Reforms in Hindu Caste System by J. Ajithkumar

[prasad1]

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"Since the four tier system is referred in our scriptures at various places and cannot be undone or wished away, all that is required is a different way of looking at the Caste system. I propose a system in which all of us Hindus live through the Sudra, Kshatriya, Vysya and Brahmin Castes as different stages in our lives.

In the classical definition of Caste System, the different qualities attributed are as follows :Brahmin ' Learned & Spiritual
Kshatriya ' Strong & Fighting
Vysya - Intelligent & Creates Wealth
Sudra ' Average & Assists all others

Essentially all of us are Sudras at birth and it is evident from the qualities attributed. It is something like starting on a clean slate. The average age of a human being is now 80 years and it is logical to assume that we exhibit Sudra like qualities until one fourth of our lifetime i.e till the age of 20. In the next phase i.e till the age of 40, we are strong, physically active and exhibit qualities of a Kshatriya. This is the period most of us marry and rear children. Strong and fighting qualities are required to protect the family and feed them. In the next phase i.e 41 to 60, we all become worldly wise and participate in one form or other of wealth creation for the family and society, which makes us good Vysayas. And finally, in the last phase, we tend to concentrate on spiritual activities and get ready to depart. We all try to become ideal Brahmins in the age group above 60.

Thus all of us Hindus, irrespective of our Gothras, pass through the four tier Caste system as envisaged in our scriptures and live an ideal life fulfilling all the necessary conditions required at various phases. It is this minor reinterpretation of the Caste system that will bring about drastic changes in the way Hindu society would think. All that we need is disassociating the classical Caste system from the present arrangement we have. "


Disclimer:
I do not believe in birth based categories, and I do not live in Tamil Nadu.
Also I am giving a forum to bash all Brahmins:yield: Sorry friends that was not the intent. Unfortunately we can not have a conversation of like minded people in a public forum.

Reforms in Hindu Caste System by J. Ajithkumar

 

[Yamaka]

"The hereditary principle which created bad blood in later years is nothing but a clever move on the part of Brahmins to keep the power within their kith and kin. We find this no longer valid and practical. Most[COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]children[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] of Brahmin parents do not study scriptures, do not practice rituals and do not live like Brahmins" J. Ajithkumar as posted here in #1

"The hereditary principle which created bad blood in later years is nothing but a clever move on the part of Brahmins to keep the power within their kith and kin."

Yes.. yes.. there is real BAD BLOOD even today! That's a simple FACT.

This is what many of us in this Forum have been writing about - many Brahmin Supremacists here have been asking for PROOF... they are all hell bent on re-writing the known History of Caste Hierarchy of India....

They will fail miserably.

Wait & watch.

 

[prasad1]

Look who is living in the past. This is a reform and a plan for going forward. If you like the dung beetle carry dung all the time and then complain of the stink, who is to blame?

Look to the future for a change, leave your smelly past behind. I have said it before, if a brahmin did wrong by you, blame him or you misfortune. It is not the fault of present day.
We have been waiting and watching, not one suggestion, not one idea has been proposed. Except this cynical spouting of venom.

 

[Govinda]

In the classical definition of Caste System, the different qualities attributed are as follows :Brahmin ' Learned & Spiritual
Kshatriya ' Strong & Fighting
Vysya - Intelligent & Creates Wealth
Sudra ' Average & Assists all others

When did that Author own the classical caste system?

That was how it existed in the beginning of time in this material world. But, all those classes/varnas were bound by the dharma,artha,kama, moksha. But, As Gita states, everyone in their own feild of job/skills/sphere of life will eventually understand Self better, by following the Karma, Jnana and Bhakti Yoga.

Whatever one born, though is heredity and most suitable of one's nature, this birth can also be just of a slip of karma, hence may emerge as a person of a different nature.

all of us are Sudras at birth and it is evident from the qualities attributed

This seems illusory/unrealistic. This is refuting the whole idea of Self and seems Atheistic that we are born ignorant and education/language has taught us everything to become Realized/Spiritual.

There are only 2 cases :
1. One is born with the same consciousness that was left out in the previous life/birth In most cases people remain whatever nature they were born with. Those corrupt,ignorant or equally likely honest,helpful, spiritual etc. will be the same for most of their lives.

2. Simply due to Karma.
But there are other cases, people having great qualities born in a vile environment and person born upper-castes/educated/rich family may not have the great qualities.

The only way of changing people is to improve their intellect/reasoning and teaching them Spiritual philosophies/Critical Thinking. Our India goes after Science/Modern Techs. which are simply useless in shaping their values/consciousness. Access to scientific inventions overtime made them more materialistic and ended up "more" in corruption, not to say they weren't corrupt already! So, we are all basically "corrupted" VAishyAs/business-like and "Corrupted" Sudras at birth [as our recent ancestors never followed anything vedic]

Those varnas of ancient days were completely spiritual, never operated for ego-based results, they were Self-Realized. We are not in any of those vedic varnAs. Proof ! is Indian Corruption and Materialism, Consumerism Plus !!

 

[suraju06]

"The hereditary principle which created bad blood in later years is nothing but a clever move on the part of Brahmins to keep the power within their kith and kin. We find this no longer valid and practical. Most[COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]children[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] of Brahmin parents do not study scriptures, do not practice rituals and do not live like Brahmins" J. Ajithkumar as posted here in #1

"The hereditary principle which created bad blood in later years is nothing but a clever move on the part of Brahmins to keep the power within their kith and kin."

Yes.. yes.. there is real BAD BLOOD even today! That's a simple FACT.

This is what many of us in this Forum have been writing about - many Brahmin Supremacists here have been asking for PROOF... they are all hell bent on re-writing the known History of Caste Hierarchy of India....

They will fail miserably.

Wait & watch.

"The known history of Caste Hierarchy in India"--yes the history written by Christian Missionaries of European origin and parrotted faithfully by their indian vassals.

 

[Yamaka]

"The known history of Caste Hierarchy in India"--yes the history written by Christian Missionaries of European origin and parrotted faithfully by their indian vassals.

Dear Raju & Co:

Unfortunately, India was under the occupation of invaders since 900 AD and under Colonial power for nearly 300 years... English people as our Masters did so many bad things AND some good things - one among them is writing the Indian History (mostly as non-partisan/non-biased academics) and have done fairly a good job...

Now you people are hell bent on re-writing the known history of Caste Hierarchy in India...you have a political party - the BJP - bankrolling such efforts.

Now, please write "Your History" here by touching the following milestones!

1. Who started the Hinduism as we know it today? When was it started?

2. Is there a Caste Hierarchy in India? If so, how did it get started? How is it connected to Hinduism?

3. Who were the Architects of this Pyramidal Caste Hierarchy?

4. Did Brahmins and "Kings & Warriors" (Kshatrias?) collude to plunder rest of the people in the Caste Hierarchy?

5. Did Brahmins work with the British to codify the caste system in the Indian Legal System?

I have given my answers earlier... now you articulate yours cogently (with PROOF) and spread the blame on OTHERS!
Let's see whether it makes any sense to reasonable people here!!

Good luck.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Yamaka and Co.,

Dear Raju & Co:
Unfortunately, India was under the occupation of invaders since 900 AD and under Colonial power for nearly 300 years... English people as our Masters did so many bad things AND some good things - one among them is writing the Indian History (mostly as non-partisan/non-biased academics) and have done fairly a good job...

The basic issue is that the history written by the Europeans is biased and is not a true and faithful description of events. So if you think they have done a good job , be happy in your world of make believe and do not bother to trouble us.

Now you people are hell bent on re-writing the known history of Caste Hierarchy in India...you have a political party - the BJP - bankrolling such efforts.

Oh how nice it would be. If BJP is going to finance me for writing here, I will leave my business enterprise and keep banging on my computer keyboard happily 24/7 with a cup of strong coffee by my side. Coming to the point, we are not interested in rewriting anything. We want only the events to be interpreted properly not through the european experiences but through the desi experiences.

Now, please write "Your History" here by touching the following milestones!
1. Who started the Hinduism as we know it today? When was it started?
2. Is there a Caste Hierarchy in India? If so, how did it get started? How is it connected to Hinduism?
3. Who were the Architects of this Pyramidal Caste Hierarchy?
4. Did Brahmins and "Kings & Warriors" (Kshatrias?) collude to plunder rest of the people in the Caste Hierarchy?
5. Did Brahmins [COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]work[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] with the British to codify the caste system in the Indian Legal System?

Since it is you who has started this, please answer each question from your angle first with proof/supporting evidence (no handed down wisdom). Then we will come with what we have.

Let's see whether it makes any sense to reasonable people here!!

Why not. If you agree we can even conduct a poll among the members of the forum.

 

[kailash]

namaste,

the puruSha sUktam describes the origins of the brAhmaNa, rAjaNya, vaishya and shUdra as parts of the whole forever alive body of the Adi puruSha. It is the worst type of madness if a person tried to dissect his own body to study whether his legs, or hands, or stomach greater or lesser than his own head. The only sure thing is he won't be alive to tell the story to anybody.

Yes I have very great pride in my mother, father, and his father... ancestry and love them for being for them being human. Pride in ancestry is hope in progeny... And this I cannot and will not deny. And I will not deny this right of every human being to have pride in their parents. So I will not get into caste debates.

 

[prasad1]

Yes I have very great pride in my mother, father, and his father... ancestry and love them for being for them being human. Pride in ancestry is hope in progeny... And this I cannot and will not deny. And I will not deny this right of every human being to have pride in their parents. So I will not get into caste debates.

Some of us will agree with you, and wholeheartedly support your view. But there are others who have not forgiven their parents or their in-laws for their birth.

 

[Yamaka]

"The basic issue is that the history written by the Europeans is biased and is not a true and faithful description of events. So if you think they have done a good job , be happy in your world of make believe and do not bother to trouble us." - Raju post 7.

As J. Ajithkumar whose opinions were the basis of this Thread, millions of Indians and the whole world believe the India's History written by the non-biased Europeans...

You and your ilk don't want to believe...

The curiosity is on what basis? Is it because of Ultra-Nationalism? Or if the written History is "ugly and annoying" then shoot the Messenger Syndrome - Blaming the Authors?

Whatever it is, the world is comfortable with the History as written by the non-biased academics, who happened to be mostly Europeans!

Peace.



ps. We are very readily using the European language and the technology developed by the WEST to communicate readily across about 12,000 miles apart, then why don't we accept the History they wrote? Suddenly, they became ALIENS, menacing our psyche! Lol.

 

[sangom]

ps. We are very readily using the European language and the technology developed by the WEST to communicate readily across about 12,000 miles apart, then why don't we accept the History they wrote? Suddenly, they became ALIENS, menacing our psyche! Lol.

Shri Yamaka,

Our Brahmin Basher Exterminators seem to believe absolutely in the dictum "na brooyaat satyam apriyam" (Do not tell the truth if it is not comfortable - to live with.)

 

[kailash]

"The basic issue is that the history written by the Europeans is biased and is not a true and faithful description of events. So if you think they have done a good job , be happy in your world of make believe and do not bother to trouble us." - Raju post 7.

As J. Ajithkumar whose opinions were the basis of this Thread, millions of Indians and the whole world believe the India's History written by the non-biased Europeans...

You and your ilk don't want to believe...

The curiosity is on what basis? Is it because of Ultra-Nationalism? Or if the written History is "ugly and annoying" then shoot the Messenger Syndrome - Blaming the Authors?

Whatever it is, the world is comfortable with the History as written by the non-biased academics, who happened to be mostly Europeans!

Peace.



ps. We are very readily using the European language and the technology developed by the WEST to communicate readily across about 12,000 miles apart, then why don't we accept the History they wrote? Suddenly, they became ALIENS, menacing our psyche! Lol.

People and their world that is comfortable with Australian History, The History of the Aborigine, The History of Tasamania, The History of the Red Indians in North America, The History of Maya peoples of South and Meso America, History of Canada, History of the African Nations can remain comfortable. There are no pages included in these for the facts or lack of it on the belief of Aborigines and "Red Indian" and the conquered people.

India is quite a different cup of tea. We are the last bastion for the free Hindu, Muslim and Christian, Buddhist whatever. I have full faith and trust in whatever my father, grand father told me. The base premise from which alien historians want me to start is - "that my parents... grand parents etc. were ignorant liars... that they kept me in bondage and wanted misery for me". AND my children and I should believe in this History book of my people written by guys that did not even write true school essays on their own history. And if they did they were appreciations of net benefits of slavery, subjugation and possible decimation by conquerors. The Tasmanian Aborigine, incidentally became extinct long ago. The last ones were hunted and shot down for sport.

I willl be happiest if people stopped trying to convert me so that they can go to heaven. It is my birth right freedom to live and believe in whatever I want and also my soul has freedom to go wherever it wants after my death. Who is any body to even think about that?

 

[kailash]

namaste sir,

"Brahmin Basher Exterminators" - The extermination of Brahmin bashers is very very wrong. I say long live their tribe. They have become so very predictable. As long as they are not exterminated Brahmins can sleep happily that are not doomed for extinction.

 

[sarang]

It is your kind who have a stated purpose of extermination of brahmins and brahminism. We brahmins wish you a long life and continue your fight to other atheists, islamic jihadis who want to kill all kafirs and christian missionaries who want to all sinners (non christians) to convert.

Tambrams are a very small community and docile and nonviolent; you must carry your battle cry to others who can offer a real fight unto death.

Shri Yamaka,

Our Brahmin Basher Exterminators seem to believe absolutely in the dictum "na brooyaat satyam apriyam" (Do not tell the truth if it is not comfortable - to live with.)

 

[Nara]

.... The Tasmanian Aborigine, incidentally became extinct long ago. The last ones were hunted and shot down for sport.

kailash, you are overstating your case with "hunted and shot down for sport". How the Europeans treated the locals is abominable, but their crimes must be accurately stated.

India is quite a different cup of tea. We are the last bastion for the free Hindu, Muslim and Christian, Buddhist whatever.

You are doing it here as well. When you overstate one aspect of your argument, your entire argument gets contaminated.

The base premise from which alien historians want me to start is - "that my parents... grand parents etc. were ignorant liars.

This is not so. Our forefathers lived in a different era, the norms were different. What is objectionable is the claim the system they followed was perfect and is ideally suited for all times. Look at what sarang keeps touting, he thinks if everyone is a casteist then life will be dandy.

How dare Nara calls the Europeans "cheats", when he is readily using the European language and the technology developed by the immigrant Europeans to communicate readily across about 12,000 miles apart? How dare he calls the Europeans "cheats" when he lives in the very same country built by these immigrant Europeans? Nara should tender an unconditional apology to the Europeans immediately!

KB, your mock is off mark. Europeans did cheat the locals, in fact I think "cheat" is a very mild word for what they did. However, we know all this because the same Europeans recorded all this accurately.

In any case, the point was not that we believe everything European wrote down or said, but to look to legitimate historians for accurate understanding of the past, whoever they may be, Europeans or otherwise. The flip side of this is, just because a history book is written by an Indian it does not automatically become trustworthy.

Cheers!

 

[kailash]

namaste, the issue is how qualified the authors of history books and much they do know about Indian History. And whether they have read and understood the 512 List of Works and authors cited by Sir Monier Williams in his Sanskrit - English Dictionary. And whether they have read Lord Macauley statement - "a people that take no pride in the noble achievements of remote ancestors will never achieve anything worthy to be remembered by remote descendants".

"History is the pulse of a nation. So long as it beats the person lives; likewise so long as a country continues to search for its true history it cannot die" - Sri.P.N.Oak.

Depending on history taught to you in schools, or histories written by foreigners for you or by Indians persons that have coalition and external affairs compulsions is like living with pace-makers or worse heart-transplants. You will not know what your heritage is. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, in his numerous letters to his daughter - explained history as he knew it and explained her heritage. It is the duty of every father to pass on what was bequeathed to him. "My father did not leave me anything" is also a very great heritage.

regards

 

[Yamaka]

namaste, the issue is how qualified the authors of history books and much they do know about Indian History. And whether they have read and understood the 512 List of Works and authors cited by Sir Monier Williams in his Sanskrit - English Dictionary. And whether they have read Lord Macauley statement - "a people that take no pride in the noble achievements of remote ancestors will never achieve anything worthy to be remembered by remote descendants".

"History is the pulse of a nation. So long as it beats the person lives; likewise so long as a country continues to search for its true history it cannot die" - Sri.P.N.Oak.

Depending on history taught to you in schools, or histories written by foreigners for you or by Indians persons that have coalition and external affairs compulsions is like living with pace-makers or worse heart-transplants. You will not know what your heritage is. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, in his numerous letters to his daughter - explained history as he knew it and explained her heritage. It is the duty of every father to pass on what was bequeathed to him. "My father did not leave me anything" is also a very great heritage.

regards

Kailash:

What you show is the typical "Shoot the Messenger" syndrome... you don't like the MESSAGE, then you are angry at the Messenger...

Because British were ruling us for a long long time, they KNEW our history very well... Some of them - non partisan, unbiased academics - wrote the History of Hindusim, Brahminism and Casteism... you NOW realize that everything you read is "against your forefathers", therefore you react to trash the History and the Historians.

Problem, you see, is not the History... it's your forefathers! You may love or hate them... but History is History...

Accept it.

Why do you want to "Shoot the Messengers"?

 

[vsubbu48]

Kailash:

.

Problem, you see, is not the History... it's your forefathers! You may love or hate them... but History is History...

Accept it.

Why do you want to "Shoot the Messengers"?

As it happens very often in various threads of this forum this thread has also lost its way and is meandering like a river. A writer called Ajit Kumar has made a suggestion in 2003, eight years back, for abolishing the caste system among Hindus. He has suggested adopting the varna system of yore. As is our wont, we have traversed back in history and have started quarrelling about its authenticity.

I personally feel that the path suggested by Ajit Kumar is utopian. It presumes that everyone lives up to 80 years or more. How does one know about one's longevity? When we want to abolish the caste system, why bring in the varna system again? Presuming that one courses through the varna system every 20 years, starting with sudra, will that person have the necessary intellectual capability to become brahmin at the age of 60 (because as a sudra, he would not had any education in his formative years)? What about women? Will all of them become kshatriyas after 20 and do business after 40? There are many such issues but discussing them now may be worthless academic excercise.

 

[kailash]

Namaste,

I think I am being very helpful and sympathetic to the imaginary author of the imaginary history book of India by foreign author - it is a non seller from the start. India doesn't like tragedies. I hope he has kept his social security card safe - I don't want him to shoot himself.

I suggest the author to understand the meaning of Caveat Emptor, Carrying Coal to Newcastle, Selling oil to the Arabs, and read the story of the Trojan Horse. Every mother in India tells the principles in these to her child. And so do mothers in imaginary author's country. "Beware of Strangers" - I think I should start writing a book - "Beware of Strangers Carrying History Books To Sell"

 

[kailash]

Namaste,

It will be very helpful for everybody to know what the laws are in India. Ignorance of law is never an excuse. It is the duty of everybody to abide by the law. You may like the law or you may not. If you don't like the law you have the right to change the law through your MP and the Assembly or Parliment.

The best and most authentic guideline for the Hindu history of India is available by purchase of the Bare Acts at any law book store. Hindu Marriage Act 1956, Validations and Proceedings 1960, Adoption and Maintenance 1956. Hindu Minority & Gurdianship 1956, Hindu Succession, Family Courts Act, Special Marriage Act. And others relating to Caste., rights etc.

And also know what is difference between Civil laws and Criminal Laws.

 

[kailash]

namaste,

my suggestion to everybody is to download freeplane from Freeplane - free mind mapping and knowledge management software
This is a mind mapping tool that will help organizing thoughts and planning what to do with it. The foundations for knowing your mind is in the veda, and vaidik literature. If Indians can use that knowledge and skills they can develop better products themselves.

 

[natkaushik]

"Since the four tier system is referred in our scriptures at various places and cannot be undone or wished away, all that is required is a different way of looking at the Caste system. I propose a system in which all of us Hindus live through the Sudra, Kshatriya, Vysya and Brahmin Castes as different stages in our lives.

In the classical definition of Caste System, the different qualities attributed are as follows :Brahmin ' Learned & Spiritual
Kshatriya ' Strong & Fighting
Vysya - Intelligent & Creates Wealth
Sudra ' Average & Assists all others

Essentially all of us are Sudras at birth and it is evident from the qualities attributed. It is something like starting on a clean slate. The average age of a human being is now 80 years and it is logical to assume that we exhibit Sudra like qualities until one fourth of our lifetime i.e till the age of 20. In the next phase i.e till the age of 40, we are strong, physically active and exhibit qualities of a Kshatriya. This is the period most of us marry and rear children. Strong and fighting qualities are required to protect the family and feed them. In the next phase i.e 41 to 60, we all become worldly wise and participate in one form or other of wealth creation for the family and society, which makes us good Vysayas. And finally, in the last phase, we tend to concentrate on spiritual activities and get ready to depart. We all try to become ideal Brahmins in the age group above 60.

Thus all of us Hindus, irrespective of our Gothras, pass through the four tier Caste system as envisaged in our scriptures and live an ideal life fulfilling all the necessary conditions required at various phases. It is this minor reinterpretation of the Caste system that will bring about drastic changes in the way Hindu society would think. All that we need is disassociating the classical Caste system from the present arrangement we have. "


Disclimer:
I do not believe in birth based categories, and I do not live in Tamil Nadu.
Also I am giving a forum to bash all Brahmins:yield: Sorry friends that was not the intent. Unfortunately we can not have a conversation of like minded people in a public forum.

Reforms in Hindu Caste System by J. Ajithkumar

This thread's title itself starts with a fundamentally wrong premise, that THE SO CALLED CASTE SYSTEM HAS A RELIGIOUS BASIS. The word 'varna' is used in religious and not 'jathi'.The ennumeration of eight hundred and odd castes and their classification into OC,BC,OBC,SC,ST have been done during British rule and continued by successive indian governments. These 'caste' groups were prevalent in europe as evident by the surnames such as 'Smith',' Taylor', Goldsmith','Shoemaker', 'Mason' etc..The british wanted to exaggerate the differences among indians and create conflic to safeguard their rule.The votebank politics keeps the divsions in force through reservstions.Thus the 'caste system' is only the creation of the rulers.Incidently, 'Manu' was also a king (not a brahmin!) to whom the manusmrithy is attributed.

The caste conflicts are not created by brahmins nor encouraged by them.For brahmins all other communities are the same.The conflicts are totally between members of BC and SC.The brahmins of tamilnadu are feverishly trying to 'unbrahminise' themselves by not learning sanskrit and tamil,not learning to do pujas,eating proscribed food and trying to be like other communities, forgeting that they have the special respect of other communities solely because of their religious scholarship and disciplined living.

Thus the 'caste system' is the key to votebank politics and will stay till 'pralaya' or until such time india has a communist or facist government.

Is there anything we can do? I think so.The answer is in providing the opportunity for everyone to learn sanskrit.The universal knowledge of sanskrit will eliminate the superiority or inferiority complexes.Dr.Ambedkar had respect of all communities because of his vast knowledge of the hindu scriptures.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Whatever may be the differences in Hindu system we have because of its sub sects, one can certainly
see the unity and utmost cohesion amongst Hindus from Mountain Himalayas to the Tip edge of India to the
South. This can be seen from the Puranas, South Indians travelling to Varnasi, Kailash, Kedereshwarar Temple,
Mukthinath, Haridwar, etc., North Indians prefer to visit at least once in their life to Rameswaram, Kanyakumari
and Danushkodi without fail. This shows cohesion we have in our Hindu fold, which is an open undeniable
truth, everyone can see even this day.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur