Purnam and Shunyam

[renuka]

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To my general observation most problems in the world today are caused by holding on to an Ideology which no one wants to give up.

Well..an ideology could even be religion,tradition or culture or a combination of all three in varied proportions.

Sometimes I feel we humans tend to be like a Salmon...that is for all our lives we swim down stream in all matters except when it comes to religion/tradition/culture everyone swims up stream to spawn!

Why this trend? Shouldnt religion/culture/tradition be a down stream phenomenon to be let go off when we have reached our destination? I had seen even dying 85 year olds still trying to be a beacon of religion/tradition/culture.

When humans see that they are reaching their destination..they tend to panic thinking by letting go of the raft of life we lose our identity and then everyone becomes a Salmon and start swimming upstream to save themselves to look for fertile grounds upstream to spawn yet again and again from life to life.

Frankly speaking upon reaching a destination we have to alight from the plane or boat or whatever our mode of transport is.

Alighting does not equal to loss of identity.

Sometimes when everything is given up one might feel lonely...a cold lonely walk..no where to run..no where to hide.

Not all can withstand this transient loneliness.

Fear starts to creep in..then men run away from it..they huddle together to give comfort to each other and create false beliefs.

So he almost reached his destination but he ran away.

Now there is the other type..who feels the cold lonely walk..but he dared to go on..withstood everything..gave up what even he held on to for so long..at one point he felt he had no identity..but he kept walking.

Then he walked and walked and walked in that emptiness and reached fullness!

Then it dawns upon him that actually there was never a path at all to start with..there was never suffering to start with..there was never ignorance to start with..there was never even knowledge to start with..there was never even an identity to start with..there was nothing(Shunyam) to start with but yet one rediscovered Everything!

He is full(Purnam) once again as how he was meant to be.

I feel if humans realized this..the world would be a really better place...but sadly hardly any religion wants to address this cos no one likes to see their towers crumbling down.

As long as organized religions exists in an Ideological manner as not to be given up....the world is yet a very very selfish place.

 

[C RAVI]

Organized Religions are all with specific convictions, religiously and spiritually. And, all of them preach the same for the betterment of mankind and for love, respect, devotion, responsibility etc..etc towards everything else that exists, that humans can see, feel, use and praise.

Humans are getting selfish, getting crooked, getting greedy and so on. And, in that processes use religion/spirituality or discard religion/spirituality as and when it suites and helps to achieve their ulterior motives, with all their manipulative skills.

There is nothing to blame. To be blamed are Humans and Only Humans.

People who are well settled with sufficient/secured finances & materials/properties, with good family etc..and been inclined to Religion & been into spirituality all their life end up wondering what been expressed in OP, as they don't have anything else to worry about (with exceptions to future uncertainties resultant to external forces).

People who are still striving hard to achieve many things in life to justify meaningfulness of their own life, are relying on something or other - that may include tactical mind, spiritual inclination, manipulations etc.etc to find themselves where they want to be and with what they are yearning for (irrespective of the motive - reasonable/unreasonable/ethical/unethical)

The selfish humans either strongly hold on to the "pure essence" of religion/spirituality and remain composed and ethical or do what may come and in any right or wrong ways as long as their desires are achieved irrespective of their belief in religion and spirituality. They later are the type of people who bring shame to Religion/spirituality and Humanity.

 

[renuka]

People who are well settled with sufficient/secured finances & materials/properties, with good family etc..and been inclined to Religion & been into spirituality all their life end up wondering what been expressed in OP, as they don't have anything else to worry about (with exceptions to future uncertainties resultant to external forces).

This in my opinion is not entirely accurate.Humans tend to measure satisfaction and security based on financial status,material/property,good family etc.

One may have so called "everything" as most people would like to call it but the internal query can arise in anyone be it prince or pauper.

In fact internal query is the birth right of every human being with a functioning mind.

Many people tend to think that those who are well settled and so called well off tend to discard the idea of religion and God because there is nothing to ask for.

This again is not true..cos not everyone had been taught to pray in a transaction manner.

There are those who have prayed purely for the love of God without resorting to asking anything in specific for themselves and queries come naturally to their mind.

They are happy not becos they have the best of everything but becos they know how to live with that comes along their way.

Does this sound familiar?

The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.

 

[C RAVI]

This in my opinion is not entirely accurate.Humans tend to measure satisfaction and security based on financial status,material/property,good family etc.

One may have so called "everything" as most people would like to call it but the internal query can arise in anyone be it prince or pauper.

In fact internal query is the birth right of every human being with a functioning mind.

Many people tend to think that those who are well settled and so called well off tend to discard the idea of religion and God because there is nothing to ask for.

This again is not true..cos not everyone had been taught to pray in a transaction manner.

There are those who have prayed purely for the love of God without resorting to asking anything in specific for themselves and queries come naturally to their mind.

They are happy not becos they have the best of everything but becos they know how to live with that comes along their way.

Does this sound familiar?

Dear Renuka,

Yes! This is very much familiar. BUT, this is in general among the people who hold on to this conviction - "The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the most of everything that comes along their way"

What I am implying is - The so called well settled and called well off can tend to be inclined towards the idea of religion, internal query to explore more the mysteries/well intended unconventional thoughts to uphold humanity etc..etc.. BUT, others may not have the inclination towards all such stuffs.

More specifically, what I want to convey is, though people who are still striving hard to live as they wan to, have inclination towards all this aspects, these inclinations would not be predominant while living their mundane life and striving hard to achieve.

Basically, Human's Selfishness & Greediness mess up with Religion & Humanity. Even if Religion does not exist, humans would still be having ways and means to make hell out of their own life and the life of others.

Thus, Organized Religion can always be a boon to Mankind and not the curse. Humans with their fanaticism, stupidity & selfishness tend to degrade other Religion, develop hate, create problems for themselves and other and mess up with many things.

Unfortunately, humans fails to understand the essence of religion and thinks that - "The world would have been wonderful if there isn't any organized religion"

The root cause of the devastating disharmony among Humans is nothing but "HUMAN SENSES"

 

[sangom]

To my general observation most problems in the world today are caused by holding on to an Ideology which no one wants to give up.

Well..an ideology could even be religion,tradition or culture or a combination of all three in varied proportions.

Sometimes I feel we humans tend to be like a Salmon...that is for all our lives we swim down stream in all matters except when it comes to religion/tradition/culture everyone swims up stream to spawn!

Why this trend? Shouldnt religion/culture/tradition be a down stream phenomenon to be let go off when we have reached our destination? I had seen even dying 85 year olds still trying to be a beacon of religion/tradition/culture.

When humans see that they are reaching their destination..they tend to panic thinking by letting go of the raft of life we lose our identity and then everyone becomes a Salmon and start swimming upstream to save themselves to look for fertile grounds upstream to spawn yet again and again from life to life.

Frankly speaking upon reaching a destination we have to alight from the plane or boat or whatever our mode of transport is.

Alighting does not equal to loss of identity.

Sometimes when everything is given up one might feel lonely...a cold lonely walk..no where to run..no where to hide.

Not all can withstand this transient loneliness.

Fear starts to creep in..then men run away from it..they huddle together to give comfort to each other and create false beliefs.

So he almost reached his destination but he ran away.

Now there is the other type..who feels the cold lonely walk..but he dared to go on..withstood everything..gave up what even he held on to for so long..at one point he felt he had no identity..but he kept walking.

Then he walked and walked and walked in that emptiness and reached fullness!

Then it dawns upon him that actually there was never a path at all to start with..there was never suffering to start with..there was never ignorance to start with..there was never even knowledge to start with..there was never even an identity to start with..there was nothing(Shunyam) to start with but yet one rediscovered Everything!

He is full(Purnam) once again as how he was meant to be.

I feel if humans realized this..the world would be a really better place...but sadly hardly any religion wants to address this cos no one likes to see their towers crumbling down.

As long as organized religions exists in an Ideological manner as not to be given up....the world is yet a very very selfish place.

Religions are essentially devices which mislead humans far away from the true Reality (sorry for that usage, we have 'reality' as described by different religions none of which appears to be true, at least to me.). The human life itself is non-substantial and there is no such thing like a "soul" or "ātmā, jīvātmā etc." which continues from one existence to the next. What really is, the "sat" is the parabrahman which may be compared, roughly, to the screen in a cinema theatre which does not change but on which very many different cinemas can be projected for the audience which is led to believe that it is seeing some continuous story, thanks to the persistence of vision, the phi phenomenon, etc., all of which are inherent weaknesses in our visual system.

In a similar way, people generally see humans being born, grow, age and die and the only evidence is the physical body which disintegrates sooner or later, leaving, perhaps, only the skeletal remains as long-term proof. They are led to believe that all these phenomena like birth, growth, aging, death, etc., are real just as they are led to believe that a succession of still images projected on a screen at a certain rapid rate, looks like a "motion picture". This erroneous perception may be likened to the concept of māyā in advaita, though, strictly speaking, the two are different.

So we humans dwell all the time under the effect of the said māyā and believe that this universe is all for real; we are unable to even consider the possibility of what we consider as solidly real, being, in truth a phantasm of our senses. Religions and their tenets, preachings, come in handy and buttress this erroneous notion of the people. The atheists take to denying god and religion, but I doubt whether they do so after realizing the above truth.

Death ends one cinema show and what remains thereafter is the screen and nothing else, except the karmas of the character which dies.

But it is next to impossible for humanity to think or reflect beyond its usual limits and the reality of this world, this universe is such a thing that an ordinary mind/intellect has to die in order to realize the folly at the very last moment. The power of māyā is so great!

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Sangom,

Would like to know if you believe in Maya? Because you quiet often refer to Maya to explain things related to human life.

It seems to me that you believe in the term and theorem of Maya, the concept that's been offered by Hinduism.

Having conceived the belief that an ordinary mind/intellect has to die in order to realize the folly of the Universe (as there is nothing real), you are demonstrating the depth of the Hindu Philosophy. So, it is this religion that has given you vast knowledge and related conceptions.

Do you think, an organized religion is the root cause of Disharmony within one self and among fellow humans OR it's the sense of Human Species that has the caliber to be Selfish, Win & Survive to one's satisfaction, what may exist or does not exist?

Don't you think, the religious philosophies of each religion has given a bundle of knowledge, wisdom, directions etc and profess the right way of understanding the purpose of human life. And that, it's only human senses that either ignores it or misinterpret it, leading to disharmony in human survival?

My questions/queries are related to what been expressed in OP.

Kindly share your opinions at your pace. Would be glad to know your view points.

 

[renuka]

Thus, Organized Religion can always be a boon to Mankind and not the curse. Humans with their fanaticism, stupidity & selfishness tend to degrade other Religion, develop hate, create problems for themselves and other and mess up with many things.

Unfortunately, humans fails to understand the essence of religion and thinks that - "The world would have been wonderful if there isn't any organized religion"

The root cause of the devastating disharmony among Humans is nothing but "HUMAN SENSES"

Dear Ravi,

I have no acute problem with the concept of God or even organized religions to some extent but after some years of reading up stuff here and there..its seems to be organized religions actually does not really want us to realize the 'Truth" or "Reality" to a great extent.

It sort of wants us to always be in the dark...I wonder why we are asked to recite Tamaso Ma Jyothir Gamaya(Lead me from Darkness to Light) when technically organized religions do the exact opposite!

I always felt that Religion in the true sense should be like a mother holding on to the hand of her child who is trying to walk and helps him all the way through till he is steady enough to walk on his own and when the time comes ..the mother should kiss the child goodbye and let him go.

But I dont seem to get this feeling through organized religions.

In fact those who follow any organized religions strictly seem afraid that after their death religion and culture might decline!

Everyone seems stressed up to hold on to religion/tradition/culture even at the time of death.


That is totally not the state of mind I would ever want to die in..it's total unrest and utter chaos.

Why this happens?? I could only think that it's the side effect of organized religions.

Once I read an article about a Native from Peru(who did not belong to any organized religion) and he said death for him means giving up the body to merge with the elements and holding back nothing.

Why we seldom find this thinking in those who profess organized religion?

The old individuals of any organized religion dont think of merging with elements..they worry if their progeny will still follow culture/religion..they think of heaven and hell..they start to worry if their progeny will supply them the much needed Pinda and Water after death and the list goes on and on.

I feel men in the most primitive state is the purest in heart and mind and hence he is able to tune in to higher truth cos his mind is not influenced by organized religions.

Organized religions dont seem to want to let go of anyone's hand..at the crucial moment organized religions develop Empty Nest Syndrome and try to pull back the hand of the person who is ready to leave. ..there seems to be fear in organized religion that reality might just be an Emptyfulness that never even required religion to start with.

 

[renuka]

Religions are essentially devices which mislead humans far away from the true Reality (sorry for that usage, we have 'reality' as described by different religions none of which appears to be true, at least to me.). The human life itself is non-substantial and there is no such thing like a "soul" or "ātmā, jīvātmā etc." which continues from one existence to the next. What really is, the "sat" is the parabrahman which may be compared, roughly, to the screen in a cinema theatre which does not change but on which very many different cinemas can be projected for the audience which is led to believe that it is seeing some continuous story, thanks to the persistence of vision, the phi phenomenon, etc., all of which are inherent weaknesses in our visual system.

In a similar way, people generally see humans being born, grow, age and die and the only evidence is the physical body which disintegrates sooner or later, leaving, perhaps, only the skeletal remains as long-term proof. They are led to believe that all these phenomena like birth, growth, aging, death, etc., are real just as they are led to believe that a succession of still images projected on a screen at a certain rapid rate, looks like a "motion picture". This erroneous perception may be likened to the concept of māyā in advaita, though, strictly speaking, the two are different.

So we humans dwell all the time under the effect of the said māyā and believe that this universe is all for real; we are unable to even consider the possibility of what we consider as solidly real, being, in truth a phantasm of our senses. Religions and their tenets, preachings, come in handy and buttress this erroneous notion of the people. The atheists take to denying god and religion, but I doubt whether they do so after realizing the above truth.

Death ends one cinema show and what remains thereafter is the screen and nothing else, except the karmas of the character which dies.

But it is next to impossible for humanity to think or reflect beyond its usual limits and the reality of this world, this universe is such a thing that an ordinary mind/intellect has to die in order to realize the folly at the very last moment. The power of māyā is so great!

Dear Sangom ji,

I agree with what you wrote..makes perfect sense.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I am happy to see a new theory. I understand you don't believe in the jivatma theory, But you believe in karma. So why should there be karma? a reaction to an action? Does it not more logically fit with the theory of re-births and experiencing reactions?

 

[sangom]

Dear Shravna, Renuka,

I give the link to a news item in yesterday's The Hindu, below:

New experiment to test the nature of universe - The Hindu

This it looks to me at least, supports my view to a large extent. Since both of you are very good at science (especially Shri Sravna) you may let me know your views also.

As to Sravna's query, viz., "I understand you don't believe in the jivatma theory, But you believe in karma. So why should there be karma? a reaction to an action? Does it not more logically fit with the theory of re-births and experiencing reactions?", it is my view that "rebirth" of the conventional type, explained by the BG verse, वासांसि जीर्णानि यथा विहाय नवानि गृह्णाति नरोऽपराणि ।...etc., is not borne out because memory - even the faintest memory - of the just previous birth itself, is generally not held by any human being; therefore, it may be right to conclude that new births do not "import" any ātmā, jīvātmā, etc., but is a new icon created in order that certain karmaphalas will be experienced by that newly created icon during its sojourn in this world. The Karma theory serves this purpose right. It is relevant to note that Jainism has a view on Karma theory somewhat similar to the above, although Jainism does not (I think) view the world as unreal.

 

[auh]

Maya is not a thing or a veil... it is much like a notion. Perhaps. One that is inherent in the very nature of existence itself. It is the character of the mind.

And karmas are only the aftermath of such notions, affecting anybody and everybody without any specific devolvement. Not a baggage that could be somehow lugged onto the back of the soul or whatever.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shravna, Renuka,

I give the link to a news item in yesterday's The Hindu, below:

New experiment to test the nature of universe - The Hindu

This it looks to me at least, supports my view to a large extent. Since both of you are very good at science (especially Shri Sravna) you may let me know your views also.

As to Sravna's query, viz., "I understand you don't believe in the jivatma theory, But you believe in karma. So why should there be karma? a reaction to an action? Does it not more logically fit with the theory of re-births and experiencing reactions?", it is my view that "rebirth" of the conventional type, explained by the BG verse, वासांसि जीर्णानि यथा विहाय नवानि गृह्णाति नरोऽपराणि ।...etc., is not borne out because memory - even the faintest memory - of the just previous birth itself, is generally not held by any human being; therefore, it may be right to conclude that new births do not "import" any ātmā, jīvātmā, etc., but is a new icon created in order that certain karmaphalas will be experienced by that newly created icon during its sojourn in this world. The Karma theory serves this purpose right. It is relevant to note that Jainism has a view on Karma theory somewhat similar to the above, although Jainism does not (I think) view the world as unreal.

Dear Sangom ji,

Some few weeks back I had started a thread "Vishnu" and Quantum Mechanics".

This is what I wrote:

Originally Posted by renuka
If according to Quantum Mechanics a subatomic particle can exists in more than one place at a given time..so going by that God as in Brahman is beyond time,space,beyond description and subtler than the most subatomic therefore it is of no surprise that God is all pervading!

"Vishnu" means all pervading..there must be a reason for this name..not some random name..QuantumMechanics could have the reason why the terminology "Vishnu" is used.

So may be if mankind were to understand Quantum Mechanics better we might actually get a glimpse of what we call God?

The article New experiment to test the nature of the universe goes one step further by saying this:

Scientists think that the universe’s information may be contained in the same way and that the natural “pixel size” of space is roughly 10 trillion trillion times smaller than an atom, a distance that physicists refer to as the Planck scale.

Quantum theory suggests that it is impossible to know both the exact location and the exact speed of subatomic particles.

Its interesting.


Dear Sangom ji,

Coming to the jeevatama theory I used to hold on to it before but right now I really dont know if I need to hold on to it anymore.

I had also started a thread few weeks back called Soul..There Yet Not There.

This is what I wrote:

Brahma Sutra Bashya says:


1)The individual soul has no origin, because the Upanishads do not mention this because its eternality is known from them and(because of other reasons).

then this line is supported by Taittiriya Upanishad that says "He made Himself by Himself" therefore the individual soul has no origin.


Next

2)The Vedantin says: The individual soul should be a part of God even as a spark is of fire.The individual is a part of only apparent, for the partless Brahman can have no part in the literal sense.



Next

3) The Individual soul is only a reflection of the Supreme Self to be sure.

Commentary: And this has to be understood that this individual soul is a reflection of the Supreme Self like the semblance of the sun in water.
Not that the soul is the Self Itself nor is it something else.



Ok what I would like to discuss here is:

1)So it seems that the individual soul has no origin and is merely a reflection of the Supreme Self that is sort of compartmentalized Supreme Self Reflections like a house of mirrors..that is one man enters a house of mirrors and see countless reflections of himself.

So the Supreme Self here is reflected as the soul in the house of mirrors of Maya and we have the countless Jeevatamas(Souls)



2)So going by this..that means to say that a soul as an individual existence that is divorced from Brahman is not possible cos Brahman is partless.

Only a reflection as many but yet partless is possible.

3)That means that Technically Jeevas are just reflections so it can be said that a Soul on it own has no origin or does not really exists in the real sense.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Let me put things in perspective by saying that the uncertainty factor of quantum theory may have an explanation. In my view it is because everything in the universe is interconnected with everything else. Thus we see the seeming position of an electron in an atom being possible anywhere in the universe is just a consequence of this interconnectedness. We are able to physically verify the probabilistic distribution but in my view erringly attribute it to basic uncertainty at that level.

In fact well in tune with our spiritual teachings we are all one in reality and so interconnected at the macroscopic level also. The rishis who lived millenia back were able to perceive this profound truth. So my conclusion is we should not follow the uncertainty theory to explain things in the universe. On the contrary everything is perfectly synchronized with each other and the world is of the highest order if one is able to perceive this.

The karma theory fits in well with this because the interconnectedness can explain appropriate reactions to actions.

 

[sravna]

it is my view that "rebirth" of the conventional type, explained by the BG verse, वासांसि जीर्णानि यथा विहाय नवानि गृह्णाति नरोऽपराणि ।...etc., is not borne out because memory - even the faintest memory - of the just previous birth itself, is generally not held by any human being; therefore, it may be right to conclude that new births do not "import" any ātmā, jīvātmā, etc., but is a new icon created in order that certain karmaphalas will be experienced by that newly created icon during its sojourn in this world. The Karma theory serves this purpose right. It is relevant to note that Jainism has a view on Karma theory somewhat similar to the above, although Jainism does not (I think) view the world as unreal.

Dear Shri Sangom,

We are not supposed to see through all of space and time. That is the reason we are cloaked by senses. The mind should rise above the level of information provided by the senses and be able to see universal and timeless truths. That I think is the grand design of nature and the reason for not giving access to information in previous births.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

A comment on this specific point in the article you refer:

"Quantum theory suggests that it is impossible to know both the exact location and the exact speed of subatomic particles.


If space comes in 2-D bits with limited information about the precise location of objects, then space itself would fall under the same theory of uncertainty. "

It is my view that the uncertainty mentioned here is not because of the nature of reality but because of the nature of physical measurement. I am not talking about the accuracy of the instruments but the fact that any variable is physically detected by some changes in energy and measuring precisely for a particular set of variables at the same time may not be possible .For example if you want to know the position precisely the tuning of the instrument and measurement will invariably be at odds with one needed to precisely find the momentum and so on for other such pair of variables.

So there is no uncertainty in reality in my opinion.

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom,

Would like to know if you believe in Maya? Because you quiet often refer to Maya to explain things related to human life.

It seems to me that you believe in the term and theorem of Maya, the concept that's been offered by Hinduism.

Having conceived the belief that an ordinary mind/intellect has to die in order to realize the folly of the Universe (as there is nothing real), you are demonstrating the depth of the Hindu Philosophy. So, it is this religion that has given you vast knowledge and related conceptions.

Dear Shri Ravi,

I agree that hindu religion is the basic starting point of all my ponderings; my knowledge of other belief systems, including Buddhism, Jainism, etc., are just superficial. But my thinking process has been driven more by the various contradictions in Hindu religion, rather than by conforming to the religious or philosophical streams of thought in the religion. So, it may not be correct to say that "Having conceived the belief that an ordinary mind/intellect has to die in order to realize the folly of the Universe (as there is nothing real), you are demonstrating the depth of the Hindu Philosophy. So, it is this religion that has given you vast knowledge and related conceptions. " On the contrary, whatever little I have come to conclude, is due to the apparent discrepancies in Hinduism as I could perceive those.

Having said that, I do believe that other religions may not be any better (though I am not an authority on any other religion or its philosophy; and I will say 'Sorry' if this charge is made against me.).

Do you think, an organized religion is the root cause of Disharmony within one self and among fellow humans OR it's the sense of Human Species that has the caliber to be Selfish, Win & Survive to one's satisfaction, what may exist or does not exist?
Don't you think, the religious philosophies of each religion has given a bundle of knowledge, wisdom, directions etc and profess the right way of understanding the purpose of human life. And that, it's only human senses that either ignores it or misinterpret it, leading to disharmony in human survival?

I don't think I said that religion is at the root of disharmony within oneself, though such may be true in isolated cases. But, by and large, all religions have the effect of nurturing sectarian mentality and poisoning the human minds so that each person views with suspicion, other religions and their adherents, and the extent of this suspicion, lack of trust, intolerance, and even open enmity becomes a yardstick to measure one's religiosity within his own religion.

The intrinsic ability to suspect, hate, fight, etc., are human but my submission is that religions do not, by and large, goad their adherents to get rid of these undesirable traits, but, on the contrary, strive to increase them. And, in the very final analysis, all religions are more about controlling material wealth accruing to their places of worship, rather than guiding their folks along the right path. However, it is true that religions do invent a common civil code, sort of, and there could be some beneficial points in those social codes.

I hope I have answered all the points raised in your post.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Sangom,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts in detail.

With what expressed in OP by Renuka and by what you have shared here, I could derive the common point that, Religion has a strong impact on Humans, much negatively as well, as much as positively.

So, the center theme of the thread is to highlight the issues that Religion brings in Human life.

As far as my understanding, perception and acceptance is concerned, pertaining to organized religion, I would relate it with a marriage between a man and a women, as an analogy -

It is similar to a legitimate marital life of two humans as husband & wife, with bonding and common set goals.

As much as benefits, comforts, pleasure and contentment a marriage life gives to humans, equally it poses lots of challenges and demands compromises and adjustments from two humans living together, to make sense of their marriage. And, to maintain harmony among themselves as a family & with all others surrounding them.

Now, the question easily arises - If a marriage institution is into creating a better living OR a a false life of compromises and adjestments?

It all depends on how the couples could take it and make it, no matter either to justify their decisions in life or with one's true sense of pleasure & satisfaction.

Just like this, I believe, Organized Religion is PURE in its essence and humans with their efforts or inborn characteristics can still maintain harmony within one self and among others, no matter which Religion they belong to.

A true humanist can always be at peace within himself/herself & people associated with themselves and can maintain peace, harmony, love, respect etc with others belonging to other religion.

Humans tend to blame some one or something at the drop of a hat, in some way or other and fail to find faults in themselves.

When we see people creating issues/complication to themselves; creating issues to people associated with them, within the family and related people; creating problems with outsiders/strangers belonging to different religion etc, due to fanaticism, selfishness, lack of understanding, superiority complex, ego etc..etc,on the grounds of Religion & Spirituality - We tend to point fingers towards organized religions and find them devastating.

I don't know if I could put forward my thoughts/opinions clearly or not BUT one thing I would like to express clearly is that - "I could not find faults with Organized Religions with its unique and common essence in any way because I am detaching Religions as they are from Humans who live their entire life, associating themselves with a particular religion and tries to complete their journey of life successfully with what they want, how they want, how much they want and why they want and feels satisfied, no matter how correct are they and how wrong are they."

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts in detail.

With what expressed in OP by Renuka and by what you have shared here, I could derive the common point that, Religion has a strong impact on Humans, much negatively as well, as much as positively.

So, the center theme of the thread is to highlight the issues that Religion brings in Human life.

As far as my understanding, perception and acceptance is concerned, pertaining to organized religion, I would relate it with a marriage between a man and a women, as an analogy -

< clipped >

Just like this, I believe, Organized Religion is PURE in its essence and humans with their efforts or inborn characteristics can still maintain harmony within one self and among others, no matter which Religion they belong to.

A true humanist can always be at peace within himself/herself & people associated with themselves and can maintain peace, harmony, love, respect etc with others belonging to other religion.

Humans tend to blame some one or something at the drop of a hat, in some way or other and fail to find faults in themselves.

When we see people creating issues/complication to themselves; creating issues to people associated with them, within the family and related people; creating problems with outsiders/strangers belonging to different religion etc, due to fanaticism, selfishness, lack of understanding, superiority complex, ego etc..etc,on the grounds of Religion & Spirituality - We tend to point fingers towards organized religions and find them devastating.

I don't know if I could put forward my thoughts/opinions clearly or not BUT one thing I would like to express clearly is that - "I could not find faults with Organized Religions with its unique and common essence in any way because I am detaching Religions as they are from Humans who live their entire life, associating themselves with a particular religion and tries to complete their journey of life successfully with what they want, how they want, how much they want and why they want and feels satisfied, no matter how correct are they and how wrong are they."

Dear Shri Ravi,

You have first said "Organized Religion" as if there is only one single or singular Organized Religion, but subsequently used the plural "Organized Religions"; I therefore take it that you are referring to all organized religions.

Now, please consider why these are called "organized", who, how and when such religions were "Organized"? You will find that invariably it is the handiwork of some human beings, and, as with most human endeavours, these religions are neither PURE (in the sense that these religions have no shortcomings or hidden agendas) nor are they perfect.

Take, for example, Hinduism, since both of us are born into this religion and have not converted to another faith. This religion, or set of customs, rituals and beliefs was for - and only for the three elite groups called Dwijas, and the vast majority of humans who inhabited its nascent home of āryāvartta also, possibly, were covered by this religion's tenets only in emphatically denying any role to this majority, in its customs, beliefs and rituals. So, how can this religion be said to be either PURE or perfect, from an unbiased point of view?

The history of hinduism shows that its core tenets have been undergoing changes over time, and, today, we have a situation in which this prescription exclusively for the "twice-born" classes is being administered to one and all who claims to be hindu. Luckily for us, however, almost the entire religious scripture and lore are in Sanskrit which is a nearly dead language and so the common man has no chance to stumble upon the many anti-Shudra dispensations scattered throughout our scriptures and religious lore like the Puranas. Dr. Ambedkar could gauge this and he did whatever he thought was salutary for the downtrodden classes.

The position of other organized religions in this aspect may be different or even slightly better, I can't say. But I read somewhere that even in the US of A, there are separate churches for the African-Americans and that their frequenting the other churches is rare and if done, not relished by the Parish. Even among the Muslims, I understand there are three classes, the ashrafs, the ajlafs, and the arzals.

If one has no preconceived ideas about religion/s, it will be found that there is hardly any religion which does not consciously strive for acquisition of material wealth through the mechanism of Temples or Places of worship. Even the Mesopotamian system depended on similar institutions, it seems. The reason for Mahmud Ghazni attacking the Somnath Temple was also the vast treasures which the Temple had.

Looked whichever way, it is difficult to agree with your view in the last paragraph of your post. I only wish that both of us do not see any ISIS type of war in our place of living, at least during our lifetimes, if not always.

 

[renuka]

Luckily for us, however, almost the entire religious scripture and lore are in Sanskrit which is a nearly dead language and so the common man has no chance to stumble upon the many anti-Shudra dispensations scattered throughout our scriptures and religious lore like the Puranas.

Dear Sangom ji,

This is I have to fully agree with you.After gaining some knowledge in Sanskrit and when I read certain texts I was "OMG".

I started thinking poor all those of us(non dwijas) who know not that what is written about us in some text..yet unknowingly everyone goes to temple to pray..if they only knew? What would happen?

I was reading a story about Swami Ramtheerta (dont know how far its true)..the story goes that Swami Ramtheerta was well received in USA and he thought that if a country like USA which did not have that much religious heritage can appreciate his views he decided that India would be the best place for him to start his philosophy of practical Vedanta which seemed revolutionary for his times.

He was not in favor of the caste system as well.

Then the story goes that he was giving a lecture somewhere in Kashi where a Pandit stood up and asked him if he knew Sanskrit.

The story goes that Ram Theerta did not know Sanskrit at that time but was well versed in Hindi,Urdu and Persian.(but some say he learnt it later)

When he said he did not know Sanskrit the pandit made fun of him and told him "go learn Sanskrit and then lecture us" and the crowd got up and left.

Then it is said that he finally gave up his ochre robes and withdrew himself completely becos he felt he did not want to belong a tradition which emphasizes wordly knowledge instead of wisdom.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom ji,

This is I have to fully agree with you.After gaining some knowledge in Sanskrit and when I read certain texts I was "OMG".

I started thinking poor all those of us(non dwijas) who know not that what is written about us in some text..yet unknowingly everyone goes to temple to pray..if they only knew? What would happen?

I was reading a story about Swami Ramtheerta (dont know how far its true)..the story goes that Swami Ramtheerta was well received in USA and he thought that if a country like USA which did not have that much religious heritage can appreciate his views he decided that India would be the best place for him to start his philosophy of practical Vedanta which seemed revolutionary for his times.

He was not in favor of the caste system as well.

Then the story goes that he was giving a lecture somewhere in Kashi where a Pandit stood up and asked him if he knew Sanskrit.

The story goes that Ram Theerta did not know Sanskrit at that time but was well versed in Hindi,Urdu and Persian.(but some say he learnt it later)

When he said he did not know Sanskrit the pandit made fun of him and told him "go learn Sanskrit and then lecture us" and the crowd got up and left.

Then it is said that he finally gave up his ochre robes and withdrew himself completely becos he felt he did not want to belong a tradition which emphasizes wordly knowledge instead of wisdom.

There is a very similar anecdote about Ramalinga Adigalar (better known as Adikalaar in Tamil land). He belonged to the "Seer Karuneegar" caste (vide the thread (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...ng-between-tamil-brahmin-seer-karuneegar.html) ). Shri Vallalar advocated somewhat against idol worship and recommended the use of a simple flame of light from a lamp (called AruLjOthi) in the sanctum sanctorum. There were no takers, even from his own class, for his preaching. Disappointed, he is reported to have finally said "கடை விரித்தேன், கொள்வாரில்லை,
கட்டிவிட்டேன் அத்தனையும்"
(kaṭai viritteṉ, koḷvārillai,
kaṭṭiviṭṭeṉ attaṉaiyum), meaning "I spread my wares, there were no takers; I have packed up my merchandise completely."

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom ji,

Some few weeks back I had started a thread "Vishnu" and Quantum Mechanics".

This is what I wrote:

< Clipped >

The article New experiment to test the nature of the universe goes one step further by saying

this:

< Clipped >


Its interesting.


Dear Sangom ji,

Coming to the jeevatama theory I used to hold on to it before but right now I really dont know if

I need to hold on to it anymore.

I had also started a thread few weeks back called Soul..There Yet Not There.

This is what I wrote:
< Clipped >

Smt. Renuka,

Our ancient Gurus and Rishis, it must be accepted, had their limitations in expressing what they

considered to be the true nature of this Universe, because material science had not advanced

then, as much as it has, today. We are doubtlessly in a more advantageous position today, 1200

or so years after Adi Shankara's time, to express our views by using concepts and terminologies

from science today.

All that you have said in your above post can be lucidly explained, I believe, by postulating as

follows:

1. There is a Universal Substratum which causes - at the deepest level, something like the Planck scale - everything which we humans experience through our sense organs.

2. This Universal Substratum is probably two-dimensional, as now hypothesized by the Fermilab scientists, but it is capable of giving us the experience of a three-dimensional Space or even four-dimensional universe like the Space-Time.

3. Our ideas of the so-called Reality is only through our sense organs; hence, what we experience as reality is what this Universal Substratum manifesting through the limited aperture of our sense organs, projects to our conscience.

As regards Vishnu being this Universal Substratum, I have my own doubts, because, our Vaishnavite sect and much of their early scriptures were the first to differ from the earlier pūrva mīmāmsā system of beliefs and projected an anthropomorphic god Vishnu which, in turn, may be traced to the earlier Tamil concept of maayan which means கரியவன், திருமால், வஞ்சகன் (kariyavaṉ, tirumāl, vañcakaṉ) ref:m, ????? Tamil Agaraathi, tamil-english dictionary, english words, tamil words.

The black colour and the Godhead as tirumāl seemed to have been exported to the newly coined name of Vishnu, that's all.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

We are not supposed to see through all of space and time. That is the reason we are cloaked by senses. The mind should rise above the level of information provided by the senses and be able to see universal and timeless truths. That I think is the grand design of nature and the reason for not giving access to information in previous births.

Dear Shri Sravna,

In the absence of any (even rudimentary) evidence to support, I am unable to accept, as Gospel Truth, the position that "We are not supposed to see through all of space and time. That is the reason we are cloaked by senses. The mind should rise above the level of information provided by the senses and be able to see universal and timeless truths."

Nature to my knowledge has no desire or design of its own, nor any "mind" as we humans have. This will be evident from the fact that in much of Nature one living thing becomes food for another and the Earth is able to recycle much of the waste products and garbage, with the help of other elements, the plant kingdom, etc.

I believe it is futile to imagine a stage where a human being should be able to rise its mind (and, what exactly is mind, here?) above the level of information provided by the senses and then "see universal and timeless truths" (see with what?); these are good cliches befitting most of the newgen Swamijis and "-Anandas" who take gullible people for a ride and amass wealth, that's all.

What is in the possible realm of human attainment is to reflect calmly and deeply (nididhyāsana or deep contemplation) recommended by Adi Shankara. And I think if we do that in an impartial frame of mind (without any religious hang-over) it will be easier to see through the machinations of religion/s.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

In the absence of any (even rudimentary) evidence to support, I am unable to accept, as Gospel Truth, the position that "We are not supposed to see through all of space and time. That is the reason we are cloaked by senses. The mind should rise above the level of information provided by the senses and be able to see universal and timeless truths."

Nature to my knowledge has no desire or design of its own, nor any "mind" as we humans have. This will be evident from the fact that in much of Nature one living thing becomes food for another and the Earth is able to recycle much of the waste products and garbage, with the help of other elements, the plant kingdom, etc.

I believe it is futile to imagine a stage where a human being should be able to rise its mind (and, what exactly is mind, here?) above the level of information provided by the senses and then "see universal and timeless truths" (see with what?); these are good cliches befitting most of the newgen Swamijis and "-Anandas" who take gullible people for a ride and amass wealth, that's all.

Dear Shri Sangom,

My yardstick for evaluating the truth of something is how appealing it is and in the case of specialized knowledge how appealing it is to the experts in the field. Evidence in the external world is only secondary. It can easily be differently interpreted. I don't understand how your position of physical reality as an illusion is consistent with your need for physical evidence to support something.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Let me put things in perspective by saying that the uncertainty factor of quantum theory may have an explanation. In my view it is because everything in the universe is interconnected with everything else. Thus we see the seeming position of an electron in an atom being possible anywhere in the universe is just a consequence of this interconnectedness. We are able to physically verify the probabilistic distribution but in my view erringly attribute it to basic uncertainty at that level.

In fact well in tune with our spiritual teachings we are all one in reality and so interconnected at the macroscopic level also. The rishis who lived millenia back were able to perceive this profound truth. So my conclusion is we should not follow the uncertainty theory to explain things in the universe. On the contrary everything is perfectly synchronized with each other and the world is of the highest order if one is able to perceive this.

The karma theory fits in well with this because the interconnectedness can explain appropriate reactions to actions.

Dear Shri Sravna,

My knowledge of Quantum Physics is meagre. Yet, I think the Quantum Uncertainty refers to "observations" and not phenomena per se.

The notion that everything in the universe is interconnected is only partly true. I say so because if everything was so interconnected, so many stars and even galaxies have been destroyed and so many countless numbers of human beings, animals, birds, plants, reptiles, etc., have died on the face of this Earth and still, this universe as well as this planet earth seem to go on, business as usual. So, the interconnection, if at all there is, is limited to the period during which anything exists and such interconnection vanishes when anything disappears or gets destroyed. And, even then it will be very difficult to prove that a nuclear bomb explosion on earth which decimates almost the entire humanity and life on earth, will have any impact at all on the nearest galaxy to ours or even within our own galaxy.

Karma theory imho merely answers, logically, the inequalities observed especially among us human beings; it does not go beyond that.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

My yardstick for evaluating the truth of something is how appealing it is and in the case of specialized knowledge how appealing it is to the experts in the field. Evidence in the external world is only secondary. It can easily be differently interpreted. I don't understand how your position of physical reality as an illusion is consistent with your need for physical evidence to support something.

I don't know whether scientists have agreed to the idea that "We are not supposed to see through all of space and time. That is the reason we are cloaked by senses. The mind should rise above the level of information provided by the senses and be able to see universal and timeless truths." If you can furnish some references, it will be educative for me.

Physical evidence is what we can realistically have and such evidence is what has led the scientists to suppose that the universe may be a three-dimensional cover or a four- or even five- dimensional truth. I will say that our mind can deeply contemplate and come to hypotheses but it is through physical & mathematical evidence or the lack of it that science arrives at stronger conclusions.