nonbelieing horoscope

[Ramacchandran]

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Of late we are seeing persons who prefers to give their daughter and son to any one without seeing the horoscope and stars. One Senior in temple commented"It is money that matches" The non believer in horoscope is unfit to be a brahmin, he should give his daughter to Muslim/ Christian if he is wealthy.Who is a brahmin? Because of these brahmins the community is blamed by others."

Is non believing horoscope leads to non believer of God? Then how these people will conduct marriage In revolution mode? No Prohit, No fire etc?

Will these persons follow Hindu rituals and sacrifices?


At his death will he do Sratham etc?

Wishing you to share your views on this.

 

[renuka]

Of late we are seeing persons who prefers to give their daughter and son to any one without seeing the horoscope and stars. One Senior in temple commented"It is money that matches" The non believer in horoscope is unfit to be a brahmin, he should give his daughter to Muslim/ Christian if he is wealthy.Who is a brahmin? Because of these brahmins the community is blamed by others."

Is non believing horoscope leads to non believer of God? Then how these people will conduct marriage In revolution mode? No Prohit, No fire etc?

Will these persons follow Hindu rituals and sacrifices?


At his death will he do Sratham etc?

Wishing you to share your views on this.

I would like to bring up a point here..you see in our Puranas most marriages were without horoscope match.
Kings married which ever woman they fancied.

Even Brahmins married princesses when a King offered his daughter in marriage.

Rama married Sita based solely on the fact that He strung and broke the bow in Janaka's court.
Arjuna won Draupadi also based on skill of archery.

I don't think that Arjuna saw horoscope before he married Ulupi.
It was love at first sight and so with Subhadra.


Kusha married Kumudvati a Naga Princess when her brother Kumuda offered her hand in marriage to Kusha.

Princesses had Svayamvaram where they would chose the Prince/King they liked.
All Princes and Kings would be invited.

I did not see anywhere that a King or Prince had to have his horoscope matched before he was invited to a Syavamvara.
It was always considered an insult to a King if he was not invited for a Svayamvaram.
That means that horoscope match was NOT mandatory.

In fact a Kshatriya takes pride if he kidnaps a princess and marries her.
Does anyone check horoscope before kidnapping someone?

I guess horoscope matches were not really in vogue in ancient times.

So what was the reason ancients didn't really consider horoscopes in marriage?
The Royals had Brahmins for advisors so why didn't any Brahmin at that time advise horoscope match before any marriage?

 

[renuka]

Is non believing horoscope leads to non believer of God?

NO..non believing in horoscope does NOT mean non believing in God.

Some leave everything to God and accept any outcome be it good or bad in the hands of God.
Sometimes horoscope believers tend not to have faith in God 100%.
They sometimes feel they can override even Karma and try to play God.

On the other hand there are people who do not believe in anything at all.
So I guess at the end of the day..everyone makes their own decisions.

 

[biswa]

The six deeds/traits of a Brahmin are as follows:

1. To learn
2. To teach
3. To worship for yourself
4. To worship for others
5. To give what you can
6. To accept what is offered in love

I don't see where belief in horoscope matching fits into this.

 

[sarang]

Both janaka's and rama's lineage, kula and attributes, valour and suitability are extolled in great detail before rama is allowed near the bow. After arjuna, posing as a brahmin wins the contest and gets draupadi, king draupada sends his son to spy/ investigate the real identity of the groom; he would have been disappointed if arjuna was a brahmin and not a kshatriya.

Dharma for royals is different from that of ordinary mortals. Astrology is vedanga; it was used to decide when auspicious deeds are to be started; matching of the qualities of bride and groom is perhaps just one use of jyotisha. it is a tool used along with getting to know about the prospective groom/ bride, their kula, family values etc. vivaha-jyotish would not have been studied and applied by our ancients, if it is worthless.

The current trend is to demand medical certificates of both for matching, because we do not know the character, behaviour and genealogy of the wild boys and girls.

I would like to bring up a point here..you see in our Puranas most marriages were without horoscope match.
Kings married which ever woman they fancied.

Even Brahmins married princesses when a King offered his daughter in marriage.

Rama married Sita based solely on the fact that He strung and broke the bow in Janaka's court.
Arjuna won Draupadi also based on skill of archery.

I don't think that Arjuna saw horoscope before he married Ulupi.
It was love at first sight and so with Subhadra.


Kusha married Kumudvati a Naga Princess when her brother Kumuda offered her hand in marriage to Kusha.

Princesses had Svayamvaram where they would chose the Prince/King they liked.
All Princes and Kings would be invited.

I did not see anywhere that a King or Prince had to have his horoscope matched before he was invited to a Syavamvara.
It was always considered an insult to a King if he was not invited for a Svayamvaram.
That means that horoscope match was NOT mandatory.

In fact a Kshatriya takes pride if he kidnaps a princess and marries her.
Does anyone check horoscope before kidnapping someone?

I guess horoscope matches were not really in vogue in ancient times.

So what was the reason ancients didn't really consider horoscopes in marriage?
The Royals had Brahmins for advisors so why didn't any Brahmin at that time advise horoscope match before any marriage?

 

[sarang]

Thousands of other implied and explicit activities are not covered by this. Where does it say, one has to marry?

****

The six deeds/traits of a Brahmin are as follows:

1. To learn
2. To teach
3. To worship for yourself
4. To worship for others
5. To give what you can
6. To accept what is offered in love

I don't see where belief in horoscope matching fits into this.

 

[renuka]

Dharma for royals is different from that of ordinary mortals.

But royals are humans too isn't it?
I am personally neutral about horoscope.
I would not believe it 100% and neither would I disbelieve it 100%.

I have seen marriages with perfect matches end within 1 year.
I have seen people whose horoscope match shows No Thali Bhagyam and are still happily married.

So it is kind of hard to believe it 100%.
Astrology is a Science.
Science can also have errors.
So I guess Astrology is not error free.

That's why I still believe leave everything to God.
Only what destined to happen will happen.

Sometimes I feel that we are sort of "bypassing" God by depending too much on horoscopes.
Cos there is nothing greater in this world than God.

 

[renuka]

Thousands of other implied and explicit activities are not covered by this. Where does it say, one has to marry?

All bbs use this to prove that there are no brahmins today and all are imposters. This does not help.

Well DNA match is there to prove existence of Brahmins.
So that way no BB can deny the existence of Brahmins.

 

[renuka]

There is a version of Ramayan that mentioned Ravan being present for Seeta's svayamvaram.
So if all background checks were done with horoscopes how come it went undetected that Ravan would abduct Sita one day?

 

[suraju06]

Dear friends,

Jyotish is like the pickle in a marriage feast. You dont eat pickle as the main course and take other things as side items. It is the experience of a million people that no jyotish is 100% sure about any thing that he knows-and he knows little. He does a lot of approximations. In the process many fakes take gullible people for a ride. The best course, therefore, to follow is to completely ignore astrology in a very important matter like marriage. When you want to build a house you can consult jyotish and vastu to satisfy your fear of the unknown. When you start a new activity you can look for an auspicious time in consultation with an astrologer because you want to tie up all ends. But in marriage astrology has proved to be more of a hindrance than a facilitator. When everything else is okay there are cases when parents spend anxious moments as they have to reject a good proposal just because an astrologer says there is a malicious planet adamently sitting in the fifth house or that Rahu and Ketu have joined hands to lock every other planet in an impenetrable jail or some such exotic highsounding nonsense. Most of these astrologers do not know how to recommend a parihara to get over the problem because it is a very elaborate subject by itself and they have no knowledge of that. Taking into account all these inefficiencies in the system it is better to give a go bye to astrology in the matter of choosing a groom or a bride for your children. There is another angle to this matter which I give below:

Vaishnavites do not believe in any God other than Sriman Narayana. It is one of the tenets of Vaishnavism that a vaishnav should do prapatti in order to reach moksha/vaikuntam. The most important requirements for doing prapatti is ananyagatitvam and mahaviswasam. The former one is an unshakable belief that there is no other means to salvation than Sriman Narayana Himself and the latter is an equally unshakable trust in Sriman Narayana and Him alone that he will grant the boon. Vaishnavs, therefore do not pray to any other deity than Sriman Narayana. So you will find rarely a vaishnav visiting the Navagraha Kshetras to pray before the Navagrahas. If you think the belief in astrology among your close relatives is very oppressive, convert to Vaishnavism and show them all the madhyama Anguli (to borrow a term from Renuka). Para 2 above is written in a lighter vein. If any one comes forward to fight it out with me on my advice it will be a walk over for him/her because I prefer to withdraw even before the first punch is delivered.

Cheers.

 

[renuka]

:

If you think the belief in astrology among your close relatives is very oppressive, convert to Vaishnavism and show them all the madhyama Anguli (to borrow a term from Renuka).
Cheers.

LOL!!
It sounds very polite in Sanskrit.That's why these days I prefer to swear in Sanskrit.

BTW even if one is following Advaita one can chose to believe that all forms of God are one and need not believe in horoscope too and leave everything to HIM to decide.

 

[manoharkumar]

The current trend is to demand medical certificates of both for matching, because we do not know the character, behaviour and genealogy of the wild boys and girls

Dear Mr.Sarang, i am really curious to know under what all parameters have you clasified the "wild boys & girls?"

 

[manoharkumar]

So you will find rarely a vaishnav visiting the Navagraha Kshetras to pray before the Navagrahas.

Dear Mr.Suraju, i live mylapore and i can show you lot of vaishnava come inside the Velleeswarar temple go across to the navagraha enclosure take three or four rounds and walk off... this happens daily. No jokes!!

 

[sarang]

Now I see why you have misunderstood the statement. Perhaps, if the statement were to read 'the six fold profession alone defines a brahmin' is used by bbs. I joined the group when this was the main point for defining and abusing brahmins. Search of archives may throw some light.

Anyway, if jyotish is part of vedic teaching, it conforms to activities 1 and 2.

Where does narrow mindedness come when one has to choose what he wants - whether to put faith in horoscope or not. Your voice is harsh perhaps you have concluded that i am calling you a bb. Certainly not.

So quoting Manusmriti becomes bbs? You sir are seeing a ghost in every corner. No need to be so defensive.

You and others are welcome to consult as many horoscopes as you want. Don't show narrow mindedness by judging others who may not give it priority.

 

[renuka]

Dear Mr.Suraju, i live mylapore and i can show you lot of vaishnava come inside the Velleeswarar temple go across to the navagraha enclosure take three or four rounds and walk off... this happens daily. No jokes!!

But that is fine isn't it?
Some might not want to believe in astrology but there is no harm paying respects to the navagraha enclosure cos they are the planets of the solar system and each one comes with a Deva.

The planets are fine on their own but the astrologer could misinterpret things.I feel most of us do not believe in Astrologers way of looking at astrology.

 

[S.Ramanathan]

Once the famous astrologer shelvi (asthana astrologer of vijay tv) told in a public show called neeya naana that Horoscope is true and only the reader who predicts are not correct in their predictions. One example of accurate prediction of horoscope we can site is Kochenganar. It was predicted that if the mother of Kochenganar give birth after one day that boy will rule the state and the mother tied herself from the roof upside down to prolong the birth of the child. Since the blood has gone in lot to the child in the womb the eyes of the baby became red and henc he was named as kochenganar.

I had good experience of prediction and If your josyar is good and if you do proper parigaram you can mitigate the ill effects of the planets.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Manoharkumar

1 . I don't understand the meaning when suraju06 in post #11 refers to " conversion to Vaishnavism " !

2 . The Nava Tirupathi Temples maintained by the TVS Group are all Perumal Temples with each
one dedicated as a Kshetram to one of the Nava Grahas!

3 . Could you please tell me what's going on ? The discussion was meant to be about horoscopes, astrology etc.
Where does ' conversion ' come in here !

4 . If astrology is taken as a science and astrologers the scientists, why blame the science for the mistake
of the scientist ? Even in scientific diagnostic labs, we get " False Negatives " and " False Positives " -
whether it be a pregnancy test / HIV !

I'm a bit lost here, MK, HELP !

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[sarang]

This is an oft repeated futile argument. One can apply the same logic against medical profession - I went to the best doctor, did all tests, spent a fortune, but the patient is no more. The doctor prophesied that the patient will not last a month, but survived for years. This type counters will not lead anywhere.

Astrology is a system with its own set of rules, codified in the past. One is free to accept or reject it. It is not mandatory by law. Interpretation may vary between astrologers and a second opinion may help; of course only when the parties have some faith in horoscope they do consult.

The same argument can be extended to other activities as well - starting a job on an auspicious muhurta, doing bhoomi puja for a project and then commenting on the outcome - the project succeeded or failed.

The core issue is - there are many traditions followed by different groups of people; for them the 'ritual', 'step' is important. We should respect that. Applying the modern word 'science' to our traditional subjects is not correct.

But royals are humans too isn't it?
I am personally neutral about horoscope.
I would not believe it 100% and neither would I disbelieve it 100%.

I have seen marriages with perfect matches end within 1 year.
I have seen people whose horoscope match shows No Thali Bhagyam and are still happily married.

So it is kind of hard to believe it 100%.
Astrology is a Science.
Science can also have errors.
So I guess Astrology is not error free.

That's why I still believe leave everything to God.
Only what destined to happen will happen.

Sometimes I feel that we are sort of "bypassing" God by depending too much on horoscopes.
Cos there is nothing greater in this world than God.

 

[sarang]

I have deleted the second para from my post #6 as it is not relevant here and offends you unnecessarily.

So quoting Manusmriti becomes bbs? You sir are seeing a ghost in every corner. No need to be so defensive.

You and others are welcome to consult as many horoscopes as you want. Don't show narrow mindedness by judging others who may not give it priority.

 

[renuka]

Applying the modern word 'science' to our traditional subjects is not correct.

Science is just a terminology..it is not a modern word.

 

[Ramacchandran]

If the entire community rejects horoscope reading and analysing , there won't be rush in temples resulting in jobless of millions, like Archana coconut selling flower selling, No more Archakas in Temples, No money flow and people will save money. When astrologers studying horoscope he recommends 1000's of prayachittas like Yagas, Yagnas, Visiting famous shrines etc., and this will make atleast 70 percent of brahmins loose their jobs, and the so called title Brahman will be removed from the society.

Since the Brahmins started Analysing the horoscope he should now say no more horoscope no gothras etc.,

Will any one support this move?

 

[sarang]

No fear sir; brahmins are not the only community who match horoscope for marriage or use them to to know what lies in future or how get out of 'kashta kalam'. Marriage is only aspect of studying horoscopes. Whether one will get a visa or a green card is also in the list.

When sincere josyars recommend some prayaschitta karyams, many follow the advice. Some pay agent commission too, just in case.

Jyotisha is a subject and has many areas in addition to marriage matching. It is another hindu tradition and culture and deserves due respect. It will survive if left alone.

If the entire community rejects horoscope reading and analysing , there won't be rush in temples resulting in jobless of millions, like Archana coconut selling flower selling, No more Archakas in Temples, No money flow and people will save money. When astrologers studying horoscope he recommends 1000's of prayachittas like Yagas, Yagnas, Visiting famous shrines etc., and this will make atleast 70 percent of brahmins loose their jobs, and the so called title Brahman will be removed from the society.

Since the Brahmins started Analysing the horoscope he should now say no more horoscope no gothras etc.,

Will any one support this move?

 

[Ramacchandran]

If we reject our own rituals there wont be any brahmins to chant Vedas, no one will invite him to chant vedas in the house, No Marriages with Sasthrigal, Hence all the maths that claim they are the saviors of Vedas are to close down, No Veda school, No yearly cermoney, like sradham, Death rituals, Kaaryams, no philosophy taught in school of Vedas, hence no cheaters in the name of God. Temple tanks will be converted in to apartments, HRCA Department are to be closed., Since no fears about horoscope, the human need not fear for a hidden enemy like Ghost/ Pithr/ demon etc.

I am sure we can save millions of rupees by this and make our wards rich.

I feel every family spends more than a lakh of ruees per annum in these rituals and I wish who advices that horoscope match not needed for brides and grooms and only money matters should give up brahmin culture followed at their house and advice their sons, daughters and relatives to follow them. Few drops will make a tank full.
If one family in one street follows this will spread like a wild fire and all will return to life instead of listening Ramayana, maha Bharatha, and stories etc.

I wish these high society people should avoid visiting temples too. (So that they need not spend money) Let them start a group "Abrahjaman" meaning born from cloud.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Ramachandran,
Your tone is horrible.
Let us start at the size of font, it is too big. Writing in bold means you are screaming.
Who made you in-charge of keeping traditions?
Even if I wanted to support your idea, which I do not, i will put it in nicer format.

Hinduism is too vast, and one idiosyncrasy does not make or break it. The practices vary from place to place and time.
What may be right for you is not necessarily right for others.
You basically missed the important point of Hinduism, that supreme Brahman dwells in the hearts of all beings.

So please make your point as an argument, without blaming and cursing. Expect counter points from others and respect it.
Some basic curtesy and etiquette is needed to keep decorum of this site.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Renuka,

I quote you:

BTW even if one is following Advaita one can chose to believe that all forms of God are one and need not believe in horoscope too and leave everything to HIM to decide.

I agree with you.