Nothing Vedic in ‘Vedic Maths’

[prasad1]

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Advocating ‘Vedic mathematics’ as a replacement for traditional Indian arithmetic is hardly an act of nationalism; it only shows ignorance of the history of mathematics


Gujarat has made it compulsory for school students to read the texts of Dinanath Batra, endorsed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi. According to news reports, Mr. Batra has now proposed a non-governmental education commission which will Indianise education through, for instance, Vedic mathematics. The Minister for Education has also mentioned Vedic mathematics as part of her agenda.
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Wrong solutions like “Vedic mathematics” persist because an insecure political dispensation values the politically loyal over the learned who are loyal to the truth. (“Merit” apparently is important only in the context of reservations.) Such political processes are historically known to damage real traditions.


As I wrote over a decade ago in my book The Eleven Pictures of Time, those who attain or retain state power through religion are the worst enemies of that religion, whatever be the religion they claim to represent: Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism.
Nothing Vedic in ?Vedic Maths? - The Hindu

 

[tks]

Sri Prasad

Have you seen any book on so called mathematics based Sutras?

I had a chance to browse one such book many years ago in someone's house.

These Sutras codify many of the arithmetic calculations into simple rules which allow for complex arithmetic operations (example: multiplying two three digit numbers) to be performed without using paper using only the mind. Even I was able to do the arithmetic using the rules. Since we are trained differently I found it impractical to carry the rules into my daily life.

It seems this author objects to the word Vedic - to me it is an irrelevant point. The article seems to be more about his ego than what is best for teaching mathematics to children. I actually met a Professor who had published a few papers in application of so called Vedic Mathematics to reduce power consumption in IC circuit processing.

I met her in a conference and here is an abstract of her paper I found online

http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r10/singapo...vities2009/20091123TENCONWIET1AbstractBio.pdf

This woman told me that she had been to villages to teach mathematics using the Sutras and had great results. She found that the faculty in IIT Madras and other institutions dismissed her findings without even listening. She showed me pictures of her and few of her students teaching mathematics in rural setting.

Bottomline: The article that appeared in Hindu is biased and does not present a balanced view.

 

[prasad1]

For those not familiar with Mr. Batra.

Mr. Dinanath Batra has shot to limelight kicking up a lot of dust in the process. He has proclaimed himself as the protagonist of the idea to Indianise the country’s education. He is the convenor of the Shiksha Bachao Andolan Samiti. This institution has set up the Non-Governmental Education Commission to boost his campaign. He has, with not much difficulty, brought on board educationists of similar ilk. But his lofty mission has disturbingly similar strands with those of the Hindutva political project. The supporters of this project have often been embroiled in unseemly controversies targeting minority communities. As a result, the noble, and all-encompassing nature of Hindutva its supporters so often ascribe to the idea has been sullied, drawing criticism from intellectuals of all religious groups – minority and majority alike.
Mr. Batra strikes a chord in the hearts of many ideologues of the Bharatiya Janata Party. That gives him the clout and publicity. Gujarat has led the way in following the prescriptions of Mr. Batra. In the schools, his books carrying lessons with dubious scientific facts and ridiculous medieval values now form part of the curriculum. He professes to teach Vedic Mathematics, Value Education, and Integral Humanism. No one can ever criticize inclusion of these subjects in text books. But, Mr. Batra’s intentions are far more sinister and divisive. Religious myths must never be termed as history and Hinduism must not appear to circumscribe Indian Nationalism. Such allusions are misleading and are repugnant for a young impressionable mind. It might sow the seeds of fanaticism.

 

[tks]

For those not familiar with Mr. Batra.

Mr. Dinanath Batra has shot to limelight kicking up a lot of dust in the process. He has proclaimed himself as the protagonist of the idea to Indianise the country’s education. He is the convenor of the Shiksha Bachao Andolan Samiti. This institution has set up the Non-Governmental Education Commission to boost his campaign. He has, with not much difficulty, brought on board educationists of similar ilk. But his lofty mission has disturbingly similar strands with those of the Hindutva political project. The supporters of this project have often been embroiled in unseemly controversies targeting minority communities. As a result, the noble, and all-encompassing nature of Hindutva its supporters so often ascribe to the idea has been sullied, drawing criticism from intellectuals of all religious groups – minority and majority alike.
Mr. Batra strikes a chord in the hearts of many ideologues of the Bharatiya Janata Party. That gives him the clout and publicity. Gujarat has led the way in following the prescriptions of Mr. Batra. In the schools, his books carrying lessons with dubious scientific facts and ridiculous medieval values now form part of the curriculum. He professes to teach Vedic Mathematics, Value Education, and Integral Humanism. No one can ever criticize inclusion of these subjects in text books. But, Mr. Batra’s intentions are far more sinister and divisive. Religious myths must never be termed as history and Hinduism must not appear to circumscribe Indian Nationalism. Such allusions are misleading and are repugnant for a young impressionable mind. It might sow the seeds of fanaticism.

The above piece is just someone's rant about someone by name Batra. What I was looking for was substantive specifics that makes a compelling case as to what is wrong. Instead it is just name calling at its best or worst .....

 

[prasad1]

Vedic Mathematics is a book written by the high-ranking Hindu cleric Bharati Krishna Tirthaji and first published in 1965. It contains a list of mental calculation techniques claimed to be based on the Vedas. The mental calculation system mentioned in the book is also known by the same name or as "Vedic Maths". Its characterization as "Vedic" mathematics has been criticized by academics, who have also opposed its inclusion in the Indian school curriculum.

Tirthaji claimed that he found the sutras after years of studying the Vedas, a set of sacred ancient Hindu texts.However, Vedas do not contain any of the "Vedic mathematics" sutras. First, Tirthaji’s description of the mathematics as Vedic is most commonly criticised on the basis that, thus far, none of the sūtras can be found in any extant Vedic literature. When challenged by Professor K.S. Shukla to point out the sutras in question in the Parishishta of the Atharvaveda, Shukla reported that the Tirthaji said that the sixteen sutras were not in the standard editions of the Parishishta, and that they occurred in his own Parishishta and not any other,
The book contains 16 sutras, each of which lists a mental calculation technique. Prof. S. G. Dani of IIT Bombay points out that the contents of the book have "practically nothing in common" with the mathematics of the Vedic period or even the subsequent Indian mathematics. Tirthaji has liberally interpreted three-word Sanskrit phrases to associate them with arithmetic.

The first edition of the book edited by Prof. Vasudeva Saran Agrawala, who indicates that there is no evidence that the sutras are "Vedic" in their origin. The techniques mentioned in the book do not date back to the Vedic period either. For example, multiple techniques in the book involve the use of decimal fractions, which were not known during the Vedic times: even the works of later mathematicians such as Aryabhata, Brahmagupta and Bhaskara do not contain any decimal fractions.

A number of academics and mathematicians have opposed these attempts on the basis that the techniques mentioned in the book are simply arithmetic tricks, and not mathematics. They also pointed out that the term "Vedic" mathematics is incorrect, and there are other texts that can be used to teach a correct account of the Indian mathematics during the Vedic period. They also criticized the move as a saffronization attempt to promote religious majoritarianism.


Dani points out that while Tirthaji's system could be used as a teaching aid, there was a need to prevent the use of "public money and energy on its propagation, beyond the limited extent". He pointed out that the authentic Vedic studies had been neglected in India even as Tirthaji's system received support from several Government and private agencies.


Tirthaji's claimed that the sutras are relevant to advanced mathematical techniques such as successive differentiation or analytical conics have also been dismissed by the academics. S. G. Dani calls "ludicrous" the Tirthaji's claim that "there is no part of mathematics, pure or applied, which is beyond their jurisdiction". S. G. Dani also points out that Tirthaji's methods were not unique, although they may have been invented by him independently (he held an MA in mathematics). Similar systems include the Trachtenberg system or the techniques mentioned in Lester Meyers's 1947 book High-speed Mathematics. Alex Bellos points out that several of the calculation tricks can also be found in early Modern European treatises on calculation.
Vedic Mathematics (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[prasad1]

As stories go, this is not a bad one, but the evidence does nothing to support it. The 16 sutras expounded by Tirathji do not appear in any known edition of the Atharva Veda. Tirathji’s defenders have claimed that Tirathji was so immersed in Vedic thought that he was able to glean what the Vedic seers had in mind even if it was not explicitly so stated anywhere in the Vedic corpus. If one were to actually concede this meeting of minds between Tirathji and the ancient Vedic seers, it would have the unfortunate consequence of implying that not just Tirathji but even these seers were limited in their mathematical understanding.

All the sutras largely do is make the burden of addition and multiplication faster (though never nearly as fast as the cheapest pocket calculator), and even that, they do at a cost. Students studying the traditional method of multiplication should ideally understand (and bad teachers themselves fail to grasp this) what multiplication is, how it works, and how it is in essence an act of repeated addition. Tirathji’s methods are just rules that make mathematics seem like a bunch of tricks which are easy to implement but difficult to understand.

The sutras, unfortunately, only reveal how little Tirathji knew of mathematics. Today, they only symbolise the strivings of a colonised mind searching for some self-respect, and we can find their equivalent in the Sangh Parivar’s absurd attempts to search for the technology of the jet engine in the udankhatola of The Ramayan. At least Tirathji’s quest was far more understandable and forgivable, given his times, but that we Indians should still take it seriously only shows the extent to which our creative imagination remains colonised.

The Fraud of Vedic Maths

Another interesting paper is
Myths and reality : On ‘Vedic mathematics’S.G. Dani
School of Mathematics
Tata Institute of Fundamental Research
http://www.tifr.res.in/~vahia/dani-vmsm.pdf


Tksji,
Would you still call it rant? If so then I give up.

 

[prasad1]

What is “Vedic” Mathematics? I am referring here what has popularlycome to be understood by that name, and not what it should strictly mean.Going by the propaganda reports “Vedic Maths”’ is an “amazingly compact and powerful system of calculation”, and one also hears things like “once you have learnt the 16 sutras by heart, you can solve any long problem orally”, and so on.Incredible hyperbole indeed !! Actually it is nothing of the sort. It is essentially a compilation of some tricks in simple arithmetic and algebra. The term “trick”is not used here in any pejorative sense, meaning to convey deceit of some sort.It just means a short cut, with a bit of psychological appeal to it. “Vedic”mathematics is indeed a collection of short cut procedures, applicable to onlyan assortment of special situations, and quite an incoherent one at that. It is thus really not a “system”, though there is a popular misconception to that effect.

Vedic Maths

 

[tks]

Sri Prasad - Thanks for providing more references.

In post #2 I talked about a book where the sutras even if they had no Vedic origin (a point irrelevant for me) seemed useful.

Back in 1980 there was a person who published book under his name called 'Trachtenberg system of speed mathematics' which seemed to be a copy of a more ancient book under the title of Vedic Mathematics.

Actually there is a pdf copy of the book available here and found this online. I purchased this book back in 1980s and never used it.

http://drtayeb.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/trachtenberg-system.pdf


Many of the analysis about what is fraud or not is irrelevant in my view. If a better approach to learning existed it can be adopted.

In Post #2 I did give reference to Prof Ramalatha Marimuthu who related to me the direct experience of some people in teaching arithmetic to kids in rural India. What I understood is that the name Vedic Mathemtics is a turn off to some. Many academics did not support the effort though the experience of those who went to rural India was positive.

These people in your references are hung up about if a method is referenced in Vedas.. who cares .. If it pleases them they can call it Trachtenberg system and see if there are better way to teach. What I mean by substantive in my earlier critique is discussions about content and approach and not about name and its origin.

 

[prasad1]

It is like the pooja Satynarayan Katha.

It is told that Satyanarayan Katha is in REVA volume of Skanda Purana. But this volume is devoted to pilgrimages on the valley of river REVA. In Satyanarayana there is no Reva river. In original Skanda Purana there is nothing like Satyanarayana. Recent Skanda Puranas added it with clear note of its new addition in Skanda.

You said

better approach to learning existed it can be adopted

I have no qualms about adopting proven techniques. I am not a mathematician so I do not know how good these techniques are.

So when you manufacture the origin of facts, the facts even if true looses its value.

India has too many truly amazing things to be proud of, why embellish it?
The Greatness of Ancient Vedic India’s Developments The Greatness of Ancient Vedic India?s Developments
Madhavji of The Nirmukta Freethought Community writes:

At least Tirathji’s quest was far more understandable and forgivable, given his times, but that we Indians should still take it seriously only shows the extent to which our creative imagination remains colonised.

 

[mskmoorthy]

The argument used to be there is no math in vedic math. As per the title there is nothing vedic in vedic maths - so what we have is pUjyam or shUnyam!

I do not want to jump in the middle of clashing titans! You may want to look at this article by Prof. Noretta Koertge ( Influenced by Prof. Karl Popper )

http://www.indiana.edu/~koertge/KYmulticult.pdf

Many of you may be familar with Sokal's hoax - If not it is worth reading it (or re-reading it)
Sokal affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[prasad1]

http://www.indiana.edu/~koertge/KYmulticult.pdf
I did not understand this

Many of you may be familar with Sokal's hoax - If not it is worth reading it (or re-reading it)
Sokal affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is a great article.

I am not a titan, I am more like a battering Ram. LOL

 

[tks]

It is like the pooja Satynarayan Katha.

It is told that Satyanarayan Katha is in REVA volume of Skanda Purana. But this volume is devoted to pilgrimages on the valley of river REVA. In Satyanarayana there is no Reva river. In original Skanda Purana there is nothing like Satyanarayana. Recent Skanda Puranas added it with clear note of its new addition in Skanda.

You said
I have no qualms about adopting proven techniques. I am not a mathematician so I do not know how good these techniques are.

So when you manufacture the origin of facts, the facts even if true looses its value.

India has too many truly amazing things to be proud of, why embellish it?
The Greatness of Ancient Vedic India’s Developments The Greatness of Ancient Vedic India?s Developments
Madhavji of The Nirmukta Freethought Community writes:

I have maintained that in most instances History is like recording dreams .. Most of the time it is irrelevant.

My point is that the origin of anything is irrelevant. There is no need to focus on history. I have even made a controversial statements here in the past to communicate forcefully and alienated a few int he process when I suggested that that study of history for most part is for losers .. I am smiling when I type this, so not intending this to be offensive! If someone is a history buff let them continue and ignore my assertion.

If a method is better, one can evaluate that independent method without thinking about who said what .. The issue at hand is if students can learn better with a different systems.
Some people say so and anything substantive in terms of objection along this line is worth following up. If it is about history I have no interest.

Mathematics methods expounded in terms of rules or Sutras are not similar to a belief based ritual like the Sathyanarayan Puja. Beliefs do not need any validation since by definition they imply suspension of thinking faculty.

 

[tks]

The argument used to be there is no math in vedic math. As per the title there is nothing vedic in vedic maths - so what we have is pUjyam or shUnyam!

I do not want to jump in the middle of clashing titans! You may want to look at this article by Prof. Noretta Koertge ( Influenced by Prof. Karl Popper )

http://www.indiana.edu/~koertge/KYmulticult.pdf

Many of you may be familar with Sokal's hoax - If not it is worth reading it (or re-reading it)
Sokal affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for your references..
I am not a titan either.
Also there is no clash.
Debates make a forum more interesting.

I usually debate against a post and not about a person.

Prasad ji always shared interesting news items and his views are very much welcome in my mind even if I disagree.

I find that your posts are usually interesting and follow up on references you quote.


PS: There is at least one person in the forum who jumps around like a chicken with its head cut off (I have never seen one) at the first sign of an intense debate.
Perhaps a better metaphor is அப்பம் செய்யும்போது கொதிக்கும் எண்ணெயில் போட்டதும் சிறிது நேரம் குதிக்கும் .. we do not want many more like that LoL

 

[prasad1]

I usually debate against a post and not about a person.

Prasad ji always shared interesting news items and his views are very much welcome in my mind even if I disagree.

PS: There is at least one person in the forum who jumps around like a chicken with its head cut off (I have never seen one) at the first sign of an intense debate.

I have seen it some 50 years ago ( and I am sorry even today),
Perhaps a better metaphor is அப்பம் செய்யும்போது கொதிக்கும் எண்ணெயில் போட்டதும் சிறிது நேரம் குதிக்கும் .. we do not want many more like that LoL

Thanks TKSJI.