QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

[pvraman]

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When gangrene sets in we don't apply amrthanjan, we cut the limb and throw it away.

PVR, I am ready to reject colonialism, but you are not ready to reject castesism.


Cheers!

Yes Sir, Thats why we have to cut the christian and islamic thoughts from our land and see that we can find a solution to ourselves.

I am not ready to reject castesism as a whole, and I seek our people to get rid of the contamination namely (superior - inferior feelings) and live the life peacefully.



Regards

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Nara said in his post no.22:
One of the often used debating tactics is to throw up a lot of mud and see whether something sticks. Saidevo seems to be an expert in that technique. Relevancy be damned, just kick up a lot of dust and bamboozle everyone. He perhaps feels triumph if you don’t have the patience to sift through the dust and fret out any relevant points.
*****

In spite of my duly comparing the state of discrimination as obtained in India and the West, clearly stating that in India mainly the governments (and other political/social bodies) have and do exercise controls to check any unfair discrimination, and how the discriminated often take advantage of the system to harass the supposedly discriminating high castes, specially in the government offices,

Nara has chosen to spew venom on my intention of giving examples of racial discrimination in the West as 'throwing up mud' and 'bamboozle everyone'.

As against this emotional attitude of a professedly rational agnostic with vaiShNavism at heart, people who read Nara's posts here and in HDF, know very well that while he comes down heavily on the upper caste, specially the brahmins (he has somewhat softened his attitude against brahmins here, probably after my post in HDF of how brahmins played a key role in Dalits upliftment), and the shAstras for caste and varNa discrimination, he seeks to dismiss lightly such trends in the West where he lives, as part of 'complex life'.

If in India's history of over 5000 years she has not been able to overcome discrimination in caste and varNa, saying that the West in the last 150 years has done it and dismissing the daily recurring incidents of class and racial discrimination in their highly materialistic life as stray incidents--whether this is a scholarly assessment or a silly effort of whitewashing the present, I leave it to the members to ponder.

Nara said in his post no.22:
Let me conclude with this challenge. I condemn all forms of discrimination whether in the west or in India. Now, I invite Saidevo to condemn caste system and the Dharmashasthras that lend it religious credibility.

Nara said in his post no.22:
PVR, I am ready to reject colonialism, but you are not ready to reject castesism.
*****

I can only laugh at such empty challenges. Does your condemning caste and varNa or my supporting it can do anything beyond an academic debate?

A more rational approach for me would be that when racial and class distinction is an integral part of the Western society, why should we condemn or be ashamed of our caste and varNa system, especially because within the framework of our system we can implement the checks and controls we seek, whereas the West with its affiliation towards Christianity, can never do it.

Nara, when you say that Hindu shAstras and the upper castes are the backbone of the caste and varNa distinction in India,

• are you prepared to admit that Christianity is the backbone of the class and race discrimination in the West? If so, why don't you come down on that religion and pinpoint the discriminatory verses in the Bible and their dogma? What do you think of the social conditions obtaining for the minority immigrants in the Muslim countries?

• At least in India we have the checks and controls in the Hindu society, politics and governmental machinary to deal with caste discrimination. What sort of such controls exist in the Western life--do they exist at all? I haven't toured or lived in the West to have a personal knowledge about it, which is why I am asking this question.

For all its ideals of democracy, the US government can pass the Racial Profiling Act and implement it in their multi-ethnic society, in the name of national and moral policing. Can India think of any such Act against the Abrahamic religious minorities and their immigrants living in India?

• When Indians and other immigrants 'by hook or crook' seek 'to be part of their society' and you say that 'sufficient freedoms for immigrants within their own society' are provided in the US, for example, to what extent do the progressive Hindus, for example, mix with them in the social life? Are they being treated on par with the White co-worker in the corporate and business sectors? Do they have the same promotional opportunities, especially in the sectors like Infotech? Are they readily admitted in the White's social gatherings, without any thoughts of religious conversion of pagans?

My impression is that a majority of Indians who live in the US or any other Western country are upper caste people and that they have to live there, purely because of their need for money, due to lack of opportunities in their own country and the undue weight of the unit of Western monetary currency vis-a-vis the Rupee.

• If the entire world has a single currency with the same value everywhere for human and natural resources, most of India's brain drain--and the West's discrminatory practices--could be cut down.

• Will the all-powerful US whose original motto was "E Pluribus Unum--One from many" and who assumes the role of a moral policeman and saviour of the world, initiate it, for all its democratic ideals? If in the last 150 years they have learnt to treat their own race with liberty, equality and fraternity, will they do it in the next 150 years for the other ethnic minorities too?

As PV Raman has admirably put it in his post no.23:

• the Western social, educational, historic, religious, economic, scientific, political (and possibly any other) model only spawns the ugly reality of master and slaves;

• our caste and varNa system seems inimical to us because we think about it with the Western mind.

The greed for money and power are the greatest evils that are treated as virtues in the Western models of life. The Indian model of varNa and caste system has only the spiritual capability behind its purport and deplores worldly desires. In this sense, if not in any other, the system is a more desirable reality than the models of the West.

 

[aramakrishnan1]

I understand that "Caste" means "Kulam" in Thamizh. The various Kulams have grouped people according to their work. A society needs people/communities of all proffessions (or Kulams) to sustain and survive. I want to talk about the current situation instead of debating the past. Almost all the castes have given up their traditional Kula-thozhil (Proffessions of their caste) and the first ones to come out of their duties are the Brahmins. Whatever may be the original caste of the current CM of TN, he has dropped it and taken up a new caste called "Chief Minister caste". All his offsprings have started practising this newly assumed proffession and getting well trained and well versed in it.
Caste based reservations have brought in a revolution where everyone is behind lucrative/ comfortable proffessions and are pursuiing the studies to enter such proffessions. Caste today has only relevance while looking for alliance partners for marriage. If we are to discuss/debate caste and discriminations based on it, then we have to talk about those who practise proffessions according to their original castes(or Kulam). Caste in the current context only is a historical identity and not really practised by any one as per any shastras. The Brahmins are said to be well versed in the Vedas and traditionall transfer such knowledge through their generations for posterity. If this is a definition for Brahmin, then how much percentage of Brahmins are Brahmins.
Saidevo's efforts are really in the positive direction where he is exploring the benefit of a society where the Casteism (Kula THozhil) was practised correctly and how it benefited the all around growth.
All the villages in Chozha Naadu are standing examples where Casteism (as a complete system) was successfully practised and each village built a huge temple, associated tank, nandavanam and seggregated community locations like agraharams. Even though people lived as speparate castes, they set common goals and worked towards them. All those temples where built at a time when there was no KW of electricity and no millilitre of Petrol were available.

 

[aramakrishnan1]

To acheive greater goals, human resource has to be allocated properly to perform different duties. If the 4 varnas were wrong, then why a similar concept is being adopted by the most advanced countries for project execution. The oil rich prosperous gulf nations execute projects in the EP(P)C method. In this method, the project has for main domains of activities viz. Engineering, Project management, Procurement and Construction. Such divisions exactly coincide with the four varnas. "Engineer" does the role of making details of the concept and convert it into paper work for further execution and his role stops at the paper. This Engineer function is similar to the Brahmins.
The Procurement division does all the trading activities and reaches the men and material to the worksite. This Procurement function is similar to that of the Vaishyas.
The COnstruction team utilises the papers produced by the Engineer, the materials provided by the Procurement and performs the installation work. The Construction guy is not responsible for any errors due to wrong design and he has to strictly follow instruction. This function is exactly similar to that of the Shudras.
The Project management co-ordinates, controls, instructs and make to work all the other 3 functions. This is the role of Kshathriyas.
If the segregation of people to 4 varnas was wrong, then why should the most modern project execution follow a similar model.

 

[aramakrishnan1]

Nowadays, the number of Graduate Engineers is growing in very large numbers. The TN government is considering to reduce the minimum percentage of marks to qualify for Engineering studies from the current 55% to 50%. This would encourage more and more people from the rural side to take up engineering studies. I dream to see every Thamizhan becomes a Graduate Engineer.
If this happens, there would be a large number of unemployed graduate engineers or youth would be forced to leave for other countries to look for jobs. Quality of such graduates will also suffer greatly due to dilution of the criteria.
Will there people left to work in the agricultural farms ? Will there be any takers for jobs like hair cutting (in towns and villages), tailoring, Ironing of clothes, housemaids, technicians etc.?
Caste based society would ensure that each proffession has the group/community of people and society will not have voids in certain proffessions.
In future, we may not get enough food due to the collapse of the caste system. Already the signs of this is emerging in the country.

 

[aramakrishnan1]

Instead of deploring, demonising and maligning the caste system, it is better we try to understand the underlying principle and try to accommodate such good concepts for modern living.
The elementary guiding principle is "NO PROFESSION IS SUPERIOR OR INFERIOR TO ANOTHER PROFFESSION". If this is followed, then the Caste system will not be a disgrace to the Hindu society.

 

[Nara]

Folks, you see, in his response Saidevo once again kicks up even more dirt. Instead of responding to what I have written, he talks about me, other web forums, more discrimination in the west and stuff like that. Even if he is right about all of these, which he clearly is not, still, at the end of the day, the criticisms of Varna/caste still remains. Cutting and pasting does not take a lot of effort, I can also cut and paste some of the verses from Dharma Shashthras and other sources. Perhaps that is what I should do and let people really see what Saidevo is defending.

.... As against this emotional attitude of a professedly rational agnostic with vaiShNavism at heart, ....

Once again Saidevo has done what he does best, talk about me as a person. He has no clue about me, about who I am, yet he wants to say what is in my heart.

.... people who read Nara's posts here and in HDF,

Saidevo, why is it so hard for you to stick to the topic. Why do you want to bring my posts from HDF here? Now that you have cited HDF, here is a typical exchange from HDF:

One comment: the best way to learn the practice of Hinduism is to marry a religious Hindu boy or girl.
Response:I hope Indians don't stoop to that level anytime soon. It would be a real travesty to invite Varnasankara into your family. Talk about regression! We are all better of with our own kind.
​

The less we say about HDF the better. It is a nice place for Hindu supremacists to hang out and reminisce about how great we are and how stupid others are. Any counter opinion will be smacked down with personal attacks, I experienced it at the hands of Saidevo and his friends there. If they don't like what you say, they will come after you like a pack of wolves with personal attacks.

.... he seeks to dismiss lightly such trends in the West where he lives, as part of 'complex life'.

This is a product of Saidevo's fertile imagination. Human suffering deliberately caused by other humans in the name of race or caste or any other human construct can never be excused as just part of complexity of life. I never said that. Saidevo, show me where I said that? Don't just make things up, that makes you look like a dishonest person.

I can only laugh at such empty challenges. Does your condemning caste and varNa or my supporting it can do anything beyond an academic debate?

This shows where you stand. Even in an academic setting where it costs nothing you can only laugh, but can't bring yourself to condemning caste and varna.

A more rational approach for me would be that when racial and class distinction is an integral part of the Western society, why should we condemn or be ashamed of our caste and varNa system,

Just imagine who in the west would say, "why should we condemn or be ashamed of our racism"? Even in India, not many would openly say, "why should we condemn or be ashamed of our caste and varNa system". That is the difference between people like Saidevo and people of reason.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

caste is a permanent fixture of India.Race is a permanent fixture in USA.Both countries deal with it in a dignified manner.People like Nara,live in a utopian world of academics.They can teach stuff,practically a zombie,with their views.It's nice though Nara,stands his ground well,and does put a wonderful argument cogently.Now i really see,what raghy was writing about you,keep it coming prof .

 

[aramakrishnan1]

This is what an enlightened soul (anonymous) said to me about the whole Caste System and Varnashrama :

There is nothing wrong in the Varnashram. It was a highly civilised society uncomrpehensible even to all the scientist heads in the world put together and entire humanity today is so rotten that no matter what they did or do they could not understand it, let alone achieve that past glory once again. Thats why God would come - to lend them a helping hand and to lend them that which they lack - purity and life in life.

We had four classes: Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. It is well known in genetic engineering today the genes of your father and forefathers and generations before you decide who you are today. This system maintained the purity and super-specialisation and genetic excellence from generation to generation - genes were not only passed on for a certain activity but were improved upon by trial, error, practice and perfection. Even today, we know that a man from an intellectual lineage does not have the animal instincts to fight like one who is from a warrior lineage, and an intellectual (academician, theorist, philosopher) or a warrior does not have the aptitude and the finesse to be excellent in business matters - something still a little bit observed in our "Baniyaa" community - which is anyways now corrupt - similarly these 3 castes would neither have the inclination or the finesse or the craftsmanship in their genes or training to make them excellent sculptors, builders, architects, ironsmiths, goldsmiths, scanvengers etc. It was not only the most efficient way as per genetics but also as per training and schooling - there was no need for spending tonnes of money to try to train square blocks to become round or round ones to become square - sons were trained from fathers and they grew up in that environment, in that surrounding not only physically trained to excel in those areas but also psychologically groomed and oriented right from childhood living, working and growing up in those highly specialised environments to which they were committed from birth. There is no scientist in the world today who can refute these arguments, no sociologist or historian who will dare say no to this logic. It is self containing - u dont need to go anywhere to comprehend and accept its veracity and flawlessness - as everything - this is also common sense and if u apply ur highly intelligent brain, ur very open heart and ur distinctly pious soul, u could have got this answer urself - and u could have defeated the best of the best on it - our scriptures, philosophy and science is incomprehensible and far outweighs those of dorks - so if u think a little bit, u will find enough reasons to back it up in front of any body - it just needs some thinking and some common sense - thats all - no rocket science here, is it?

As far as Abrahamic religions - every religion other than Hinduism has a history of not more than 4000 years from now - every religion - every major civilisation - romans, greeks, egyptians etc. arose from hinduism and india only in kalyug which started 5000 years ago. they have no idea, no history, no conception whatsoever of the previous yugas which add up to billions of years (unfortunately kalyug turned out to be of only around 5000 years, since the end is very near - within our life-times) - which is the scientifically accurate age of the universe as per science as well which mocks the old testament of the bible which dates creation of the universe not more than 4000 years back - old testament is full of bull-shit stories - major distortions of hindu history - noah's ark is distorted version of matsya-avatar, adam and eve is an allegory n metaphor for shiva-parvati, jacob wrestling god is the same as arjun fighting with lord shiva when shiva came to test him when arjun was performing penance, the more u read - the more crap u will find that relates to stories in hinduism. in kalyug, people migrated from india to other parts of the world - mainly to middle east etc. and they were known as greeks, romans, egyptians etc... their gods were a distorted version of hindu gods (or "devtaas") and not Gods for God is ONLY ONE in every religion. later on, it became out of control as people had no idea what they were worshipping, doing etc... totaly chaos, so Moses was sent to give the message to people that there is only One True God, (The Paramathma), and they should not worship any other god or gods other than the true GOD... to put an end to the shit that was happening. But Moses was sent to civlise barbarians - his religion - then that of Jesus and Mohammed was to civilise barbarians - the preachings were simple - love thy neighbour etc...etc... and not complex because those uncivilised had no means to comprehend complex truths. Then these idiots who had no history, and despite all the messengers still remained barbarians, started pointing fingers at India - calling Indians barbarians cause they worshipped many gods, had many rituals etc...etc... they were crazy people, they are still crazy people and God will show them how crazy they are. ok? they had no caste system, class system, but they had nothing to their credit - no civilisation, no science, no arts, no weaponry, no philosophies, no scriptures - their bible - u must read - old testament is like a book written by kindergarten kids - no grammars - no authentic sources of quotations or stupid crazy fantasy stories - no idea of what was history and what is mean to be an allegory or metaphor - u will laugh if u read the old testament - it is a cobble up piece of many pieces of crap put together - and imagine that can be taken as a holy book of the perfect God - their new testatment is authenticated by history well and has the story of Jesus Christ and his teachings which make sense and are authentic because it is a recent event - other than the new testament - which is pretty basic - as in "love thy neighbour" - simple philosophy n simple religion for idiots to understand - even which they did not and they started to kill jews to convert them to christianity when jesus christ had set an example to them to lay down their lives for love....some accounts of recent figures like moses etc... all is total total total trast and should be flushed down the shit pot!!!! thats what they are! ok?

now tell me - if any scientist, any religious leader, any smart guy in the world can challenge me on the above? the truth is the truth and the fact is the fact and even a small kid would have the intelligence to say that this is the truth, ok?

 

[kumarxx]

Change and adoptation,is a fact of life and our own Puranas illustratethis-see the
Avatars. If we cultivate attitudes that do not inflict injury on others particularlyin social relationships , then our society will benefit enormously and many ills which we4 see today will automatically disappear, including CASTE.

 

[saidevo]

Sickening Nara, your approach in a discussion!

You can say with spite, "Saidevo seems to be an expert in that technique" of mudslinging to "bamboozle everyone" and I should not take it as a personal reference, and yet when I say that such attitude of yours is an "emotional attitude of a professedly rational agnostic with vaiShNavism at heart" is a personal reference, eh?

I don't think that stating that you are a professor or an agnostic or a vaiShNavite at heart are personal references for the simple reason that is how you have referred to yourself in your posts. Whereas stating that I am an 'expert in kicking up dirt to bamboozle everyone' is more of a personal reference, although I don't mind it, since I can't expect anything better from you.

If my talking about class and race discrimination in the Western society vis-a-vis the caste and varNa discrmination in India is mudslinging, what about your persistent, and illogical references to the shAstras and brahmins as the reasons behind it? Why should you be uneasy when the evils of the egalitarian society in the West are highlighted, when you seek to do the same with our caste system?

*****

Let us quote you again (emphasis added):

"Hello PVR, Let us say you are right, our old system was superior to the European system of masters and slaves, what is the status now? More than 150 years ago the Europeans have thrown out the masters and freed themselves. Today, you are unlikely to see anything resembling this in Europe. I am not saying Europe is great, far from it. Life is complex. All societies have their own warts. It is up to us to face ours honestly and make amends, instead of blaming others."

Commenting on the underlined portion of the above quote, why should we not blame others for their social evils, especially when they blame us for ours, and when they don't face their evils honestly and make amends, while we do it at all possible levels?

The point is that in India, policies of Dalit upliftment are implemented vigorously whereas in the US, the corridors of power often turn out to be dead ends for the victims of their social evils of class and race discrimination. It is in this context that I said that you seek to dismiss lightly the racial trends as part of complex life. If this is making things up and you consider me dishonest, well, it is up to you.

"This shows where you stand. Even in an academic setting where it costs nothing you can only laugh, but can't bring yourself to condemning caste and varna."

Why should everyone condemn caste and varNa, and those who don't be considered as people with no reason? In fact, in this thread, most people have spoken in support/reconciliation of the caste system, so they are all people with no reason in your logic?

In your own view of varNa as only by birth, you said that both Shankara and RAmAnuja quoted the Manu SmRti injunctions that shUdras should not be taught Vedas, a practice that continues to this date. I would rather subscribe to the views of sages like KAnchi ParamAchArya who supported the caste and varNa system, than to the views of you and your friends, call me what you may, at the risk of exposing your own attitudes of tolerance. At the same time, I do hold the view of peaceful co-existence with mutual respect for the people under the caste system.

 

[Nara]

Sickening Nara, your approach in a discussion!

Finally, now you see it don't you. This is how personal comments feel, sickening. As long as you were doling it, it never made any impact upon you did it? When I pay you back in your coin, you feel the sting, it is sickening.

I will make a deal with you, stop making personal comments and stick to the points being discussed, we will have no problem.

Cheers!

 

[saidevo]

namaste Ramakrishnan.

You have nicely portrayed the practical side of how varNa and caste masquerade in the modern industry and economy.

You said in your post 30:
If this happens, there would be a large number of unemployed graduate engineers or youth would be forced to leave for other countries to look for jobs. Quality of such graduates will also suffer greatly due to dilution of the criteria.

Will there people left to work in the agricultural farms? Will there be any takers for jobs like hair cutting (in towns and villages), tailoring, Ironing of clothes, housemaids, technicians etc.?
=====

A friend of mine learnt from a reliable source of his that the DMK is giving Rs.50/- per day in some villages to every youth who is not regularly employed. These youths eat and drink with that money, waste time playing cards in the temple verandahs, and refuse to go for agricultural work (after tasting this jolly life); the poor elders of the villages find it difficult to employ labour to cultivate and harvest their lands. Many of our cereals are already being imported from countries like Myanmar and Canada.

With the exodus of our village youth to urban areas taking place, our scheming politicians will be ready to move in with machines to do the menial work, entrust the contract to their chosen people and reap the money that is cut to them. The poor consumers and farmers will have no option but to submit to political machinary and the multinational firms like Enron.

Gandhiji advocated for burning the videshi clothes and spurning videshi goods in his time. Today the videshis are fast taking over, killing the svadeshi industries and skills, and the politicians and rationalists are happy of having accomplishing their goal of abolition of castes.

 

[Nara]

.....The elementary guiding principle is "NO PROFESSION IS SUPERIOR OR INFERIOR TO ANOTHER PROFFESSION". If this is followed, then the Caste system will not be a disgrace to the Hindu society.

Dear aramakrishnan1:

All professions can never be seen as equal. A thotti may perform his job with detached equanimity, but nobody will willingly pursue Thotti profession as a career goal.

Even if all professions are considered equal, we still have a problem with caste system, because caste forces people into professions. A thotti's son is forced into Thotti profession even if he wants to be a barber, or a carpenter.

Also, I don't think we need to worry about who will do the other jobs if everyone becomes an Engineer. The law of supply and demand will redistribute the resources to benefit everyone.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

aram1,

i missed this gem. after being saluted to by saidevo for your ditty, i was perforce to peruse it.

sir, hats off to you for providing me with a bellyfull of laughs. i have aches in my stomach and bruises in my knee as i fell laughing.

surely, you jest in this post, don't you? i like your type of black humour, for in many a way, i would have mused along the lines of your post, and wondered what type of responses i would get.

it is somewhat similar to another game that i play - start a rumour in the office, and wait to see how quickly it comes back to you. and in what form. surely, the irony of this article has not been missed by you, i am sure, though i am not so sure about saidevo. maybe sai can clarify?

hilarious to the hilt thank you.

This is what an enlightened soul (anonymous) said to me about the whole Caste System and Varnashrama :

There is nothing wrong in the Varnashram. It was a highly civilised society uncomrpehensible even to all the scientist heads in the world put together and entire humanity today is so rotten that no matter what they did or do they could not understand it, let alone achieve that past glory once again. Thats why God would come - to lend them a helping hand and to lend them that which they lack - purity and life in life.

We had four classes: Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. It is well known in genetic engineering today the genes of your father and forefathers and generations before you decide who you are today. This system maintained the purity and super-specialisation and genetic excellence from generation to generation - genes were not only passed on for a certain activity but were improved upon by trial, error, practice and perfection. Even today, we know that a man from an intellectual lineage does not have the animal instincts to fight like one who is from a warrior lineage, and an intellectual (academician, theorist, philosopher) or a warrior does not have the aptitude and the finesse to be excellent in business matters - something still a little bit observed in our "Baniyaa" community - which is anyways now corrupt - similarly these 3 castes would neither have the inclination or the finesse or the craftsmanship in their genes or training to make them excellent sculptors, builders, architects, ironsmiths, goldsmiths, scanvengers etc. It was not only the most efficient way as per genetics but also as per training and schooling - there was no need for spending tonnes of money to try to train square blocks to become round or round ones to become square - sons were trained from fathers and they grew up in that environment, in that surrounding not only physically trained to excel in those areas but also psychologically groomed and oriented right from childhood living, working and growing up in those highly specialised environments to which they were committed from birth. There is no scientist in the world today who can refute these arguments, no sociologist or historian who will dare say no to this logic. It is self containing - u dont need to go anywhere to comprehend and accept its veracity and flawlessness - as everything - this is also common sense and if u apply ur highly intelligent brain, ur very open heart and ur distinctly pious soul, u could have got this answer urself - and u could have defeated the best of the best on it - our scriptures, philosophy and science is incomprehensible and far outweighs those of dorks - so if u think a little bit, u will find enough reasons to back it up in front of any body - it just needs some thinking and some common sense - thats all - no rocket science here, is it?

As far as Abrahamic religions - every religion other than Hinduism has a history of not more than 4000 years from now - every religion - every major civilisation - romans, greeks, egyptians etc. arose from hinduism and india only in kalyug which started 5000 years ago. they have no idea, no history, no conception whatsoever of the previous yugas which add up to billions of years (unfortunately kalyug turned out to be of only around 5000 years, since the end is very near - within our life-times) - which is the scientifically accurate age of the universe as per science as well which mocks the old testament of the bible which dates creation of the universe not more than 4000 years back - old testament is full of bull-shit stories - major distortions of hindu history - noah's ark is distorted version of matsya-avatar, adam and eve is an allegory n metaphor for shiva-parvati, jacob wrestling god is the same as arjun fighting with lord shiva when shiva came to test him when arjun was performing penance, the more u read - the more crap u will find that relates to stories in hinduism. in kalyug, people migrated from india to other parts of the world - mainly to middle east etc. and they were known as greeks, romans, egyptians etc... their gods were a distorted version of hindu gods (or "devtaas") and not Gods for God is ONLY ONE in every religion. later on, it became out of control as people had no idea what they were worshipping, doing etc... totaly chaos, so Moses was sent to give the message to people that there is only One True God, (The Paramathma), and they should not worship any other god or gods other than the true GOD... to put an end to the shit that was happening. But Moses was sent to civlise barbarians - his religion - then that of Jesus and Mohammed was to civilise barbarians - the preachings were simple - love thy neighbour etc...etc... and not complex because those uncivilised had no means to comprehend complex truths. Then these idiots who had no history, and despite all the messengers still remained barbarians, started pointing fingers at India - calling Indians barbarians cause they worshipped many gods, had many rituals etc...etc... they were crazy people, they are still crazy people and God will show them how crazy they are. ok? they had no caste system, class system, but they had nothing to their credit - no civilisation, no science, no arts, no weaponry, no philosophies, no scriptures - their bible - u must read - old testament is like a book written by kindergarten kids - no grammars - no authentic sources of quotations or stupid crazy fantasy stories - no idea of what was history and what is mean to be an allegory or metaphor - u will laugh if u read the old testament - it is a cobble up piece of many pieces of crap put together - and imagine that can be taken as a holy book of the perfect God - their new testatment is authenticated by history well and has the story of Jesus Christ and his teachings which make sense and are authentic because it is a recent event - other than the new testament - which is pretty basic - as in "love thy neighbour" - simple philosophy n simple religion for idiots to understand - even which they did not and they started to kill jews to convert them to christianity when jesus christ had set an example to them to lay down their lives for love....some accounts of recent figures like moses etc... all is total total total trast and should be flushed down the shit pot!!!! thats what they are! ok?

now tell me - if any scientist, any religious leader, any smart guy in the world can challenge me on the above? the truth is the truth and the fact is the fact and even a small kid would have the intelligence to say that this is the truth, ok?

 

[saidevo]

namaste.

i missed this gem. after being saluted to by saidevo for your ditty, i was perforce to peruse it.

You know well that I did not 'salute' him for the post you have quoted--only for his posts 29 and 30. In fact I read the quoted post only after seeing your post 40. As to what I think about the article, I believe every word of it is true!--why should I spoil your hilarious mood?

Also, I don't think we need to worry about who will do the other jobs if everyone becomes an Engineer. The law of supply and demand will redistribute the resources to benefit everyone.

The law of supply and demand is only a man-made law, so it is not infallible. If this law be true, currently we have a great demand for rice, cereals, oils and vegetables whose prices are skyrocketting, so there must be such an abundant supply of them that their prices come down.

Maintenance of the public drainage system and garbage collection is already in doldrums, although there is more than enough staff in the government agencies, because the staff are less and less interested in doing their duty although they are paid reasonably, the government is interested only in paying their staff who constitute a sizeable vote bank for the ruling party, and the ruling party people in turn are interested in getting things worse so it can employ the private sector and harvest their commission. There is no law of supply and demand so far as the services sector is concerned.

 

[kunjuppu]

namaste.



You know well that I did not 'salute' him for the post you have quoted--only for his posts 29 and 30. In fact I read the quoted post only after seeing your post 40. As to what I think about the article, I believe every word of it is true!--why should I spoil your hilarious mood?



.

sai,

how could i know that, because you did not refer to the posts in the initial greeting, and only referred to post #30 after that.

to me it appears that on the basis of the context of your initial sentence, that you are indeed applauding aram1, which you have further confirmed .

just to compare, in the spiritual frauds' thread, post #412, sapthjihva who has views very similar to your re tradition, i think, has laughed outright at what he saw was some of the antics of puttaparthi.

of late i have been a non participant re fraudulent saamiyaars, but cannot appreciate the ability of the devoted, to see through charlatans.

in a similar manner, aram1's excerpt of something he saw somewhere, is a play on one's idiocy. perhaps you have not heard the radio peking's hysterical condemnation of the 'american imperialists' till the 1990s?

aram1's pasting, is not much unlike that. please read it again carefully. there is no substantiatiion of anything, except hatred, to the point of ridiculousness.

clearly, to me the guy who wrote this is a comic of the first sort, intend on having some fun with the imbeciles who cry out 'my religion right or wrong'. agreed that there are more of them in indian christianity and even more in indian/international islam.

but all along, it has the general assumption, that we tamil brahmins, will not fall prey to the rhetoric of mouth frothing body shaking fowlery of other religions, while at the same time, claiming the 'kailasa on earth' for our own. neither of which is true.

hope i am clear here.

 

[saidevo]

namaste kunjuppu.

how could i know that, because you did not refer to the posts in the initial greeting, and only referred to post #30 after that.

to me it appears that on the basis of the context of your initial sentence, that you are indeed applauding aram1, which you have further confirmed .

Let me remind you again of the initial sentence in my post no.38:
"You have nicely portrayed the practical side of how varNa and caste masquerade in the modern industry and economy."

Does the article shrI Ramakrishnan quoted in his post 34 have any reference to 'modern industry and economy'?

You also seem to miss (perhaps deliberately) the irony implied in my following sentence in post 41:

"As to what I think about the article, I believe every word of it is true!--why should I spoil your hilarious mood?"

which is perhaps why you say that I have 'further confirmed' my blind approval of the contents of the article, after provoking me for my view in your post no.40 with your words, "i am not so sure about saidevo. maybe sai can clarify?" If you still think that I am not capable of the appreciating the 'play of idiocy' in the article in question, well I have nothing more to add.

As to your reference about Baba, I have only this to tell you: "My faith in Baba, ParamAchArya, RamaNa and other sages is personal and not subject to anyone's scrutiny. Nor do I need to give any explanation about others' personal views on these sages."

 

[pvraman]

Dear Folks,

No castes have caste jobs for the caste members except willingly taken and not forced. (we definitely dont take stray happenings).

Who do not want their caste identity? and what is the harm in the caste identity?

Lets not include here Dalits because, we are discussing about the caste system and dalits are out of caste system. How the dalits became outcasts and how to bring them into caste system - requires impartial study, which shall be done in a separate thread.

Regards

 

[Nara]

.....No castes have caste jobs for the caste members except willingly taken and not forced. (we definitely dont take stray happenings).

Dear PVR, to a large extent what we are doing here is a sort of a "postmortem" of a Frankenstein that is still alive, kept on life support by our politicians. We can only speculate how it all started and how a four fold varna system ballooned into 4000 castes.

But one thing is clear, under the caste system, a son of Thotti has to be a Thotti, like it or not. A son of a Dhobi has to be a Dhobi, even if he is no good at it, or does not want to be one. It is hierarchical, some superior and others inferior. These aspects of caste do cause harm.

You say you don't want to include Dalits because they are outside the caste system. This would be reasonable if they exist independent of the caste system, but they don't. They are an integral part of the caste system. Their social status is inseparably connected to the caste hierarchy. Not including Dalits in a discussion of caste is like not including odd numbers in a discussion of arithmetic.

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

But one thing is clear, under the caste system, a son of Thotti has to be a Thotti, like it or not. A son of a Dhobi has to be a Dhobi, even if he is no good at it, or does not want to be one.

Yes, there is social coercion and this is a bad aspect of caste no doubt. Social coercion however is hardly limited to caste and it exists in every society in different degrees even today.

It is hierarchical, some superior and others inferior. These aspects of caste do cause harm.

Hierarchical systems again exist in all societies in almost all walks of life. Humans have not been able to get out of its grip.

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

But one thing is clear, under the caste system, a son of Thotti has to be a Thotti, like it or not. A son of a Dhobi has to be a Dhobi, even if he is no good at it, or does not want to be one.

Yes, there is social coercion and this is a bad aspect of caste no doubt. Social coercion however is hardly limited to caste and it exists in every society in different degrees even today.

There used to be a saying among brahmins during the times of British rule: "Call me thoTTi, pay me forty." The thoTTis today are mostly government servants and are reasonably well paid, compared to the brahmin archakas in HR&CE temples in the rural areas. And neither of the two jobs is inferior in the eyes of God.

As for a thoTTi's son becoming only a thoTTi, as Iyest says, there is no social coercion today; it is only decided by his family circumstances, which also decides the case of the son of a poor archaka remaining insufficiently educated to get another decently paid job.

In the heat of hatred against the non-existent brahmin domination today, we easily submit to the lies of propaganda that has been going on in Tamilnadu for nearly 70 years now, without having our own impartial and logical assessment of the caste and varNa system that sages like KAnchi ParamAchArya want us to have. For example, ParamAchArya says in his lecturers on Shankara charitam:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/philos...position-kanchi-paramacharya-3.html#post43715

"If this subject is done Alochanam of--considered, Ara amara--(Tamil) in leisurely settlement of thoughts, in naDunilai--(Tamil) impartiality, the kAraNam--reason, would be known as the varnAshrama vibhAgam--occupational classification, which is present only in this civilization."

It is hierarchical, some superior and others inferior. These aspects of caste do cause harm.

You say you don't want to include Dalits because they are outside the caste system. This would be reasonable if they exist independent of the caste system, but they don't. They are an integral part of the caste system.

As Iyest has rightly said, "Hierarchical systems again exist in all societies in almost all walks of life." There is no difference between such hierarchical systems and the caste system in terms of social status, income, or treatment.

The class IV employees (comprising peons, attenders, messengers, drivers and so on) in the offices of the private and public sector business and service institutions are practically the equivalent of outcastes. They don't participate in the official business/work/decision-making. Their prospects up the ladder are purely due to their own efforts (specially in the private sector), although there is some sort of seniority hierarchy in the government jobs.

Again there are differences of social status, opportunities and affordability in life between the class IV employees in different business/service enterprises, even as there are differences between Dalits depending on their village/urban/city location, occupation, and political affiliations.

Yet, in all sorts of hierarchical business and service systems in modern life, workers of the different classes and ranks by and large co-exist peacefully, and there is no hue and cry from the polticians and intellectuals about any perceived injustice in the system.

The caste and varNa system is no different, where the differentiation in hierarchy is designed to be purely on the levels of svadharma and the efforts of Atma-sAdhana.

 

[sapthajihva]

Karma, Varna, Dharma...

The premise has to be understood, before we begin to understand the logic.

Perhaps, one needs to understand why Bharatham, the home of a highly civilized people, had a system called varna dharmam.

If at all the civilization was so glorious, why then, did we not invent those scientific marvels that we so much adore and cherish today... when Mathematics, Medicine, Engineering, Administration, Agriculture, Astronomy etc were all well researched into.

Why did we persist in following a system which was/is called as abominable, exploitative and unequal? Why do some do it even now?

Ha! The answer is ever so simple - oppression through suppression by invoking divinity in it...

This is, indeed, a good answer, and perhaps may even be right... if we believe that life is just an accident! But is it so...?

 

[kunjuppu]

there are the rigid boundaries between the two factions - saptha, sai, iyest et al one side. to them, the varna system, as i understand their arguements was a good system, and it was corrupted by the british. ie we were good, but others made us bad.

then there is nara, raghy, and to some extent me, who, broadly speaking, feel that the varna system, though i do not know the antecedents, and familiar with the end product, was essentially evil as it progressed, and laid waste to several generations of our fellow hindus, in more ways than one.

personally i think the truth is somewhere inbetween. and maybe not.

but here is a challenge:

for nara, raghy: to enunciate what good they found in the caste system

for saptha, sai and iyest, to be your own devil's advocate and come out with the evils of caste system.

if both groups would venture out of their fences, and probe into the psyche of the other, perhaps we could all come to meeting points and shake hands.

or is this wishful thinking on my part?

 

[Nara]

....There used to be a saying among brahmins during the times of British rule: "Call me thoTTi, pay me forty."

If this true it shows how unprincipled these Brahmins were. For money they were ready to be called thotti, but will not abandon the caste system on any account. This may have been said in jest, but it does reveal an underlying truth. Even when they were not called thotti, but were called collectors and secretaries, they were still taking orders from beef eating mlechchas, because they were getting paid. There is nothing wrong with that, but maintaining caste superiority at the same time is not very principled.

Thottis are government servants and are getting paid reasonable salaries, no thanks to the caste system. They provide an essential service, do it with dignity, and they earn every paise. If the government was following the caste system they will be forced to do the job in exchange for scraps and living outside the city in cheris. In the eyes of god thotti job may be equal to that of archakas, but not so in the eyes of his Bhakthas, and god prefers to turn a blind eye to this travesty.

Yes, there is no coercion today, a Brahmin can actually be a Thotti, and not just be called a Thotti. But, if orthodox Brahminism is the ruling reality, the caste system will be the order and there will be coercion. Thanks to the basic decency of average people of all kinds, TBs and NBs alike, that is not the case. Dispassionate reflection in the privacy of one's conscience will make this self evident. Blaming others of propaganda or hate will only perpetuate the fantasy that caste system was a wonderful thing.

... "Hierarchical systems again exist in all societies in almost all walks of life." There is no difference between such hierarchical systems and the caste system in terms of social status, income, or treatment.

Oh, they do it in the west also is an often repeated excuse. First and foremost, is that the ideal for us, the ways and practices of beef eating mlechchas? There is so much consternation about our youngsters aping the west, and the mature grownups now want to compare their practices to that of the west.

Next, I don't think it will sit well with anyone here if I say it is alright for me to beat my wife because many of my neighbors do so as well.

Third, the claim that caste system is no different from the hierarchical systems that exist in other societies is utterly false. Only in caste system the layers of hierarchy are more or less rigid, with shifts occurring only as a group, not based on the "worth" of an individual, and that too by pushing some other group down.

Fourth, comparing the hierarchy of caste system to that of the business and corporate world is absurd. While nepotism and corruption may be prevalent to varying degrees, the hierarchy is (i) not birth based (ii) people move from one layer to the next based on merit and experience, and (iii) there is no coercion, people are free to leave for better opportunities at any time, etc.

Fifth, if these coporations were to follow a caste system type hierarchy, then, not only can class IV employees never rise above that rank, but their sons can never be anything other than class IV employees, and their daughters can be nothing more than domestic servants for all class III and above.

Svadarma and athma sadhana are obfuscations. It exists only on paper to convince ourselves of our fantasies. To do athma sadhana, whatever that is, we don't need caste system.

Cheers!