Perumal Naivedyam (பெருமாள் நைவேத்யம்)

[rsreenivasan]

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Sarang, Yes. I heard about the Srirangam incident. I am from Srirangam. But my friend said that it was not cancelled but just preponed to accomodate timing.

But when I visited Srirangam in April, I was diappointed seeing the Sesharayar Mandapam used as a parking lot. The mandapam had Cars, bikes & bicycles parked in the Mandapam.

-ஶ்ரீனி

 

[Nara]

....But when I visited Srirangam in April, I was diappointed seeing the Sesharayar Mandapam used as a parking lot. The mandapam had Cars, bikes & bicycles parked in the Mandapam.

Dear Srini, I bet your grandfathers, and mine as well -- my grandparents from both sides lived in Srirangam for many years -- would be shocked that cars are allowed into the precincts of temple, what blasphemy!!

But what about those SVs standing right outside the sanctum sanatorium )) trying to fleece anyone who looks like a brahmin and out of town?

Don't be disappointed my friend, perhaps you have been in the U.S. too long with a strong sense of nostalgia. The orthodox Brahmin priests in these temples simply cannot afford this misplaced sense of nostalgia, they have a family to feed and take care of.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

In my college days I read a book by george michael; he talks about the different types of tourists.

The british go to foreign lands to brag about their trips to neighbours. The americans - to meet their neighbours; the germans to verify what is said in the tourist manual is true; the italians to check whether a pizza eatery can be opened.

Similarly we have temple tourists who want to check whether the priest is inside the temple or having siesta. Worshiping the deity or getting immersed in the sanctity of the temple, even for a minute, is secondary or irrelevant.

I visited the 'appakudathan temple', a divyadesam, near tiruchy. It was five in the evening, the river cauvery was in floods, heavy rain and no power. Even though I wanted to leave because of the frightful weather and falling light, the priests requested me to wait for the evening worship and prasad; I left the temple only after seven.

It is wrong to conclude that the priests expected a huge dakshina from me and that is why they made me wait for the prasad. He did all the evening pujas without rush.

 

[sarang]

I understand all these vehicles belong to the people employed by HR&CE department.

Sarang, Yes. I heard about the Srirangam incident. I am from Srirangam. But my friend said that it was not cancelled but just preponed to accomodate timing.

But when I visited Srirangam in April, I was diappointed seeing the Sesharayar Mandapam used as a parking lot. The mandapam had Cars, bikes & bicycles parked in the Mandapam.

-ஶ்ரீனி

 

[sangom]

நான் இருக்கும் ஊரில் உள்ள கோவிலில் ( செயிண்ட் லூயிஸ், யு.எஸ் ), கோவில் சமயலறையில் பிரசாதம் சமைத்த பின் ஒரு சிறு பாத்திரத்தில் பெருமாளுக்கு எடுத்து நைவேத்யத்துக்கு அனுப்பி விட்டு விற்க ஆரம்பித்து விடுகின்றனர். ஓரிரு மணி நேரம் கழிந்த பின்னரே அபிஷேகமும், பூஜையும் ,நைவேத்யமும் செய்யப்படுகிறது. இவ்வாறு செய்யலாமா ? வீட்டில் கூட நைவேத்யம் ஆகாமல் சாப்பிட அனுமதிக்க மாட்டார்கள் ..கோவிலில் நிச்சயம் செய்யக்கூடாது என்பது common sense என்றே நினைக்கிறேன்.. இருந்தாலும் இவ்வாறு செய்வதற்கோ செய்யக்கூடாது என்பதற்கோ சாஸ்திர விதிகள் உள்ளனவா ? இருந்தால் இவ்விதிமுறைகளைத் தர முடியுமா?
-ஶ்ரீனி

If there is no convention or aagamam that the naivedyam has to be a stipulated quantity or in a particular type of vessel etc., as believed in the sthalapuranas, there is no objection to a small portion of the naivedyam being transferred to a small container and kept apart for God's eating and the rest being eaten away by devotees. Rules followed in houses cannot always be implemented in temples with large number of devotees/visitors.

But nobody should eat from that container kept earmarked for the Saami, that is all. After all do not all the faithfuls shout at the top of their ecstasy about Sabari tasting each wild fruit and then offering that bitten fruit to Rama? If only Sabari has the licence to do that and none else why do we glorify that story? Or, if only Sabari has the right for so doing, appoint a ST (hunter) woman as the chief cook.

 

[natpushpa]

Post #6. I fully endorse the views of Sri SubhaLakshmi. My experience in PA. USA is also similar one. There the local conditions such as climate ,distance, time etc are extreme / critical. and are to be taken in to account. Natpushpa.

 

[kunjuppu]

this habit of folks, especially new to usa or canada, arriving from india, to find practices different in places of worship, and find fault with it, appears to be quite common.

taking into consideration, the cold canadian weather, one sikh congregation opted to eat temple food seated in tables & chairs.

ofcourse, the norm for partaking langar is sitting on the floor, very much a sama pandhi concept.

newcomers from india, objected to a standing tradition in this gurudwara, which ended in fights, knifing, jail sentences and discord.

folks like sreenivasan, should best try to understand and adapt to the new places of worship. if not, go and build your own temple. there may be enough others, who will support him in starting a new congregation.

 

[Govinda]

newcomers from india, objected to a standing tradition in this gurudwara, which ended in fights, knifing, jail sentences and discord.

This is an unwanted comparison!

folks like sreenivasan, should best try to understand and adapt to the new places of worship. if not, go and build your own temple. there may be enough others, who will support him in starting a new congregation.

Kunjuppu Sir,

Mr. Sree is not complaining about any of the administration or social affairs in the temple. His concern was regarding the distribution of Prasadam without offering to the Lord.

Those who go to the temple just for food, should enjoy their food at home or a restaurant. The idea of Prasadam is to offer the food/water and get blessed by the Lord, so it will nourish our mind and body. The PrasAdam in a temple, is much more powerful and revered, as the Archa or Utsava Murthy were installed as per Vedic ShAstra/MAntras, and the Lord is considered to be Immanent in that Form. In divya desams, the Archa Icons were self formed mostly for the Rishis, Sages, devotees, sung by alwars etc., thus the Lord is Svayambhu formed out His own will and power. Plus, those who visit Vishnu temples, as per agama, should be empty stomach in the morning or digested in the evening, so to consume only Prasadam.

I visit the temples only twice a year, to just enjoy His Vigraha Form and obtain His blessed PrasAdam. It is ridiculous even for the administration to distribute within the temple premises, any 'unoffered food' to even the careless/ignorant/hungry crowd. They had to be offered only the PrasAdam, in their own interest of helping/blessing the visiting crowd . So, this slip must be only due to the careless attitude of the administration or the priests, either to easily finish off their work or keep the crowd moving [[Oops!, the crowd isn't 1000's like India, plus so much for tech. and comforts]. Plus, our indians, be it administrators, priests or public, need a good lesson on socializing/communication skills, organization, Punctuality and Sincerity/dedication. Only after this ethical education, devotion follows naturally.

In that case, they should come up with better organization or other schedules. The public can be informed in advance, through some pamphlets/notice boards on the importance of consuming the Prasadam. Even if Tirupathi Mgt does that, it should considered as part of their negligence. These people are totally ego-minded and arrogant, to even listen to the shAstrAs or hear from learned vedic scholars or from sincere devotees.

Thus, your quoting to build temple on one's own desire is in the similar lines of neglect and ignorance.

Regards,
Govind.

 

[Nara]

...
Those who go to the temple just for food, should enjoy their food at home or a restaurant. .

Even though I am a self-proclaimed strong atheist, I have to agree with Govinda here. If one takes the trouble of building a temple, and then shows complete disinterest in following the very basic and rudimentary principle of "Hindu" worship, is really weird. Setting aside a little for later offering, and starting the distribution to the general public, is just not "Hindu" worship. The whole point of temple worship is to partake prasadam, and if that is done away with, what is the point, this might as well be a community center where people gather where good time is guaranteed for all.

Having said that, I still maintain Srini has no standing, the temple belongs to the committee and they can do whatever the hell they want. The best Srini can do is to stay away from this temple, or not eat anything at this temple.

Better still, give up all this nonsense and become an atheist like me .

Cheers!

 

[Govinda]

Rules followed in houses cannot always be implemented in temples with large number of devotees/visitors.

Shouldn't it be the other way. Rules not followed SINCERELY at home, cannot be followed outside, meaning in Temples.

But nobody should eat from that container kept earmarked for the Saami, that is all. After all do not all the faithfuls shout at the top of their ecstasy about Sabari tasting each wild fruit and then offering that bitten fruit to Rama? If only Sabari has the licence to do that and none else why do we glorify that story? Or, if only Sabari has the right for so doing, appoint a ST (hunter) woman as the chief cook.

Sabari did that in the true devotion for the Lord. She wanted to discard the bad ones and offer only the best fruits to the Lord.

But what we are doing at the temple, to blindly feed our organs with animal instinct. We do that neither due to the devotion for Lord nor in the interest of getting His blessings. We are not Sabari or Alwar, dont compare Salt and Sugar just because they are white.

So, not only the administration is negligent, we as temple-goers are equally ignorant.

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

re your post #34,

i have lost the count re my friends, in the 1970s, from chennai, who used to go to the pittsburgh perumal temple for free food. they used to bring their white friends too along with them.

these were bachelors, studying at cmu or uofp and on fridays and weekends, would think nothing of driving to the temple for some tasty food. on the cheap.

personally, i think, srinivasan, should not visit any hitherto established temples, as he is wont to find fault. let him follow the example of the sri lankan tamil brahmin vathiars of toronto. start his own temple, and run it according to what his whims and fancies lead on any particular day.

i used to watch the affairs of the toronto hindu temple. it was a harmonious organisation between south indians, srilankans and malaysians. every once in a while, you had an all knowing tambram screaming his head off over the abacharams, and thankfully used to be shut up and shut out.

later in the years with large sri lankan immigration, the new sri lankans wished for traditions followed strictly per chidambaram. even the most orthodox tambram kept quiet as they could not meet such high standards

 

[Nara]

...i have lost the count re my friends, in the 1970s, from chennai, who used to go to the pittsburgh perumal temple for free food.

K, all this shines a bright light on the ridiculousness of the religious. On the one hand they profess the greatness of Hindu religion, Dharma/Artha/Kama/Moksha, satananam, rishees, tradition, and what not, and yet, they think of temples as veritable restaurants, a free one at that where we get good eats.

Is it too much for these people who drive long distances to have a hashbrown or two before going to the temple so they can wait till the pooja is over for eating? Is it too much for the students of CMU and UofP to time their visits to the temple in such a way that they are right on time for the prasadam distribution?

I just don't understand the hypocrisy.

Getting along is a completely different question, there are many ways these people who bother to build a temple can follow tradition -- the tradition they never miss an opportunity to gloat about -- and at the same time get along and make it convenient for those who visit the temple. It would take a little effort, not a lot, and it can be done, if only they care.

For a practicing SV, the statue they call perumal is not just a representation of Ishwara, it is not just a convenience for focusing one's thoughts, it is Sriman Narayana himself. If you believe in such things, when prana prathishtai is done, Sriman Narayana is supposed to take on a suddha satva body of the same shape and size and mingle into the icon, literally becoming one and the same. In other words, that statute is Ishwara, just as much as the one who is supposed to reside in Sri Vaikunta. So, one who believes in all this mumbo jumbo and yet wants to take it easy when it comes to eating before the aradhanai is finished, is nothing but a crass hypocrite, not one who deserves to be knifed or worth knifing and going to prison.

Cheers!

p.s. BTW K, Pittsburgh has two kitchens, one for general public which is run more or less like a restaurant, and another for ardhanai. What is cooked for aradhanai is sent in full for offering.

 

[sangom]

I think the whole thread is a waste of time - for everyone. Someone has some ideas about how a temple should be run and he/she wants that to be followed in every temple he visits, as if he possesses a Power of Attorney from God! I think like what happened in the Sikh Gurdwara, this "disciplinarian" ought to have been handed over to the local police for being a civic nuisance.

Every temple will have its own rules and when we go to the temple we implicitly agree to obey the rules and conditions of the temple; only a person appointed by the proper authority can have the power to suggest that the practices should be changed in a particular way.

Govinda agrees that the temples are not for devotion and that we only blindly feed our organs with animal instinct; We do that neither due to the devotion for Lord nor in the interest of getting His blessings. With this ultimate truth from the horse's mouth, why not consider the temples as gossip clubs or meeting places?

<edited and removed. plz be careful while posting about other people's sensitiveness>

 

[Govinda]

I think the whole thread is a waste of time - for everyone. Someone has some ideas about how a temple should be run and he/she wants that to be followed in every temple he visits, as if he possesses a Power of Attorney from God! I think like what happened in the Sikh Gurdwara, this "disciplinarian" ought to have been handed over to the local police for being a civic nuisance.

Every temple will have its own rules and when we go to the temple we implicitly agree to obey the rules and conditions of the temple; only a person appointed by the proper authority can have the power to suggest that the practices should be changed in a particular way.

Govinda agrees that the temples are not for devotion and that we only blindly feed our organs with animal instinct; We do that neither due to the devotion for Lord nor in the interest of getting His blessings. With this ultimate truth from the horse's mouth, why not consider the temples as gossip clubs or meeting places?

<edited and removed. plz be careful while posting about other people's sensitiveness>

Sangom Sir,

I would like to point out the incoherence in your and kunjuppu sir's logic, examples, relating between events, regarding this topic. I will update this reply, as I dont find time right now.

Nara seems to understand the topic in right context, so, I wouldn't mind his being atheistic.

 

[kn_ravishankar]

According to me, if the prasad was prepared in two seperate vessle, the above procedure can be continured otherwise it is not adisable.

 

[sangom]

Sangom Sir,

I would like to point out the incoherence in your and kunjuppu sir's logic, examples, relating between events, regarding this topic. I will update this reply, as I dont find time right now.

Nara seems to understand the topic in right context, so, I wouldn't mind his being atheistic.

Shri Govinda,

Shri Nara seems to get back into his erstwhile Srivaishnava opinion when commenting on the aachaaram per se but, as an atheist now, he feels the entire stream of things and even the temples can be abandoned.

As an agnostic I will also agree that the modern temples like those in USA, Canada, UK etc., can be disbanded but I know from my long years of life that for many people here it is a sort of addictive behaviour. Many people go to temples for purposes other than worshipping god. Since I do not feel the need to visit the temple just a hundred yards from my house and do not attend any function/celebration there, people consider that I am an abnormal person.

Since temple-going has now become so important people, I feel we can have some relaxation of rules to suit local conditions. How come the same godhead which is spoken of "karunaamaya", loving and all that suddenly becomes so intolerant that he will not eat a portion of food from a large lot if the other portion is eaten by people - ordinary mortals?

Kindly introspect. These are all rules which we people have made for fooling our own conscience and getting a psychological conviction that the God which is supposed to be present in the idol is such a powerful, disciplinarian entity. When the God is invariably equated to the Supreme Almighty itself - whether the idol is Siva, Vishnu, Hanuman, Ganesha or Devi - and the question is put as to how such a supeme omnipotent god can be circumscribed within an idol, the usual answer from the believers' side is that the idol is only a reflection of the Supreme power. If this be true, I will say a reflection of the naivedyam should be sufficient for the reflection that is God.

We have a Siva temple in Trivandrum. Here the naivedyam for the main 'lingam' can be done during the morning session, only after two brahmins are served food and they have started eating as per long-standing tradition. Since the fare is very lean - cooked raw rice, one curry, some vegetable and buttermilk - there are no 'brahmins' coming forward to eat this nowadays at 11'o clock in the forenoon. So the temple has relaxed the rules and is admitting any person who needs food. Usually there are endowments also for brahmin-feeding on most of the days in addition to the two mandatory persons required as per custom and legend. Hence now a number of destitute brahmins and possibly non-brahmins are being fed. Swami gets his naivedyam out of the common cooking only after these people commence eating.

The most important part is this is a temple managed by a 100% brahmin samudaayam, no HR&CE.

 

[Govinda]

Shri Govinda,
Shri Nara seems to get back into his erstwhile Srivaishnava opinion when commenting on the aachaaram per se but, as an atheist now, he feels the entire stream of things and even the temples can be abandoned.

I understood that, but he commented appropriately for that context. In your examples, I got to compare sabari with the normal people, We also cannot deny that the world operates on free-will and the purpose of creation (acc. to shAstrAs, not to atheism) is for us to realize our fallacies, inefficiencies and irrationality and finally turn to the divine Creator. So, Vedas though provide strict disciplines, leaves realization to the individuals to work based on their level of knowledge/experience.

So, one should understand two different things here: 1. The priests/admin should post the details of Prasadam or very important priorities esp. needed for sanctification and for devotee's blessings. These are the necessities which should be enforced or promoted.
Whereas, 2. The other things like variety in rituals, gods, culture can be relaxed so to accommodate the varying adherants or situations, like you gave the sikh temple example, one can eat in a table or leaf etc. These can be relaxed.

Since I do not feel the need to visit the temple just a hundred yards from my house and do not attend any function/celebration there, people consider that I am an abnormal person. ..Since temple-going has now become so important people

They have a wrong notion or are just pre-judiced. One can be perfectly fine with the gods/worship with their home altar. This is why, for real SVs or saivaites, they have to do archa worship daily at home in the form of saligrAmAs.

Without adoring the home deities, going to the temple is not very appealing. One can only enjoy the temple murthiis, His powers (prasAdam) and its historical greatness (becos of rishis/saints etc, not for art/architecture), but one is not allowed to perform any poojas to them. So, frequenting to temples is just an excuse to skip their daily karmAs at home.

 

[Govinda]

How come the same godhead which is spoken of "karunaamaya", loving and all that suddenly becomes so intolerant that he will not eat a portion of food from a large lot if the other portion is eaten by people - ordinary mortals?

Nice Inquiry.

This query is not very relevant to the topic, but I still would like to address. [As the very basic idea of a temple, is to have a darshan and obtain the blessings (prasAdam)]

Cosmos, soil, rain were created first to aid the growth of vegetation. Vegetation was created prior to the living beings. So, He, the creator, was already an intelligent and generous person. By such a creation, He was like a mother to an innocent baby/child. When the child grows big, he has to request the mother for the choice of food. But, God has even more KarunyA instructing us about the best/healthy food, in the form of shAstrAs, to rescue us from the ocean of samsAra. So, we have to use our freewill wisely, to know that Creator/mother.

If you are a wealthy, rich landlord, how can the poor remove their hunger, unless you give them food or cash? If Steve Jobs is Intelligent, how can we enjoy his intelligence, unless he came up with Pixar films, iphone like gadgets? The same way, If Lord is omnipotent, how is that helpful, unless he blesses us with atleast a fraction of His power? But in all the above cases, one should create a need or a request. So, we offer food/water to enrich them with His powers/grace, and its consumption can elevate us, is the idea behind PrasAdam. The murthis after prathistA and Saligrama (svaymabhu), the Lord is welcomed (like AvAhayAmi/invitation) to be present, and through daily ArAdhanA/abhisekam, the waters and the food are purified to elevate our mind. But, one also has the option to graze the paddy fields like the cows, but I think we are a step higher striving to elevate our mind.

He doesn't become intolerant for not offering, else the resourceful creation wouldn't make sense. But, you are becoming less priveleged to get the best grace, in this rare birth of a human form. Reminds me of avvai's great words, 'aridhu aridhu...mAnidrAi piraththal ..aridhu..goon, kurudu.. ". You may have offered assistance to your poor neighbouring kids, but will you make your neighbour's kids, the heir of your bank accounts/property? Can a man who disowned his mother, earn her grace? But the Creator or Mother will still have pity, and chase us through different births and experiences. Why neglect such an yearning from our great Creator or Mother? In Thiruvalluvar's own words, 'KattradhanAl Aya payan en kol natrAn thoyAr enin', 'All your knowledge is vain, if one does not fall At His good feet who knoweth all'.

Should we remove our ignorance, or mis-judge His omnipotence? Again, choice is ours!

 

[Nara]

....I understood that, but he commented appropriately for that context.

Govinda, I just want to make one thing absolutely clear, I pointed out the absurd hypocrisy of those who build and run temples in the U.S. But I also feel Srini has no standing to object. Further, I think the whole idea of god, religion, temple, aradhanai, prasadam, all this is pointless and promotes unnecessary superstition.

Therefore, I submit, my POV is parallel to that of Shri Sangom.

Cheers!

 

[Govinda]

When the God is invariably equated to the Supreme Almighty itself and the question is put as to how such a supeme omnipotent god can be circumscribed within an idol, the usual answer from the believers' side is that the idol is only a reflection of the Supreme power. If this be true, I will say a reflection of the naivedyam should be sufficient for the reflection that is God.

That was a mis-understanding or advaitic understanding of Nirguna Brahman is the highest etc. That could be discussed separately.

We most times use only our mind/desire and discard the intellect. Other times, our intellect/reasoning itself is flawed. How are we going to meditate or realize that Omnipotent Lord? Arjuna could see the Viswaroopa, only after being bestowed with special vision. So, the Archa Murthy/ icons are the easy access to that transcendant Omnipotent Lord. The archa-murthy is Subha-Asraya, gives auspiciousness and support for dhyana/contemplation.

One may realize the Lord FINALLY, by repeated nitya-karma, hearing, memory, meditation, contemplation of a form of Lord. The daily karmAs are to involve the mind towards the Lord, so they cannot be easily distracted. By doing this, overtime we can visualize the form of the Lord (archa) easily, atleast at the time of death. 'Whatever One remembers at the time of death, he will become so' - Gita. If we are only fond of food always, not only we become obese/diabetic this life, we would become a pig next life.

Whatever one offers with devotion, is blessed and accepted by the Lord (Gita). He forgives the offenses in the offering. But, not offering, is not an offense, it gets the karma/the effect.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Sir,

It is not allowed. First it should be offered to the Deity and then only distribution
can start. Please Agama sastras for the vidhis.

Now what is being followed is that we eat first and then we offer the balance to
God. It is almost echchal.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sir,

It is not allowed. First it should be offered to the Deity and then only distribution
can start. Please Agama sastras for the vidhis.

Now what is being followed is that we eat first and then we offer the balance to
God. It is almost echchal.

NRR,

in the ultimate of things, do you think, that God is going to angry with someone for variation of a ritual? do we have such angry gods that we have to take care to please?

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Sri Kunjuppu,
No, not at all. HE won't. Otherwise HE is not God. But, there is some
discipline and respect expected from us. Agama sastras describe them.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Dear Prof. Nara,

Apropos your post No.7 , I give hereunder Sivavaakkiar's songs:

நட்டகல்லைத் தெய்வம் என்று நாலுபுட்பம் சாத்தியே
சுற்றிவந்து முணமுணன்று சொல்லும்மந்திரம் ஏதடா
நட்டகல்லும் பேசுமோ நாதன் உள்ளிருக்கையில்
சுட்டசட்டி சட்டுவம் கறிச்சுவை அறியுமோ ?

இன்னும் ஒன்று

கோயில்பள்ளி ஏதடா குறித்து நின்றது ஏதடா
வாயினால் தொழுது நின்ற மந்திரங்கள் ஏதடா
ஞானமான பள்ளியில் நன்மையாய் வணங்கினால்
காயமான பள்ளியில் காணலாம் இறையையே

He is one of the greatest siddhars we have heard of and his songs are
forthright and direct to the point. We have to reach that level.

 

[Govinda]

Apropos your post No.7 , I give hereunder Sivavaakkiar's songs:

நட்டகல்லும் பேசுமோ நாதன் உள்ளிருக்கையில்
சுட்டசட்டி சட்டுவம் கறிச்சுவை அறியுமோ ?

Did that devotee forget the episode of PrahalAda? or even kannappa nAyanAr?

In the analogy of 2nd line, doesn't the food carry the taste of the clay pot? meaning, dont we carry/reflect the material nature of the panchbhUtAs/senses? But, the Pot doesnt carry would be a better example of matter or Lord doesn't incur our karma, though resides in us!

Now, shouldn't that poem be rewritten?

இன்னும் ஒன்று

ஞானமான பள்ளியில் நன்மையாய் வணங்கினால்
காயமான பள்ளியில் காணலாம் இறையையே

If he has not seen a form, how is he going to visualize that Lord in his heart? Plus, how would he express his attainment without praises/mantrAs? How did he obtain that JnAna, without the scriptural reference? Isn't he contradicting his own logic?

The first line itself, describes the state of devotion [obtained thru jnAna(ஞானமான) and karma yoga (sincere effort/நன்மை].