Respect women’s autonomy

[Janaki Jambunathan]

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is obvious that in marital relationship, one cannot consider as individual alone. While the `self alone' act as an individual (in isolation) is not violation, it is, while in a relationship government by several visible and subtle aspects of dharma. (#25)

The question is Respect women autonomy - Does shastra allow that?

Respect women autonomy is nil in marital relationship but only male authority?

Word Salads I get in a new plate & new thread as well!

Original plate becomes வழ வழ கொழ கொழ - Like வெளக்கெண்ண வாழப்பழம் !

Devi to Doormat!

Hinduism has an impressive capacity to sustain contradictions. Within its fold, Hinduism simultaneously holds dualism and non-dualism; devotion, doubt and denial; self-denying spiritualism and self-gratifying materialism. One such contradiction is the status of women. Hindu mores deify women as the venerable mother, and as formidable goddesses, even as they relegate them to submissive inferiority.

 

[ekaputra]

At the outset I must confess that I have not read any of the traditional Dharmic texts (and probably never will) but since some of the practices in the name of Shastras, have affected in the past and may affect in the future people I know and care for ...
it is not surprising that many shastras that have been handed down are "of the male, by the male, for the male" since these were drafted by males.

Added to this are some ugly, shameful and cruel practices against women that have been added over the centuries that have now come to be accepted as Shastras, though I doubt there is any sanction in the traditional texts. For instance, the practice of humiliating a widowed woman by breaking bangles, wiping Sindoor/ vermilion and rubbing it into her that she is a WIDOW and should accept the fact that even if she continues as a first class citizen of the country, she has lost her social status and she is only a third class citizen in social and family circles and cannot take part in auspicious rituals, even if it is the marriage of her own children and even though she has the greatest and in my opinion sole claim (as her husband is deceased). Up to my great grandmother's time there was even the uglier practice of tonsuring widows.

But, I am conservative and I still feel that while a woman should enjoy the same autonomy as a man, it is different when it comes to parents. Parents (father or mother) should limit their own autonomy for they owe a duty to their children. And when it comes to raising children a mother has unarguably greater influence over the children and plays a bigger role in moulding the children and for this reason a mother has a greater duty to put the welfare of her children over autonomy though it is equally important for the father to do likewise.

I fully subscribe to this well known saying of Napoleon:
"Give me good mothers and I will give you a great nation"

 

[vAYALORE]

There are two issues (1) What dharma sastraas say (2) How customs and traditions have mutated over a period of time. As per former, women enjoy more rights than men. Without wife's permission, a man can't feed a braahman or even an athithi. He can start a homam or shradhdham or whatever. Kings can't do yagams without wife. Wife ensures man conducts life as per dharma sasthra. All wealth are held in te name of wife. She is Namma Veettu mahalakshmi (in Telugu ma inti Mahalakshmi). The concept of autonomy was alien to our culture. It was mutual accommodation, mutual trust, mutual loves, sense of security. Whereas there are manthraas strating from garbhadhaanam to pumsavanam, naamakaranam, etc till aparakaryam, we do not have manthraas for divorce. A brahmin can never take a second wife whereas a kshatriya could. Rules varied depending on occupation. Thie value of sense of security this gives is only known who do not enjoy it. Air is free. We do not attach value. One incident from my life. In 1990s i used to work in Botswana and my wife was India for my son's education and care of my mom and her mom. My collegue told me: You are lucky. You are Indian. When you go on leave , you wife will be eagerly waiting for you. Not our case. If we are away for months, we don't know whether wife will be at home at all.And when i was in Gulf, i used to see a lot of Indian housemaids all alone leaving husband and children back in India with trust. Customs and family traditions unfortunately mutate over time. Dowry is a tradition - not a sashtraa injunction. Since women carried very hhigh risk during child birth in those days and were considered timid, men were forced to own up responsibility of protection. My son is teaching my grand daughter martial arts, swimming from age of 4 and he says music, dance could wiat.If we are self entitled and focus on "I" . "my autonomy" we will never be happy whatever the autonomy one enjoys. When we share, trust, accommodate, love and interdependent, we have a joyous life.

 

[prasad1]

The combination of religious deities with the results of violence make for a powerful message in this Indian domestic violence campaign.


Featuring the Hindu goddesses Lakshmi, Durga and Saraswati, the shots show the women in typical serene yet powerful poses.

But each goddess bears the scars of physical violence -a graze, black eye, a fat lip and cuts.

Hindu goddesses highlight India's currents of violent misogyny

A high-profile ad campaign uses three of India's most powerful female deities to spotlight the prevalance of murder of newlywed brides, rape, spousal abuse, and killings of women for transgressions of traditional male authority.

www.theglobeandmail.com

If one wife will not agree the King can marry as many queens he wants, and in addition, he can have multiple concubines. Do you call that the queen is in an exalted position? She is more like decoration.

Talk is cheap actions prove it otherwise. Women did not have any power.

All wealth are held in te name of wife. She is Namma Veettu mahalakshmi (in Telugu ma inti Mahalakshmi).

Absolutely hollow words, the husband controls and even gambles away the wife. Yudistra gambled away Draupadi as his possession. The man controls the wealth, and even if he had only one wife, she looses all power the moment the husband dies. Widows did not have any power. Just visit Vrindavan and see the plight of widows. Dharmasastra did not protect them.

http://nirmukta.com/2011/08/27/the-status-of-women-as-depicted-by-manu-in-the-manusmriti/

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

But each goddess bears the scars of physical violence -a graze, black eye, a fat lip and cuts.(#29)

Dharma is ossified . Not flexible ! Dharma is same for celestial goddess & earthy aaaji ki nari ! Women will continue to be battered ! Women should break or break away from rigid ossified dharma.!

 

[usaiyer]

The goddesses and scars business is pretty old campaign (oct.2013)material and and often misused
as we know of that famous painter M.F Husain.The woman represents shakti in our Hindu culture and
she only helps men perform the various functions gods not exempt from this..The concept of Ardhanari image of god is implying equality of men and women in society.
But the mistreatment of women is in my opinion attributable to cultural decline as we moved one yugam to another, why the deterioration in culture is a point to ponder and discuss.?
Is it due to commercialism,mis-focused education and being copy cats of western glamour and so on?

 

[prasad1]

The goddesses and scars business is pretty old campaign (oct.2013)material and and often misused
as we know of that famous painter M.F Husain.The woman represents shakti in our Hindu culture and
she only helps men perform the various functions gods not exempt from this..The concept of Ardhanari image of god is implying equality of men and women in society.
But the mistreatment of women is in my opinion attributable to cultural decline as we moved one yugam to another, why the deterioration in culture is a point to ponder and discuss.?
Is it due to commercialism,mis-focused education and being copy cats of western glamour and so on?

What is ideal and what is actual is two different things.

The concept of Ardhanari image of god is implying equality of men and women in society.

In whose dream?
It is very easy to assume anything, and write rosy words. In reality, it means nothing.
Please read post#30.
The day men stop controlling women and stop dictating what is appropriate dress or ornament for women, women are trapped.

You are an intelligent person please don't pretend that you do not see the double standards.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

People otherwise rightious - fevicoled to their dharma to fit them personally were witnesses to Adharma snapped on help lees woman under their nose ! This is Mahabharatham.

Personification of Dharma banished pregnant Sita as he is Dharma bound!
The message is clear - Women are not Devis they are doormat! Adharma justified as Dharma

 

[renuka]

A lot of inequality we see stems from fear.
There is acute fear in almost every society in the world when it comes to women.
The fear of the male of losing a female becos she may go astray.
This is the primal behavior of "my property" and my property should behave according to my dictates.

Even women do this too especially the Indian woman does this to her son and wrecks his life in the process where she doesnt allow him to lead a happy life with his wife and wants her "property"(son) to be at her service.

So who is to blame?
No one.
Its just basic instincts of a human.

We have to get real too, in the past a man had no way to know if his wife is carrying the baby of his DNA.

That is the privilege that only a woman has ..as to know who is the father of her child.
But now there is DNA paternity testing so fear is less!LOL

Now, why do women allow themselves to be treated so badly ?
Economic dependence!
They had to stay becos where else to go?

Now you can see that divorce rates are getting higher becos they female does not have to put up with abusive behavior of men and also re-marriage is not frowned upon anymore.
Parents are more supportive of their divorced daughters too.

Society is changing.
Both men and women need to reach a state of co-dependence and not co-dominance...only then there would be actual harmony and not grit and bear or divorce and F off.

 

[kannan]

The question is Respect women autonomy - Does shastra allow that?
"When the Dharma Shastra expects that all religious rites to be done together by wife and husband, it also grants the wife autonomy to decide whether to join or not in the performance of the rites.
It is appropriate, at this juncture, to look for the significance of the newly wedded bride kicking the bowl of rice kept on the door step scattering the rice inside the house. It will seem as an act of grave disrespect as rice is usually regarded as Goddess Lakshmi. It only signifies granting autonomy to the newly wedded wife to act with discretion even in an unfairly manner (called niyoga) to protect and manage the house. (The rice kept at the door step is nothing but symbolic to the families treasures or values being slipped out of the house)."

"Respect for women autonomy is nil in marital relationship but only male authority?"
In any relationship, autonomy can never be 1:1 if they are not exercised in the same direction. Even when they are exercised with out a common purpose, they will only run parallel and will never converge at a point of harmony or common interest.
We also had matriarchal traditions in Kerala where the women enjoyed 100 % autonomy. But it is now disappearing (almost disappeared since it also had several demerits).

"Word Salads I get in a new plate & new thread as well!
Original plate becomes வழ வழ கொழ கொழ - Like வெளக்கெண்ண வாழப்பழம் !"

The point in issue in the present thread from the perspectives of the Brahmin community is naturally to see whether the verdict of the court case is in any way related to the Dharma Shastras. When done, it is also to be realized that the Dharma Shastra also prescribes different codes of conduct for different people according to their Vernas. It will be naturally opposed / rejected from today's perspective where we practice ( or at least preach) equality before law. It was in a way more secular in nature than today that it allowed codes of conduct according to the nature and need of different peoples. When the Court's verdict was also based on religious traditions and practices (which were more distinctly dealt with in Dharma Sastras than any of the present laws) reference to Dharma Shastras is quite relevant and justified.

"Devi to Doormat!"
It was not, It is not and It will never be the intention of the Indian Psyche to relegate Women in any way. There may be deplorable incidents, as crimes happen in society and they are to be dealt with iron hands on case to case basis rather than rushing to such conclusion.

"Hinduism has an impressive capacity to sustain contradictions. Within its fold, Hinduism simultaneously holds dualism and non-dualism; devotion, doubt and denial; self-denying spiritualism and self-gratifying materialism. One such contradiction is the status of women. Hindu mores deify women as the venerable mother, and as formidable goddesses, even as they relegate them to submissive inferiority."

As mentioned above, the character of different communities are different and there can not be any practical common yardstick to measure the social behaviour of people from different quarters, at least today. Perhaps, we can discuss what happens in the Brahmin community First (for bringing about autonomy for Aaj ki nari) which will be much easier to achieve. Of course we can do `copy-cat' the successful strategy to benefit others.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

There may be deplorable incidents, as crimes happen in society and they are to be dealt with iron hands on case to case basis rather than rushing to such conclusion.(#35)

Brazen it out - Don't bother about the cause. - Dharma takes care of such aberrations - Don't waste time to find vaccine - Its no Corona Pandemic - but an endemic in our society!

Of course we can do `copy-cat' the successful strategy to benefit others(35#)

கையில் வெண்ணெய் - நெய்க்கு அலைவானேன்?

Successful strategy on hand Xerox it instead of hunting for strategy in Dharmasastras!

It was not, It is not and It will never be the intention of the Indian Psyche to relegate Women in any way. (#35)

Intention with no action! Dharma should be honoured with Nobel like Obama!

 

[usaiyer]

#30 : female scars and ill treatment of women in marriage is as much of a fact as the night is dark and
the day is bright. Even Eiswarya Roy and Amber heard noteworthy female personalities have not been
spared from this .So when a woman is assertive ,men react even though finally you know who is the
winner.Modern day we call these ego problems accentuated by our purposeless school education and
economic independence of the weaker sex.
Dharma is ossified.rigid and inflexible ? Sanatana Dharma and principles of Dharma emanate from vedas,They are like ISI standards. The standards are for us to follow, The female is the core for the family and she only can help grow the family tree.The male can only play a supportive role.
'Manaivi mudal vadivam,Kanavan pindayavadivam,Mahan muzhumaiyin vadivam"
Man's life is incomplete without having a wife .Man is generally a stronger person than the female.

 

[prasad1]

Man is generally a stronger person than the female.

A man's view I suppose.
A gorilla is stronger than a man, so what.
Brute force is not the only standard of superiority.
Women can be stronger in many ways. They prove it every day.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

So when a woman is assertive men react even though finally you know who is the
winner.Modern day we call these ego problems accentuated by our purposeless school education and
economic independence of the weaker sex.(#37)

Response:

( Women ) weaker sex - should be submissive - Dharma mandated ! பேய்க்கு வாக்கபட்டா புளியமரம் ஏறணும்! Don't go to college - climb up புளியமரம் - shouldn't go up in any other vocation!

Archaic dharma!

பாரதி கண்ணம்மா - is not weak by sex - has enough reason to break dharma! பெண் என்றால் பேய் இரங்காவிடில் பேயை அடித்து விரட்டுவாள்!

Dharma is ossified.rigid and inflexible ?

Dharma and principles of Dharma emanate from vedas,They are like ISI standards. The standards are for us to follow, (37#)

Response:

Standards are regularly upgraded - Dharma never!.

Moved from மாட்டு வண்டி to மாருதி! Maruthi upgraded to BS VI !

 

[prasad1]

Man's life is incomplete without having a wife.

Why were women banned from reciting Gayatri Mantra?
Why was a widow not allowed to inherit her husband's share after his death?

 

[ekaputra]

The Shastras were probably drafted some 3000 years back and served as the Constitutional Laws of those times. It was an age when women were only homemakers. This was true of all countries/ kingdoms/ societies not just Hindu societies where people were guided/ misguided by religious Shastras. There has been a lot of change in the last 200-300 years (and especially in the last 100 years) and it is foolish to apply ancient Dharmic laws in every situation today. It is one thing to boldly abandon evil practices handed down in the name of Shastras but entirely different and even imbecile to judge 3000 year old laws by present day values.

Some 70+ years back, a relatively unorthodox Iyer (my father's very close friend) from a very orthodox Iyer family was betrothed to a woman selected and approved by his parents (purely arranged marriage). At the wedding, the bride's people failed to perform as promised - it turned out that her brother and sister-in-law (Anna and Manni) were the culprits - they had offered to take responsibility and embezzled most of the money. The groom's parents were jeered by their relatives for allowing themselves to be conned and they wanted to cancel the wedding. The groom was stubborn and insisted on going through the marriage for which he was ridiculed by his parents, brothers and even sisters-in-law (Mannimaargal - shamefully, even they could not empathize with the bride) and other relatives and even labelled as a "Pondatti Dasan". Due to this ostracism (in the family and family-friends' circle), they faced a great deal of hardship including monetary problems but, thanks to their strength and courage, they raised their children well who in turn did much better than almost all their cousins. If such a thing (trying to stop the wedding) happened today it is the groom's parents who would become social outcasts. How values have changed in just 70 years!

And are traditional values being misused only by men? Is the traditonal and indeed venerable concept of "Mata, Pita, Guru" not being wantonly misinterpreted and misused by mothers to force sons to acquiesce at "Maamiyaar Kodumai"?

 

[prasad1]

Well written post Ekaputraji.

Manusmriti was composed roughly around 200 CE (Common Era). We know this because it refers to Saka (North West tribes) and Cheen (China) who established contact with India around this time. It also refers to gold coins which, as per archaeological evidence, were first used around this period.

 

[usaiyer]

#40 why women were banned from reciting Gayatri mantra?
In Dharma-sastra ,there is more responsibility for men and women get due respect.Because she is not given the sacred thread.a woman is not given gayatri.(Swami Dayananda Saraswati)
At the time of marriage,the man gets one more sacred thread to wear which is of his wife.This means that with the permission of wife only the husband can start the the homa or ritual and the wife can prepare the naivedya ,the food offering at the ritual.Ref: 'Prayer guide' by Swamiji,pp65,

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Ritual of fasting for the longevity of the husband is prescribed (காரடையான் நோம்பு in south Karva Chauth in the north) but the longevity of wife is no concern of husband? Well widower can again get a wife to pray for his longevity! Fasting for husband's longevity is women's duty - obviously men have no such spouse duty.!

 

[prasad1]

#40 why women were banned from reciting Gayatri mantra?
In Dharma-sastra ,there is more responsibility for men and women get due respect.Because she is not given the sacred thread.a woman is not given gayatri.(Swami Dayananda Saraswati)
At the time of marriage,the man gets one more sacred thread to wear which is of his wife.This means that with the permission of wife only the husband can start the the homa or ritual and the wife can prepare the naivedya ,the food offering at the ritual.Ref: 'Prayer guide' by Swamiji,pp65,

If that wife does not agree or unable to do his bidding, he can find another wife.

1. “Swabhav ev narinam …..” – 2/213. It is the nature of women to seduce men in this world; for that reason the wise are never unguarded in the company of females.

2. “Avidvam samlam………..” – 2/214. Women, true to their class character, are capable of leading astray men in this world, not only a fool but even a learned and wise man. Both become slaves of desire.

3. No sacrifice, no vow, no fast must be performed by women apart (from their husbands); if a wife obeys her husband, she will for that (reason alone) be exalted in heaven.

4. “Pita rakhshati……….” – 9/3. Since women are not capable of living independently, she is to be kept under the custody of her father as child, under her husband as a woman and under her son as widow.

5. “Na asti strinam………” – 9/18. While performing namkarm and jatkarm, Vedic mantras are not to be recited by women, because women are lacking in strength and knowledge of Vedic texts. Women are impure and represent falsehood.

6. “Vandyashtamay…….” – 9/80. A barren wife may be superseded in the 8th year; she whose children die may be superseded in the 10th year and she who bears only daughters may be superseded in the 11th year; but she who is quarrelsome may be superseded without delay.


I think Manusmrity and its kind should be kept in a museum.

 

[krish44]

Women of this generation can get autonomy only by keeping the TB seniors in an old age home and banishing shastras and manusmriti from homes.
No old TB is going to ever respect womens autonomy. voluntarily .It is a dream for women

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Women of this generation can get autonomy only by keeping the TB seniors in an old age home and banishing shastras and manusmriti from homes.

Response:

I keep a safe social distance - will not cross the Lakshman Rekha ( no pun intended - my d in l s name Rekha!) So my d in ls don't have to look for senior citizen home for me for her autonomy! Buy will alway give her my support


No old TB is going to ever respect womens autonomy. voluntarily .It is a dream for women

Response:

Varalakshmi viratham on Friday . My d in l suggested that we can celebrate with 2 Kalasams in her flat. I suggested that she should do her pooja independently - I respect her autonomy in every activity!

Click on expand to.see the message

 

[krish44]

You are an exceptional senior citizen.
As a matter of curiousity what is kept in kalasam
Sorry I am very ignorant about this. What is the vratham for?. Do you go hungry for the whole day?

 

[krish44]

I understand thhat varalakshmi vratham is not observes by vaishnavite brahmins. Is that correct?

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

You can see my Varalakshmi - file photo -

அம்மன் முகம்

அம்மன் on கலசம் with அலங்காரம்

This pooja was not thrust on me - My mother used to do it. Usually M in L initiate the D in L - புக்காத்து வழக்கம் carried on by மாட்டுபொண் ! In my case it is not புக்காத்து Tradition - In fact I broke the tradition took to my பொறந்தாத்து tradition Viratham is not my புக்காத்து வழக்கம் My mother initiated me into this & my மாமியார் approved with no hesitation This pooja is performed by சுமங்கலிகள் for சுபிஷ்ஷம் !

Kalasam is small metallic சொம்பு (வெங்கலம் or silver - mine silver) -மஞ்ஜள் coated குடுமி தேங்காய் fixed in the சொம்பு - குடுமி upwards - on to this அம்மன் முகம் fixed & alangaram done which takes about 6 hrs for me I start at about 8 PM on Thursday after பலகாரம் may go till mid night ! பட்ணி till the pooja is over on Friday!

Both my DIL do this pooja Traditionally DIL parents give them சொம்பு & அம்மன் முகம் (silver) as ஆடி சீர் & you star the viratham immediately after marraige My 2DIL is glued to traditional - asked me to initiate her to this விரதம் immediately after marriage . My 1DIL had no idea & I never suggest this to her - When she heard from DIL2 about her visit to Madurai for initiation, she (1DIL) phoned me up said ,she also wants take up this - I said fine Please come.

Again Break away from the tradition "immediately after Marriage" - by me. She was in US then!


The pooja is performed Donning மடிசார் - 1DIL landed in Madurai with out her 9 yds Koorai! She was terribly embarrassed and was rushing to Haji Moosa to buy one - Take it easy you can do the pooja in 6 yds saree I encouragingly ! ( Tradition broken again) After this embarrassment she is religiously in 9yds in all family function (Religious)

வைஸ்யா do this - why not வைஷ்ணவா? My ஐயங்கார் friends daughter used help me - packing பிரசாதம் - தாம்பூலம் குடுக்கறது till she left Madurai after her marriage . They can also do this - Jihadis may issue Fatwa!