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RAgam, ThAnam, Pallavi - fascinating facts!


Dear Sandhya,

The choir does not have much to do with R T P style. Most of the Western music has SankarAbharaNam

as base but this choir is set to KeeravANi and Natabhairavi towards the end. Singers take different pitches

simultaneously and sing unlike in Carnatic music where the pitch shifts ONLY during Sruthi bEdham. Towards

the end the individuals take higher pitches and rather shout!

This choir is set to Chathusra Ekam in Thisra Gathi 'tha ki ta' ( i.e) Four beats with three counts each! ;)

Atlanta West Pentecostal Church Choir -How Sweet the Sound Finale
 
Dear RRji,

The base doesn't have to be Sankarabaranam in western music. It is normally a major scale or a minor scale. It just happens that C-major scale happens to coincide with the notes of sankarabaranam.

K. Kumar
 

Dear Kumar Sir,

I have heard even Dharmavathi rAgam in a composition of Yanni!

Generally most of the compositions are in SankarAbharaNam and that is what I meant.

Thanks for your comment. :)

Here is one of my favorite songs in SankarAbharaNam!

 The sound of music - Do Re Mi Fa
 
Last edited:
Dear RRji,

Some more comments. The piece by Yanni is probably set to a minor scale. They correspond to the notes of Natabhairavi, just like major scales correspond to Sankarabaranam. Depending on whether the piece is set to a major or minor scale we will hear Sankarabaranam/Natabhairavi. Depending on how we interpret their note fluctuation, I think we mentally map it to one of our 10/14 gamakams and we hear other ragams.

Generally their pentatonic scales will correspond to our Mohanam. If they do something exotic like use arabic scales then we will get corresponding equivalents of ragas that are not permitted in our system. We could theoretically get ragas with both the 'Ma's. Then we have to be experts in all the ragams created by S. Kalyanaraman (ragas like kanakasri, ratnasri etc) where he replaced the 'pa' with prati madyamam :-)

I am quite sure you will agree that Carnatic music is a "கரை காண முடியாத கடல்". Great people like Lalgudi say that in one life time you just get to dip your toes in this vast ocean.

Please continue with your write ups. I find them enjoyable and informative.

K. Kumar
 

Dear Kumar Sir,

Thanks for your feed back. I hope you might have seen the posts on Sruthi bEdham and read the formula

'San Kara ThOdi Kal Hari Nata'. I have NOT studied Western music but when I hear the swarams used, I find

out in which rAgam it is based on! Of course, some times 'anniya swaram' appears, in Carnatic language!

Let me share and interesting episode:

A kutty fellow aged about 6 came with his keyboard to learn some geethams from me. He had a few tunes

which were already set as 'sample music' in that instrument. I told him that we can notate ANY song with

the seven swarams with the 'chinna' / 'periya' variation and he did not believe me - 21st century kid, right?

He played a tune and wanted me to write down the notation. I did. He played it on his keyboard and said,

'WOW! What you say is TRUE!!' :D (This kid is from CA who came for his vacation to Sing. Chennai)

P.S:

1. My son has very good swara gnAnam and when he was at school, his friends used to get the notation

for the cinema songs from him to play in school programs.

2. In a music books store, I saw a book with notations for many popular cinema songs. :cool:
 
Dear RRji,

I did not learn any music in my younger years. Whatever little I know is pure கேள்வி ஞானம் only. When I started identifying ragams I wanted to know how and why I can differentiate between say a Sankarabaranam and Kalyani or between Arabhi and Devagandhari. So when I was around 53 I sought a music teacher here in CA and started learning music, starting from the basics with the idea of quantifying my process. I learned from her till my grandson was born. I had to stop because I was taking care of him while my daughter, son-in-law and wife went to work from the time he was 3 months old. Now he is four and half. He has the swara gyanam like your son. He learns carnatic music, and when the teacher taught him "syamale meenakshi" he would sing " S R G M P, P, D N S. SNDP M G". Mind you he can't hear in his left ear.

I was told that when GNB heard a song the swarams would flash in his mind as he was listening to it. No wonder he was able to produce divine music.

Anyway enough of my rambling.

K. Kumar
 

Dear Kumar Sir,

Swara gnAnam is bestowed on some people (comes in blood, if I could say so!) and those who do not have it

should strive hard to achieve it. In our family, three out of four sisters are bestowed with this and I am very

happy to share it here! Many years back, when I was humming the tune of 'Brahma Murari surarchita Lingam',

my two and half years old son sang the swarams and my younger sister noticed it. Only then I knew that he

has swara gnAnam. When our Guru Dr. S. Ramanathan wanted to test swara gnAnam, he will ask all others to

answer, except me and Ms. S. Sowmya, who was in her early teens then! :)
 
Dear All,

I just joined here and was following the post... And after 7 pages I shifted to the last and what I am finding notations for songs? And Swaragnana? For me who is not that much well versed in Carnatic with only KelviGnana Swaragnana is a difficult to understand concept . I know the basic that we sing the lyrics based on the swaras nothing more. And I think I can identify the different swaras but not too much mind you... I just wanted to ask a question that we are teaching based on the age old method. Why not revolutionise it? At least for young generations if we start from swarams each variation like s, S, S' etc and r1,R1,R1' etc??? make them understand the tone and the variations of each swara then start the basics??? Is it difficult to do so?

Regards,
Manikandan.S
 

Dear Manikandan Sir,

If a person is able to sing S R G M P D N S' in MAyAmALavagowLa rAgam correctly, then the lower and upper

octave notes will automatically be understood. I have already given reasons why MAyAmALavagowLa is

chosen as the first rAgam.

BTW, s r g m in lower sthayi and P' D' N' S'' can not be reached in the very beginning! We actually find the pitch

of a voice by seeing the range it can reach - usually two octaves. The lowest note is set as p - lower panchamam! :)
 
Here is an interesting anecdote I read about Maharajapuram Vishwanatha Iyer.

A sishya of Viswanatha iyer was singing in a marriage concert, where Viswanatha iyer was present. The sishya sang “Poorvikalyani” and came upto neraval “Mathurapuri Nilaye Mani Valaye” in the song “Meenakshimemudam” and did not budge an inch from the lines “Mani Valaye”. Viswanatha iyer read him correctly and asked the bride’s father to pay the agreed sum instantly so that he may proceed further in the concert.
 

There is an interesting anecdote about the same line, 'MadhurApuri nilayE MaNi valayE'.

Once, Madurai Mani Iyer was supposed to be accompanied on Mridhangam by Sri. Palghat Mani Iyer. But, for some reason

Palghat Mani Iyer could not make it to the concert and some other artist was arranged. When the above line appeared,

M M I sang, pointing to the direction of mridhangam, changing the lyrics as, 'MadhurApuri nilayE! MaNi varalayE!'.
There was a spontaneous :clap2: from the audience.
 
Raji Ram said:
Dear Manikandan Sir,

If a person is able to sing S R G M P D N S' in MAyAmALavagowLa rAgam correctly, then the lower and upper

octave notes will automatically be understood. I have already given reasons why MAyAmALavagowLa is

chosen as the first rAgam.

BTW, s r g m in lower sthayi and P' D' N' S'' can not be reached in the very beginning! We actually find the pitch

of a voice by seeing the range it can reach - usually two octaves. The lowest note is set as p - lower panchamam! :)
Click to expand...

Thank you ma'm for your reply. I think the sentence came out different from what I wanted to express. What we generally do for a child to learn for e.g. a Language, art we give them basics like alphabets and all. Right.... Now starting to sing S P S' which I feel is not a part of the child's familiar sounds, but are important for the guru to know so that he can check the range and pitch of the child's voice. Then we directly go to the arohanam avarohanam of MayaaMalavaGowla. I am not criticising the concept of introducing either Mayamalavagowla or Sankarabaranam. I am asking why not let them be familiarised with the sound of all other swaras one by one then go to Mayamalavagowla? I don't know how I got the idea about swarsthanas and all as I am neither from music family nor am introduced till the age of 15. I started learning music from my mother who only knows songs not this much in detail like notations, varnams etc. Comparatively I have a little more knowledge about theory than her. So if I try to explain how the same swara when sang in different sthana sound different and the relation between the swaras and that of sahitya I get stuck up.

So like in Mathematics if we say 1 it is 1 in all sense, why not we introduce the swarams first like if ri is sang like r then it is shudha ri etc.in addition to their different shades then moving on to the Swaravali?
Do you think it'd be difficult for the learner to just be stagnant in one swara? or something like that?

So a little insight on the basics of the Carnatic please.

Thanks again,
Manikandan
 
Dear Mr. Manikandan,
I happened to see your post. I will add some comments and Raji Ram can add more. Getting the hang of a swarasthanam is the first goal when you teach. in our system, different people can sing in different sruthis, the aim is to get the student to recognize the ratios in mayamalavagowlai and internalize it. The difference between 's' and 'r' is the same as 'p' and 'd'. The difference between 'r' and 'g' is same as 'd' and 'n'. You just increase a little bit of 'g' and 'n' then you get 'm' and 'S'. This is easier for memory to grasp on to initially. So all the initial lessons are in this ragam. Once the swarasthanams for this ragam is entrenched, then you go on to geethams.

When you learn geethams you are introduced to the variations of the swarams. You learn geethams in ragams like Mohanam, Suddhasaveri etc which teaches you the variations in 'r' and 'd'. Ragams like anandabhairavi teaches you the variations in 'g'. Kalyani exposes you to vaiation in 'm', kambhoji, anandabhairavi expose you to variation in 'n' and finally nattai exposes you to the concept of singing small 'g' as 'r'. Once a student gets past the stage of geethams, then the basic foundation is laid. At this time the student has a good grasp of the variations in the vikruti swarams and you can start building on these.

The traditional method actually is quite methodical. Remember this is how young children were taught. Young children will find remembering the variation difficult, leave alone singing it. I guess Purandaradasa was very far sighted when he designed the sarali varisai etc. It is very methodical and well structured. The modern trend is to teach the students simple songs with simple talams, so they don't get bored with always singing the notes.

I hope this provides some explanation for your question.

K. Kumar
 

Thank you Kumar Sir, for your nice and explanatory post! :)

If a Guru is NOT able to find the range of a voice, then he / she is NOT fit to be a Guru, imho.

Let me share my latest experience (happened yesterday) with a ten year old girl, who is keen in learning Carnatic music.

I tried sruthis G. (5.5), A (6) and A. (6.5) and she could not sing Sa. Then I remembered my Guru's technique and asked

to sing just ANYTHING as Sa. It was Ga of Sruthi 6. I sang G instead of Sa - she repeated. Correspondingly I sang M G. She

sang. Then M G M; M G R; M G M R; M G R S. Then she hit the S correctly. I can't manage to sing more that A; That was my

worry ;) So this child has an 'ear' for music but afraid to sing. I have taken her as my student after telling her mom that

she needs slow and steady way to learn and I can not rush! For sure, she is going to be a challenge for my teaching!! :)
 

I have posted this already. The reason for choosing MAyAmALavagowLa as the first rAgam for beginners.


"The F A Q: Why the first rAgam taught is MAyAmALavagowLa (M M G)?

The easy notation of swarams in one octave is: S R1 R2 G1 G2 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N1 N2 S'

M M G has the swarams S R1 - - G2 M1 - P D1 - - N2 S'

This rAgam has symmetric pattern between Sa - Ma and P - S'. That is, the patterns of S R G M and P D N S' are the same.

The gamakams are simple. They are very easy to follow even by the beginners. The swarams oscillate like this:

S is a plain note; R1 oscillates between S and R1; G2 oscillates between G2 and M1; M1 is a plain note.

Similarly, P is a plain note; D1 oscillates between P and D1; N2 oscillates between N2 and S'; S' is a plain note.

Plain, gamakam, gamakam, plain - first half; plain, gamakam, gamakam, plain - second half. Easy to follow.

There are other rAgams like Thodi, KaraharapriyA, SankarAbharaNam with suddha Madhyamam and BhavapriyA, PanthuvarALi

(also known as KAmavardhani), HEmavathi, and KalyANi with prathi Madhyamam which have symmetric pattern of swarams.

There are a four more vivAdhi rAgams KanakAngi, Chala NAttai, SAlagam and RasikapriyA which also have symmetric swarams.

But, the gamakams in these rAgams are more complicated and also are not symmetric.

So, M M G is the one and only rAgam for beginners! :thumb:"


Please find some more discussions in this thread: First lesson in carnatic music
 
It is really great to know the basics and the structure of the music.I feel that the essence of Music is to reach God.

My point here is if we remain the same before, during and after the Music - Should we even do it??

Especially in the Bhakthi Marga, music is a great art which is used to reach God.The saintly poets who composes the songs reached God through music i.e Trio, Narayana Theerthar, Annamaiya, Purandara Dasar, Naradar. Name anyone, their ultimate objective is to reach God through Music.

Sadistically some people use Music for showing off their skills, popularity, money, applauses, media exposure etc.

Though I haven't learnt Music, when I listen to them, I see a lot of changes before, during and after the songs (especially composed by the saints). In these 10 minutes, I can see a vast difference. Hence obviously every Music practisioner MUST HAVE.

As you are an experienced person in Music, you should have had a lot of experiences. Hence to attack the very basics of Music i.e realising God, request your goodself to explain step by step how a Music student can use music to reach God.

If you ask me in the path I travel in Bhakthi Marga / Gnana Marga, I can give you 3 or 4 points that will change with every year of meditation practised. Hence applying the same here, probably, you can give 3 or 4 points how this changes with each year of practise.
 

Dear Srimadhan,

I have been learning Carnatic music right from my young age. Though I teach, I consider myself a student.

It is not easy to reach God by music within a few years. Only after the age of 40, I used to get goose bumps

and drops of tears while singing some lines of some songs. IMHO this is near God feeling. I don't know whether

I am right or wrong! I have also seen people with eyes filled with tears of joy when listening to divine music /

bhajans. But, I don't consider the jumping and shouting of some artists while singing as the way to reach God!

May be it will be a good exercise for the body! :)
 
In 'ellamE sangeethamthaan' programme Sriram Parasuram mentioned that 'Tyagaraja had broken rules in some of his kritis. For example, his kritis in ReethigowLa ragam start with panchamam which is an alpa swaram in that raagam.' Somya also mentioned in SwarNa sangeetham programme that SadhinachanE in Aarabhi does not contain a single nishaadham. Can you please throw light on this aspect of Tyagaraja kritis? Have other composers also done this?
 
vsubbu48 said:
1. In 'ellamE sangeethamthaan' programme Sriram Parasuram mentioned that 'Tyagaraja had broken rules in some of his kritis. For example, his kritis in ReethigowLa ragam start with panchamam which is an alpa swaram in that raagam.'

2. Sowmya also mentioned in SwarNa sangeetham programme that SadhinachanE in Aarabhi does not contain a single nishaadham. Can you please throw light on this aspect of Tyagaraja kritis? Have other composers also done this?
Click to expand...
Dear Sir,

1. Papanasam Sivan followed Saint Thyagaraja by composing 'ThathvamaRiya tharamA' starting with panchamam.

2. Some musicians add the following swara sAhidhyam as 5th charaNam - to add at least one NishAdham!

s' n d p m g r r m g r r s r s s | d. d. r s r , r r | m r p m d d p m (SamayAniki)

[TABLE="width: 1229"]
[TR]
[TD]sāra-asāruḍu sanaka sanandana | san-munisēvyuḍu | sakala-ādhāruḍu (samayāniki)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Ref: Sadhinchene - Sahityam
 
Raji Madam

The point I am making here is "If we are not knowing where we are going, we will go nowhere or probably in the reverse direction". That is where I see most people being misled into fortunes, praises, applaudes, media exposure etc.

After 17 years of meditation, I can vouch you that every time I meditate even for 10 minutes, I can say a minimum of 5 things I experienced differently. Hence this should also be the same for all the music practisioners. Provided the practisioner is 'Very Watchful or Conscious'.

My point here is "If a Carnatic Student after a 10 year practise which is meant for reaching God is able to give only 4-5 experiences, he is not in the correct path". It is like demeaning what it is supposed to be.

Should we not make efforts to change the whole situation??
 

Dear Srimadhan Sir,

Any art form is for sale now a days; be it music, dance, painting, acting or magic! Musicians sell their music either by

teaching or giving performances. If they attain the lotus feet of God when they leave this world, that should be enough.

Ten years of practice to reach God! Never possible. You know how much Saint Thyagaraja had to strive to see his ishta

deivam Rama, even when he lead a very simple life, with total devotion to Lord Rama? Reaching God is not that easy Sir! :)
 

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