the need of the hour.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

To the next question whether wisdom is passed on through inheritance, to a great extent 'yes, it is'.

But, through genetic mutation, say after 3 generations, better or worse situation may result in. I noticed one surprising thing. Even the staunch rebels' children possess just opposite attributes on many issues, thus differing from their biological parents vastly.

Sir,

i am completely different from my own parents.

it is possible that it may be so because i started getting to know my parents only after i got married and they retired.

most of the stuff that gets created and destroyed inside my head (thoughts) happen to reflect that of my grandmother's, since i was raised by her. (probably that's the reason i turned out to be more traditional than my dad).

i also know of atleast a handful of children who are completely different from their parents...one need not wait for 3 generations.

also, personally i do not believe in the inheritance of wisdom, and further on, i do not believe it to be associated with genes.

regards.

 

[vijisesh]

Fascinating Genetic Effect !

Believe it or not , Genes does wonders !
Don't we find differences in the thought process , interests and creative ideas different in children who have been brought up in similar environments , ( sort of through-bred , with all the nurturing essentials prescribed by the professional parenting guides !)

Most of us have a feeling that Creativeness , the Zest and the bubbling enthusiasm in them to enjoy the Blessings of GOD in Life and each activity , they learn to do , each moment of their steps in the ladder of life , comes by virtue of what comes through the educational system or from the nurturing given by the kith and kin.
That may not be true ! Some children are in born with the right kind of spirits to create a sort of sparkling circles wherever they are in , bring into the worlds the attraction and induce others to enjoy the goodness in life and are the right kind of people who have ways and means to keep away from the boredom and do something different !
call it in-born wisdom , vasana whichever way you may like ! , but the source is either from genetics of our ancestors or inherited from the previous janma !

Dear Viji Sesh,

Looks like wisdom is passed on thru generations bcoz of a nurturing / family environment, but not sure how wisdom is passed on thru genetics..

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Believe it or not , Genes does wonders !
Don't we find differences in the thought process , interests and creative ideas different in children who have been brought up in similar environments , ( sort of through-bred , with all the nurturing essentials prescribed by the professional parenting guides !)

Most of us have a feeling that Creativeness , the Zest and the bubbling enthusiasm in them to enjoy the Blessings of GOD in Life and each activity , they learn to do , each moment of their steps in the ladder of life , comes by virtue of what comes through the educational system or from the nurturing given by the kith and kin.
That may not be true ! Some children are in born with the right kind of spirits to create a sort of sparkling circles wherever they are in , bring into the worlds the attraction and induce others to enjoy the goodness in life and are the right kind of people who have ways and means to keep away from the boredom and do something different !
call it in-born wisdom , vasana whichever way you may like ! , but the source is either from genetics of our ancestors or inherited from the previous janma !

Thanks for the post Viji Sesh.

If one goes by behavorial genetics, then certain tendencies are familial and inherited. However, this goes into the pathogenic mechanisms and molecular basis of a disease. Also, mutated genes are not found to act independently, and there is an entire process involved in bringing on a particular disease state or trigerring off its onset.

When it comes to things like intelligence, it is debatable whether environment plays a role in it or not. Nutrition certainly is found to play a key role. Infact, one study researched neural tube defects in embryos and found that folic acid drastically cut the risk of what would otherwise have been a genetic defect simply by altering certain things. In the case of phenylketonuria causing retardation, an enzyme deficiency was found to be cause and a particular diet was found to cut the impact. These are just 2 examples to show that diet does play a keyrole in brain function. And ofcourse, a wholesome diet need not be (and usually is not) a veggie diet alone (this again is a debatable topic).

While one child might have spatial intelligence with a latent talent as an artist, such as a painter or an airplane designer in him, an other child might have a hidden sports intelligence in him. How the family and/or the environment brings it out, is what the nurturing is all about. Which is why i agree with the idea of cultural capital as mentioned in this hyperlink: An interview with social scientist P Radhakrishnan: Rediff.com News

In comparison with caste / occupation, the family atmosphere of a dalit will naturally not be as nurturing as that of a family in which education has always been given importance. Simply because the focus of the dalit family is to make ends meet. That does not in any way mean that a dalit has no in-born wisdom or intelligence. What really plays a key role is opportunities. Give a dalit child the same opportunities as a brahmin child...instead of making him labour away in the fields, teach him, and see how his offspring is after 10 generations...

If you wish to try, you can try the reverse also. Lets say a brahmin does not teach his child to read or write, and instead sends his children to work in the fields, then his offspring, a few generations later too will end up on the same level as that of a dalit's - meaning, lost in academic skills, finding it difficult to 'culturize' themselves, finding it difficult to start reading or to assimilate information, etc...And after the first few generations has struggled with it, the later generations wud end up with a comfort zone and provide a similar nurturing environment for their children.

Which is why this point from the rediff article on Dr.RV sums it up beautifully:
"Universally, intelligence is distributed across the entire society. But opportunities are not".
[i do not believe the distribution of intelligence is dependent on religion or caste]

All this talk is about intelligence alone. And the fact that certain proclivities are inherited. When it comes to something like wisdom, no sir, i don't think genetics has anything to do with it. There is a buddhist temple near my house and a whole bunch of monks there are illiterate, come from poverty ridden labour class families of china, some were not considered intelligent or wise in their growing up years, some were school dropouts, some ran away from home (obviously did not have 'wise' parents), etc....but what i find common amongst all of them now (based on what they are in the present times) is that they are "wise"...

Regards.

 

[pannvalan]

There was one behavioural scientist John B. Watson who challenged all others in the field saying, "Give me any two siblings, preferably identical twins. One I will make a maker of law and the other breaker of it (law)".

He failed in his efforts to prove his hypothesis that only environment determines an individual's behaviour. All others mostly believed that behaviour is determined by one's parentage (heredity).

The controversy "Heredity vs. Environment" (or Nature vs. Nurture) was raging for quite sometime in the first half of 20th century.

By and large, all psychologists agree that I.Q., colour of the skin and pupils are determined by one's heredity and one's characteristics/traits are determined partly by heredity and partly by environment. Here also, the range of I.Q. only is predetermined at the time of one's birth. A total person is the resultant of so many factors -
heredity, environment (which includes the opportunities you had mentioned), attitudes, beliefs, values, social pressure/customs, cultural influences including language and literature, fine arts, music, religion etc.

In my opinion, individual preferences also matter the most.

"What a man can be, he will be" - Abraham H. Maslow.

 

[RVR]

Let us encourage people of other communities to live Brahminical way of life. Let them wear poonal, do sandhyavandhanam and other poojas. Let them follow Tamil Literature on Saiva/Vaishava texts to a great extent and sanskrit to a limited extent. Let them be totally vegetarian. Let us develop them as a separate Brahmin sect and start alliances with that sect so that gradually they are absorbed as Brahmins.

I feel there is nothing wrong in it. We require a reformer Guru to take the lead. I am sure substantial population will migrate to the new group. Let us not talk about caste but varna only. Once they live like brahmins, they will become brahmins in due course.

Why not we attempt the above.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Pannvalan ji,

The understanding of intelligence has seen an entire gamut of change with increased understanding on that subject in the past decade or so. If one were to go by 'surivability', then all humans who have survived to be the human race today originated from 'intelligent' humans who knew to survive the jungles ages ago...

These days the understanding is that there are certain genes, for example, like a variant of IGF2R, that play a key role in intelligence. However, these genes are also found in children of average abilities. And not everyone having the IGF2R variant was found to perform well to be considered intelligent. So its always a 50-50 thingy. Usually these studies are by observations within a sample size.

In India, no study has been conducted to find out the presence or absence of IQ linked genes in caste based structures.

There are also cases where mensa members work as bus drivers in some countries. There are also cases where a high IQ person has what is called a low EQ. High IQ does not always mean that a person has to be meet the standards of what a society might call as 'successful'.

Lets say someone dedicates his lifetime to being an environmentalist wanting to prevent soil erosion, wud that be a less intelligent thing to do, as compared to say, doing maths or research based science? I do not think indigenous knowledge such as traditional agricultural practices are a less intelligent thing to do. Found this writing interesting: Patagonia Environmentalism Essay: The Science of Wisdom - genetic engineering, agroecology

The general understanding is that education is given a lot of importance in brahmin families. Some families may not be giving that kind of importance to education. That, i don't think, means that they are less endowed with what is considered as IQ.

 

[pannvalan]

I broadly agree with you, on certain points. For the sake of better clarification, I add further.

1. The definition of I.Q. is ever changing. For instance, a nuclear scientist who has so
many achievements to his credit, if he doesn't know English, is considered a person
with poor I.Q. That is due to cultural differences. Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and
the French are best examples.

2. Within the homogenous popluation, I.Q. differs from one to another, because of
heredity, to a greater degree. Even the recent studies have confirmed this.

3. My intention is not to eulogise a particular community/class/group and belittle
another.

4. Semantic differences also cause many bright people failing in I.Q. tests designed by
behavioural scientists of the developed nations.

5. I personally don't believe in promoting one particular group or class at the cost of
other sections of the society. Therefore, people with lower I.Q. shall not be made
to suffer at the hands of intellectually superior people and denied opportunities to
grow further.

6. Apart from a person's intellect, his inter-personal relationships, social concerns
and responsibilities, stress management and problem solving abilties, patience and
endurance, decision making skills, planning, organising and executing to the
satisfaction of all and finally, learning to live successfully with mother Nature
will personify a total person.

But who has the time to study individuals on such a grand scale?

 

[vijisesh]

Dear happy Hindu ji ...

Appreciate your in-depth research and Citations referred in your msgs ,which i shall browse shortly.
But I can get the essence of what you write !
Happy hindu ji ....... Let me put it this way ! If only science could have explained everything , there would be " NO DEATH " and creation of LIFE at will !
Although our scientist have earnestly put in their dedicated efforts to find out and rationalise things in an apt logical way and tend to carry out their scientific reasoning behind the " WHy 's " of things , there are still many many things in this world where Uncertainty Prevails !
Human knowledge is limited , you may call certain characteristics of individuals as genetic dis-orders or a disease , for yet a few , it may ring a different tone , altogether .
You have also mentioned that a person from a cult with lower educational values has to meet the ends and so he may not be able to meet the nurturing requirements and thereby is unable to create a prodigy out of his child , for which a brahmin has an edge over ! This again is circumstancial.
I have seen from my experiences in life that besides anything else, the person who is illiterate been really effective in instigating confidence in his child , by teaching him ways and means to lead his life
with whatever simple occupations that he knows - farming / trading business / gold smithy etc.
. What i mean is a farmer's son atleast knows farming by the time he graduates along with his counterpart brahmin boy who has learn little , apart from the academics and the slokams !
Most of the brahmin boys are not street smart as he has not been exposed to such circumstances!
Also the highly learned person (brahmin), thanks to his knowledge and his logical sense CANNOT take things until he reasons out each and everything ! He gets confused and cannot follow rules or procedures without putting it to test !
He is impatient and as you can see most of the PHD's are lost completely in their own world !
And therefore , I hereby conclude ( as this discussion may not be within the course contents of this thread ) --> that wisdom is definitely inherited , just like otehr qualities like short temper , physical strengths / weaknesses etc .

 

[pannvalan]

I have seen people with strong theoretical background failing in real life situations. It shows the lack of adaptability on the part of the person concerned. Here heredity has no role to play and environment also has a very limited role.

Admission of one's own mistakes requires mustering necessary strength and courage.
But, past failures are a good teacher and one immensely benefits from them, if he is willing to learn the right kind of lessons from them, without throwing the blame on others.

Alright, we have drifted too far from the topic. I conclude my posting under this thread.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear happy Hindu ji ...

Appreciate your in-depth research and Citations referred in your msgs ,which i shall browse shortly.
But I can get the essence of what you write ( may be because of my birth as a Brahmin in this janma !) .
Happy hindu ji ....... Let me put it this way ! If only science could have explained everything , there would be " NO DEATH " and creation of LIFE at will !
Although our scientist have earnestly put in their dedicated efforts to find out and rationalise things in an apt logical way and tend to carry out their scientific reasoning behind the " WHy 's " of things , there are still many many things in this world where Uncertainty Prevails !
Human knowledge is limited , you may call certain characteristics of individuals as genetic dis-orders or a disease , for yet a few , it may ring a different tone , altogether .
You have also mentioned that a person from a cult with lower educational values has to meet the ends and so he may not be able to meet the nurturing requirements and thereby is unable to create a prodigy out of his child , for which a brahmin has an edge over ! This again is circumstancial.
I have seen from my experiences in life that a apart from anything else the person who is illiterate been really effective in firming his child , by teaching him ways and means to lead his life . What i mean is a farmer's son atleast knows farming by the time he graduates along with his counterpart brahmin boy who has learn little apart from the academics !!
Also the highly learned person , thanks to his knowledge and his logical sense CANNOT take things until he reasons out each and everything ! He gets confused and cannot follow rules or procedures without putting it to test !
He is impatient and as you can see most of the PHD's are lost completely in their own world !
And therefore , I hereby conclude ( as this discussion may not be in the course contents of this thread ) --> that wisdom is definitely inherited , just like otehr qualities like short temper , physical strengths / weaknesses etc .

Dear Viji Sesh,

Your approach is far different from mine

I agree with you that science cannot explain everything. However, when one claims something is inherited genetically, then it requires one to look up things from the wardrobe marked "genetics" since one wud get very little generalized info from the wardrobe marked "general" or insufficient / biased info from the wardrobe marked "religion, genetics and eugenics" (where ideas of heredity are influenced by religious views).

Therefore, from the standpoint of genetics mentioned my view that wisdom is not inherited; simply because 'wisdom' is a state of mind like intelligence and unlike physically measurable stuff like physical strength. It wud all depend on how you define 'wisdom' i suppose.

Also, no ma'am i don't think most PhDs are lost in their own world.

Regards.

 

[vijisesh]

Agreed HH Ji,

As i have limited knowledge in the field of DNA's , RNA's and stuff , I cannot comment on the multiple wardrobe analogy that you have put forth .
Truly the word Wisdom can be interpreted in so many different ways ...
I agree to your standpoint - you may now seat yourself and be comfortable !
Have a Happy Deepavali .........

 

[RVR]

To day I met casually three people belonging to Naidu, Mudaliar and Dalith community. During normal discussions, it came out that all the three have turned vegetarian completely. When I asked why, they just said they have turned more spiritual and hence turned vegetarian. The discussions went further and they said because many people have turned vegetarian, the vegetable prices are skyrocketing.

They all came out openly in support of Rahul Gandhi's initiative to revive the congress in Tamilnadu and criticised both the kazhagams vehemently.

Is there an undercurrent going on in Tamilnadu right now against both the Kazhagams?

Since I posted in these columns just few hours back - Why not convert other people to Brahminism, it is brewing in my mind - if a reformer like Bhagavath Ramanujar is available with us right now, we can increase the population of TBs in Tamilnadu to a great extent.

I earnestly feel, this move will bring lot of good will among all communities in Tamilnadu.

I request our honourable members to discuss the pros and cons openly in this forum

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

...
Since I posted in these columns just few hours back - Why not convert other people to Brahminism, it is brewing in my mind - if a reformer like Bhagavath Ramanujar is available with us right now, we can increase the population of TBs in Tamilnadu to a great extent.

I earnestly feel, this move will bring lot of good will among all communities in Tamilnadu.


I request our honourable members to discuss the pros and cons openly in this forum

All the best

venkat,

in my opinion there are no cons.

absolutely no cons.

long overdue, and probably the best thing that happened to hinduism for a very long time.

i am always dismayed, at so many posts here, quoting manusmriti or looking for solutions in manu, based on varna.

i have found the most fanatic adherents of those beliefs among the least erudite and least economically upscale among our group. there is something which, i think, makes these people feel inadequate 'brahmins' due to their supposed status in life.

i am not so sure if this is their own upbringing, or something to do with the societal values of brahmins re true brahminism lies with upward mobility, education & brahmana kaLai (whatever that means).

not sure why we deem success in life on such a narrow platform. it appears to me, more a setup for failure than anything else.

i think, the first step towards hindu unity, is to put manusmriti into the dungheap of history and seal it forever. manu's time has long past. it is only his ghosts of a thought that we are flagging about, that too, to our detriment. i think so anyway.

that, sir is a starting point to your stated wishes and goals re moving towards a casteless hindu society or converting the willing ones to the brahmin way of life.

this would not right any of the wrongs of the past, particularly towards the dalits. but this would ensure, i think, that no more crimes of humanity would be committed citing the supposed tenets of hinduism.

there is also another good aspect to it. such of us, who claim to be brahmin only by birth, who do not wear poonul or observe the stricture, are freed of our guilt by association with the traditionalists. we could then be proud of our brahmin heritage, and yet be fully practising proud hindus, without having to utter the denial of a poonu.

a poonul should be worth its weight in philosophy, and not a measure of what the parents can spend on an ostentatious ceremony.

maybe we will evolve, where a brahmin might be just another name for a priest, and it would be a title/honour achieved not by birth, but by training, and several levels of excellence .. starting with the basic amavasai tharpanam/navagraha homam, graduating to conducting weddings/funerals and ultimately, part of a society of scholars, who would interpret the vedas as per the relevance of the times.

i think, it is not the tradition bound erudite who are danger to our faith.

it is the half baked, socio political doctrinised fanatics who appeal to our fears and cloak their agenda under the guise of 'hinduism in danger'.

thank you.

ps.. i am most interested in what 'cons' come out of this discussion...

 

[sapthajihva]

Sri Sapthajihva Ji,

I have edited out an offensive expression. Please stay away from vulgarity. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

I seek an answer from Mr. Kunjuppu.

i am always dismayed, at so many posts here, quoting manusmriti or looking for solutions in manu, based on varna.

What is the reason for your dismay? Is it quoting from manusmiriti or the basis of varna? And why?

i have found the most fanatic adherents of those beliefs among the least erudite and least economically upscale among our group. there is something which, i think, makes these people feel inadequate 'brahmins' due to their supposed status in life.

Dont you think that it is a sweeping generalization based only on your experience? Have you empirical evidence to support your fantastic find?

i am not so sure if this is their own upbringing, or something to do with the societal values of brahmins re true brahminism lies with upward mobility, education & brahmana kaLai (whatever that means).

not sure why we deem success in life on such a narrow platform. it appears to me, more a setup for failure than anything else.

Not sure what you mean here; could you elaborate pls?

i think, the first step towards hindu unity, is to put manusmriti into the dungheap of history and seal it forever. manu's time has long past. it is only his ghosts of a thought that we are flagging about, that too, to our detriment. i think so anyway.

Can you rationally list down why manusmriti has to be put away? And I assume, of course, that you have digested the essence of manusmriti and having evaluated it unequivocally, made your grand declaration.

that, sir is a starting point to your stated wishes and goals re moving towards a casteless hindu society or converting the willing ones to the brahmin way of life.

Is it the hidden agenda of this forum to entice them under the banner tamilbrahmins, and then, to subvertly inject ideas of castelessness, edtd - KRS, to weaken the community? This kind of ambiguous brain-washing to reach the sub-conscious has been repeatedly happening in this forum. Are you the spokesperson for the brahmin community to decide what is good?

this would not right any of the wrongs of the past, particularly towards the dalits. but this would ensure, i think, that no more crimes of humanity would be committed citing the supposed tenets of hinduism.

This implies that caste/hinduism discriminates. How dumb can one get!!!

there is also another good aspect to it. such of us, who claim to be brahmin only by birth, who do not wear poonul or observe the stricture, are freed of our guilt by association with the traditionalists. we could then be proud of our brahmin heritage, and yet be fully practising proud hindus, without having to utter the denial of a poonu.

a poonul should be worth its weight in philosophy, and not a measure of what the parents can spend on an ostentatious ceremony.

Ahh... now I see. Under all those superflous words, comes the real intent. Poonul to be discarded - ie., one need not wear a poonul to be a brahmin, the gibber about the ceremony and expenses notwithstanding. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY MR. KUNJUPPU.

it is the half baked, socio political doctrinised fanatics who appeal to our fears and cloak their agenda under the guise of 'hinduism in danger'.

Look at yourself in the mirror.

Thanks,

 

[pbkhema]

In discussions in another forum I have argued that a Brahmin is not by birth alone.But a Brahmin is made.Just to cite the well known example of Visvamitra.
But in the present day the people at large particularly in T.N do not care for Brahmins/The situation is slightly better in the neighbouring states
We do not need quntity.What we need in UNITY

 

[kunjuppu]

sapthajiva,

thank you for your note.

first and foremost please let me clarify: there is no hidden agenda in this forum.

the aims of this forum are clearly published. i am only a moderator, trying to instill decorum and what i interpret as standards. that too has been debated, and i try to respond to queries to the best of my ability.

my post (#65) is printed in black regular font, and is my opinion as a member of the forum. moreover, it is in response to and support of venkat's post.

i have dual roles - member & moderator (where the font is bright red bolded).

if at all anything, you should rightly begin your comments with venkat's post #64 as my post is a response and corollary, to what venkat has written.

if you read through my post, it is my purview of ideas including my take on manu, in the context of venkat's observation re vegetarianism, and the possibility of a movement uniting castes based on ramanuja's teachings.

i am a fan of ramanjua and tamil vaishnavism. being an iyer by birth, does not preclude me from adhering to the inclusive view that ramanuja took on humanity in the context of hinduism.

i understand from the gist of your note, that you do not agree with what i say. which is ok, because if everyone in the forum had the same ideas, this would be a boring place.

i will try to give some answers provided, those are not an excuse to a start a 'hanuman vaal' posts of point & counter point.

i have consistently felt that manu's ideas on caste, women, dalits are among the worst in their attitudes of these groups.

one example: which was indeed practised by the peshwas about 4 centuries ago involved pouring lead into dalits' ears if he heard the vedas. there are lots more instances of abuse against dalits which i do not want to elaborate, as i feel i have done enough elaboration in all my posts.

i am entitled to have my opinion on manu. same as you have yours, probably justifying manu as among the greatest sages of all times. so be it, if it works for you. i prefer to see the darker results of manu's preachings especially in the context of today's world of egalitarianism and dignity and a sense of entitlement of absolute equality before God.

to the best of my flawed knowledge, manu's thoughts on these are quite different from what i wish to prescribe.

i agree that you may consider me dumb to believe that caste and casteism discriminates. i will not counter you on that, because we both have different views on castes.

from my perspective, i do not think you are dumb because your views are different from mine. to me, it is ok to differ.

i have read your views on castes in other posts, and i have not responded, because, there is very little in common between us on those issues.

re poonul, it is my personal take. it is exactly what i said... i see in today's world, all my nephews have poonul ceremony in their tweens. it is a source, i find, of celebration for one day. no more is said of or in the name of the poonul after that.

but you and your family may be different. you can elaborate on that if you want.

i think i have answered to a necessary and sufficient extent, to your parsed queries. i would only be repeating myself to pursue on this theme further.

perhaps, you could now address venkat's query re post #64, to which i was responding.

i quote venkat here for your added benefit,

'Since I posted in these columns just few hours back - Why not convert other people to Brahminism, it is brewing in my mind - if a reformer like Bhagavath Ramanujar is available with us right now, we can increase the population of TBs in Tamilnadu to a great extent.
I earnestly feel, this move will bring lot of good will among all communities in Tamilnadu.
I request our honourable members to discuss the pros and cons openly in this forum'

thank you.

 

[sapthajihva]

Mr kunjuppu,

If we were only to discuss things based on opinion, one cannot guarantee consistency, neither truth. It would only be wishy-washy. There has to be some logic in our discussion, for fear of making this a mere thinnai-pechu.

I too, am a fan of Shri Ramanujacharya's teachings, and his unparalleled love for humanity. If only, everyone were to raise to the level of devotion, he preached...

On Manu - Some prefer to say that the glass is half empty, and some others would say, half full. It is but a matter of perspective, isn't it.

I could not help wondering that every time a ritual or a custom or a tradition was discussed, some one HAD to raise a point about caste discrimination, casteless society, inter-caste marriages etc... I suppose it is the display of the 'erudite'... the 'in thing' today.

And, sadly, this is one factor which blinds us.... no sooner we start a group, out comes brahmin-discrimination theories, anti caste speeches and what not. Is it for this that we have gathered together and joined this forum? If this kind of meandering continues, perhaps, one would register in this forum only to listen/download songs. Oh yes, and perhaps to escape boredom, sometimes browse through some of the posts.

This, is my opinion only.

I do not wish to counter your points, for that would entail a lengthy discussion. And you have said that you dont prefer this thread to become a vaal... I mean, a Hanuman vaal... (perhaps Vaali's vaal would be ok?).

Regarding my thoughts about caste, as you may have noticed, I expected a logical counter, not an emotional one. If there is a malady, it has to be analysed logically and not emotionally. Opinions do not matter on this unless they are consistent and logical. I say no more on this.

I saw your post as a fit one to open up my views... no offence personally.

Thanks,

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you saptha. let me deal with the three new points of discussion that you have brought forth, as these i feel bring a whiff of fresh fragrance like the jasmine garland attached to the still wet washed hair of my beloved...

Mr kunjuppu,

If we were only to discuss things based on opinion, one cannot guarantee consistency, neither truth. It would only be wishy-washy. There has to be some logic in our discussion, for fear of making this a mere thinnai-pechu.
Thanks,

i accept inconsistency as a natural progression in life.

how else can i explain that today i am a better man than yesterday, due to some new stuff i learnt.

i would rather not hold on to erstwhile truths known to be false today, thanks to a relentless pursuit of knowledge.

what would have happened to einstein, if everyone had stuck to newtonian laws? sapth, we are constantly evolving, and i believe we are evolving for the better.

let us be inconsistently consistent in our pursuit of truth, humanity and above all brotherhood and sisterhood of man/woman.

I could not help wondering that every time a ritual or a custom or a tradition was discussed, some one HAD to raise a point about caste discrimination, casteless society, inter-caste marriages etc... I suppose it is the display of the 'erudite'... the 'in thing' today.

QUOTE]

i have been witnesses in my early age in north malabar to the worst indignities heaped on dalits. only that i did not know it was humiliations.

i was closer to past 50 before i fully understood the implied indgnites and horrors. i have also found, that preserving a 'noble silence' is one of not having to deal with the unsavoury past.

as a parent, do not wish to hide under the cloak of ignorance.

i feel i owe it to myself and my progeny, to tell them, as it was, and take my share of the blame, so that in turn, they, because of the knowledge, will be blameless.

caste is an integral part of today's hinduism.

personally, i believe, the obsoletion of caste will result, from grass roots practice ie at the bottom. through intercaste marriages mostly.

the older generations appear to cling on to it, as how else can i explain that over 99% of the matrimonial ads insist on same caste/subcaste/gothram/etc etc..

On Manu - Some prefer to say that the glass is half empty, and some others would say, half full. It is but a matter of perspective, isn't ite on this.
Thanks,

very soon, in all probability, casteism as it was/is inflicted on dalits, would be heard in the united nations court of justice, as a 'crime against humanity'.

manu's written laws and prescriptions are very clear in how and what the various castes are to be treated. i think every statement such as '“If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the Veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead ...' written by manu, and practised as law by the peshwas as late as 3 - 4 centuries ago, will have a world audience, and i wonder what type of logic to justify this will be presented.. believe me, there are tons of manu's laws which deal not only with dalits but also females and other shudras.

there are still germans whom i meet, believe that there was goodness in hitler. surprisingly, in russia, there is a neo stalinist revival movement.

i do not think in terminologies such as logic, rhetoric, consistency and such stuff. i try to keep it simple - i can recognize evil, i hope when i see it. and ensure i do my little mite to defeat it. my focus on manu is just that.

i am not sure if it will be the lot of the government of india, to go to a world body and justify manu smrithi. no matter who does it, it would be an interesting spectacle to folks like me, who fervently believe that it is in the best interests of the future of the hindu way of life, manu and his smrithis are quickly dumped into the dustbins of history.

what is sad, is that it would take much much longer to cleanse out the evil associated with manu, for the mind of man, while can produce a newton or gandhi, can also produce a hitler, stalin, timur or manu.

 

[kunjuppu]

saptha,

you have yet to give me a reply to my italicised blue excerpt of venkat posting which i quoted in # 68. i can understand if you wish not to.

but that is not the purpose of this post.

it got me thinking, as to what it would take to support manu.

even if you consider manu half full, that must be a difficult 'full' to argue for.

compared to that, the concept of absolute equality before God, casteless societies and such, are universal arguments which not only sound fair but also appeal to the basic decency of people.

contrast this to some of manu's laws:

re women - 'When a woman, proud of her relations [or abilities] deceives her husband ( with another man), then the king should [ensure that] she be torn apart by dogs in place much frequented by people"[Manu Smrti 8:371] "And the evil man should be burnt in a bed of red-hot iron"[Manu Smrti 8:371-2] '

- re chattel - A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions. [Manu VIII.416-417]

- re dalits - If the shudra intentionally listens for committing to memory the Veda, then his ears should be filled with (molten) lead

i agree that these are but selective quotes, and presents manu in a bad light.

there are probably thousands of his other laws, which may reek of wisdom and truth.

but, in the face of such blatant cruelty and injustice, encoded as laws, i think, anyone trying to justify residual goodnesses in manu, will have a credibility issue among other things.

after all, with hitler, it is not that he gave full employment to germans and provided 2 week paid vacation to all workers, is remembered. hitler, conveniently chose death, and escaped accountability for a few million deaths.

india, has been trying to push manu out of international agenda, claiming rightly so, the progress made in post independence india, as well as the avowed policy of affirmative action towards the socially underprivileged castes.

so, where does the 'half full' glass of manu comes, in a current social context?

saptha, if you happen to reverse the roles, and had been born a dalit, based on your current knowledge of manu, and based on the social ill treatment that i have described, would you in all honesty, support manu with the same enthusiasm and fervence that you now do.

thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

To day I met casually three people belonging to Naidu, Mudaliar and Dalith community. During normal discussions, it came out that all the three have turned vegetarian completely. When I asked why, they just said they have turned more spiritual and hence turned vegetarian. The discussions went further and they said because many people have turned vegetarian, the vegetable prices are skyrocketing.

They all came out openly in support of Rahul Gandhi's initiative to revive the congress in Tamilnadu and criticised both the kazhagams vehemently.

Is there an undercurrent going on in Tamilnadu right now against both the Kazhagams?

Since I posted in these columns just few hours back - Why not convert other people to Brahminism, it is brewing in my mind - if a reformer like Bhagavath Ramanujar is available with us right now, we can increase the population of TBs in Tamilnadu to a great extent.

I earnestly feel, this move will bring lot of good will among all communities in Tamilnadu.

I request our honourable members to discuss the pros and cons openly in this forum

All the best

There are sections of NBs who have been vegetarians for a long time (they dunno since when). I suspect it may be so because such people originally come from temple towns. When i queried abt it someone i know said 'aa devudu ni chuste yavarikaina alaga undalani anipistundi', meaning, if anyone sees that lord, they will feel like being like that (as vegetarians). Since they wud go to the temple everyday, they did not like to go tehre with non-veg in their bellies. So due to the influence of having lived near the vicinity of temples perhaps they bcame vegetarians (or so i think).

Dunno if there is an undercurrent against the kazhagams...methinks people generally these days cannot be bothered about votes based on topics like religion, instead people want solid development and better facilities...another reason is awareness (the diff being that there was no TV churning out non-stop news 30 yrs back). Also, ppl very well know that those who profess political-atheism are no atheists really (so they feel why shd we be fooled with such topics, give me better roads, water facilities, etc instead)..

As regards converting other ppl to brahmanism, i think there are already vedapatshalas that take in students irrespective of caste. With growing demand for priests in future, methinks the number of such schools may increase. So tehre is already a change happening. Even generally too, ppl are also curious to know more abt hinduism, and send their kids to classes teaching mantras, etc. Infuture, i don't think ppl will be really hung up on particularly wanting a brahmin as a priest. The future i think is really casteless..and it will come about on its own...with the path paved by growing industrialization, growing communication, growing awareness....

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Turning into vegetarianism

Happy Hindu ji,

The three people whom I referred in my posting use to take non-veg food and cook the same in their houses also. But suddenly turning to veg is a surprise to me. Particularly the Dalith friend turning into veg was a very big surprise.

As you said, people don't bother about any political party. But every body feels an alternative to both the Kazhagams are required. Nobody knows whether it will happen or not.

As you rightly said, there is shortage of priests in rural areas. Personally I feel there is no harm if other community people take up the jobs. I shall be happy if a reformer like Bagavath Ramanujar makes a sweeping change in the mindset of all.

All the best

 

[DURGADASAN]

I agree with happyhindu

There is really a need now for good preachers to those people in rural areas. They have good godfearing nature. They are bold at the same time authentic. They have faith on god much than us. But at the sametime, someone has to explain them about the hinduism. We should just shed our aacharams and go little beyond that and attract them also in this holy religion.

Let I pray god to turn this whole world like your name sir...

Pranams