Same gothrams (of same rishis) found both in Iyer and Iyengar then why is there a difference?

[Padmanabhan Janakiraman]

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Same gothrams (of same rishis) found both in Iyer and Iyengar then why is there a difference?




To know the reason for this you should know the order of developement of sampradayas.


We can say it as culture in other words. Man was uncultured in the stone age, day by day he became cultured by learning something and adding it as a cultural development to his community. In this order, Rishis are the oldest. Their followers lived in several places! At that time there were no separations except gotras according to the rishis. Then they have moved to several places for several purposes! There they have advanced their culture with some new customs. Their followers had a difference of opinion in the matter of worshiping God.


Three major 'tatvas' were announced by three great Acharyas called "Ramanujar", "Sankaracharyar" and "Madhvachariyar".


People who followed the I one are called as "Sri Vaishnavites" or "Iyengars" their philosophy is known as : "Visishtadhvaidham" People who followed the II one are called "Smarthas" or "Iyers" and their Philosophy is known as "Adhvaidham". The III one's followers are called as "Madhwas" and their philosophy is : "Dhvaidam" Due to the difference of philosophy, the worshipping of main god also changed and the method of worship also changed.


The sects like "Vada Kalai - Then Kalai" in Iyegars and "Vadamal, Vathimal, Brahacharanam, Ashtasahasram" in iyers are the later development. Due to the affection with their own community, they have developed different cultures among them and stopped sharing relations between them.

Please add your views, thanks.

Source; braminset.

This post is for sharing knowledge only, no intention to violate any copyrights.

 

[OKO]

The order of the acharyas are: Shankaracharya, Ramanujacharya and Madhavacharya.

Before Ramanujacharya, the "Brahmanas" were not codified based on who they follow and there was a great deal of leeway in terms of ishta devta (of course kula deivam is always central even back then). The order of the TB's were based on migration. The Vathimas and Ashtasahrams were the "local" TB's and then came the Brihacharanams and finally the Vadamas. Now, an interesting thing to note is that the vathimas and ashtasahasrams are mainly shaivites (including the majority of the brihcharanams, but they have to worship vishnu per tradition) and then you have the vadamas who lean more towards vaishnavite traditions. Post-Shankaracharya the vadamas and some brihcharanams become followers of Smarta tradition which is not being followed by most "iyers".

Now, Ramanujacharya is a vadama who studied the Smarta tradition and then formulated his own theory based on the various texts and revived the Pancharaatra agama tradition. Ramunjacharya believed that the traditional structure amongst the aforementioned Brahmanas was restrictive and took in disciples from different varnas as his students and called them "Sri Vaishnavas". The non-brahmin students (thenkalai) of his who learned "took on" the gothrams of their guru (not Ramanucharya alone but also other people in his ashrams who were brahmnas and had xyz gothrams). Now, the vadakalai's are nothing but the vadama brahmans, and therefore as brahmnas they already have their respective gothrams which would obviously be similar to a lot of the gothrams the "iyers" have.

I do not have much knowledge about the Madhavas and may not be the best to answer that.

 

[shankarkrupa]

Now, an interesting thing to note is that the vathimas and ashtasahasrams are mainly shaivites (including the majority of the brihcharanams, but they have to worship vishnu per tradition) and then you have the vadamas who lean more towards vaishnavite traditions

Interesting! Is any source or citation reference for this? I recollect perumal temple in a few vathima village agraharams, and a Shiva temple facing streets in a vadamal agraharam. Perhaps the houses were sold but information source will help to identify the timeline when the shiva/vishnu practice was prevalent.

 

[OKO]

Interesting! Is any source or citation reference for this? I recollect perumal temple in a few vathima village agraharams, and a Shiva temple facing streets in a vadamal agraharam. Perhaps the houses were sold but information source will help to identify the timeline when the shiva/vishnu practice was prevalent.

Very much plausible. All brahmins before the assimalation of factions were quite liberal and open minded, a mindset that is very prevalent amongst the iyers as a result of taking on advaita vedanta as their sampradayam. When I say that vathimas are shaivites and vadamas are vaishnavites I mean in terms of where they lean. My understanding comes from internet searches + talking to people et cetera.

A good starting point could be the following as it is a compilation of various sources:

1. https://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2018/06/vadama-brahmins.html
2. https://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html
3. https://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2023/08/the-and-sub-groups-iyers-compiled-by-p.html
4. https://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2018/06/ashta-sahasram-brahmins.html

Please do update on the thread if you are able to establish an accurate timeline!

 

[prasad1]

In Rigvedic terms, gotra simply means "forward-moving descendants". (गौः) गमन means forward moving and (त्र stands for Offspring. The specific meaning "family, lineage kin" (as it were "herd within an enclosure") is relatively more recent, first recorded around the mid-1st millennium BCE (e.g., Chandogya Upanishad).

Gotra: sons and disciples of a sage would have the same gotra; it is believed that they possess similar thoughts and philosophies. People of the same gotra can be found across different castes.
In that definition, it is like an Alumni of a University. There is no lineage associated with gothra.

Post in thread 'Sagotram wedding- intention to have a full Tamil Brahmin wedding ceremony.'

May 2, 2024

I fully agree with you. Because some teachers tell like that to a student. Now you are a scholar so guide me to the subject line number in your link.

Those links have been archived. That is why I deleted my post.

In Rigvedic terms, gotra simply means "forward-moving descendants". (गौः) गमन means forward moving and (त्र stands for Offspring. The specific meaning "family, lineage kin" (as it were "herd within an enclosure") is relatively more recent, first recorded around the mid-1st millennium BCE (e.g., Chandogya Upanishad).

Gotra: sons and disciples of a sage would have the...

• prasad1

• 

The Sangam literature is not as ancient as the vedas or braahmanas (a portion of vedas themselves). Experts date the sangam literature to the early christian era or one or two centuries before Christ. Shri Vaiyapuri Pillai has dated some of these to somewhat later times as well. Hence, as seen already, these sangam literatures must be coeval with the merging of the vasudeva, bhagavata and vishnu cults during the Gupta empire's times. It is for informed readers, therefore, to decide how far these sangam literature references give any antiquity to the Vaishnava cult.

Post in thread 'Can you place Amman's garland at your home pooja photos?'

Jun 21, 2015

Now post #2:

As we are discussing things with reference to Tamil Brahmins' belief systems, it is worth looking at evidences which determine the antiquity of Vaishnavam in the Tamil country.

Tholkaappiyam is considered the most ancient literary work available in Tamil.

"மாயோன் மேய காடுறை உலகமும்" -- தொல். பொருள்.அகத்திணை- 5

"மாயோன் மேய மன்பெருஞ்சிறப்பிற்
றாவா விழுப்புகழ் பூவை நிலையும் -- தொல். பொருள். புறத்திணை-5.

These two references indicate the existence of Vishnu worship in the days of Tholkaappiyam.

கடல்வளர் புரிவளை புரையு மேனி
யடல்வெந் நாஞ்சிற் பனைக்கொடியோனுக்

மண்ணுறு...

• sangom

Iyengars are an ofshoot of the Iyers. But Iyer didn't originally mean Smartha Brahmana. Iyer originally just denoted people of the highest jati (subcaste) of the Brahmana varna (caste). Then after the time of Adi Shankaracharya the Smartha philosophy became popular among Iyers. (Smarthas technically worship five gods whom they believe are manifestations of Ishvara, but in practical terms they're often called Shaivite, both because Ishvara is usually considered to be synonymous with Shiva and because Shiva is the god that they typically worship more than the other four. Also note that Smartha originally meant "follower of Smriti", and in that sense pretty much all Hindus in the Kali Yuga are Smartha, but I'm using it in the modern sense of the Smartha philosophy of Adi Shankaracharya.) And then after the time of Ramanujacharya, Iyers who converted to his Sri Vaishnava philosophy started calling themselves Iyengar. And so since pretty much all the Vaishnava Iyers (other than non-Visitadvaita Vaishnavas) were calling themselves Iyengars, the ones that still called themselves Iyers were the Smartha Iyers, so the term "Iyer" eventually became synonymous with "Smartha Brahmanas of the highest subcaste", which is the current meaning of the word.


Smartas believe that the worshipper is free to choose a particular aspect of God to worship. By contrast, a Vaishnavite considers Vishnu or Krishna to be the true God who is worthy of worship and other forms as his subordinates. Accordingly, Vaishnavites, for example, believe that only Vishnu or Krishna can grant the ultimate salvation for mankind, moksha. Similarly, many Shaivites also hold similar beliefs about Shiva. Notably, many Shaivites believe that Shakti is worshipped to reach Shiva, whom for Shaktas is the impersonal Absolute. In Shaktism, emphasis is given to the feminine manifest through which the male unmanifested, Lord Shiva, is realized.
Smartas, like many Shaivites and Vaishnavites, consider Surya to be an aspect of God. Many Shaivites and Vaishnavites, for example, differ from Smartas, in that they regard Surya as an aspect of Shiva and Vishnu, respectively. For example, the sun is called Surya Narayana by Vaishnavites. In Saivite theology, the sun is said to be one of eight forms of Shiva, the Astamurti. Additionally, Ganesh and Skanda, for many Shaivites, would be aspects of Shakti and Shiva, respectively.

http://www.thefullwiki.org/Smarthas


Ramanuja was not the head honcho in Iyer community so he created his own Iyengar community.
Just like Guru Nanak Sahib, did not like some aspects of Hinduism and created Sikhism.

This is my own flight of fancy with borrowed wings. LOL like other fancies.

Just to balance the fancies being expounded as theories and histories.
By I do not understand this fight among followers of different sects, none of us really know GOD.

Post in thread 'Can you place Amman's garland at your home pooja photos?'

Jun 20, 2015

Iyengars are an ofshoot of the Iyers. But Iyer didn't originally mean Smartha Brahmana. Iyer originally just denoted people of the highest jati (subcaste) of the Brahmana varna (caste). Then after the time of Adi Shankaracharya the Smartha philosophy became popular among Iyers. (Smarthas technically worship five gods whom they believe are manifestations of Ishvara, but in practical terms they're often called Shaivite, both because Ishvara is usually considered to be synonymous with Shiva and because Shiva is the god that they typically worship more than the other four...

• prasad1