Return of the Brahmin

[CHANDRU1849]

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Integrity of politician is in-born. Caste has no role.

Earlier, there was a direct fight between BJP and Congress in Delhi. Once Delhi was a citadel of BJP. Madan Lal Khurana, when he was the CM of Delhi, maintained the State well. Many thought Congress had no chance to rule Delhi. But, due to caste war between Bs and Thakurs (Sushma Swaraj / Sahib Singh Verma), BJP had to give way for Congress, which ruled the State continuously for three terms. Sahib Singh Verma died in a car accident.

As already said, of the four important portfolios at the Centre now, three are Bs and other one is a Thakur. Of the three, two are seniors and they demanded plum posts, which Modi obliged.

Manohar Parikkar, who is an IITan, had done a good job for Goa, which one of the few States, having direct fight between BJP and Congress, with sizeable Christian population. The Dy.Chief Minister of Goa is a Christian. The reason for Parikkar's transfer is not known, though he was not interested to go to Centre. BJP may probably feel the heat in the State election in Goa next time.

There are good NB candidates in BJP who can also deliver. Because of caste politics, there is no Minister from B community in TN for the last 47 years, despite a CM from B community ruled the State. Even during MGR's time, the B minister was a Kannadiga.

Equal distribution is always desirable in States and Centre. Otherwise, what is the point in crying Bs are being neglected in TN Politics.

 

[krish44]

Chandruji
Brahmins also have to take the initiative to feel counted in politics.

in places like kerala or karnataka they are politically agile and take care of their interests,

in tamilnadu , they want someone to push everything down their throats for their benefit which is unlikely to happen.

brahmins are incapable of talking in one voice to fulfill their political aspirations and make space for themselves in politics.

whoever made it in centre with tamilnadu origin ,it is because of their own enterprise and tamilnadu had nothing to do with it

 

[renuka]

Doctor Mam,

Good one. Expected this in the first page itself.

Dear Sir,

I wanted to wait till the thread was active and then say this!LOL

It will have a better "effect".

 

[renuka]

If competence and ability is the criterion, Brahmins will occupy most of the positions in any organisation including the govt.

Let it be..what a country need is results.

But if what you say is true than how did Modi become PM when he is not a Brahmin.

 

[krish44]

Let it be..what a country need is results.

But if what you say is true than how did Modi become PM when he is not a Brahmin.

Modi had an organisation which had brahmins at the helm backing him.

he made it with their goodwill and manpower support.

he might have to pay a huge political price for it.

he has to support all hindutva causes , promise to purify ganga and yamuna, take steps to build ram temple in ayodhya and have couple of saffron clad people in his

cabinet.

he would be left only with oratory if he displeases the sangh parivar

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Chandruji
Brahmins also have to take the initiative to feel counted in politics.

in places like kerala or karnataka they are politically agile and take care of their interests,

in tamilnadu , they want someone to push everything down their throats for their benefit which is unlikely to happen.

brahmins are incapable of talking in one voice to fulfill their political aspirations and make space for themselves in politics.

whoever made it in centre with tamilnadu origin ,it is because of their own enterprise and tamilnadu had nothing to do with it

Sir,

Recognition in Indian Politics is based on population. B population in TN is less than 3%. Impact is not possible even in one constituency. Added to this, some B politicians' attitude makes B's position in TN precarious. Bs have some say in Karnataka - Ramakrishna Hegde, Gundu Rao, Ananthamurthy etc.

How Bs are politically agile in Kerala is not known. Is there any B minister in Kerala Govt?

 

[sarang]

This type analysis is wrong and outdated. All jatis had a say and share in the national politics before independence. Current environment too is not jati centred as in UP, haryana, Maharashtra. It is the duty of all responsible leaders and public to talk less of caste based politics. Modi is able to attract and influence all and we will soon get 'jati neutral' govts in states as well.

 

[sarang]

Let brahmins be practising brahmins in personal life. And contribute to society as our elders did. There is no conflict at all.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Let brahmins be practising brahmins in personal life. And contribute to society as our elders did. There is no conflict at all.

:clap2:

 

[krish44]

This type analysis is wrong and outdated. All jatis had a say and share in the national politics before independence. Current environment too is not jati centred as in UP, haryana, Maharashtra. It is the duty of all responsible leaders and public to talk less of caste based politics. Modi is able to attract and influence all and we will soon get 'jati neutral' govts in states as well.

your contention that politics is not caste based does not appear to be correct.

modi can influence voters to vote for bjp candidates who are RSS loyalists.

RSS believes in varna system and is dominated by pracharaks of higher castes and has a caste bias which is reflected in choice of candidates for polls.

what indian voters are getting into , they know.

they will vote according to their preference for those who will suit them.

they will reject also those who do not live upto their expectations

 

[sarang]

That is what I am saying. Indian voters are free from the Maya of caste politics and will elect able candidates. And the party which eschews caste politics will emerge successful. This has happened in the recent assembly and parliament elections. Why rss, many support varnasrama. In RSS no one asks to which varna or jati one belongs to at any time. You must not be swayed by the medias and secular madness. I am not an RSS member.
In the last two years, here, many IT professionals have joined RSS attracted by its values.

 

[krish44]

Let brahmins be practising brahmins in personal life. And contribute to society as our elders did. There is no conflict at all.

Brahmins can behave only as humanbeings with respect for other humanbeings.

all this varna theories are bunkum.

if one claims superiority due to virtue of birth , he needs only condemnation and unfit for human interaction.

only varnas and castes create conflict .

we are humans and we will transact with other humans without thinking of caste ,creed or religion.

this sums up my philosophy .

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Let brahmins be practising brahmins in personal life. And contribute to society as our elders did. There is no conflict at all.

sarang sir, do you mean to say, brahmins must be confined to the sanctum sanctorums of temples and to ritualistic duties and shall strictly not pursue after other professions! please clarify sir!

 

[CHANDRU1849]

I would like to know in which part of India, Indian voters are free from maya of caste. Is it the case in TN? Each and every political party has vote bank, either based on caste or religion.

Can a B contest and win an election in TN from a constituency predominantly dominated by a particular NB community? It will not happen even in a dream.

If RSS' ideology was well accepted in TN, then BJP would have won more Lok Sabha seats instead of one.

 

[sangom]

I would like to know in which part of India, Indian voters are free from maya of caste. Is it the case in TN? Each and every political party has vote bank, either based on caste or religion.

Can a B contest and win an election in TN from a constituency predominantly dominated by a particular NB community? It will not happen even in a dream.

If RSS' ideology was well accepted in TN, then BJP would have won more Lok Sabha seats instead of one.

What is RSS' ideology? In reality it is the dominance of a particular strain of hinduism nurtured by the RSS' leaders. But in India, hinduism itself is so very diverse. For example, we Keralites used to honour Mahabali during Onam but of late, the emphasis has silently moved over to Vamana and then to Krishna, Vishnu, Padmanabha, etc. Old timers like myself feel it is sacrilege of the Keralites' belief system; same is the offensive (to us) practice of dressing up thousands of very young kids in the attire of Krishna and making them walk through tarred roads on Gokulashtami day. In Kerala we did not even know of Raksha Bandhan. But all these invasive practices have now come.

RSS and its ideologies may not therefore be wholeheartedly be welcomed everywhere in India. Caste system (whether good or bad) is thousands of times stronger in the minds of people and it will be a very potent vote catching device.

 

[krish44]

sangomji
As per my understanding , there are two types of brahmins in kerala.

the namboodris who in association with nairs considered a lower caste mostly in southern kerala actively promoted a caste system forcing ezhavas/thiyas to

perform demeaning tasks and follow a degraded lifestyle. Namboodiris came from indus valley with parasurama , a kshatriya and they enforced a social order , with all

lands appropriated by namboodris with help of kshatriya nairs.

the other brahmin class originally tamil brahmins settled in north kerala , called palghat brahmins with tamil as mother tongue .

the travancore rajas on encouragement from tamil brahmins defied the namboodris and promoted worship of hindu gods such as

guruvayoorappan , padmanabhaswamy etc

They also helped the rajas drive all namboodris to south of kerala.

the legends of vamana , mahabali etc are creations of namboodri class.

conversions to christianity is believed due to atrocities of kerala brahmins on others .

muslims are considered to be there due to invasion of tipu sultan of parts of kerala.

the two strains of brahmins ie kerala and tamil brahmins coexist in different parts of kerala.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Sir,

It is said that RSS has more shakas (branches) in Kerala than other places.

Coming to Mahabali story:

To my little knowledge about him, I think, he was a very kind hearted king who rules his place very well. People were also very happy. Suddenly, God came in front of him and asked for three feet of land, which he was unable to give. As a result, he lost and probably died. But the people prayed to God to spare him at least for one day to see his people and the God obliged. His visit is called Onam, which is an important festival for Hindus, and even Christians and Muslims are celebrating it. People in and around Nagercoil are also celebrating it. My ex-boss who was a Protestant Christian (he is a liberal) used to give sweets on that day.

Is my understanding about Mahabali correct?

My question is:

1. Why did God punish a very kind hearted King who was very popular among his people. What did the God want to say by his act? Does God also have ego and unable to digest the popularity of a king? What is the logic in it?

2. Kerala is the first Communist State in India and the literacy rate is very high. Despite this, how come Keralites believe that a human being, after his death, visited his place to see people on a designated day? It seems Keralities are also sentimental, besides emotional.

 

[sangom]

sangomji

Shri Krish44 Sir,

May be you have not got the Kerala history somewhat jumbled because you are so far away. It will be a rather long post if I were to write all the details; in order to avoid that I am just giving very short, to-the-point replies below.

As per my understanding , there are two types of brahmins in kerala.

Yes.

the namboodris who in association with nairs considered a lower caste mostly in southern kerala actively promoted a caste system forcing ezhavas/thiyas to

perform demeaning tasks and follow a degraded lifestyle.

The Namboodiris did not have an "association" with nairs. Due to factors/reasons which are still unclear, the Namboodiris were able to lord it over all the rest of the Kerala population. The only area to which their (Nambudiris') dominance did not extend completely was the hill tribes and Adivasis. The caste system in Kerala was very peculiar; there were more than 1000 castes at the turn of the 19th./20th. century and, even within the nairs there were nearly 100 different sub-castes some of whom were untouchable even to the higher group of nairs! Because of the dominance of Nambudiris and the labyrinthine caste system, the ezhavas/thiyyas, parayas, pulayas and a whole lot of the lower castes had to do their prescribed duties in what was a predominantly agricultural economy with spices occupying an important place.

Namboodiris came from indus valley with parasurama , a kshatriya and they enforced a social order , with all

lands appropriated by namboodris with help of kshatriya nairs.

Nambudiris were/are not kshatriyas; they have been true vedic brahmanas but a bit too orthodox. There is adequate evidence that the Nambudiris must have originated in the Krishna-Godavari delta although no Nambudiri has any idea and all of them will rely on the Parasurama story! Nairs were like kshatriyas, going out every morning with a sword and shield in hand and with licence to behead any low-caste person who even accidentally came nearer than the prescribed distance from the nair, or anybody polluting him by touch, etc. But please note that this authority was enjoyed by only the highest rungs of the nair caste and not by anybody and everybody who was a "nair".

the other brahmin class originally tamil brahmins settled in north kerala , called palghat brahmins with tamil as mother tongue .

The tabras came through the Palghat mountain pass into Palghat areas but there was sizeable influx of tabras from the TN to the west of the ghats (into Kerala) through other mountain trade routes like Kambam-Bodinayakkanur, Shencottah - Thenmala, etc., also. That is why even today many matrimonial ads specify Palghat Brahmin as different from tamil brahmin of Kerala. Besides, the southernmost and somewhat more ancient Chera dominion of Tiruvithamcode (Travancore) was always connected by land through the Aralvaimozhi pass to Tamil land right through historical times of the Pandyas and Chozhas.

the travancore rajas on encouragement from tamil brahmins defied the namboodris and promoted worship of hindu gods such as

guruvayoorappan , padmanabhaswamy etc

They also helped the rajas drive all namboodris to south of kerala.

The Travancore rajas belong to the aay dynasty of Yadavas. The namboodiris did not consider them as kshatriyas for a long time and were therefore reluctant to settle down in that kingdom. Tamil brahmins did not have any say or role till about 1750 A.D. when Marthanda Varma established the modern, large Travancore state and had one Ramayyan, a Tabra of the Sanketi sub-sect as his trusted lietuenant, C-in-C and friend.

The Guruvayur temple belonged to the Samoothiris of Kozhikode and was never under the Travancore kings. (In fact we came to know of guruvayur and a temple there only as late as in the 1950's. It was practically unknown to the average Travancorean till then!

the legends of vamana , mahabali etc are creations of namboodri class.

The Mahabali legend seems to be the common heritage of both the Keralites and a part of the people in the adjacent Pandyanadu because the Nayaks of Madurai claimed their lineage from Mahabali. I have always felt that our Onam festival derives from a tribal memory of a lost glorious ancient times (just as the BJP today seems to have!) which was destroyed by a puny Vamana or Brahmana. It is thus an anti-brahmana statement of legendary protest. But we, tabras of Travancore, also used to celebrate it just as the rest of the people used to do.

conversions to christianity is believed due to atrocities of kerala brahmins on others .

Conversion to Christianity is a result of our caste system, not necessarily to be blamed upon the Kerala brahmins (?). The Britishers tried converting brahmins to Christianity in their early days of East India Company in the foolish belief that if brahmins converted, the rest of the caste rungs below them will automatically flock to their churches. In course of time, the Englishmen realized that the lower castes had absolutely no such love for their brahmins. So, then their missionaries found it easier to attract the lowest castes (the most oppressed) into their flock and that is the pattern the Church is still, very successfully, following even today in most states of India!

muslims are considered to be there due to invasion of tipu sultan of parts of kerala.

Muslims formed a part of the Malabar society right from the times when the arabs were coming to the Malabar for spices. They eventually established a settlement in Kozhikode and, in due course, a large godown facility also of their own, to store the spices for exports. Then the samuthiri of Kozhikode (the Zamorin) found that the arabs as also their local progeny, the Moplahs or Muslims were very able sailors and warriors at sea who protected the Zamorin's spice trade from pirates. So he promulgated a royal edict that every lower caste hindu family (i.e., nairs and downwards) should bring up at least one son in each family as a Moplah. This resembles the much later Sikh custom. Hence Muslims were an integral part of the Malabar and, later, Kerala social fabric from historical times.

the two strains of brahmins ie kerala and tamil brahmins coexist in different parts of kerala.

I don't know what you mean by "the two strains". Nambudiris considered tabras as avoidable nuisance and tabras had to perforce bow down to the Nambudiris as long as the caste hegemony existed. After Independence, all are 'coexisting' if we may say so.

 

[sangom]

Sir,

It is said that RSS has more shakas (branches) in Kerala than other places.

I have no authentic info. but to the best of my knowledge RSS/BJP etc., have only lukewarm reception in Kerala till now. Hence, the possibility of more Shakhas, etc., is very remote.

Coming to Mahabali story:

To my little knowledge about him, I think, he was a very kind hearted king who rules his place very well. People were also very happy. Suddenly, God came in front of him and asked for three feet of land, which he was unable to give. As a result, he lost and probably died. But the people prayed to God to spare him at least for one day to see his people and the God obliged. His visit is called Onam, which is an important festival for Hindus, and even Christians and Muslims are celebrating it. People in and around Nagercoil are also celebrating it. My ex-boss who was a Protestant Christian (he is a liberal) used to give sweets on that day.

Is my understanding about Mahabali correct?

The legend goes that Vamana measured all the worlds by his two feet and asked Mahabali where the third foot-length is, to which Bali replied that Vamana may place his foot on Bali's head itself. Vamana did accordingly, and, as per his set agenda, pushed Mahabali down to the netherworlds (Paathaala lokam). This much you will get from puranas written in Sanskrit. But the Keralites have something more to add. Mahabali said that he loved his subjects so deeply that he would like to come at least once a year on that very same day (Thiruvonam star in Simha maasam) and see for himself how happy (or unhappy) his people were, under Vamana's rule and this request was granted.

So, we believe that on that day every year Mahabali comes to see how we are faring and we feel it is our foremost duty to present ourselves in the best of cheer and happiness to our dear old noble ruler so that he will return satisfied. We feel Vamana (Brahmana) tricked our dear emperor because he tried to aspire for the position of Indra which did not suit the brahmin interests (yes, I am a brahmin but more than that I am a Keralite!). BTW, the Nambudiris also used to celebrate Onam in the exact same way although they represented Vamana's side more.

My question is:

1. Why did God punish a very kind hearted King who was very popular among his people. What did the God want to say by his act? Does God also have ego and unable to digest the popularity of a king? What is the logic in it?

2. Kerala is the first Communist State in India and the literacy rate is very high. Despite this, how come Keralites believe that a human being, after his death, visited his place to see people on a designated day? It seems Keralities are also sentimental, besides emotional.

I am not a confirmed pro-brahmin spokesperson. I believe that the people who had the vedas spread all over the country and put to death many local tribal chieftains etc., and established their hegemony over the vast populations of tribals everywhere. Then they "legalized" all their illegal conquests by creating mythical stories and put them in their concocted puranas which became scriptures, in course of time.

In such a grand obfuscation of reality, items like Onam at least serve as a very feeble reminder to impartial people to discern the evils of the past. And, that is why I still observe Onam. Even if Mahabali was killed, can we not observe one day in his honour when we do so for countless others like Gandhi, Nehru, Indira, Rajeev, etc? Does that mean all Indians are emotional and sentimental? What about Thanksgiving day in the US?

 

[krish44]

Dear sangomji

Whatever I have quoted is straight from the net and posted by keralites themselves.

If you google kerala brahmins, you might locate these.

I have nowhere said that Namboodhri are kshatriyas.I have said they came from indus valley and came to kerala journeying along the west coast. I only said

Kshatriyas starting with parasurama dominated the kerala scene . Nairs who are kshatriya warriour clan gave protection to namboodris to usurp all lands

and Namboodris used them for controlling castes lower in heirarchy such as ezhavas ,thiyas etc. Cruelty towards lower castes was maximum in kerala

Your contention that they are from krishna -godavari belt - I have not read anywhere nor any namboodri would accept . Most also stand by parasurama story.

Nairs gave protection to namboodris who were higher caste it is believed.

It is believed that the superiority of brahmins lay in declaring Mahabali as a asura destroyed by a puny brahmin as you have suggested.yet all keralites celebrate it as

their own festival -all brahmins included.

when and from where tamil brahmins came to kerala , I have not talked about .Thanks for info .

I did read from in the web that travancore rajas depended on them to drive out namboodris from north kerala.

As for conversion to christianity , all syrian christians claim their ancestors were namboodris.

As for muslims are concerned , the arab traders mixing with local kerala women were the original mopla muslims

Later tipu invaded and added more muslims by converting locals later.

most of dewans to travancore rajas were tamil brahmins.

the last being Ramaswamy iyer who tried for the independance of the princely state without success.

I have nothing to do with kerala nor I have any relatives there

My interest in it is more out of curiousity than anything else

 

[Vaagmi]

Brahmins can behave only as humanbeings with respect for other humanbeings.

all this varna theories are bunkum.

if one claims superiority due to virtue of birth , he needs only condemnation and unfit for human interaction.

only varnas and castes create conflict .

we are humans and we will transact with other humans without thinking of caste ,creed or religion.

this sums up my philosophy .

Dear krish44ji,

I have a friend, who was my classmate in college, whom I happened to meet a few days back in a marriage. We discussed a lot of things to catch up with the years. The gist of his philosophy was this:

He does not know why he wears a poonool. He does not bother to know either. Most of the time it hangs in the wardrobe along with his shirt. On the days of amavasya only he remembers it, searches for it and wears it without much fuss because on that day a vadhyar comes chasing him without fail and expects him to perform the tharpanam. He is least bothered about performing the tharpanam but his wife will be upset if he does not do that and so he takes the help of vadhyar and performs it. He does not believe that there exists any pitr.

he did not bother to tell his children anything about what is being a brahmin means (because he himself did not know) and so they have grown up picking up values on the way as they thought fit and found attractive. They eat mutton and pork. They drink a lot though they are not yet alcoholics. They have all(three out of four) married from other communities and races. He has given nothing to them but unconditional love. They studied well (because of their God given genes) and so they are on their own. He candidly admitted that he did not know what to give them as values. One of them(living in London) has already divorced and is going steady with another man which may end up in a marriage.

At times he feels bad that he is not like other middle class brahmins in India whom he happens to meet in marriage etc ., (He said he is envious of them). But then he wonders what is it that he missed.

He is all at sea. But does not even know why?

But he is very vehement about one thing. That there should be no caste. It should be one grand homogeneous mass in which castes stand abolished. The solution according to him is intercaste marriages. I somehow got an impression that he was voicing " யாம் பெற்ற துன்பம் பெருக இவ்வையகம்" concept. LOL.

 

[krish44]

vaagmiji
I liked the last line in tamil' Yaam petra .....Evvaiyagam'

What I could not understand why your friend is unhappy about the way he has lived his life.?

If he had nothing to give as special values to his children , he gave unconditional love or he did not believe in caste ,it is not unholy or a crime.

He has enabled his children to make their own choices and he should feel proud IMHO

 

[Vaagmi]

vaagmiji

What I could not understand why your friend is unhappy about the way he has lived his life.?

That is perhaps because he has realised the futility of the way he has lived this far. The way he has failed in his duties to his children.

If he had nothing to give as special values to his children , he gave unconditional love or he did not believe in caste ,it is not unholy or a crime.

Perhaps because of the late realisation that unconditional love does not compensate the failure to give values. and values and love are not mutually exclusive.

He has enabled his children to make their own choices and he should feel proud IMHO

He felt perhaps that he had not equipped his children to take the right decisions/choices. His regret was perhaps that he lost a lifetime of opportunities to give his children the values which would have helped them take better decisions than what they took.

My view: sometimes expecting children to take decisions without adequate equipment is like "குருவியின் தலையில் பனங்காயை சுமத்துவது போல".

 

[sarang]

Brahmins have always worked from itihasic days as kings, ministers, teachers, professionals, architects, doctors, advisors, planners, strategists, accountants and in every profession one can think off. There is no conflict in practicing a brahmin way of life and loukika family/society supporting way of life with earned money. How can brahmins can do dana if they don't earn? Don't be misled by the false argument advanced by brahmin haters here and elsewhere.

sarang sir, do you mean to say, brahmins must be confined to the sanctum sanctorums of temples and to ritualistic duties and shall strictly not pursue after other professions! please clarify sir!

 

[sarang]

Which strain of hinduism is nurtured by RSS. This is a wild shot without any basis or substance. It is a contradiction in terms. Any hindu follows his dharma but respects others. Which strain of hinduism was nurtured by vivekananda or any hindu leader or organization to the detriment of other strains of hinduism. Your statement is hollow.

What is RSS' ideology? In reality it is the dominance of a particular strain of hinduism nurtured by the RSS' leaders.