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You are referring to organized religion. Hinduism is not a centrally organized religion. In Hinduism people have their freedom to choose their beliefs, lifestyles, including the right to discard ceremonial aspects. Some of the ceremonial aspects are overbearing and the big picture is lost in their shadows. But should we not continue to expand our thought process? Should it stop as soon as we declare "I am out of religion! Thank God!".

Man created Belief System. True. But that is out of his necessity to explain existentialism. You may not agree with the solution but you can't deny that there remains a question that is outside any known logical framework.

1. I believe ALL religions are to some extent organized religions: the organizing force is their Holy Books. Vedas & Puranas organize Hinduism, Bible organizes Christianity, Torah organizes Judaism and Koran organizes Islam...and these Books identify different Gods and explain how the world works; Hinduism has a family of Gods and deities, it preaches the Janma poorva Karma, Hell and Heaven, and there is re-incarnation etc; Christians believe the Trinity of Christ - that he is the God, Son of God who came to this earth to absorb the sins of His followers, and Holy Spirit; Islam preaches that God is formless, there is a Judgement Day and there is no re-birth etc.

2. My thought process is that there is only one thing that's relevant - your Action or Karma in this world, there can't be any previous birth or re-birth..you die and your soul disappears and the game is over. Therefore, try to get your Freedom aka Moksha aka Viduthallai in this world using your hard work, hard planning and execution..follow your Free Will, discard all the superstitions of the religious thoughts and make your life as simple as possible...your Moksha - Viduthallai is possible in this world.

3. You agree that Man created Belief System, which is called the Religion and their Gods, IMO.

4. What's the question that is outside any known logical framework?

Let's talk...

Cheers.
 
My thought process is that there is only one thing that's relevant - your Action or Karma in this world, there can't be any previous birth or re-birth..you die and your soul disappears and the game is over. Therefore, try to get your Freedom aka Moksha aka Viduthallai in this world using your hard work, hard planning and execution..f

Cheers.

sir, there is another angle of religion or god, which calls for JUSTICE,for which both the theists and atheists commonly agree with. Justice , i mean here.

while denying karma, which is a kind of religious form of justice, though not delivered in front of your eyes to witness, unlike any other CJM does in indian judicial system.

here comes my question, which i have been seeking the answer from many for long, but not got convinced yet. the preamble here is 'JUSTICE FOR ALL".

lets say, some one rapes 100 women in his bunkers, no cops could catch him and he leads a noble life (in public eyes) and dies ceremoniously? how justice is meted out for all his evils, by atheist views?

another eg, a man slaughtered 6Mn humans,lived a joyous lavish king's life all though his life on earth, and one fine day when he was check mated by the society, he shot himself though his nostrils. will the 6Mn lives he took, could compensate for the one single life of himself, though his suicide? can a single life compensate 6Mn lives? how do we deliver justice, at this juncture?

how do we have a system to deliver justice to the acts of debauchery?

in this sort of confusion, man kind had devised a slightly better system, though not clear and visible, but apparently convincing, that, the KARMA theory gives fairly a convincing answer to this, in terms of deliverance of Justice ..

Let me know if you have any better deliverance system of justice of all those 3 points, I mentioned above...a hint, you are free to drag, Richard Dawkins here..


note:that question was not posed to sh.Yamaka alone. any one out here is free to respond. im only waiting for an answer here
 
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I believe ALL religions are to some extent organized religions: the organizing force is their Holy Books. Vedas & Puranas organize Hinduism, Bible organizes Christianity, Torah organizes Judaism and Koran organizes Islam...and these Books identify different Gods and explain how the world works; Hinduism has a family of Gods and deities, it preaches the Janma poorva Karma, Hell and Heaven, and there is re-incarnation etc; Christians believe the Trinity of Christ - that he is the God, Son of God who came to this earth to absorb the sins of His followers, and Holy Spirit; Islam preaches that God is formless, there is a Judgement Day and there is no re-birth etc.

Books are merely implements to help people organize their thoughts, not their activities and commitments. Organizations like Church delegate authority and the command flows all across the planet until it knocks on the doors of their followers, demands certain obligations including membership dues. Only then you can claim you 'belong to that church'. That is not how it is in Hinduism, as far as I understand.

My thought process is that there is only one thing that's relevant - your Action or Karma in this world, there can't be any previous birth or re-birth..you die and your soul disappears and the game is over. Therefore, try to get your Freedom aka Moksha aka Viduthallai in this world using your hard work, hard planning and execution..follow your Free Will, discard all the superstitions of the religious thoughts and make your life as simple as possible...your Moksha - Viduthallai is possible in this world.

Actually, nothing is relevant. In the big Cosmos and Space-Time manifold, it wouldn't matter if we existed, ever existed, ever to be existed. The universe exists in our mind. If we don't exist, a whole universe vanishes. That is known to even the most atheist level Scientists.

However, there is something more. Universe cannot have a time direction. Time is a measure of some property. If Universe has that property, it should be measurable and it would be a strange too, since why should Universe behave in a manner to evolve in certain direction? The entropy is not a fundamental law of universe. Universal laws are time-invariant laws. Therefore, time-reversal is perfectly within its scope and physics. Therefore, nothing wrong at all, if someone believes they will be born again in future, or there will be a time-travelling universe that brings them back to life. You can extend these arguments in multiple ways and they are all acceptable as realistic.

Being born again is not an impossibility. It has not been mathematically ruled out. Poincare's theorem will show that parallel universes are possible in a quantum mechanical world. At any instant, multiple possibilities exist and as per Poincare's theorem, each of them occur with certain probability. The universe undergoes degeneracy every second. That is mathematics. Hence, information is both frozen and dynamic in the Universe. What prohibits rebirth in that universe? Nothing. I can argue perfectly within science that rebirth is possible.


You agree that Man created Belief System, which is called the Religion and their Gods, IMO.

Of course. Read above. If a man doesn't exist, his universe vanishes. Therefore, the universe is born with a man. It is ok to say he created that universe. Why is it wrong to say he created religion and Gods? Yes, it is correct. So what? If you say "man is such a weakling he created something that must be untrue" then you are implicitly assuming that there can be entities stronger than man which can create true things. Proportional binary logic can be used to prove or disprove our own beliefs to ourselves. That is the limitation of logic, not a proof of something existing or not existing. Yes, there are logical frameworks superior to proportional logic. Perhaps another time.

What's the question that is outside any known logical framework?

The question of whether there is a supernatural force that controls our destiny, shapes our lives and universe, or whether everything is purely probabilistic (which means nothing other than "I don't understand, I just invoke probability").
 
Books are merely implements to help people organize their thoughts, not their activities and commitments. Organizations like Church delegate authority and the command flows all across the planet until it knocks on the doors of their followers, demands certain obligations including membership dues. Only then you can claim you 'belong to that church'. That is not how it is in Hinduism, as far as I understand.



Actually, nothing is relevant. In the big Cosmos and Space-Time manifold, it wouldn't matter if we existed, ever existed, ever to be existed. The universe exists in our mind. If we don't exist, a whole universe vanishes. That is known to even the most atheist level Scientists.

However, there is something more. Universe cannot have a time direction. Time is a measure of some property. If Universe has that property, it should be measurable and it would be a strange too, since why should Universe behave in a manner to evolve in certain direction? The entropy is not a fundamental law of universe. Universal laws are time-invariant laws. Therefore, time-reversal is perfectly within its scope and physics. Therefore, nothing wrong at all, if someone believes they will be born again in future, or there will be a time-travelling universe that brings them back to life. You can extend these arguments in multiple ways and they are all acceptable as realistic.

Being born again is not an impossibility. It has not been mathematically ruled out. Poincare's theorem will show that parallel universes are possible in a quantum mechanical world. At any instant, multiple possibilities exist and as per Poincare's theorem, each of them occur with certain probability. The universe undergoes degeneracy every second. That is mathematics. Hence, information is both frozen and dynamic in the Universe. What prohibits rebirth in that universe? Nothing. I can argue perfectly within science that rebirth is possible.




Of course. Read above. If a man doesn't exist, his universe vanishes. Therefore, the universe is born with a man. It is ok to say he created that universe. Why is it wrong to say he created religion and Gods? Yes, it is correct. So what? If you say "man is such a weakling he created something that must be untrue" then you are implicitly assuming that there can be entities stronger than man which can create true things. Proportional binary logic can be used to prove or disprove our own beliefs to ourselves. That is the limitation of logic, not a proof of something existing or not existing. Yes, there are logical frameworks superior to proportional logic. Perhaps another time.



The question of whether there is a supernatural force that controls our destiny, shapes our lives and universe, or whether everything is purely probabilistic (which means nothing other than "I don't understand, I just invoke probability").

1. Please read Indian history and the contribution of Hinduism - the Caste System and its Oppression of unsuspecting people.

Indian Constitution understands it very well and tries to remedy it to some extent: That's called "Reservation to SC/ST/OBC" that Mr. Krish Sir was talking about.

2. I have told you what's relevant to ME. It's up to your Free Will to explore different endpoints. My endpoint is Moksha aka Viduthallai aka Freedom from the tyrannical clutches of Organized Religions, and to attain social, political and economic freedoms... by working harder than anybody around me and the sense of FEARLESSNESS, I have attained all that... my life is now very simple:

Just admire the Majesty of Nature by understanding at least some of the laws of physics, chemistry, biology, medicine, astronomy etc.

Knowing that NO man-made God can negotiate with the awesome power or force of Nature.

3. For me there is nothing Supernatural... ALL just Natural.

For I don't have a mental bombast, nor verbal bombast to invent anything not out there!

Take care.

ps. The topic of Crime and Punishment is totally a different domain, to be talked in a different thread of Administration of Civil Society, IMO. The non-existent Gods that religions have created will never answer to the problems of Criminal Justice, IMO.
 
hi K sir,
just info...........my paternal grand father joined police force during Brtish period as constable and retied as sub inspector during

british period....very honest/ hard working TAMBRAM........british utilized our honesty......still many TAMBRAM girls in TN police....

i know many of them........


regards
tbs

dear tbs,

thank you for your kind and informative note.

it is not easy working in the civil service. anytime.

in the days of the kings, one has to listen to the head of the realm. during the raj, the will of the englishman held sway. today, it is the whim and fancy of the elected representative.

what makes it difficult is, that these guys change ever so often. so one guys wishes becomes the target of revulsion for his successor. so, i think, one needs to learn to swing like the palm tree, along with the wind.

add to it, the poor pay structure, built in corruption and above all the government practice of using the civil service as a social mobility tool to bring upward mobility quickly to those lower onthe varna scale - all this should be sufficient reasons to seek employment elsewhere for the tambram.

good to know, that there are still idealists out there who continue to follow the police career - i think reward wise, it is among the most exciting of all careers, notwithstanding how the police are normally portrayed in kolly/bollywood.

my best wishes to anyone whom you know, and who is in tamil nadu police.
 
1.

ps. The topic of Crime and Punishment is totally a different domain, to be talked in a different thread of Administration of Civil Society, IMO. The non-existent Gods that religions have created will never answer to the problems of Criminal Justice, IMO.

my question remains the same. can we have a justice system, without the concept of KARMA , to punish those 3 eg cited above? in nutshell, can the current judicial system deliver justice to debauchery?

We dont need a separate thread to discuss this. all we need in a simple yes or no? thank you Y
 
Namaste Kunjuppuji, Naraji and Others,

"Originally Posted by kunjuppu ..... afaik there are no tambrams living in the slums. all of us have somewhat extensive coverage of the community through blood and society. do you know of any tambram living in the slums, anywhere in india?
Originally Posted by Nara
K, this is a question no TB dare face. They love to dwell in victimhood mindset, meritocracy, privileges taken away, DK rhetoric of hate, etc."

I have personally come across many but right now I can recall only three brahmin families that lived in abject poverty (slum like locality)...(1)One of my relatives, hired a TB old man(retired teacher)as private tutor for his kids(my cousins) and hired the TB Old Man's daughter (35+yrs unmarried) as maid to clean utensils & wash clothes ---my hands are trembling as I am typing this ie recalling their situation, this happened in my childhood when I was around 10yrs.(2)A brahmin family (only one daughter, in +2/intermediate)moved from village to city in search of livelihood,their situation degraded day by day moved to slum like locality, unsocial/unsafe for girls to even stand outside home even in day time...the situation/life style of girl succumbing to the poverty&loosing confidence in parents to find suitable groom for her, is left to your imagination.(3)A brahmin family (1 son and 5 daughters),son could not find job and eventuall became insane and died by jumping from building rooftop,by God's grace the daughters got married.

I dont know what percentage these three brahmin families constitute but certainly there are many brahmins families living in abject poverty that too in slums --- it is upto you all individuals to find/debate the reason behind the situation of these brahmin families ie God/Fate/Free-Will/Lack of Hardwork/Reservation/MK/Atheism/Lack of Vedic knowledge etc.,

I learn a lot by reading the posts from you all.

om hiranya rethase namaha

Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam
 
dear jai,

thank you for an informative post.

there is a charity called 'kerala iyers trust'. it is by pattars, for all tambrams. i belong to it. the turnaround is quick.

so folks, who need financial help, either for education, or for medical purposes, should apply right away. the turnaround time is a couple of days, for indeed verification is done by a third party.

one does not even have to be poor, but just the need is enough - one member in this forum, could not meet the capitation fees for his daughter's college, but was ok with the fees. within a couple of days, the capitation fee was helped out.

even for jobs, if they need, i am quite sure, there will be help.

surprising thng is, that kit has not received any requests for the past few months. a few years ago, there used to requests predominantly to help out with the fees for poor tambrams or pattar kids going to college.

then that stopped, and help was needed only for health purposes - operation, or support to the family due to debilitating disease of the main wage earner, or something to tidy up because of a wedding expense (yes that too - purchase of a thali, koora podavai, basic household setup ).

long standing members here are aware of kit, but it may be a good idea now to let everyone know of this organization.

the kerala iyers trust, is managed by a large hearted couple mumbai retirees, admin cost is zero, supported by pattars the world over - for benefit of pattars and tambrams.

still, i am somewhat skeptical that 90% of tambrams live in poverty. though i am a pattar with all my antecedents in north malabar and further away palghat.

incidentally, there was an intense thread here once upon a time, about unity and the need to build up tambram friendly institutions.

there was a talk of emulating or merging with kit. kit is successful because it has an ardent dedocated though small support base, mostly from mid east, and a scattered north american one. the requests come through various sources, but a kit member from nearby where the request is made, should go and verify the need. which usually passes. and the money is transferred immediately to the needy bank a/c. turnaround 2 or 3 days from when rqst received. admin cost ZERO.

it could be repeated here, but nothing came out of it.

then there was talk here of starting an education institution in b'lore where tambrams qualify for special status as we are linguistic minority. it came to belling the cat - lots of advice and hot air; but no action.

there was a marriage bureau - but largely due to internal politics, it split and is now operating as a separate organization, with a website of its own. incidentally, the website is restricted one, with none of the wide spectrum of ideas like you see here. those who wished to discuss narrowly the context of what they perceived to be brahminism and what is good for brahminism and how it is getting destroyed these days, moved there. the rest of us, stuck around. :)

my own personal view, was that any large scale brick and mortar or even an endowment takes time and politics. personally, i know, that a recipe for success is to be single focus charity. i would not like any influence from the mutts (kanchi or otherwise) or the supposed tambram friendly political parties like bjp or worse still rss or bajrang dal.

so to get broadbased help, one needs to keep it focussed to the least common denominator. which is why, i think kit has been successful. no one talks of politics or religion there. just needy, and the needer. and amount of need. very simple.

the quickest way, so as not to lose a generation, is to gather funds as needed, quickly and readily. youth is a great thing to waste. .. we should help our youth immediately. not ask them to wait for buildings to come up. it will never happen, i think.

this forum has also collected funds for eduction. except, those who were helped, did not even have the courtesy, to report us, of their progress, inspite of repeated queries. such too is folk who receive help.

i come from lower middle class, but like the rest of tambram friends and family, within two generations, have moved to a comfortable level, with a few of us qualifying to be considered higher in the economic scale. all this due to hard work, innovation, some common sense, and ability to seize opportunities, and willingness to relocate to any part of the world. chase jobs where they are.

i realize that there are pockets of tambram poverty. there are those that could be helped, and there are some, that are beyond it. it just happens that way. again, i think, there should be a desire to shake off the burden of poverty - a willingness to relocate is the most primary requirement. and then... willingness to take any job. many factory jobs are better paying than desk jobs. i do not know, if we still have a stigma against working with our hands. not sure...

go where the jobs and opportunities are. sitting in a village and being a temple priest may be self satisfying or a handmedown vocation, but if it does not put food on the table, move on.

i think, we are morally obliged, to help anyone who has a desire to move up, especially the young who are unable to pursue an education for want of funds. as some one here said, that nowadays banks are obliged to fund for education - they should take advantage of it and not consider student loan a burden, but a help to step up the economic ladder.

sorry for the long blabber.. your post just simply triggered some random thoughts, which somehow were related to tambram poverty.

90%? i dont know!!

thank you and God Bless.
 
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Namaste Kunjuppuji, Naraji and Others,

"Originally Posted by kunjuppu ..... afaik there are no tambrams living in the slums. all of us have somewhat extensive coverage of the community through blood and society. do you know of any tambram living in the slums, anywhere in india?
Originally Posted by Nara
K, this is a question no TB dare face. They love to dwell in victimhood mindset, meritocracy, privileges taken away, DK rhetoric of hate, etc."

I have personally come across many but right now I can recall only three brahmin families that lived in abject poverty (slum like locality)...(1)One of my relatives, hired a TB old man(retired teacher)as private tutor for his kids(my cousins) and hired the TB Old Man's daughter (35+yrs unmarried) as maid to clean utensils & wash clothes ---my hands are trembling as I am typing this ie recalling their situation, this happened in my childhood when I was around 10yrs.(2)A brahmin family (only one daughter, in +2/intermediate)moved from village to city in search of livelihood,their situation degraded day by day moved to slum like locality, unsocial/unsafe for girls to even stand outside home even in day time...the situation/life style of girl succumbing to the poverty&loosing confidence in parents to find suitable groom for her, is left to your imagination.(3)A brahmin family (1 son and 5 daughters),son could not find job and eventuall became insane and died by jumping from building rooftop,by God's grace the daughters got married.

I dont know what percentage these three brahmin families constitute but certainly there are many brahmins families living in abject poverty that too in slums --- it is upto you all individuals to find/debate the reason behind the situation of these brahmin families ie God/Fate/Free-Will/Lack of Hardwork/Reservation/MK/Atheism/Lack of Vedic knowledge etc.,

I learn a lot by reading the posts from you all.

om hiranya rethase namaha

Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam

Dear Sir,

You are right. Whether we call it as God/Fate/Free Will/Maya/Lack of Hard Work/Reservation/Atheism/Lack of Vedic knowledge etc..etc, the ground reality of many poor Brahmins are gruesome/in a pathetic state of affairs. They do exist in this fast moving dynamic world. Many are having a big question mark - What is my future??.

As a layman and as a compassionate community member, we should not ignore the existence of such poor families. It should be our moral responsibility in our society to guide them and help them as possible.

As responsibilities towards our community people (every community is responsible for their people. Each community should first take care of their community people and the result wold be a better society in total), we should be considerate towards them and help them leading a descent life. A trust, a organization etc. are all needed for sure to come to their rescue.
 
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"i think, we are morally obliged, to help anyone who has a desire to move up, especially the young who are unable to pursue an education for want of funds. as some one here said, that nowadays banks are obliged to fund for education - they should take advantage of it and not consider student loan a burden, but a help to step up the economic ladder.

sorry for the long blabber.. your post just simply triggered some random thoughts, which somehow were related to tambram poverty.


90%? i dont know!!" - Kunjuppu said.

Dear K:

In my estimation, about 80%-90% of Bs or TBs are doing fine leaving about 10%-20% to the mercy of charities.

In other communities about 3/4 of the people are making less than Rs. 150 per day, which I consider dirt poor.

I have heard that in Madurai, TVS Group is doing a fine job of helping TBs. Likewise, every city has Charities with or w/o connection to major Temples to help poor TBs.

Other NGOs are also helping very many older poor TBs in Madurai, Trichy and Chennai.. the thing is people should contact the "right person". That information is the key to these poor people.

Cheers.
 
In my estimation, about 80%-90% of Bs or TBs are doing fine leaving about 10%-20% to the mercy of charities.

In other communities about 3/4 of the people are making less than Rs. 150 per day, which I consider dirt poor.

Somebody has been living far away from reality. Unfortunate.
 
Hi Praveen:

What % of TBs make less than Rs.150 per person per day in TN these days?

Let's have your input here, if you visit this Thread!

Thanks.

Y
 
"i think, we are morally obliged, to help anyone who has a desire to move up, especially the young who are unable to pursue an education for want of funds. as some one here said, that nowadays banks are obliged to fund for education - they should take advantage of it and not consider student loan a burden, but a help to step up the economic ladder.

sorry for the long blabber.. your post just simply triggered some random thoughts, which somehow were related to tambram poverty.


90%? i dont know!!" - Kunjuppu said.

Dear K:

In my estimation, about 80%-90% of Bs or TBs are doing fine leaving about 10%-20% to the mercy of charities.

In other communities about 3/4 of the people are making less than Rs. 150 per day, which I consider dirt poor.

I have heard that in Madurai, TVS Group is doing a fine job of helping TBs. Likewise, every city has Charities with or w/o connection to major Temples to help poor TBs.

Other NGOs are also helping very many older poor TBs in Madurai, Trichy and Chennai.. the thing is people should contact the "right person". That information is the key to these poor people.

Cheers.

Y,

my gut feeling, is that our tambram community is not as heartless as worded out by some folks here. though i respect their opinion, i only wish they would bring out solid statistics to prove such pov.

i am only talking of tambrams here and not the whole brahmin world, because that is beyond my sphere of interest.

in my own charitable group, kerala iyers trust, as stated earlier, there has hardly been any requests the past 3 months. there are folks with money, waiting to give, and the kitty is full enough, that donors are requested to withhold funds.

myself, i feel, poverty knows no caste or creed, but knowing my group, i am satisfied to let the money 'be' and not extended to beyond tambrams.

i tend to agree, that there are business groups like TVS or Infosys who have social conscience, and do help out their own, while giving a helping hand to india at large. these cannot and must not be parochial in their thinking. but folks here can. let those who bleat the most, set an example and coordinate help efforts. there is a lot of good in that. n'est pas?

i am only aware of the sensitive ones of the tambram community angst, especially from the sensitive folks, whose helplessness at seeing their less fortunate folks deprived of what they feel is 'fair share' of the government largesse. after all, dont tambrams pay a share of taxes too?

but, our indian history is fraught with complications. the very concept of caste, and how we treated the dalits, could be an instrument for charge of 'crime against humanity', and it certainly was one. no other civilization has had an equivalent condemnation of so large a group in so absolute a manner - the u.s. slave system including. that is what i think. :)

today's tambram, to put it simplistically, in tamil nadu, for the not so gifted materialwise or studywise, is 'wrong caste wrong time'. perhaps, it was not always such. maybe there were even times of privilege. that can be debated, but what cannot be debated, is today, a tambram, is a social pariah in his own native land. not as individual, but as a community. i think so :)

no amount of arguments re 'righting past wrongs', 'the burden of that ________ manu' laws', upward mobility desire of other castes, the small pie that india still offers to be sliced into so numerous slices, social engineering etc. - would console or convince many a tambrams of the gross injustice done to them by periyar, his dravidian descendents, and most above all, folks like me, who espouse periyar's cause of social reformation (albeit selectively) and act as an apologist for it in this forum.

the poor tambrams have my sympathies, for these are my own, as i consider them. but what i feel, is, that each obstacle is a challenge. i am quite sure that everyone here, including yours truly has faced some challenge in life, in india, due to our tambram caste. we have brushed it aside, and moved along.

to stagnate, to come to this forum, and point fingers and beat the breast, is but an enjoyable exercise i feel. a good play show. we have seen it before. the most effective purveyor of this anger was 'jamadagneya', whose enthusiasm went to such a level, that at one point, it was happy hindu alone standing up to him.

but jamadagneya was evil. he stepped over many uncrossed norms and decency of this forum to propagate a bankrupt policy. once in a while, we see echoes of jama, but these appear to stay for a brief period, and like some boosvaaNam, glitter for a few seconds, only to disappear. forever.

thank you. :)
 
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thank you raghy for that smooth intervention. :)

i will request this dialogue with you and you only, if you dont mind.

the intent of my thread, atleast at start, was to touch upon lucrative careers that we tambrams shun only for reasons known to ourselves. in my own case, i was literally directed away from medicine, armed forces, merchant navy, police and such. accounting engineering was ok.

i believe, that there is an intrinsic dislike, avoidance for certain types of jobs, of which now includes vaideekam (from what i hear, good paying, but unable to find brides per the neeya naana show, and from numerous posts here too).

for any 'unemployables' the armed forces is an option. a cousin of mine, deemed 'no good' joined the air force, and retired with decent pension. my own family vadhiar's son, protesting at the restricted life, ran away and joined the army. barring these two, i do not know of anyone in the indian armed forces. one uncle joined IPS, did well to find contacts, who paid him 10 times the salary in private sector and so jumped ship.

is there a stigma in our minds against certain professions? that was my intent, and ofcourse, an ode to our chennai police. based on what i hear of lawlessness in the north, i consider our urban chennai, b'lore and mumbai police tops. it is not an easy job, and our perception of the ஏட்டு is mired with prejudice, possibly an hold over from the raj days. we do not look upon him as a saviour of our society, which is what we consider a policeman, in my canadian society, and possibly in your own australian one.

hope this explains, and i wish to solicit your opinion, if you would so oblige.

i thank you.

Sri.Kunjuppu Sir, Greetings.

I was not able to log in for the last few days, hence the delay in replying your mesage. Kindly bear with me, please.

My personal exposure in Tamil Brahmin community is very limited. I did not spend much time at all in any of the community based activities. So, my opinion may not be relevant at all.

Two persons (Tamil Brahmins) from our village attempted police training selection and did not get selected. One was rejected on medical grounds. But, as you rightly mentioned, I have not seen too many persons expressing desire to become police constables; Sub-Inspectors, yes. Since most of them could gain some kind of bachelor's degree, (I didn't!) they all aimed for SI selection.

But, yes, I too think, there is a stigma attached to that field.

Cheers1
 
dear raghy,

i have another query for you. it has been longstanding in my mind, and certain passionate posts here has revived this curiosity in me again. i apologize for any bother. to me, it will be more of a learning experience.

if i am not mistaken, you have said that you come from the village. i am urban brought up, and would like to consider myself the second generation removed from lower mid class level (this means rice& sambaram on evenings, no outings, new clothes twice a year, basic electricity, no fan, government or aided schools, no vehicles at home bar the bike, home maker mom, lots of siblings, a clerk or deskjob father, rented portion of a large house with common facilities, enough to eat but no fancy stuff).

i too have lived this way, till my dad moved upscale to what i consider a mid middle class.

would this be considered poverty level under today's standards. afaik there are no tambrams living in the slums. all of us have somewhat extensive coverage of the community through blood and society. do you know of any tambram living in the slums, anywhere in india?

elsewhere in this thread, it has beens stated that '95% of the tambrams are still poor'. now you, like me, are an expat, nri or whatever term we can use. the reality is that we are tambrams, brought up in tamil nadu, and moved abroad 20-30+ years ago.

what, in your mind, is the common living standard of 95% tambrams. a snapshot. to be specific, if we exclude the top 5%, what do you think is the average lifestyle of the rest? also, maybe, if you dont mind, base it on, your personal friends, relatives, acquantances. not on hearsay.

i do not wish to engage drb, in what may become an intense encounter right now. based on his longevity in the forum, and more familiarity, i will save it later :)

thank you.

ps: poverty can be defined in many ways. there is the slum dweller. to me he is poor. anyone living in a brick house, qualifies to start from the lowest strata of middle class, and based on the living quarters, various stages of middle, to upper class. to some here, definition of poverty for a tambram, might or could be different. i will acknowledge that. the purpose is to understand what defines 'poverty' for a tambram.

pps. can we confine ourselves to tambrams, because that is what we are. also that is what i can relate to. even other tamil communities, though i have high familiarity, i do not know enough to compare.


Sri.Kunjuppu,

There is no slum dwelling in villages. A typical hut would be situated on, usually on 500 to 1,000 square feet plot with elbow room. Most huts would be one large living space with the kitchen at one corner (sometimes outside too). Bamboo used for constructions seldom are treated; so, the bugs would be busy eating the core of the bamboo; there would be constant buzzing noise at night times; hut would be cosy in winter; hot in summer. Most roofs would be supporting some kind of vines with சுரக்காய், அவரைக்காய் etc. I can still remember the smell of cooking in the evenings from these huts.

Since I have never lived in a city slum, I don't know if any Tamil Brahmin lived in the slum or not.

Every community has its share of ultra rich to very poor. Defenition of poverty is subjective, anyway. From the list of lower middle clas living, personally, I did not have a bycycle; we were not paying rent.. don't know if my dad would have afforded paying rent; If not for the little bit of farming, I don't think we would have had 'enough to eat' ( I skip the fancy stuff). But we were not considered 'poor' at any time! Matter of fact, I thought, I was growing up in a 'well to do' family!

I am not widely travelled. I left India in 1990. To what little I observed, I came across most Tamil Brahmins leading a 'lower middle class' to 'middle middle class (if there is such a thing)' life. But when it comes to education or daughter's marriage, it was a huge strain. I heard most families buckled under those expenses. Had I lived in India, I don't know if I could afford our son's education. But then, we were very careful not to have too many children. We just had one child in India.

From what I understand, things have changed for the better across the board in India. Standard of living has improved. Confidence exhibited by the youngsters are great. In fact, I am so outdated, it may not be appropriate for me to comment on these things! I sincerly wish and hope, living standard for everyone would get much better.

I know I have not replied your query meaningfully. But my knowledge is very limited to address such a wide topic.

Cheers!
 
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