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Real Worship By Swami Vivekananda

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This is Nishtha – knowing that all these different forms of worship are right, yet sticking to one and rejecting the others. We must not worship the others at all: we must not hate or criticize them, but respect them.

I dont know how much I would want to agree with this line...even though I am nothing compared to Swami Vivekananda.

I dont know but to a certain extent this is going to facilitate the formation of 'Ism".

I wonder why the word Reject was used in the 1st place?

Then the next line comes with the word Respect.

Reject yet Respect??

Then not worship them at all? Why so restrictive in thoughts?


I always thought Bhakti is like how Ants take to Nectar.. They Encompass it....Assimilate it..and enjoy the Sweetness.

Bhakti is all about Bhava taking a Concrete Form in our mind..that is our true Istha Devata.

Well may be I could be wrong.
 
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Palindrome,


As the boundaries of human scientific knowledge expand, the gods shrink but, for them to completely vanish, science has to progress much more from the present level.

Sri Sangom Ji,

Pranams,

.
We have history to prove that despite repeated and horrendous persecution on Hinduism by various religions/races time and again, viz by Greeks, Shaks, Huns, Arabs, Pathans, Mongolis, Portuguese, British, etc.Hinduism had stood the test of time and has survived. It wont shrink. It grows vibrantly.

IMHO, I would say that they expand in leaps and bounds, especially when one tries to persecute. While the human scientific knowledge improves with lot of new innovations everyday Aanmigam/Bakthi increases proportionately.

Few years back Kumudham was a weekly journal. Now the Kumudham House comes out with one more journal dedicated to Aanmigam/Bakthi under the name Kumudham Bakthi

Similarly Vikadan, now comes out with a dedicated version of Sakthi Vikadan

Even daily news papers comes out with supplementary on Aanmigam/Bakthi on selected days.

To my limited knowledge, there are Magazines brought out by Mutts, viz. Prasanth Nilayam, Kanchi Kamakoti Mutt, Vaithiga Shree, etc etc with circulation growing day by day.

There are TV Channals dedicated to Aanmigam. Even other channels do have programmes on Aanmigam like Aanmiga Sinthanaigal and Aanmiga Kathaikal,etc

This proves the trend prevailing among the general public more particular in India.

Above all, there are religious based Parties too.

You could see religious activities like Bakthi is growing. More people tend to visit temples. New temples are coming up every now and then. In my place, a quiet village adjacent to Air Port, we have a Shiva temple. During 1990s when I moved to this village, this temple used to receive only handful of Devotees. But nowadays, this very same temple attracts more devotees. On Pradosham days, the crowd is such that the temple Dharmakartha even introduced Entrance tickets in order to restrict crowd and thus ensure comfortable dharshan. But till date the temple grows and the number of devotees too grows.

To sum up, I planted a Pavazhamalli sapling at the entrance of my house near the Gate. This sapling has grown and at one point of time, one of its branches grown over size and started obstructing the gate way. I trimmed that particular branch, alas!! only to see that after one week there were lot of new branches coming out near the cut portion..

I wish let the human scientific knowledge grow. But shrinking of Gods, I believe is nothing but a day dream especially in the existing scenario! Bcos it is God's will!!


With regards:)
 
Sri Sangom Ji,

Pranams,

.
We have history to prove that despite repeated and horrendous persecution on Hinduism by various religions/races time and again, viz by Greeks, Shaks, Huns, Arabs, Pathans, Mongolis, Portuguese, British, etc.Hinduism had stood the test of time and has survived. It wont shrink. It grows vibrantly.

IMHO, I would say that they expand in leaps and bounds, especially when one tries to persecute. While the human scientific knowledge improves with lot of new innovations everyday Aanmigam/Bakthi increases proportionately.

Few years back Kumudham was a weekly journal. Now the Kumudham House comes out with one more journal dedicated to Aanmigam/Bakthi under the name Kumudham Bakthi

Similarly Vikadan, now comes out with a dedicated version of Sakthi Vikadan

Even daily news papers comes out with supplementary on Aanmigam/Bakthi on selected days.

To my limited knowledge, there are Magazines brought out by Mutts, viz. Prasanth Nilayam, Kanchi Kamakoti Mutt, Vaithiga Shree, etc etc with circulation growing day by day.

There are TV Channals dedicated to Aanmigam. Even other channels do have programmes on Aanmigam like Aanmiga Sinthanaigal and Aanmiga Kathaikal,etc

This proves the trend prevailing among the general public more particular in India.

Above all, there are religious based Parties too.

You could see religious activities like Bakthi is growing. More people tend to visit temples. New temples are coming up every now and then. In my place, a quiet village adjacent to Air Port, we have a Shiva temple. During 1990s when I moved to this village, this temple used to receive only handful of Devotees. But nowadays, this very same temple attracts more devotees. On Pradosham days, the crowd is such that the temple Dharmakartha even introduced Entrance tickets in order to restrict crowd and thus ensure comfortable dharshan. But till date the temple grows and the number of devotees too grows.

To sum up, I planted a Pavazhamalli sapling at the entrance of my house near the Gate. This sapling has grown and at one point of time, one of its branches grown over size and started obstructing the gate way. I trimmed that particular branch, alas!! only to see that after one week there were lot of new branches coming out near the cut portion..

I wish let the human scientific knowledge grow. But shrinking of Gods, I believe is nothing but a day dream especially in the existing scenario! Bcos it is God's will!!


With regards

Dear Shri Balasubramani,

I agree that, viewed from today's prevailing conditions, whatever you have written above is true. But even our own philosophy or vedanta lays down that all things in this experienced universe are mortal, i.e., not permanent. Therefore, everything including science as we know it today must be mortal too (that, at least, is my personal belief) and a thousand or so years from now, even this science as we know it today could have completely vanished. Same holds good for items like Bhakti, Temples and other places of worship, the Bhakti or religious publications, media etc.

I feel you will not disagree with me when I say that all this recent resurgence of Bhakti has been caused by the quantity of currency in circulation in this country having increased significantly. Some sources claim that a good proportion of this is due to fake currency injected into the system by elements inimical to the country, but I am no authority to pronounce any judgment about this. Bhakti is the latest sun-rise industry or business idea and the print and TV media have become well aware of this and are trying to exploit it to the maximum extent to increase their profits.

But if a person is truly religious or is after achieving self-enlightenment, none of these Bhakti methodologies will be of much use, I will say. Many of our great religious leaders have said that much; as an example you may see my 'signature' which says:

जैसे तिल में तॆल है, ज्यों चक‍मक में आग ।
तेरा सायी तुझ में है, तू जाग सकै तो जाग ॥
—संत कबीर

and this advice from Sant Kabirdas states that God is within oneself, just as the oil is within the sesamum seed, and fire is within the ஆரணி stones themselves; one must try to awaken (जाग) to this truth, if it is possible for oneself (तू जाग सकै तो जाग).

There is also an oft-repeated story about Ramakrishna Paramahamsa complaining to his spiritual guide about his inability to shake off Kali's form from his mind and the latter advised him to cut-off Kali also and go beyond. This only proves that all the idol worship does not matter when it comes to real spirituality or knowledge about the "self" (ஆத்மஜ்ஞானம்).

Adi Shankara also says that AtmajnAna can be got only through nididhyAsana or deep contemplation and that all the rest of the prescribed dwija daily routine can at best be of help only. He also expressly states that Samkhya and Yoga will not enable anyone towards Brahmajnana.

To clinch the matter, we have Ramana Maharshi saying that "Isvara is thus the product of Maya and He cannot be the origin of His origin." (The Removal of Superimposition) Is not all the temple worship directed towards this maayic Ishvara who also has to be mortal since he is produced by maayaa?

Today India is only 67 years old as an independent democratic country. Our lowest castes who could not even come near our temples or walk on the roads surrounding many temples, are enjoying such rights now; thanks to the many development schemes of the governments, the reservation system for the less privileged classes, etc., these lowest classes are now beginning to enjoy certain lifestyle which they could not even dream of some hundred years ago. These people had been looking at the brahmins and the other higher castes, acting as the custodians of the hindu religion and its temples, for more than thousand years. Now that they have got a chance, they want to experience first hand what it was that the higher castes had been safeguarding as their sole preserve for all these centuries.

But generations are changing and the younger lot (among these low castes) may not be driven by the same curiosity. Instead they may easily get attracted towards the proselytizing religions; even if they opt to remain as hindus, temples and pilgrimage tours may be only merry-making excursions for them and then temples will have to compete with the other secular tourist attractions. So, as time goes, the temples may lose out particularly because most temples are not being looked after well by the government which owns these now. The position of the gods in human minds will thus shrink. Let us not therefore feel happy and complacent, based on certain transcient trends.
 
Dear Shri Balasubramani,

So, as time goes, the temples may lose out particularly because most temples are not being looked after well by the government which owns these now. The position of the gods in human minds will thus shrink. Let us not therefore feel happy and complacent, based on certain transcient trends.

Sri Sangom Ji,

Pranams,

IMHO God is Eternal, His teachings are Eternal and His religion (Sanathana Dharma) is Eternal. This religion is reported to have existed for millions of years and not just few thousands.

Sanathana means Eternal. In its purest form, this religion is Sanatana, because it is based on truth. Truth is immortal and is never annihilated. It remains the same yesterday, today and forver. Therefore our true Sanatana Dharma in its purest form can never be exterminated.

I believe this.

Historians say that Hindu temples does not exist during vedic period, but people workshipped God then too. They seems to have workshipped natural forces like sky, Surya, Indra, Varuna and Prithivi.

How about Antharyami or Self-realisation? Was this practiced then? Please enlighten me on this.

With regards:)

P.S: Hope Sri Prasad Ji, will excuse me for derailing the subject.
 
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Sri Sangom Ji,

Pranams,

IMHO God is Eternal, His teachings are Eternal and His religion (Sanathana Dharma) is Eternal. This religion is reported to have existed for millions of years and not just few thousands.

Dear Shri Balasubramani,

Since you say "I believe this." subsequently, it becomes purely a matter of belief (or faith) - for you - and logic or rational arguments usually do not work when something is only "belief". Still, I am trying to give here what little I know of.

God or the idea of a god (or Isvara) itself is an idea created by social conditioning among hindus, right from birth. One's parents, close relatives, friends, the society around one, strengthens this idea. Imagine a baby born to a hindu girl and, for the sake of convenience, let us assume that this baby was the result of an illegal pregnancy and the infant was left at the steps of a Christian Church, anonymously, and that the Church brought up this child in one of its orphanages. Most likely, this child will grow up as a christian and may even mock at the hindu gods and the hindu religion. This is what we will see in the orphanages of Christians and the Yatheem khanas of Muslims. In hindu orphanages all children will grow up to become believers in hinduism.

Thus the god idea itself is a cultivated one just as the taste for coffee, tea (or even alcoholic drinks, drugs, etc.) are cultivated tastes. We have no evidence for the existence of an eternal God, nor is there any logical basis to assume that this eternal god has gone about giving entirely different and mutually inimical teachings (all eternal) to different groups of human beings so that they do wage wars against one another and kill. If there is such an eternal god, then he/she/it must be a diabolical god indeed.

Sanatana Dharma is a construct that is found in our epics and puranas, and not in the vedas (and I think even in the upanishads). No branch of scientific enquiry says that this sanatana dharma has remained for millions of years, in the Indian sub-continent or anywhere else in the world. Even in this sub-continent the belief system known as sanatana dharma has undergone major and minor changes along with the passage of time. One example is the disappearance of the vedic sacrifices of a very elaborate kind, lasting even for twelve years at a stretch continuously, and also the practice of killing animals in these (or any other) sacrifices performed as a vaideeki ceremony. (We had a discussion about "Sanatana Dharma - when did it start?" in this forum - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6991-sanatana-dharma-when-did-start.html ; post #18 thereunder is very informative. You may like to go through.)

Sanathana means Eternal. In its purest form, this religion is Sanatana, because it is based on truth. Truth is immortal and is never annihilated. It remains the same yesterday, today and forver. Therefore our true Sanatana Dharma in its purest form can never be exterminated.

I believe this.

Whatever one wants to believe, one is free to believe and to continue believing till the society finds such belief to be a mental aberration of sorts. In your own 5 sentences, you have been compelled to talk about a sanatana dharma first, but then qualify it - may be unknowingly or sub-consciously - to "our true sanatana dharma in its purest form"; that is one has to sift through the 'garden variety' sanatana dharma and pick up the one that is true, and is also in its purest (what is meant by 'pure' or 'purest' has not been made clear, by the way) form. This is an indirect admission that whatever goes as sanatana dharma today could be impure and also a "duplicate"—not the 'true' one.

Historians say that Hindu temples does not exist during vedic period, but people workshipped God then too. They seems to have workshipped natural forces like sky, Surya, Indra, Varuna and Prithivi.

The belief system contained in the Rigveda does not mention any temple or house of god/s. Scholars have deduced that the residences (might have been even straw huts) of the vedic rishis had separate places for keeping their three sacred fires (the aahavaneeya, the gaarhapathya and the dakshinaagni) inside their residences. No idol worship is mentioned and there are also no 'sthothras' - in the more modern sanskrit poetic meters - except the vedic riks in which the rishis directly praise the devas who are very often called or welcomed (swaahaa) to come and drink the soma juice offered by the rishis.

Scholars generally opine that temples, idol worship, etc., could have started only during the period of the Gupta empire. If there were temples before this time, they did not withstand the vagaries of time. But, if we bear in mind that the vedic people meticulously set fire to their yaagasaalas after completion of the yaaga and left no trace at all of the yaaga having been performed at the spot, we are driven to the conclusion that the belief in idol-worship, temples, lasting temple structures, etc., could have taken sufficiently long time to get introduced. This, again, is another instance of the so-called sanatana dharma having undergone a sea-change and proving thereby, that the Eternal God's religion (why does God himself need any religion?) could be altered by people.

How about Antharyami or Self-realisation? Was this practiced then? Please enlighten me on this.

With regards:)

P.S: Hope Sri Prasad Ji, will excuse me for derailing the subject.

The concept of antaryami is somewhat nebulous in the rigveda. It was limited to the notion that on death, the personality or the vital breath (tman) who was alive, gets out of the body and goes to a place where all the dead forefathers continue to live for eternity under conditions in accordance with the merits (puNyam) accumulated by each person; puNyam or merit could be acquired only through performance of the mandated (compulsory) yaagas and as many as possible of the optional ones. The pitrus (deceased personalities, that is) with high puNya became equal in status to the devas and were called as angirasas, bhrigus etc. There were lowly, inferior (avara pitrus), middle-class pitrus (madhyama pitrus) as well as SrEshTha pitrus according to the imagination of the vedic rishis.

Self or self-realization was not a problem at all for the vedic rishis. Those who composed the Upanishads were actually remonstrating against the reckless killing of various kinds of animals as essential part of the vedic sacrifices (yaagas) by the priests. These Upanishad kartas possibly made deep internal contemplation and became aware that the "I" feeling is different and separate from the mere physical body which becomes dead and perishes, and that there must be an unseen personality or entity, living inside the physical body and controlling its senses and experiencing emotions, etc. This they called "Atmaa" and promoted the notion that realizing this aatmaa is the highest possible spiritual goal for a dwija (ones who had to follow the vedic injunctions). This helped a lot in turning the priestly classes (and therefore, others also) away from sacrifices and animal slaughter. This is yet another instance of a few determined people radically altering the course of sanatana dharma which, according to your own admission, is the religion of the Eternal God.

Obviously, no body practised this self-realization back in the pre-upanishadic period. Subsequently or side by side with the upanishadic thoughts, however, there were others who also thought independently and arrived at philosophies which we call as "darSanas" (தர்சனம்). We have thus nyAya (Gauthama), vaiSEshika (kaNAda), sAmkhya (kapila), yOga (patanjali), poorva meemaamsa (Jaimini) and vedanta (Sankara) philosophies. Nyaya, Yoga and vedanta say that there is an Isvara the Lord of All souls. The others, viz., vaiSEshika, sAmkhya and poorva meemaamsa do not believe such an Isvara and are, therefore, "nireeshvara"vadas. But these are not nAstika vadas because they accept the authority of the vedas. In other words our vedas themselves support "nireeshvara vadas".

And, as I cited Ramana Maharshi's quote, the notion of Isvara itself is a product of mAyA or the ignorance of the jivaatmaa.
 


Dear Shri Balasubramani,

Since you say "I believe this." subsequently, it becomes purely a matter of belief (or faith) - for you - and logic or rational arguments usually do not work when something is only "belief". Still, I am trying to give here what little I know of.

God or the idea of a god (or Isvara) itself is an idea created by social conditioning among hindus, right from birth. One's parents, close relatives, friends, the society around one, strengthens this idea. Imagine a baby born to a hindu girl and, for the sake of convenience, let us assume that this baby was the result of an illegal pregnancy and the infant was left at the steps of a Christian Church, anonymously, and that the Church brought up this child in one of its orphanages. Most likely, this child will grow up as a christian and may even mock at the hindu gods and the hindu religion. This is what we will see in the orphanages of Christians and the Yatheem khanas of Muslims. In hindu orphanages all children will grow up to become believers in hinduism.

Thus the god idea itself is a cultivated one just as the taste for coffee, tea (or even alcoholic drinks, drugs, etc.) are cultivated tastes. We have no evidence for the existence of an eternal God, nor is there any logical basis to assume that this eternal god has gone about giving entirely different and mutually inimical teachings (all eternal) to different groups of human beings so that they do wage wars against one another and kill. If there is such an eternal god, then he/she/it must be a diabolical god indeed.

Sanatana Dharma is a construct that is found in our epics and puranas, and not in the vedas (and I think even in the upanishads). No branch of scientific enquiry says that this sanatana dharma has remained for millions of years, in the Indian sub-continent or anywhere else in the world. Even in this sub-continent the belief system known as sanatana dharma has undergone major and minor changes along with the passage of time. One example is the disappearance of the vedic sacrifices of a very elaborate kind, lasting even for twelve years at a stretch continuously, and also the practice of killing animals in these (or any other) sacrifices performed as a vaideeki ceremony. (We had a discussion about "Sanatana Dharma - when did it start?" in this forum - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6991-sanatana-dharma-when-did-start.html ; post #18 thereunder is very informative. You may like to go through.)



Whatever one wants to believe, one is free to believe and to continue believing till the society finds such belief to be a mental aberration of sorts. In your own 5 sentences, you have been compelled to talk about a sanatana dharma first, but then qualify it - may be unknowingly or sub-consciously - to "our true sanatana dharma in its purest form"; that is one has to sift through the 'garden variety' sanatana dharma and pick up the one that is true, and is also in its purest (what is meant by 'pure' or 'purest' has not been made clear, by the way) form. This is an indirect admission that whatever goes as sanatana dharma today could be impure and also a "duplicate"—not the 'true' one.



The belief system contained in the Rigveda does not mention any temple or house of god/s. Scholars have deduced that the residences (might have been even straw huts) of the vedic rishis had separate places for keeping their three sacred fires (the aahavaneeya, the gaarhapathya and the dakshinaagni) inside their residences. No idol worship is mentioned and there are also no 'sthothras' - in the more modern sanskrit poetic meters - except the vedic riks in which the rishis directly praise the devas who are very often called or welcomed (swaahaa) to come and drink the soma juice offered by the rishis.

Scholars generally opine that temples, idol worship, etc., could have started only during the period of the Gupta empire. If there were temples before this time, they did not withstand the vagaries of time. But, if we bear in mind that the vedic people meticulously set fire to their yaagasaalas after completion of the yaaga and left no trace at all of the yaaga having been performed at the spot, we are driven to the conclusion that the belief in idol-worship, temples, lasting temple structures, etc., could have taken sufficiently long time to get introduced. This, again, is another instance of the so-called sanatana dharma having undergone a sea-change and proving thereby, that the Eternal God's religion (why does God himself need any religion?) could be altered by people.



The concept of antaryami is somewhat nebulous in the rigveda. It was limited to the notion that on death, the personality or the vital breath (tman) who was alive, gets out of the body and goes to a place where all the dead forefathers continue to live for eternity under conditions in accordance with the merits (puNyam) accumulated by each person; puNyam or merit could be acquired only through performance of the mandated (compulsory) yaagas and as many as possible of the optional ones. The pitrus (deceased personalities, that is) with high puNya became equal in status to the devas and were called as angirasas, bhrigus etc. There were lowly, inferior (avara pitrus), middle-class pitrus (madhyama pitrus) as well as SrEshTha pitrus according to the imagination of the vedic rishis.

Self or self-realization was not a problem at all for the vedic rishis. Those who composed the Upanishads were actually remonstrating against the reckless killing of various kinds of animals as essential part of the vedic sacrifices (yaagas) by the priests. These Upanishad kartas possibly made deep internal contemplation and became aware that the "I" feeling is different and separate from the mere physical body which becomes dead and perishes, and that there must be an unseen personality or entity, living inside the physical body and controlling its senses and experiencing emotions, etc. This they called "Atmaa" and promoted the notion that realizing this aatmaa is the highest possible spiritual goal for a dwija (ones who had to follow the vedic injunctions). This helped a lot in turning the priestly classes (and therefore, others also) away from sacrifices and animal slaughter. This is yet another instance of a few determined people radically altering the course of sanatana dharma which, according to your own admission, is the religion of the Eternal God.

Obviously, no body practised this self-realization back in the pre-upanishadic period. Subsequently or side by side with the upanishadic thoughts, however, there were others who also thought independently and arrived at philosophies which we call as "darSanas" (தர்சனம்). We have thus nyAya (Gauthama), vaiSEshika (kaNAda), sAmkhya (kapila), yOga (patanjali), poorva meemaamsa (Jaimini) and vedanta (Sankara) philosophies. Nyaya, Yoga and vedanta say that there is an Isvara the Lord of All souls. The others, viz., vaiSEshika, sAmkhya and poorva meemaamsa do not believe such an Isvara and are, therefore, "nireeshvara"vadas. But these are not nAstika vadas because they accept the authority of the vedas. In other words our vedas themselves support "nireeshvara vadas".

And, as I cited Ramana Maharshi's quote, the notion of Isvara itself is a product of mAyA or the ignorance of the jivaatmaa.

Sri Sangom Ji,

Pranams

I am highly grateful to you for the efforts taken to reply my quries. Ur replies were very informative and have kindled my thoughts further. Now I have too many questions.

Don't want to bother you more. Shall shoot the questions at the forum and thus try to quench my thirst for knowledge.

Thanks once again.


With regards:)
 
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