Save our temples.

[suba42]

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Why should Government administer Hindu Temples?

The Tamil Nadu (Madras) Government created a department called the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Department (HR&CE) in 1951 out of the Hindu Religious Endowments Board, which was functioning from 1927. Why should a secular government seriously involve itself with the religious institutions of Hindus, is a question Hindus have failed to ask the Government and the Courts for the past three generations! In fact, why is Government managing only Hindu religious institutions is a question that should also concern us. The answer as we shall see is simple: money, property and resources coupled with ignorance and indifference of Hindus. Successive Governments have deliberately exploited and neglected at will the vast resources of Hindu religious institutions. Properties and resources of other religious institutions though substantial are much less by comparison.

What we Hindu citizens forget or are not even aware is that there are no special religious rights or privileges for the so-called minorities. All citizens in India are guaranteed the same religious rights. However, only Hindu religious institutions are subjected to total government control. The following chart would illustrate how Governments target only Hindu religious institutions.


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Religious Institutions [/TD]
[TD]Hindu[/TD]
[TD]Muslim[/TD]
[TD]Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1. Scope of Religious Endowments Acts Like Tamil Nadu Act of 1959 and A.P. Act of 1987[/TD]
[TD]All Institutions including Temples, Mutts and Endowments[/TD]
[TD]Only Trusts and Endowments. Places of worship i.e. Mosques are not included.[/TD]
[TD]No Acts or legislations to regulate or control Christian Institutions or Trusts[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. Executive Officer[/TD]
[TD]Appointed by the Commissioner who is a Servant of the Government[/TD]
[TD]Appointed by non-Government Wakf Board[/TD]
[TD]No such appointments[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3. Status of Executive Officer[/TD]
[TD]Government Servant[/TD]
[TD]Non-Government Person alone can be appointed[/TD]
[TD]No such appointments[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4. Powers under the Acts[/TD]
[TD]General Superintendence and control of Temples, Mutts, endowments and their properties.[/TD]
[TD]Can Supervise only Wakf properties[/TD]
[TD]None[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5. Religious Matters[/TD]
[TD]High level of interference in Hindu religious matters including daily poojas[/TD]
[TD]Interference in religious matters specifically prohibited[/TD]
[TD]None[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The claim of these State Governments is that they have taken the administration of temples and endowments in their hands only to ‘safeguard’ their properties and to ‘ensure’ that the income from the vast properties is properly realied and spent for the primary purposes for which the temples were established or exist and for purposes the endowments were created.

Nothing could be farther from truth.

To illustrate,, the landed properties of temples, mutts and the related endowments in Tamil Nadu alone, include 4,78,545 acres of land; 22,599 buildings , and 33,627 vacant sites. The vacant sites are 29 Crore square feet in area.

For this vast and valuable property the HR & CE Department claims to have demanded a paltry rent of `Rs.304 Crores and collected a paltry Rs.36 crores! For the land under irrigation, the Government charges a yearly rent of just Rs.3,300 per acre and actually collects Rs.265! In today’s market rates potential rent from these properties are would not be not less than Rs.10,000 Crores per annum. Even if we assume that they are rented out at half their market value these properties should fetch a billion dollars annually. Year after year the loss to Hindu temples and endowments is more than Rs. 5,000 crores due to Government’s mismanagement and corruption. Since 1976, there has been no external audit of temples and endowments accounts. Internal audits, have made several observations of serious lapses, yet no action is taken since the Chief Audit Officer is under the control of the Commissioner HR & CE.


Destruction of our Temples’ antiquity:
Besides not realising the true income of temple properties, Government officials in HR & CE Department have caused irreparable damage to Hindu religious, cultural and heritage sites of Tamil Nadu - about 400 of them are more than 1500 years old - by completely commercializing the temples with shops and modern offices, laying polished granites and tiles in the temples, building new and incongruous structures inside the temples, sand blasting inscriptions and murals, allowing buildings to come up near the temples, etc. These are unpardonable crimes against not only our holy places and archaeological treasures but also against our heritage and culture.

Interference in Religious Matters:

By law, every temple is to be managed by Trustees, many of them hereditary whose families have been safeguarding and preserving the temple for centuries. However the Government by devious means have bypassed the Trustees and made them subordinate to the Executive Officer(E.O). It is incidental that the EOs, by law, are supposed to ‘supervise and manage temple properties’ only for a short temporary period. By the complete control in appointing Trustees, , Government has ensured that it has full control over all affairs of the temple including daily poojas, rituals and annual festivals. The right to plan and worship as per traditions and tenets of the temples are taken away from the Hindu communities. The Government interferences go down to the extent of deciding how many bananas and coconuts can be offered to the deity at what time of the day and at what cost. Besides, the Governments also decides on which day the consecrations of the temples should take place, at which spot the yagnas can happen, in which language archanas can take place, etc.

There is a Joint Commissioner in the Department whose job is to sanction balalayams, installation of idols, Kumbhabishekam dates and so on. These are completely against the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Indian Constitution to all citizens of India including Hindus. Needless to say the Government officials do not have the knowledge, qualifications, experience or understanding of the religious practices – they are in most cases persons with law graduates who can browbeat even the most ardent trustee or devotee.

The government Executive Officers’ interferences in the religious matters, customs and traditions of the holiest of Vaishanava temples, Srirangam Sri Ranganathaswamy temple and in the holiest of Sri Murugan temples, Tiruchendur are innumerable.

Quit Temples:

The Government mismanages temple properties. They have failed to protect the properties and have failed to realise the income from the properties. They have commercialized the temples and have failed to protect and preserve their antiquity and heritage. They have failed to safeguard the valuable jewels and icons belonging to temples. They have deliberately desecrated the temple premises and corrupted the rituals, traditions and worship. It is high time Hindus retrieve their temples from the clutches of corrupt, inefficient Governments and restore them to their rightful grandeur and tradition. We owe it to posterity, that we preserve for the coming generations, the richness of our religion and culture that has come down to us over many centuries.

Temple Worshippers Society:

A few concerned Swamijis, individuals, professionals, Judges, Lawyers and Civil Servants have come together to spread awareness of the unfair treatment meted to Hindu religion and to legally take up issues with the Government. Hopefully, very soon our temples would be free from Government control and exploitation. Under their guidance we have formed “Temple Worshipers Society” (TWS) as a registered body under the TN Societies Act last year and have already started to make our presence felt.

TWS has now filed a Writ Petition in the Madras High Court against the HR & CE Department’s failure in providing basic and mandatory information under the Right to Information Act. TWS has also served notices to the Tamil Nadu Government and the HR & CE Department for improper alienation of valuable properties belonging to temples and endowments. TWS

Government has effectively hijacked the ownership and running of temples from the hands of Hindus. It is robbing Hindu Temples and endowments in Tamil Nadu of crores of Rupees every year. It is destroying our ancient temple structures and has scant respect for the protection of our sacred idols, icons, statuary, murals and inscriptions.

In Eangoimalai temple, an ancient Siva Temple near Tiruchirapalli and a Tevara sthalam, the main deity – an Emerald Sivalingam - was stolen. The value and significance of this sacred Sivalingam is beyond ordinary reckoning. The commercial value of an emerald object of that size is said be around Rs.2,000 – 3,000 crores. The Tamil Nadu Government and the HR & CE Department has done nothing to recover the deity. Law enforcers in the US and other countries have seized scores of antique icons and statues stolen from our temples and smuggled out of India. The HR & CE department has not shown any true interest in recovering these idols and getting them back to our temples.

TWS is embarking on a big legal battle to throw the HR & CE Department and the Government out of our temples in Tamil Nadu. It is not going to be an easy or quick battle given the tendency of Courts, particularly Madras High Court to side with the Government when issues are raised regarding temples and their administration. Considering the seriousness of the matter and the questions of law involving Constitutional rights and the planned discrimination meted out to Hindus by successive governments, TWS is taking this issue through a writ petition in the Supreme Court of India.

TWS will engage Senior Counsels who are well versed in Constitutional Law. TWS would also continue to wage smaller battles against specific atrocities of the HR & CE Department in Tamil Nadu courts whenever necessary and to recover some of the important properties of temples. There are hundreds of not well-known temples whose properties have been systematically alienated or criminally encroached. TWS would be fighting against these temple looters in various Courts – Civil and Criminal – besides fighting the main war in the Supreme Court.


Temple Worshippers Society – Writ Petition in the Hon’ble Supreme Court of India – against the T.N. HR & CE Act, 1959 and against the mismanagement of temples and interference in religious matters by the HR & CE Department and the Tamil Nadu Government and other related cases to be filed in Tamil Nadu.

Expense Budget for the first year:

1. Office rent, electricity, etc. Rs.15,000.00 p.m. = 180,000.00

2. Telephone, mobile and Internet Rs.7500.00 p.m. = 90,000.00

3. Trial Court and High Court advocate fees for drafting, filing writ petitions and Criminal cases against HR & CE
and Government Officials for Criminal interferences in religious matters and for Criminal dereliction of duties and recovery of properties of temples and Endowments in the Madras High Court and Local Courts–
(About 15 Writ Petitions and 30-40 Cases) = 15,00,000.00

4. Senior Lawyer fees in Supreme Court for the first year (3 to 4 Senior Counsels) = 15,00,000.00

6. Stationery, Postage, Courier, Right to Information applications, getting RTI documents audit reports, etc
@ Rs.15,000.00 p.m. = 180,000.00

7. Travel - to Delhi 9 times a year @ Rs.30,000.00 per trip = 3,60,000.00

8. Other travel – Rs. 5000.00 p.m. = 60,000.00

9. Fees for Advocate-on-Record, Supreme
Court expenses for filing, Translations etc. = 200,000.00

10. Miscellaneous expenses and Office Assistant salary = 1,50,000.00


11. Legal Books, Research works & materials = 2,00,000.00

12. Media Expenses = 2,40,000.00

Total = Rs. 46,60,000.00

Computer and Printer are already available with TWS. Hence Not budgeted.

Payment can be directly made into TWS Bank Account.

The details are:

Name of Account: Temple Worshippers Society

Account No. 6021203312

Name of the Bank : Indian Bank

Name and place of the Branch - Thousand Lights. Chennai - 600 006.

IFSCode - - IDIB000T020

This IFS Code will ensure direct remittance to the Branch.

We request all temple worshiping Hindus, Hindu Organizations and Pujya Acharyas to support and contribute to this important and urgent cause.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Suba42

As the founder-member of a Committee and involved since 1977 in the renovation and upkeep of a very
ancient Temple, and having been on the 'wrong' side of the authorities frequently, I wholeheartedly appreciate
your post and am indeed glad that finally a TWS has been constituted. I really wasn't aware of this development.

I fully agree with the view that the HR & CE Act should be repealed and that the Hindu places of worship,and all the
connected assets should be handed over exclusively to Governing Hindu Bodies.

I fully support the cause and will do whatever little I can. There has to be beginning somewhere and I think we
are in the right direction.

Kudos

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Please see this thread.

Post #48, #49, #50, #54, #55, #56 and the discussions in general.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/temples-pilgrimage/6039-temples-temples-temples-5.html

We should understand the evolution of HRCE and also the experience of other states where HRCE does not exist.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

We have to save out temples from the Greed and Avarice of the people who administer them. But as the saying goes "Power corrupts. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely."

By changing the people who administer the temples we can not ensure that they would be run well. HRCE is not a creation of the DMK. It was set up based on the recommendations of a committee consisting of devout Hindus.

 

[suraju06]

Some thought and ideas:

1. The attempt to file suits, use RTI Act to gather info about the assets belonging to temples, trying to abolish the HR&CE Department from the management etc are goals which aim at only the top end of the task. Rather it reveals A tearing hurry to turn things upside down. What have we done to organize Hindus at the village level as worshippers? Is there a democratic structure in which the worshippers have been organised? Or is it presumed that once the properties have been released from the Government's grip automatically these worshippers will be attracted like iron to a magnet and fall in place in an organized structure?

2. It is a top down approach which will be viewed by the community with suspicion. Moreover do we have every community in the Hindu society on our side when we fight the Government?

3. It would have been better if village level worshippers were organized into a democratic organization side by side with the filing of suits etc., so that credibility of purpose becomes clear to the ordinary man. Christianity has such Laity councils in every parish and we can take a leaf from them and learn valuable lessons in organizing people. Ultimately when the Supreme Court decides to restore the temples to the Hindus, there will be a well laid out democratic and transparent structure to manage the assets with minimum complaints.

4. We do not have this kind of a laity council even in smaller manageable religious matoms scenario. Thus we had the misfortune of seeing a religious head going to a civil court with his Dandam and kamandalam and standing in the witness box defending his rights as the owner of a property which a local politician was trying to grab.

Hope the organizers take this into account. In the absence of this kind of grass root level inclusiveness, the efforts at the SC level will remain just what they are - snobbish.

I am qualified to speak about this. I have organized people in my village to renovate a temple, did it without any help from the HR & CE (the temple is owned by them) even though the temple has got properties. I had to go to HR & CE only to get the permission to carry out the renovation work.


Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

HRCE, if i remember right, was started by the Justice Party govt of 1920s, and encouraged and supported by Rajaji. the aim is to ensure that ancient but poorer temples, also get a share of the wealth of the rich temples and are maintained. and also money for admin and the priests.

our temples have always been target of greed, right from their inception, over the ages. nothing new there.

any movement, with an avowed agenda like that proposed by suba42, has got to prove its bonafide, ie, it is not the hidden agenda of vested interest or social organizations ie RSS, BJP, Bajrang Dal. if that be so, it means, we are replacing one set of people with another, and nothing more.

if you really ask HRCE they will list their achievements. it is upto the public, to verify and validate those claims, and institute perhaps, an ombudsman to heed and succor those complaints. but then accountability and honesty, is a countrywide malaise.

there is however, no reason to believe, that the admin of the temples have worsened this past century. or for that matter, bettered.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Kunjuppu,

if you really ask HRCE they will list their achievements. it is upto the public, to verify and validate those claims, and institute perhaps, an ombudsman to heed and succor those complaints. but then accountability and honesty, is a countrywide malaise.

They can list these achievements:

1. Alienating Trust and temple properties to powerful vested political interests.

2. Not paying salaries to the temple pujaris for months together.

3. Not conducting utsavs and other festivals in the temple as per the agamas.

4. Spending all the receipts in paying salaries and DA to the ever bloating ranks of EOs, Commissioners, clerks and peons of HR &CE Board.

5. Appointing atheists as Trustees and Thakkars of temples just because they are political heavy weights.

Some achievement indeed.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The British under normal circumstances kept the Sovereign promises. They took over the some of the duties and obligations of the Kings. The Government of India also did the same under the agreement with the Kings. For example The Travancore Government paid a pension to the Kings of the small states which Marthanda Varma conquered in 1740. One of these pensioners the Raja of Thekkenad was receiving an annual pension of a princely sum of Rs. 27/50 till the privy purse was abolished. The English government continued to pay the pensioners of Burma. It was in pound sterling. My father got his pension till his death.

So the British continued to make Endowments to the temples in the territories which they had annexed.

From very early on, local governments began to take notice of and oversee the endowments received by the institutions. Reddy discusses the existence of a separated Religious Endowment Department in 15th century Andhra Desa, which supervised the functioning of religious institutions and maintained copies of original grants; similar arrangements were also made in other Hindu Kingdoms.”


Central Endowment Regulations (1810-1920)—regulations in which British took control over charitable and religious trusts to prevent people “reaping lucrative financial benefits through the mismanagement of an endowment’s funds”; regulations were done state by state, beginning with Bombay.


in these, “the states’ Boards of Revenue (BOR) acquired ultimate responsibility for the regulation of endowments.” As well as provide for “repairs and maintenance of buildings, appoint trustees for non-hereditary temples, supervise trustees of hereditary temples, and ensure that the endowments were not used for any private purpose.”


British continued regulation until 1830’s, “when religious groups in England began to protest their government’s involvement in non-Christian institutions.” Which also included “payments to temples whose endowments had lapsed”, “In 1843, the British government began its withdrawal from endowment regulation; all regulation was given over to local rajas, panchayats, newly-formed committees, or existing temple priests and trustees. This withdrawal produced a vacuum of authority in endowment regulation, producing mismanagement on a scale rivaling, and possibly surpassing, that of any period. The British severed all ties between the BOR and endowment regulation in the Religious Endowment Act of 1863 (Act XX), which provided for the appointment of Local Committees to replace the BOR. These Committees exercised supervision only over those temples whose trustees were appointed; temples whose trustees were hereditary were left wholly unmanaged until 1920…The Charitable and Religious Trusts Act of 1920 (Act XIV)—passed almost 60 years later—allowed an interested party to apply to a court” to get the financial information of trusts for public use—and this Act, like all preceding ones, was only for public trusts, and “private religious endowments were still wholly unregulated”.



“The HRE Act (Madras Act II of 1927) marked the government’s first attempt to proactively address the issue of temple mis-administration. The Act’s proactivity was effected by a shift from a court-based system to an executive-based system.


Source - Baltutis, Michael C. “Recognition and Legislation of private religious endowments in Indian law”

H.R.C.E was originally an autonomous board of commissioners.Became a regular department in 1951.


The management and control of the temples and the administration of their endowments is one of the primary responsibilities of the State . A number of measures have been undertaken prior to the year 1925 for efficient control and supervision of the administration of the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments.

In the Act 1 of 1925, the Government constituted "the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Board" consisting of a President and two to four Commissioners nominated by the Government to function as a statutory body. Subsequently, Act 1 of 1925 was repealed by the Act 2 of 1927, which was followed by several modifications up to the year 1951. In order to streamline the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Board, a Special Officer (Thiru. R.V. Krishna Iyer ) was appointed in the year 1940.

The Special Officer recommended that the Government may administer the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments instead of the Board. The non-official committee appointed in the year 1942 under the Chairmanship of Thiru. P. Venkataramana Rao Naidu, a Retired Judge of High Court of Judicature, Madras recommended among other things that it would be advantageous to convert Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Board into a Government administration. Accepting the above recommendation, the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Act, 1951 was enacted provincialising the administration of the Hindu Religious Institutions. Comprehensive amendments have been made to this Act and Tamilnadu Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Act XXII of 1959 came into force with effect from 1st January 1960.



In early 1920s there was a sustained campaign by leading intellectuals of that time (mostly Brahmins) for Government intervention to stop the looting of temples by the trustees. Of course this was opposed by the Maths and other community based religious organizations.

It is worth noting that the same set of Brahmin intellectuals campaigned for the prevention of child marriages and widow re-marriage.

There have been hundreds of cases from all over India regarding temples. Many of them went upto the Supreme court.

This is the third time I am posting these facts in this forum.

But then you believe what you want to believe.

What I am not able to understand is the comparison with other religions. The Government of India is the Government of the majority of the people of India. The majority of the people are Hindus. But then if you do not have confidence in your Government or the Laws, you change the Government. That is Democracy. Spending lakhs of rupees on litigation when there are hundreds of temples which are badly in need of repair is not correct.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The trustees of the temples looted the temples for thousands of years.

The entire agricultural land in Tanjore district once belonged to the temples.

How did these lands land in the hands of people associated with the temples?

The Government servants are more accountable than any of the trustees of any trust.

The biggest scandal in recent years was the siphoning of funds from a religious trust of thousands of crores. Nothing came out of the investigation. The people and the press lost interest after some time.

 

[ShivKC]

There is a long legal battle between the dikshitars and the Government of Tamil Nadu over administration of the temple. It began with the Government permitting non-Dikshitars to sing Tevaram hymns in the sanctom sanctorum (vimanam) of the Lord, to which the dikshitars objected, claiming exclusive right to worship in the sanctum of Nataraja. The temple is now taken over by Government of Tamil Nadu under Sec 45 of the T.N. HR & CE Act. This has however been challenged by the Podu Dikshitars. The Podhu Dikshitars are a religious denomination as observed by the Madras High Court in 1951. They are entitled to carry on the administration since Article 26 of the Indian Constitution and Section 107 of the T.N.HR & CE Act prohibit government intervention in the administration of Denominations. The case is now currently (April 2010) pending before the Supreme Court of India. Podhu Dikshitars have refused to hand over any charge to the Executive Officer appointed by the HR & CE Commissioner. The Executive Officer has installed hundials (donation boxes) in this ancient temple, against the temple traditions. He also installed modern high mast lamps in this heritage site. He proposes to introduce Archana tickets and Darshan tickets. All these actions have been opposed by the Podhu Dikshitars and the devotees. However, the procedure for rituals are still managed by Dikshitars.

 

[tbs]

hi
out of all deals...ONLY DIKSHITARS OF CHIDAMBARAM WON THE BATTLE....BECAUSE THEY ALL UNITED IN TEMPLE ACTION....

its their bread and butter.....they struggled a lot.....they follow their family traditions....the govt tried many times....

like gazni to conquer to india....but failed.....

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Iniyan Sir

Your post # 8 of this thread and related posts in other threads.

True, the DK / DMK were never responsible the Govt control of Hindu Temples. The DMK was just-about
in an infant / fetus stage when the enactment was passed.

The premises where the HQ of the HR&CE is located - prime location on Nungambakkam High Rd, Chennai
was "gifted" by Sir T.Sadasiva Iyer, who was also the founder of the HR&CE itself. His statue [bust] is
situated inside the building - 1st floor, in the court room. He passed away in 1929.
Sir TS was also Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and a picture [painting] of his can be seen in the
Madras High Court, as well. He was Knighted as SIR, for his contributions that led to various amendments
in the British Legal System. He was held in high regard by the legal fraternity both in India and the UK.

Rajaji and Krishna Menon were nowhere near the horizon during his times.

I happen to be his [Sir TS's] great great grand son and have learnt a lot of 'inside dope' from family tales
handed down. As with many unsung heroes of the social reform movement, Sir TS's name too is pretty-much
lost in some archives, somewhere.

The HR&CE Act in the present form, was definitely NOT what he had envisioned. - even a casual glance as the
preamble will suffice to establish this.

But you are right - we don't want a 'frying-pan-to-the-fire' situation, considering that we may be playing into the
hands of hard-core, extremist outfits with hidden agendas.

The choice of an alternate body for upkeep/administration of Temples is going to be a tough one
- with Mutts, Mutt Heads, God-Men and Adheenams in the news for all the wrong reasons.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Thank You, Anand Manohar,

I have personal experience of two temples in North and Eastern India. One Viswanath temple at Varanasi. It was terrible when it was managed by the hereditary Pundits. The Government took it over. Not as a political stunt, but because the public wanted it. Things are much better now.

Kalighat temple in Kolkata. A really shameful place. No devotee comes out with a good feeling. Devotees are exploited and robbed. The Government has constituted a committee for running it. But things have not improved. The traditional, hereditary trustees make the place a hell. Government has pumped crores of rupees into the temple. The Communist government. But the money has gone down the drain.

Now the devotees have taken to filing suits to improve things. The high court has intervened and issued orders. But high court orders are treated like toilet paper.

Government will not intervene. The Devotees can only pray to GOD. The Devotees formed an organization about 20 years back. They were prepared to pump in Rs. 1000 crores in the year 2000 for improving the temple. But the plan never got beyond the planning stage because of the attitude of the Trustees and local people who benefit from the temple. For them it is a way of earning money. That is all.

Temples were erected for the benefit of Bhakthas. They were not erected for the Hereditary priests to earn a living. Chidambaram temple was not erected for giving the Deekshidars a mode of livelihood.

The Temples are for the Devotees.

We seem to have forgotten this basic fact.

 

[suba42]

<Message removed.
we are not affiliated with nor endorse any political parties. So lets leave the politics aside. we do not want to be seen as supporting party A or B or C. - Praveen>

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Suba42

Please read the last two paras of my post # 12.

I think the folk on the TB Forum are wise-enough to see through certain things.

Hence I request that you please refrain from any concealed propaganda / campaigning
of any type on behalf of the RSS/BJP/VHP.

This is pretty-much a neutral and non-partisan platform and I think everyone would like to
preserve things that way.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

 

[suraju06]

Dear Anand Manohar,

You said:

1.But you are right - we don't want a 'frying-pan-to-the-fire' situation, considering that we may be playing into the hands of hard-core, extremist outfits with hidden agendas.
The choice of an alternate body for upkeep/administration of Temples is going to be a tough one with Mutts, Mutt Heads, God-Men and Adheenams in the news for all the wrong reasons.

and

2.I think the folk on the TB Forum are wise-enough to see through certain things.
Hence I request that you please refrain from any concealed propaganda / campaigning
of any type on behalf of the RSS/BJP/VHP.
This is pretty-much a neutral and non-partisan platform and I think everyone would like to
preserve things that way.

While you are right in saying that we should be sure about the alternate arrangement which will be there in place of HR&CE, I think there is no need to brand and condemn organizations. What we are not able to do, they are doing that is -organizing Hindus. I think that is great service to the country and people.

There is no need to condemn RSS/BJP/VHP all in the same breath as if they are contageon. What is wrong with VHP or RSS? I am a communist and yet I dont believe in condemning just for the sake of condemnation. It won't take long for the same people and call me a commie. Think about it.

Cheers.

 

[suba42]

please do not post Political Propagandas. Your associations and affiliations are yours alone. DO NOT USE THIS FORUM TO PROMOTE A POLITICAL PARTY -Whoever that might be. The website provides a platform for brahmins but that does not mean one can use it for their political aspirations. Similar messages in future will be deleted and your account might also be suspended for failure to adhere to these warnings.

Again, NO POLITICAL PROPAGANDAS here. Get a public stage and belt it out there. Not here.

Praveen

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I wonder whether it is right to carry on a Propaganda for VHP here.

I do not think that the Common Cause for Tamil Brahmins/Hindus includes promotion of VHP or that support to VHP defines you as a Brahmin/Hindu.

The O.P did not mention VHP.

It was disguised as an effort by some intellectuals.

I would have never posted had I known that it is VHP sponsored venture.

The O.P should have specifically mentioned that this is a VHP venture.

 

[prasad1]

I agree that there should not be a propaganda for a political party in this site. I think Mr. Praveen has made that clear.
No political party has a clean chit.

 

[prasad1]

Thank you Mr. AM for the personal insight.

 

[suba42]

<removed - Praveen>

 

[suba42]

The VHP is associated with the Sangh Parivar, an umbrella of Hindu nationalist organisations which also includes the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS).

In view of this association, any posts supporting VHP can (and will) be seen as a propaganda to boost their (and their affiliated parties) political beliefs.

- Praveen

 

[suraju06]

Dear friends,

Again we have here "freedom policing". When the environment in which we all live is so much politicized, how can any one expect the members here to be apolitical in their views. And if they are not to express their views honestly what else do we expect from them? An orchestrated crescendo of ayes from jingling jalras? This tendency to object to anything bordering on politics, that too in a section which is reserved for 'controversial topics' is not fair. I stand by suba 42. Of course he could have mentioned in the OP that the effort is sponsored and has the backing of VHP. But exploiting that slip to launch a holier-than-thou, fear-of-the-unknown-driven, superlative-fairness-exhibiting attack on his post is totally unfair. If VHP organizes hindus for a certain cause, let us subject that action here in this forum to fair scrutiny and listen to pros and cons views from members and form our own conclusions. No need to gag the voice. I don't care if I too am gagged.

Cheers.

 

[praveen]

Dear friends,

Again we have here "freedom policing". When the environment in which we all live is so much politicized, how can any one expect the members here to be apolitical in their views. And if they are not to express their views honestly what else do we expect from them? An orchestrated crescendo of ayes from jingling jalras? This tendency to object to anything bordering on politics, that too in a section which is reserved for 'controversial topics' is not fair. I stand by suba 42. Of course he could have mentioned in the OP that the effort is sponsored and has the backing of VHP. But exploiting that slip to launch a holier-than-thou, fear-of-the-unknown-driven, superlative-fairness-exhibiting attack on his post is totally unfair. If VHP organizes hindus for a certain cause, let us subject that action here in this forum to fair scrutiny and listen to pros and cons views from members and form our own conclusions. No need to gag the voice. I don't care if I too am gagged.

Cheers.

All i can say to this is It is extremely difficult to please everybody, everytime. Members political association is their own personal thing. They cannot use this forum to bolster those associations or act as their mouthpiece here. This website is not associated with any political party or organization. Nor we would like to be so.

This tendency to object to anything bordering on politics, that too in a section which is reserved for 'controversial topics' is not fair.

Sensitive need not be controversial. Both are two different words!!! General discussions has the following description

"Topics unrelated to other forums. Please note many of the topics can be sensitive in nature."

It does not say controversial.

No need to gag the voice.

The voice is not gagged. But the messages FOR the party has been. Nothing stopping suba42 to post other messages that are not seen as pro-vhp.

I don't care if I too am gagged.

Trust me, if you had been gagged, you would not have been able to post anything. So just dont jump to conclusions. anything and everything is done only after due considerations.

 

[prasad1]

If the President of USA invited you to a formal party, and you claim it your right to come in your birthday suit, trust me you will not get very far.
Similarly the administrator of the site has a policy, why try to stretch the envelope. Please stay within the limit. Why make it difficult for the administrator to police the site.
You are a guest at this site, please act like one. There is no need to stage coup d'etat.