• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Same gothram marriage

Status
Not open for further replies.
C RAVI

C RAVI

0
Once existed this thread that had lots of explanations and justifications both in favor and against of Same Gothram Marriage...


I am proud to be a Brahmin....But many a times I feel sorry for it...Please excuse me if I am offending any one....But there are some hard facts that bothers all of us a lot....

I don't understand as why we Brahmins can't make our life simple by adopting practical approach to our lives???

We all know what is the bottom line of following "GOTHRAM" while making alliance. A boy and a girl from Same gothram constitutes brother-sister relationship.

And this formula is based on Rishis representing different Gothrams some thousand of years back.

I could not understand the logic behind formulating such a restriction based on past dated and ambiguous identity that restricts a Brahmin Boy to get into love and or getting into formal proposal with a Brahmin girl next door (who is no way related).

In order to strictly following this system, parents are delaying their Son / Daughter's marriage...

Unlike other religion we believe and strictly follow matching horoscope (in arrange marriages). We all know that this is the toughest part of the selection process.

If the expectations of a boy and a girl matches well, the horoscope may not be matching and the vice versa.

If at all surprisingly the expectations and horoscope matches all together, same Gothram identity would at last make everything useless and senseless. Ultimately the marriages get delayed.

Due to such unwanted system of same gothram marriage denial, girls and boys start making their own selection unmindful of partner's Religion and Cast...Else would deviate from the path of their chastity.

In Islam as we know there exist only two communities…1) SHIYA MUSLIMS & 2) SUNNA MUSLIMS. But there are no further classifications with-in each community….This makes their marriages easy. They can marry a girl / boy even from different county. For example a Tamil Muslim boy can marry a Srilankan Muslim girl and vice versa as long as both the party belong to the same community. Like wise a U.A.E. national can marry a girl from India who belongs to the same community......there are many alike.



My question is -

1) CAN'T SENIOR, LEARNED AND INFLUENCED BRAHMIN MEMBERS TAKE AN INITIATIVE TO CURB THE EXISTANCE OF SUCH A SYSTEM IN OUR SOCIETY?

2) CAN'T THIS SYSTEM BE PUT TO AN END BY EFFECTIVELY PROPOGANDING AMONG BRAHMIN COMMUNITIES THROUGH ANY OF THE EFFECTIVE MEDIAM SO THAT EVERY FAMILY WOULD ACCEPT THE CHANGE WITHOUT FEELING ASHAMED?

Unless we Brahmins take the initiative to open the "Pandora's Box" and be proactive to eradicate unwanted and baseless believes, the confusions, complications, embarrassments and the fear of losing Brahmins identity in due course of time will all be for ever.


Cheers..

RAVI


 
Sri Ravi,

I am not a senior member (neither by joining date nor by age).

We enquire about the gothram as the first question. If the Gothram is the same, there will not be any more conversation regarding marriage proposals. so, there will be no situation where everything else matches perfectly except for Gothram. that's an oxymoron situation, never exists. (Or should not happen. Enquiring the Gothram should be 1st question as far as I was told).

Yes, Gothrams goes back 1,000s of years. If our ancestors did not strictly avoided same Gothram marriages, in-breeding would have occured and our intelligence capacity would have taken a nose dive; we would have ended up retarded. If you need an example, check Tasmania, Australia. Only in 200 years, there were so many mentally challenged children were born due to in-breeding, If you live in canada, Ontario, check about the people in Keswick (actually not the proper town, but the old town, in the north). I am very glad our ancestors put the restriction on the same Gothram marriages.

If a Brahmin boy has a Brahmin girl next door belonging to the same Gothram, she is his sister. Period. There is no question of falling in love with her. (when i was young, I fell in love with a girl. before I even spoke to her, I found her Gothram).

Regards,

Raghy.

Dear moderators,

Sri ravi has mentioned something about Islam and Muslims (which are not correct). Am I allowed to talk about other religions in this forum? (Only this morning I edited one of my post. Only sometime after posting that message I remembered where I posted that message). Please let me know. Thank you.
 
Last edited:
raghy,

please treat this as a note from me, not as a moderator, but as a member only. ok?

i will give my take on your second query. ofcourse, i think, other religions can be discussed. as long as it is not in an offensive manner to the practioners of those.

a guideline? treat the other religions, as you would like them to treat you. hope that helps.

re keswick, ontario or tasmania, the instances of interbreeding is within same families in the successive generations, i think. many small southern u.s. town white populations are like that too, i am told.

this is not much unlike, we ourselves marrying athai's son/daughter or mama's son/daughter. these are close to us in genes, and i think, it has been proved, that probability of unhealthy mutations increase.

imagine, two generations of mama, athai son/daughter marriages. that is like 75% of your own gene marrying the same.

yet we accept these marriages, because these are of different gothras.

re gothras, i know of some, who cannot even trace any common relationships. yet there is a stigma to marriage relationships here.

i think, saha gothra marriage, is shunned, more on sentimental or faith reasons nowadays. that is ok too, for it is faith that defines us.

but, to quote scientific basis for such, may be a bit far fetched. or indeed very difficult to prove.

personally, i think, it is best to shun marriages between first or second cousins, from both sides of the family.

thank you.
 
Last edited:
Kunjuppu ji...

Hats off to your crystal clear explanations on both the stance...


Cheers...

RAVI
 
Sri Kunjuppu,

Thanks for your reply.

Personally, I am not an advocate for marriages between athai/mama's son/daughter. As you rightly mentioned, although different Gothrams, still will be considered as in-marriage. I have seen birth difficiencies from such marriages.
I have seen only one couple who married saha Gothram. I don't think they would divulge that information willy nilly; they divulged that to us. Other than that couple, I have not come across any one else.
Many Gothrams are same for Vaishnavas and Smarthas. Yes, the gene would have diluted so much after so many generations, possibly marriage in such situation may not have any ill effect. In the olden days, with the transportation facility they had, they would not have gone too far seeking alliances. So, saha Gothra people would have been related with in 3 to 5 generations. So, it makes sense when they avoided that. Present case is different.
But still, personally I will not prefer a saha Gothra bride for my son (as I mentioned in an other thread, I don't mind a bride from a different caste altogether!)

About the other religion- there are over 20 different sects in that religion that I came across. I was told that there are many more. Intersect marriages do not take place. I read news about people getting killed for attempting such a mixture.
as sriman Ravi mentioned, Tamil Boy could marry a Srilankan girl from the same sect. But a Tamil boy or an Indian boy of the same religion, same sect can not marry an UAE girl or any Middle East girl. I am not mentioning all the countries here. If a Tamil boy attempt that, he can forget his head. yes, an UAE man can marry anyone (even different religions).

regards,

Raghy.
 
Shri Ravi ji,

Without waiting for elders to help turn the tide, if possible, please do think in terms of taking things in your own hands.

Many times good matches are turned down due to swagothra or lack of jathakam porutham.

Please marry someone who you like and who likes you; without giving undue importance to gothras and horoscopes matching.

With constant prayers to God and the willingness to adapt and grow as a family, i do not think God will be so cruel to cause any form of ruin to a family, if a bride / groom were to be the same gothra or not have a horoscope match.

Best wishes.
 
Shri Raghy ji,

I have indicated that a TAMIL MUSLIM BOY can very well marry a SRILANKAN MUSLIM GIRLS...And likewise A UAE MAN CAN MARRY A INDIAN MUSLIM GIRL of same community ( SHIYA / SUNNA)

You are true that only UAE Man can marry Indian Muslim Girl...Ironically Indian Muslim Boy can not marry UAE Muslim girl. I know this fact.

Please be noted that this particular bias is a sort of social restriction in all the GCC countries. These sort of differences are for the benefit of GCC Men for their interest of not running short of local girls (as a matter of fact their population is much lower comparatively). Thus such a restriction exists...

The point of discussion here is not about such discriminations...Perhaps the good scope of marriage in general....

Not only on the international level, but even on the national level this is the flexibility for the Muslim Community....A Mumbai Sunna boy can marry a Tamil Sunna girl....Offcourse objections may arise by the parents because of differences in language, style of cooking and other day to day practices, but will not be a religious issue.

On a wider point of view marriage in a Muslim community is a very simple and casual occasion...Where as in Brahmin community it is the ONE OF THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE LIFE.


Cheers....

RAVI
 
Shri Pannvalan ji & Mrs.Happy Hindu,

I agree with you both in terms of a boy or girl acting smart and choosing the life partner from the same community unmindful of Gothram and Horoscope Match.

That is in fact the perfect way to overcome marriage hurdles that today's boy and girls can carry out.

But this is not as easy as we can think about. In this busy mechanical life it would be almost impossible to keep looking for a Brahmin girl / Brahmin boy whose frequency would be matching to become a life partner. Generally in such an attempt eligible single Brahmins get into love with any one from different religion or cast. If this continuous than there would not be any cast called Brahmin in future.


Thus if our parents who can actively involve in finding alliance at large get awareness, have the right mindset, avoid making demands & uniformly get out of the stigma of avoiding same gothram marriages, things would be easier of the eligible single to get married.

I wish there should not be any opposition in our community by parents at least religious wise against boy and girls getting into love within Brahmin community, doesn’t matter if the love is between Iyer & Iyengar, between Thenkala & Vadakalai Iyengars, between Vadamal / Brecharnam / Vathima / Ashtasahasram, between same Gothram…etc. And our society as a group should endorse all such marriages with out any negative comments & oppositions.

THIS WOULD HELP THE PARENTS TO GET RELIEVED FROM WORRIES OF LATE MARRIAGES & INTER CAST / INTER RELIGION MARRIAGES. LIKE WISE WOULD HELP THE MARRIED COUPLES TO BE FREE FROM AGONY AND TYRANNY OF BEING ISOLATED FROM THE FAMILY AND THE COMMUNITY.


THIS WAY INTER CAST MARRIAGES CAN BE AVOIDED AND A HEALTHY BRAHMIN SOCIETY CAN BE SUSTAINED.


Hope I am not offending any elders here….


Cheers…

RAVI




 
This I have been emphasizing for the past 25 years, not to avoid inter-caste marriages, because they weren't a big threat then, but to foster better unity amongst all sections of the Brahmin community as a whole.

Yaarum kettal thaane?
 
I am at loss to understand the significance of the thread topic.

(It is only aracha maavu….But the initiator of the topic has admitted that, and probably seeks new inputs..)

Marriage is purely personal choice. There is no penal mechanism in our TB community to penalize somebody if he/she does not conform to or follow the age old practices and traditions , either in marriage or in day-to-day life. The community in general is liberal in its outlook. Our youths are free to marry person of their choice.There is a civil law in India permitting that.They are sitting in self made invisible cages.

Reactivating question of Sagothra marriage is at best theoretical or academic.TB community has a number of varied gothrams , and not restricted o one or two gothrams.There are also other communities in Hindu religion who follow the same gothram elimination in marriage alliance.

Feeling that another religion is comfortable is only”Akkarai Pachai”. Talking against the traditional practices followed itself could have elicited retributory reactions there. It is too obvious even in recent days that I need not quote incidents as it is not proper.Thank God we are TBs. As we have only an outside view of other religions.Each religion r community will have its own plus and minus.(Anyone who has thorough knowledge of other religion in theory and practice is welcome to present his authenticviews)

(In today’s newspaper there is report quoting Mr Anwar Ibrahim,@ former deputy prime minister of Malaysia, now on a visit to India for attending World Islamic Peace conference in Mumbai. Quote”Ther can’t be such an open forum even in most Muslim countries. It speaks well of the democratic spirit of India” )

A person can say no to anything by simply shaking his head and go on saying NO.No..
I trust this forum/site is not to eliminate the TB community, but a common platform to discus matters pertaining to (or leading to) the betterment of the community and members. That means we are ready to continue to exist as TBs. If that is agreed ,it will b our moral duty to defend our time- tested practices and not to despise them.By doing the questioning for sake of questioning we are playing the opposite role.But if anything is unsuitable ,it should be either amended or eliminated.(It can be done even on a personal level at start)

Other religions are not originated in India. But Hinduism and,TBs as one of the sub communities in that , belong to this great Bhaarata. At present due to migration,Hindus are all over the world, marriage takes place between people spread across and with people staying in India. So it is not a wonder that this happens in other religions.

In today’s apartment life next door neighbour may be anybody , and not necessarily
A sagotra TB.So if everything is Ok is that only choice?

Now ,the pertinent point.Are we so microscopic numbered that Sagotra marriage should take place. (Elsewhere in this site, under another thread a discussion has emerged on consanguineous marriage).
If our number is so pitiable then, we have to discuss ways to increase our numbers A thread started on that has somehow got stuck., and it may be revived to continue discussion.

Instead of straightaway going to marry NB s why can’t we think of marriage with other Brahmins? Except for language and a few “loukeeka” practices, other basic mantras and rituals will be similar.

Before concluding let me again quote from Mr Anwar Ibrahim from newspapers

Quote ‘ “ People worry about young Muslims abandoning tradition but that does not bother me. The youth will evolve new traditions. I want to address the key issues of justice and gender equality” said the father of six children ‘ Unquote (highlight mine).

I hope our community and youth get a hint here.


Greetings.
@ Link for above quoted news
?Indians are tolerant and accepting?- Hindustan Times
 
I have living example of both types in my extended family circles.A successful sagothra wedding of a cousin of mine in 1982 and he successfully celebrated his 25th wedding anniversary with his daughter in London.Three have been two cases of relationship weddings(like athai.mama etc) where the children born have various problems.The sagotraa was a love affair and the others were arranged ones.It is difficult to generalise.I agree with Mr Kunjuppu's views posted earlier on this subject
 
Sri Suryakasyapa ji,

I agree with the saying that - "IKKARAI KI AKKARAI PACHCHAI"

I have not stated that Islam is better than Hindu Brahmin Community...We all know that every Religion has its one plus and minus.

I have only highlighted as how easy the marriages are in Muslim Community.

I am in U.A.E for the last 2 years and have lots of friends and known people who all are Muslims from different nationals.

It is true that Sunna muslims have 4 sub categories...But this 4 categories are no way hindrance to a marriage proposal...In fact no such belief exists where each sub category community should marry only with-in the same sub category.

As the topic under discussion is revolving around saga-gothram marriages, the example of Islam marriages that I have indicated has nothing to do with any other sort of comparations. But pertaining to marriage only.

I agree that even Muslims youths are deviating from the principles of their religion. Again this point has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

All the discussions along with illustrations would be zeroing-in on marriage issues only.

Cheers...

RAVI
 
HI Friends,

I have heard of instances where the bride & groom happen to be of same gothram, normally boy's or girl's maternal uncle will do sweekaram. So that they will become part of a different gothram. Elders can share their personal experiences on this.

Thanks,
Sriram
 
The same took place with a distant relative of my sisters sambandhi....

There are very few parents who could consider such an arragement for the sake of timely marriage.

Such a compromise (which in my openion would not be un-acceptable scientifically and logically. Perhaps might be traditionally) would not only help timely marriage but a perfect match between a girl and a boy in terms of all their expectations.

My point is-

1) When in 95% cases horoscopes are matched with great efforts and a marriage is concluded why saga-gothram alone be a hindrance?

2) Why to exclude a suitable horoscope due to saga-gothram criteria that may lead to the rejection of a best match in all the aspects?

3) Why this is still a stigma in the community when adjustments can be made by way of Sweekaram

4) When we could accept lots of exceptions in our nithya karma, why not for the sake of marriage.

5) Why the society as a whole is still hanging back from considering saga-gothram marriage as a normal acceptance.

Let us hope the best for our wellbeing...


Cheers...

RAVI
 
Namaskaram Ravi,
I am yet to understand why you are still advocating saha-gothram marriages after such a long and vivid discussions put forth by others. Personally I feel arranged marriages between athai's son and mama's daughter will lead to strong bondage between two families and the misunderstandings between two sammandhi families, if at all crops up, can be ruled out easily.
Further, the bride and bridegroom in such marriages are born to two different combination of `gothras' where the bride's father and mother will be of different gothrams and that of bridegroom's father and mother will be different gothrams. Effectively, three different gothrams might have come into play in the birth of the bride and as well as the bridegroom. Thus, I strongly believe the chances much pampered argument of health problems creeping up in such marriages, will be much less as our forefathers have classified the gothrams on genes.
Further, I do believe that the male semen play crucial role in determining the gene of a child.
thanks
vvs
 
Dear vvs Ji,

Sorry. 'Semen' is not the sole determinant of a gene. Both the father and the mother EQUALLY pass on their chromosomes to their offsprings. The only difference between a son and a daughter is that the former gets a Y chromosome from dad and the daughter gets a X chromosome from mom. They both get X chromosomes from their mom.

The first cousin and the uncle/niece marriages will definitely lead to more probabilities of genetic problems with the offsprings as these are called consanguineous marriages. By the way, the sagothra marriage, if the people are not closely related, will be better than the first cousin marriages, from the genetic point of view. Please refer to the ongoing discussions under the thread called "Is Love Marriage Acceptance" under the "Philosophy and Traditions" Forum.

Regards,
KRS


vvs said:
Namaskaram Ravi,
I am yet to understand why you are still advocating saha-gothram marriages after such a long and vivid discussions put forth by others. Personally I feel arranged marriages between athai's son and mama's daughter will lead to strong bondage between two families and the misunderstandings between two sammandhi families, if at all crops up, can be ruled out easily.
Further, the bride and bridegroom in such marriages are born to two different combination of `gothras' where the bride's father and mother will be of different gothrams and that of bridegroom's father and mother will be different gothrams. Effectively, three different gothrams might have come into play in the birth of the bride and as well as the bridegroom. Thus, I strongly believe the chances much pampered argument of health problems creeping up in such marriages, will be much less as our forefathers have classified the gothrams on genes.
Further, I do believe that the male semen play crucial role in determining the gene of a child.
thanks
vvs
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
My thoughts for tuppence.... I know and have been told that sagothra weddings are to be avoided at all costs..I would say better that than marrying someone who is not a Tam Bram. I know we have had a few threads relating to all this (intercaste marriages and the like), but I still feel that when marriages within the family is accepted, why not this. I have examples of both in my family and to be honest both the couples are quite happy..the sagothra wedding was a love marriage and the other one arranged.
I think the goal has to be to encourage the youngsters in our community to marry within the community...Though I am not totally against inter caste marriages, I strongly feel that given our dwindling numbers, it should be avoided.

Sorry if I have hurt any one's feelings here....

Mythili
 
Sri VVS ji,

I am still advocating saga-gothram marriages because of the same valid points that Sri KRS ji has narrated-
------------------
"By the way, the sagothra marriage, if the people are not closely related, will be better than the first cousin marriages, from the genetic point of view."
------------------

I am not of the opinion that the society should specifically opt for saga-gothram marriages only. My claim is that the society should not carry the stigma of saga-gothram marriage denial and cut the scope of better alliance at the right time.

When I could see many aged boys and girls still unmarried and counting their days for marriage. It remains a day dream for them. I could come to know that the reason behind delays are due to some of the following -

1) Unsatisfied Horoscope Matching - ACCEPTABLE
2) Expectations of Girls or Boys or their family - ACCEPTABLE IN TERMS OF BOYS & GIRLS
3) And in many cases they have to ignore a better and comfortable horoscope / alliance on knowing the GOTHRAM (found to be of same gothram)

Only the boys and girls who are over due for the marriage can feel the acute problems and agony.

If the society gets rid of this stigma and accept the change unanimously only than I feel every parents would accept this point with out hesitations.

Cheers..


RAVI
 
C RAVI said:

I am not of the opinion that the society should specifically opt for saga-gothram marriages only. My claim is that the society should not carry the stigma of saga-gothram marriage denial and cut the scope of better alliance at the right time.
Click to expand...


Shri Ravi Ji,

Am being very highly speculative, but from your posts, am wondering maybe you like some girl who is the same gothra as yours and cannot marry her due to social stigma ...(please forgive me in case its not true, i just mentioned it because it just came to my mind)..

Just in case a girl is the gothram as yours, one way to handle it wud be to ask some couple among your relatives (from whom you can receive a murai girl in marriage) to adopt her (then her gothram changes to that of her adoptive parents). Then you can marry her.

But for this to happen, everyone involved must be comfortable with such an idea.

Hope you will settle into married bliss soon.

Best wishes.
 
Dear Ms.Iyerponnu

I am happy to find positive response form you and Mrs.Happyhindu ji to this topic as female members.

I appreciate your clear expressions...

I am repeatedly insisting and requesting our society to consider the change owing to the present scenario of inter-cast marriages [diminishing the society’s population] due to the present scope of social interactions, as this portal has offered me the platform to express my social botherations openly. As well of other members who all are liking to have a practical approach to the life of we Tamil Brahmins during this need of the hour.


Cheers...

RAVI
 
Dear Ravi,

Since you are so insistent and harping on Sagothram marriages repeatedly, I too had a doubt if you are already in love with a girl of your own gothra. Probably, because of the social restrictions on sagothram marriages, I think you are seeking a solution to your problem through this forum.

If I am wrong, please excuse me. But if that be the case really, you have to argue the case yourself with the people concerned.

The forum members cannot act as your advocates.
 
Shri HappyHindu ji,


I am no way offended by your guess and need not to forgive some one like you who has a practical and progressive mind set.

My botherations are purely social and not personal. I have a tendency to fight for a cause when I could see that the society has some sort of lacking leading to acute problems [ Whether I am suffering or not ]. I consider that every one's life is short and in this short life every one has a dream. Every girl and boy wants to have a married life at the right age when he or she can feel that he/she is leading a meaningful life enjoying every moment of it. Late marriages would leave to many physical and psychological complications that are much serious than accepting saga-gothram marriages.

Please be noted that relatives are from among our society only who all are carrying this Stigma and hesitant to accept anything for the fear - ABACHAROAN, ABACHAROAN, ENNA KAALAM IDHU, INDHA KAALA PASANGA ROMBA KETTU POYITAANGA, PERYAVAALAI MADHIKARTHE ILLAI. SAMUDHAYAM ENNA SOLLUM. ENNAI VIDU PAA, YEN MAANATHAI VAANGATHEY.

"VEETUKKU VEEDU VAASAPADI"

Cheers...

RAVI
 
Shri Pannvalan ji,

Please be noted that I am not expecting Forum Members to act as I advocate...

I am standing on my points and just exchanging comments among fellow members purely for the social cause. I think this prompts some of you to think that I am trying to achive my personal goals. If I am in love with a same gothram Brahmin girl I can declare openly and seek advices from esteemed members. I need not to hide the fact and twist my expressions ]

I had my perception that this forum gives liberty to every one to express their views freely [off course without hurting any one].

Even if the feedback / arguments that I receive for my view points are against my own, I never take it in wrong spirit and never get disappointed...Rather I enjoy such controversies in views that broadens our understanding.

If you feel that I am crossing my limits and wrong anywhere please excuse me.

If my repeated comments are making you to think in a negative way than I shall stop posting any of my comments on this thread further.


EXCUSE ME ONCE AGAIN TO TAKE THINGS FOR GRANTED.

Cheers..

RAVI
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest ads

Follow us on Social Media

Back
Top